Homeopathic Medicine - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Redlemon · 10-22-2007, 05:34 AM

A lively off-shoot regarding homeopathic medicine bloomed in the How do i make my cum taste better? thread, so I thought I'd copy the salient bits over here. I'm enjoying the debate, please continue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

100% herbal formula from the website.

AKA unregulated crap that most likely does nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redlemon

I hate hearing the phrase "It's 100% natural, so there are no side effects" on those damned herbal radio ads. Hey pal, hemlock is also 100% natural - you try it first, OK?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Actually I got a bit of a education lately on that. This doesn't apply to herbal supplements but 'homeopathic' medicine.

I used to think based on context that homeopathic was a nice sounding buzzword for herbal. I was wrong. Homeopathic is just stupid (they dilute real drugs to the point that the odds of finding one molecule of the drug in the pill is less than winning the lottery, twice in a row). Its based on a very old and very bogus theory that just doesn't work, ever. But since they contain no real drugs they CAN claim to be 100% side effect free.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oFia

Not to derail the thread... but you are off on homeopathic medicine. It wasn't quite what I thought it was either.

Good source:
http://www.homeopathyusa.org/standardsofpractice/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

No, I'm not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWE1tH93G9U

Quote:

Originally Posted by oFia

Heh. Obviously a credible source. Sorry I even bothered to post my first link.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

You have absolutely no idea what and who you are talking about, plus I checked out the site and it says the same thing Randi does, only it pretends it works. It doesn't' even qualify as voodoo, sorry, its just plain assinine.

I'm glad you posted the link as it let me talk about this. I really draw the line at 'bad medicine', this shit can HURT people. I might be against silly mysticism as a rule, and I wish people were better educated about such things, but once you add medicine to it, the gloves are off.

Its ONLY and I mean ONLY value is as a placebo.

I think that Ustwo is correct in his definition of homeopathic medicine, whereas oFia is talking about holistic medicine. Unfortunately, the terms have been scrambled over time.

oFia · 10-22-2007, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redlemon

I think that Ustwo is correct in his definition of homeopathic medicine, whereas oFia is talking about holistic medicine. Unfortunately, the terms have been scrambled over time.

Should I have quoted information from that link to ensure people would actually look at it?

Redlemon · 10-22-2007, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oFia

Should I have quoted information from that link to ensure people would actually look at it?

I did read it. And yes, it contradicts some of what I said. My perception is still that "tiny dose = homeopathy" and "body as a whole = holistic".

But, since this is a new thread, why don't you go ahead and quote the parts you find important? I am interested in this debate.

The_Jazz · 10-22-2007, 08:53 AM

If anyone wants a mod to copy actual posts over to this thread, just let us know which numbers and we can switch them over fairly easily. Just let me or any other staff member who's online know.

behindalens · 10-22-2007, 08:59 AM

In my mind, homeopathy is all placebo, which does have a surprising success rate. Just don't spend too much money on sugar pills.

James Randi explains homepathy the best:
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/BWE1tH93G9U"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/BWE1tH93G9U" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

ratbastid · 10-22-2007, 09:04 AM

It certainly SEEMS like it must be bogus. But there are lots of people who report anecdotally that it is effective. More than would seem to be accountable for by the placebo effect.

Couple days ago I heard a really interesting story about a US Army field medic named Beecher in World War II. His company was fighting at Anzio, completely cut off from supply, and he had TONS of incoming wounded, and a dwindling supply of morphine. To triage his charges, he asked them, "Solder, as you lie there, do you feel much pain?"

Something like 75% of the soldiers--men with gaping shrapnel wounds, gunshot wounds, severe burns, broken limbs, etc--reported no or minimal pain. Beecher was shocked. Prior to entering the Army, he'd run a clinic where he had frequently seen people with injuries that were of equivalent severity, and they ALL reported significant pain.

Beecher's conclusion is that the determining factor regarding pain is: context.

A soldier is shot. What goes through his mind? "Oh, damn, I'm hit. Wait... I'm still alive! If I make it, I'll get to go home. I'll be a wounded veteran--a hero! I'm going to get the Purple Heart! They'll throw me a parade!"

A shopkeeper is shot in a robbery. What goes through his mind? "Oh, damn, I've been shot. Wait... I'm still alive! Oh hell, how am I going to pay for this? My family is counting on me--how long will I be out of work? How will we ever make it?"

Beecher's assertion is that it's not the injury itself that hurts--or at least, not directly--but rather, the pain is filtered through the story that we tell ourselves about the injury.

