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Strange Famous 08-25-2007 09:50 AM

views on talking to the police
 
I was interested from another topic that mentioned this - what the views were of a broad collection of mostly American people - in regards to the moral acceptability of talking to the police.

Say for a scenario - something quite permissable. You witness a guy you know from around breaking into one of your neighbours houses to rob them. The neighbour isnt in... so no violence - just a crime against property.

Then two police knock on your door the next to day to say there has been a robbery... 20K stolen... what would you do? Give information to the police right out? Give an anon tip off to the police? Or say nothing to them?

Willravel 08-25-2007 10:00 AM

No friend of mine robs innocent people. My loyalty is earned through honorable behavior, not through cowardly acts. I'll tell the cops and testify at the trial.

Push-Pull 08-25-2007 10:39 AM

Hell, I wouldn't wait to tell the cops. I'd probably try to catch the bastard and turn him in. At very least ensure that I could identify him later if necessary.

snowy 08-25-2007 11:33 AM

When I lived in another house in this city, the police showed up asking about a burglary next door. Mostly they were interested in knowing if we had seen anything, and giving us a warning to lock our doors and windows in case the burglar decided to revisit our neighborhood. We didn't have any information to give them, but if we had had any, I wouldn't have hesitated to give it to them.

Burglary is a much different issue than, say, minors drinking, which is another thing we deal a lot with in this community. I've had the police come to my own house while parties with minors were in progress. Usually I try to intercept them before they step on to my property and deal with whatever their issue for showing up is--typically a noise violation. In that case, I'm obviously not interested in incriminating myself or my friends. Furthermore, if I knew my neighbor was enjoying the reefer in the comforts of his own home, I wouldn't be calling the police up with that information or answering questions from the police about that topic. To me, that's not a crime.

Clearly, however, the example of the OP IS a crime, and should be dealt with accordingly.

ziadel 08-25-2007 11:39 AM

I'd tell the cops. 20k is not like somebody lifting a loaf of bread. But I have very specific rules for dealing with cops.

Cynthetiq 08-25-2007 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous
Say for a scenario - something quite permissable. You witness a guy you know from around breaking into one of your neighbours houses to rob them. The neighbour isnt in... so no violence - just a crime against property.

permissable, does that mean to you "acceptable"? or does it mean "possible"

Strange Famous 08-25-2007 12:32 PM

I meant it in the sense of being acceptable - in as far as crimes go.

I dont think that robbing people is morally a good thing - but in terms of various crimes I could use as an example: if you say someone molesting a young kid or murdering a child or a woman is at the scale of the worst - simple robbery without any violence is at the other end.

Willravel 08-25-2007 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous
I meant it in the sense of being acceptable - in as far as crimes go.

I dont think that robbing people is morally a good thing - but in terms of various crimes I could use as an example: if you say someone molesting a young kid or murdering a child or a woman is at the scale of the worst - simple robbery without any violence is at the other end.

Well if it's robbery, I just call the cops. If it's molestation, I get my bat and walk over.

ubertuber 08-25-2007 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous
I meant it in the sense of being acceptable - in as far as crimes go.

I hope my neighbors feel differently.

Strange Famous 08-25-2007 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel
Well if it's robbery, I just call the cops. If it's molestation, I get my bat and walk over.

natural justice is certainly a possibility.

But if someone is already in custody, and your testimony would be an influancing factor... I think there would be a strong argument then that you should co-operate with the police, even if you had a personal code of honour that did not include that.

Cynthetiq 08-25-2007 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubertuber
I hope my neighbors feel differently.

agreed.

I don't find many crimes acceptable.

I recall you find it acceptable to be "mugged" so long as there isn't any physical harm. I find emotional harm to be equally unacceptable since it persists long after the physical crime.

I still think of the time I was 16 and held up at gunpoint. Was I physically hurt? No, but I have been emotionally damaged to some degree since I still recall that traumatic moment. My employers even thought it emotionally traumatic enough to give me several days off paid.

I'm no snitch meaning I'm not going to complain about you living next to me being a pot smoker or heroine addict. I will however start to complain if unsavory types seem to come in and out at all hours of the day and night.

But I have spoken to police on occassion when people were smoking pot and shooting up at Venice Beach, CA right in the middle of the boardwalk. It is completely inappropriate behavior for the location. I didn't go out of my way, nor would I. They just happened to be walking next to me patrolling. I stopped to let them know of something going on.

So if you are dealing drugs in a neighborhood visibly, standing on the corner, I'm probably going to call the cops on you. Doing it descreetly from your home? Maybe not so much, again, it will depend on how much you impinge on the quality of life that my living space/building requires.

But when cops inquire about what you are doing, coming and going. I'm pretty much going to tell them what I've observed based on how I am asked. If the officer is a dick to me, probably not going to tell him anything.