Fundamentally, this is the theory that underlies current thinking about the placebo effect. Although nobody quite knows HOW it works, there's no doubt THAT it works. And if that's the case, I don't see the harm in there being a branch of "medicine" (I know, the term is debatable as it applies to homeopathy) that is designed to exploit that mechanism.

oFia · 10-22-2007, 09:10 AM

Website is owned by/about:

Quote:

American Institute of Homeopathy
801 N. Fairfax Street, Suite 306
Alexandria, VA 22314

One of these bits is probably the most important info to get from the site:

Quote:

STANDARDS OF HOMEOTHERAPEUTIC PRACTICE

Homeopathy, or Homeotherapeutics, is a unique scientific system of medicine predicated on the Law of Similars, "Similia similibus Curentur," or, "let likes be cured by likes." Although this principle was first postulated by Hippocrates, it had its first practical application in 1796 when Samuel Hahnemann established Homeopathy. Homeotherapeutics and Homeopathy alike are based on the following premises and concepts:

1. Maintenance of normal health depends on efficient physiological functions as controlled by a complex regulating mechanism designated by the term homeostasis.

2. When threatened by disorder or disease, all living organisms exert an effort to maintain or regain normal physiological equilibrium.

3. Recovery from disease is dependent on the inherent vital force of the organism, i.e., its ability to re-establish homeostasis.

4. In general, most human disorders possess two components, the psyche and the soma, which produce emotional, mental, and/or physical symptoms. *

5. The human organism, by virtue of such inherent properties as sensitivity, irritability, and reactivity, may be provoked into some physiological responses by various types of physical, chemical, or biological incitants. When caused by a drug, this is regarded as an iatrogenic response or reaction.

6. A substance which is capable of evoking certain symptoms when administered to an apparently healthy human being under controlled conditions, may become a potentially effective therapeutic agent when prepared according to the standards of the Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia, and administered in accordance with the principles of the Homeomethodology.

* refers to symptoms and signs

Homeopathy, or Homeotherapeutics, views the state of being unwell as being a holistic disturbance in the homeostasis of the total being, evidenced by symptomatology with or without associated demonstrable physical or laboratory abnormalities.

The physician who employs Homeotherapeutics should be cognizant of the total or holistic nature of physiological disorder or disease and the necessity of a holistic approach to diagnosis and treatment.

Quote:

1. What is homeopathic medicine?

Homeopathy is a medical specialty that is based on the knowledge and application of medicines contained in the U.S. FDA-recognized Homeopathic Pharmacopœia of the United States.It is a scientific therapeutic method which embodies a philosophy of understanding people and illness in an holistic context with the goal of promoting optimal health and healing.

Homeopathic medicines are applied on the basis of the empiric law of similars. While German physician C. F. Samuel Hahnemann codified this principle in 1796 into a system of medicine that he called homeopathy, from the Greek, omoiou (like) and paqos (disease), the observation of this principle dates to Hippocrates (460-377 B.C.). Resolution of an illness occurs when the sick individual is given a small dose of a medicine capable of producing similar symptoms in a healthy prover. The medicine acts to return that person's being to homeostasis.

In homeopathic practice, the assistance of homeostasis, rather than its opposition, renders the subject healthier and more able to resist illness. This aspect of cure is integral to homeopathic practice. The individual's overall sense of well-being and efficient, integrated functioning is of vital importance in assessing health. A complete cure is a step to greater health, not the mere absence of pathologic signs.

Looking at the definition of holistic health on wikipedia (because it was quick, not because it was best

)

Quote:

Holistic health refers to a philosophy of medical care that views physical, mental, and spiritual aspects of life as closely interconnected and equally important approaches to treatment. While frequently associated with alternative medicine, it is also increasingly used in mainstream medical practice as part of a broad view of patient care.

I think I'd want any doctor I place my trust in to take a holistic approach to my health. I don't see how you can really separate this approach from any good practice of medicine. Unless you see an overworked doctor who's only interested in treating your cold or flu/etc. (Like the doctor I saw growing up...)

Looking up homeopathy on wikipedia shows me there's two sides to what people think about homeopathy.

I'm not saying every doctor who says he is practicing homeopathy is an authority in the field and is to be trusted. But that's where being informed comes in...

But, since I'm fed up with traditional American medicine (not going into why, that'll take too long) and going to a homeopathic doctor (only a few months), I have a different viewpoint.

Oh. I see I should add something.... I'd have to argue with homeopathy being only placebo effect since when I started the treatment I got worse first.

snowy · 10-22-2007, 09:30 AM

Homeopathy is regulated by the FDA, though we all know how much that's worth. The FDA approves homeopathic remedies not based on efficacy but rather on safety. They are different from herbal supplements in that they are subject to some standards.

Some homeopathic remedies do work, and some have scientific evidence to back it up. It depends on the remedy. I buy pillules from Boiron and Nelsons, as well as lozenges from Boiron. Boiron's Coldcalm lozenges are really great for getting rid of the ookies, and they really help with scratchy throats. I got my SO some drosera rotundifolia pillules to help with a cough that he had. Drosera rotundifolia is a documented anti-inflammatory and anti-spasmodic: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum

Regardless, there is something to be said for the power of possible placebo effect.

oFia · 10-22-2007, 09:34 AM

Herbal remedies and homeopathic remedies are not the same thing.

When I started homeopathic treatment with this doctor I had to stop using herbal remedies, including staying away from a number of other substances.

Ustwo · 10-22-2007, 11:44 AM

What an interesting ethical question for me here, some of you might follow.

I have to think on how to answer this.

behindalens · 10-22-2007, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

It certainly SEEMS like it must be bogus. But there are lots of people who report anecdotally that it is effective. More than would seem to be accountable for by the placebo effect.

.

I disagree. Anecdotally seems to suffer too much from a common plague: small sample size. I am still skeptical that the doctor saw a large enough sample size to really validate it as beyond placebo.

ratbastid · 10-22-2007, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

What an interesting ethical question for me here, some of you might follow.

I have to think on how to answer this.

I don't follow. Is it the question of whether to think of placebo effects as viable medical methods?

Ustwo · 10-22-2007, 03:34 PM

I have decided its best not to post in this thread, please feel free to PM me with any questions on the topic.

10-22-2007, 08:53 AM	#4 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	If anyone wants a mod to copy actual posts over to this thread, just let us know which numbers and we can switch them over fairly easily. Just let me or any other staff member who's online know. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

10-22-2007, 09:30 AM	#8 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	Homeopathy is regulated by the FDA, though we all know how much that's worth. The FDA approves homeopathic remedies not based on efficacy but rather on safety. They are different from herbal supplements in that they are subject to some standards. Some homeopathic remedies do work, and some have scientific evidence to back it up. It depends on the remedy. I buy pillules from Boiron and Nelsons, as well as lozenges from Boiron. Boiron's Coldcalm lozenges are really great for getting rid of the ookies, and they really help with scratchy throats. I got my SO some drosera rotundifolia pillules to help with a cough that he had. Drosera rotundifolia is a documented anti-inflammatory and anti-spasmodic: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum Regardless, there is something to be said for the power of possible placebo effect. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

10-22-2007, 09:34 AM	#9 (permalink)
oFia Tilted Location: Texas	Herbal remedies and homeopathic remedies are not the same thing. When I started homeopathic treatment with this doctor I had to stop using herbal remedies, including staying away from a number of other substances. __________________ Disclaimer: No one was harmed in the making of this post. If you feel that I am not simply stating my opinion and am attempting to bait you or someone else then please reconsider. I do not intentionally attempt to bait anyone.

10-22-2007, 11:44 AM	#10 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	What an interesting ethical question for me here, some of you might follow. I have to think on how to answer this. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

10-22-2007, 03:34 PM	#13 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I have decided its best not to post in this thread, please feel free to PM me with any questions on the topic. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

10-22-2007, 08:59 AM	#5 (permalink)
behindalens Upright	In my mind, homeopathy is all placebo, which does have a surprising success rate. Just don't spend too much money on sugar pills. James Randi explains homepathy the best: <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/BWE1tH93G9U"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/BWE1tH93G9U" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

10-22-2007, 09:04 AM	#6 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	It certainly SEEMS like it must be bogus. But there are lots of people who report anecdotally that it is effective. More than would seem to be accountable for by the placebo effect. Couple days ago I heard a really interesting story about a US Army field medic named Beecher in World War II. His company was fighting at Anzio, completely cut off from supply, and he had TONS of incoming wounded, and a dwindling supply of morphine. To triage his charges, he asked them, "Solder, as you lie there, do you feel much pain?" Something like 75% of the soldiers--men with gaping shrapnel wounds, gunshot wounds, severe burns, broken limbs, etc--reported no or minimal pain. Beecher was shocked. Prior to entering the Army, he'd run a clinic where he had frequently seen people with injuries that were of equivalent severity, and they ALL reported significant pain. Beecher's conclusion is that the determining factor regarding pain is: context. A soldier is shot. What goes through his mind? "Oh, damn, I'm hit. Wait... I'm still alive! If I make it, I'll get to go home. I'll be a wounded veteran--a hero! I'm going to get the Purple Heart! They'll throw me a parade!" A shopkeeper is shot in a robbery. What goes through his mind? "Oh, damn, I've been shot. Wait... I'm still alive! Oh hell, how am I going to pay for this? My family is counting on me--how long will I be out of work? How will we ever make it?" Beecher's assertion is that it's not the injury itself that hurts--or at least, not directly--but rather, the pain is filtered through the story that we tell ourselves about the injury. Fundamentally, this is the theory that underlies current thinking about the placebo effect. Although nobody quite knows HOW it works, there's no doubt THAT it works. And if that's the case, I don't see the harm in there being a branch of "medicine" (I know, the term is debatable as it applies to homeopathy) that is designed to exploit that mechanism.