Willravel 08-25-2007 04:51 PM

I wouldn't rat on a friend if he popped a guy in the face to prevent him from hurting someone, even though it could be assault. I've heard the stories about criminals suing when they get hurt mid-crime. I'll have no part of that dishonorable twisting of the justice system.

Midnight 08-25-2007 06:53 PM

The cops wouldn't have been knocking at my door the next day. I would have been on the phone with the cops while he was still in that house.

I don't care who it is. knowing them or not does not make committing a crime right. We have laws for a reason.

And a friend of mine you say? my friends wouldn't do this. Desperation or otherwise. Sorry.. my friends know right from wrong. and there aren't "permissable crimes" Crime is crime. period. You don't obey the laws, you get punished. you don't like the laws, you run for office and try to change them. You need money, you work for it or you ask to borrow it.

warrrreagl 08-25-2007 08:51 PM

Broken window analogy - you let crime go on without reporting it or fixing it and you invite more crime.

shakran 08-25-2007 10:17 PM

you should have called when you saw it, otherwise they could charge you with accessory.

You should certainly give up the info when the cop asks for it, because otherwise you can be charged with obstruction.

filtherton 08-25-2007 10:57 PM

It really depends on the circumstances. The police aren't necessarily the "right" answer in all situations involving crimes. I think it depends on seriousness, and the likelihood that police involvement will just make things worse.

In the case in the op, i would like to think i would help the police if it came down to it, but it would also depend on how far i would have to stick my neck, and/or the necks of my family out in the process. If i saw it happening i would probably call the cops.

Snitching should be carried out with discretion.

Push-Pull 08-26-2007 07:24 AM

Quote:

In the case in the op, i would like to think i would help the police if it came down to it, but it would also depend on how far i would have to stick my neck, and/or the necks of my family out in the process. If i saw it happening i would probably call the cops.

Snitching should be carried out with discretion.
It's interesting that calling the cops is "sticking your neck out" and "snitching". I understand that in certain areas, this action could bring about retribution to you and yours, but isn't the act of calling the cops just one way of thwarting crime in your area? I don't think it's much more different than asking someone to move along or even picking up a weapon and showing the perps that their behavior is not welcomed by your community. No matter how it's handled, it's showing them that their activities are not tolerated, and don't do them here.

That being said, if I see someone doing something illegal that isn't harming anyone, I generally ask them to move along. They don't get asked a second time, I just call in the cops.

mixedmedia 08-26-2007 08:46 AM

I wouldn't lie to the cops to defend someone who robbed my neighbor under any circumstances. I can't imagine why I would want to sacrifice my own honesty to defend someone's lame-ass crime.

roachboy 08-26-2007 09:50 AM

ok so i will from time to time indulge the ganga, and that's illegal.
but i think the law in an ass and would not rat out anyone involved with it.

on the other hand, i think that people who drive cars while talking on their cellphones are a menace and would definitely and without hesitation pile on evidence to a cop were some situation (cant really see what that would be) arise in which it was relevant.

burglary is trickier--i dont condone it.
i dont like the police---o i know, individual cops are as variable as human beings as any other large population, so it isnt about that--i see them as potentially agents of state repression. but burglary--that involves violation of community, of community norms. so balancing one against the other, i might well talk to the cops. if i knew the person to did the burglary, i would maybe be conflicted about it for a minute.

at another end of things, i have seen cops beating up people--including some friends--in the context of political demos and as a result of that am really really not a fan in general. in that sort of context, the police are the enemy. pure and simple.

which i guess means that i have a self-serving instrumentalized relation to these agents of state power.
which makes me like any other bourgeois type.
so be it, i guess.

FoolThemAll 08-26-2007 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight
Sorry.. my friends know right from wrong. and there aren't "permissable crimes" Crime is crime. period. You don't obey the laws, you get punished. you don't like the laws, you run for office and try to change them. You need money, you work for it or you ask to borrow it.

Legally, there aren't any 'permissible' crimes, but I'd label a neighbor privately smoking pot as a 'morally permissible' crime. I wouldn't feel any moral obligation to say anything to any officer of the law about such a crime, even if subpoenaed. And if my knowledge of such crime wasn't a result of any inconsiderate behavior on the part of the accused, then I'd even consider it a moral duty NOT to assist in the prosecution. If s/he doesn't deserve punishment, then I shouldn't help deliver the punishment.

Strange Famous 08-26-2007 10:19 AM

Im not gonna diss anyone for their views... but I wonder how many people (just in general) who would call the police in this situation, but would also buy a DVD recorder third of retail price of a bloke from the pub...

FoolThemAll 08-26-2007 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous
Im not gonna diss anyone for their views... but I wonder how many people (just in general) who would call the police in this situation, but would also buy a DVD recorder third of retail price of a bloke from the pub...

I bought some used cassette tapes off a guy who 'needed bus money' once... but that has more to do with my naivete than with my inconsistencies.

Ilow 08-26-2007 12:24 PM

It has always been fascinating to me that you can generally find the "No Snitching" and "If you see the Police, Warna Brother" t-shirts in the places that have the most elevated levels of crime. They should also have a "No Bitching--that the city government doesn't care about you" t-shirts as well.

Strange Famous 08-26-2007 12:41 PM

I think I personally agree with roach. I know some police as people (two people who used to work at my place, and one I went to school with) and I liked them all as people - but in a general sense I do see police as my enemy and as being an enemy of society: that is being the armed forces of the state and capital against the people.

And I appreciate, if you join the military, for whatever reason - your job is to obey orders whatever you feel about it... but as a corporation I see police as a force who exists to, yes, maintain basic security in area's where it is necessary for business to carry on working for that be in place, but basically a force of violence on the side of exploitation.

I am not a thief, but to me talking to police is ingrained in me as something I dont do, to the point it isnt even rational. Like at school.. you dont talk to teachers. I was never really bullied at school, but there were times when I was picked on unfairly, and I always handled that myself - and Im not a hard man and Im not saying I won every fight Ive ever been in or anything - but if someone violates me in any way I would deal with them personally before I would snitch or grass. And that feeling just got stronger for me as I got older and into the real world.

And I extend that now, that I just will stay out of things that dont involve me, and handle my own shit. The same as at school - if someone is being bullied and I feel its out of order I might get involved and I might not - it depends on a lot of things.

There is stuff - and I say again that I count rape, child abuse, and violent attacks or murder of a woman as the worst things - that I would put aside any other moral objection I had with regard to. In each of these cases, natural justice may be a better way of dealing with things - such as if a girl is raped, and the brother of the girl kills the rapist - OBV no one is gonna care that much the rapist is dead... but the state is the strongest power in any place, and sometimes it requires their power to bring about justice.

World's King 08-26-2007 12:56 PM

I don't say anything to cops.

Psycho Dad 08-26-2007 01:12 PM

I wouldn't risk the karma points to watch some douche bag jack my neighbor's shit and do nothing about it. And why the hell anyone would want to view the police investigating a crime as the bad guy is beyond me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by World's King
I don't say anything to cops.

I'm reminded of the Ron White line... "I knew I had the right to remain silent. But I didn't have the ability".

ubertuber 08-26-2007 01:57 PM

Talking to the police isn't a question of how you feel about police officers. It's about how you feel about your neighbors.

I you were my neighbor and watched someone rob my house, I would absolutely think of you as partially responsible.

Elphaba 08-26-2007 04:48 PM

I can't believe this question was asked, and then taken seriously. I suppose this is further evidence that I am an anachronism within this small world of tfp. Kitty Genovese comes to my mind, but perhaps y'all are to young to remember the shameful behavior of bystanders in that case.

In answer to this question, I would follow the principle of "do unto others" that I try to live by. If that seems to vague to some, I would call the police whether I liked that neighbor or not.

ubertuber 08-26-2007 04:53 PM

I know about Kitty Genovese.

I don't think you're that much of an anachronism. Look at the poll results.

snowy 08-26-2007 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba
I can't believe this question was asked, and then taken seriously. I suppose this is further evidence that I am an anachronism within this small world of tfp. Kitty Genovese comes to my mind, but perhaps y'all are to young to remember the shameful behavior of bystanders in that case.

In answer to this question, I would follow the principle of "do unto others" that I try to live by. If that seems to vague to some, I would call the police whether I liked that neighbor or not.

Anyone who has seen "Boondock Saints" knows who Kitty Genovese is.

And yes, the Golden Rule is a valuable thing to keep in mind here. Would you want your neighbors to call the cops if they saw someone breaking into your house. I sure would.

waltert 08-26-2007 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous
Im not gonna diss anyone for their views... but I wonder how many people (just in general) who would call the police in this situation, but would also buy a DVD recorder third of retail price of a bloke from the pub...

just for reference, I havent bought anything out of the trunk of someone's car.

I've been witness to at least one crime, and stalked the perps to their car to get some unmistakable ID on them, and reported it to the police.

honestly, if it was purely up to me, I would kill a thief without a second thought if the law provided for it.

I have let a thief get away because I chose to do the "right" thing and get the police involved. (loaded AR-15 was in hand and the guy was in sight, so it was not a hypothetical situation)

spindles 08-26-2007 07:02 PM

I'm amazed there is more than 10% of us who would tell the police nothing. The neighbour has worked hard to buy the things he owns - why should we be happy to let anyone steal it?

World's King 08-26-2007 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spindles
I'm amazed there is more than 10% of us who would tell the police nothing. The neighbour has worked hard to buy the things he owns - why should we be happy to let anyone steal it?


Mainly because if a friend of mine broke into a house... I more then likely had something to do with it.

roachboy 08-27-2007 08:30 AM

for what it's worth, i was serious about the community norms thing--i would talk to the cops about a burglary--but i know that unless they caught the guy red-handed, it wouldnt matter.
i would talk to them about a car accident, or about some shithead who is driving while talking on their cellphone (as a cyclist, these people seem to me totally irresponsible).

but there are other things i would not talk to them about--and i sure as hell would not co-operate with them concerning ANYTHING political.

btw--i have been burglarized before. i understand the sense of being-violated it entails. when it happened, i talked to the cops and they did not take it seriously. they didnt even pretend that they were. well, maybe they did inwardly, but their incompetence outweighed that.
the break-in happened through a back window and involved using a crowbar to wedge the bars off the window. the cops didnt see it. they didnt see it because they didnt look.

and i never got back my computer and never got back the book manuscript that i had been working on for two fucking years that was on it. or the diskettes on which it was backed up. two fucking years worth of work. gone because i went to dinner on the wrong night. and i am quite sure that the machine ended up in the trash somewhere.

this sort of experience marks you. trust me on this.

Jinn 08-27-2007 08:42 AM

I would absolutely tell the police. They have arguably one of the most difficult and dangerous jobs in the world, and they don't need more people stonewalling them and refusing to report crimes. They're there for a reason.

Toaster126 08-28-2007 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnight
And a friend of mine you say? my friends wouldn't do this. Desperation or otherwise. Sorry.. my friends know right from wrong. and there aren't "permissable crimes" Crime is crime. period. You don't obey the laws, you get punished. you don't like the laws, you run for office and try to change them. You need money, you work for it or you ask to borrow it.

I think this is a little too extreme of a view. Knowing right from wrong doesn't make a desperate person keep to legal means to make ends met. It just makes them feel guilty (probably).

ItWasMe 08-28-2007 11:26 AM

If I saw 'a guy that I knew from around' breaking into my neighbor's house, I would call the police. I wouldn't wait for them to come to me. I know some people don't want to get involved for whatever reason, and I wonder if they consider that they might be next on the burglar's list.

After my husband left with the military, someone broke into our house late at night, five minutes after we went to bed. I would hope that if my neighbors saw anything, they would have talked to the police. The police took it seriously and checked out our house while we waited outside. That's what they should have done with RB to make sure the person was not hiding in his house/apartment.

Strange Famous 08-28-2007 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubertuber
I know about Kitty Genovese.

I don't think you're that much of an anachronism. Look at the poll results.

something to do with Vito Genovese?

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltert
just for reference, I havent bought anything out of the trunk of someone's car.

I've been witness to at least one crime, and stalked the perps to their car to get some unmistakable ID on them, and reported it to the police.

honestly, if it was purely up to me, I would kill a thief without a second thought if the law provided for it.

I have let a thief get away because I chose to do the "right" thing and get the police involved. (loaded AR-15 was in hand and the guy was in sight, so it was not a hypothetical situation)

I'm sorry, but thats genuinely disturbing.

__

And my house got burgled this year in case anyone thinks I am just naive about it.

maleficent 08-28-2007 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous
something to do with Vito Genovese?

Not even a little bit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese

highthief 08-28-2007 02:15 PM

I thnk you have some serious morality and ethics issues if you don't turn in some criminal commiting an offence as serious as burglary - especially one inflicting damage on your own neighbourhood. Or maybe it's a cowardice issue.

Please, don't move to my neighbourhood if you believe in letting crooks fuck your neighbours over.

Shauk 08-28-2007 02:19 PM

I'm not a flaming douchebag, I'd turn his ass in. If my "friend" was stealing from my neighbor, why would I want him as a friend anyway? Whats to say he hasn't been stealing from me? Besides, you'd do for your neighbor what you would want your neighbor to do for you.

for some of us, what we own is what we base our lives on. how devastated would you be if you lost all of the data on your computer, because someone stole it. your saved works, be it your writing, music you make, photoshop productions, or spreadsheets for work, or the more sentimental photos over the last 10 years, emails, or home videos. (although strangely enough that's exactly what happened with pamela and tommy lee lol)

or maybe musical studio equipment, irreplacable records, and so on.

seriously if people stole stuff from me and my neighbor watched it, and did nothing, and I found out about it later, I'd want him charged as an accomplice.

Cynthetiq 08-28-2007 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

the pertinent details...

Quote:

Genovese had driven home in the early morning of March 13, 1964. Arriving home at about 3:15 a.m. and parking about 100 feet (30 m) from her apartment's door, she was approached by Winston Moseley. Moseley ran after her and quickly overtook her, stabbing her twice in the back. When Genovese screamed out, her cries were heard by several neighbors; but on a cold night with the windows closed, only a few of them recognized the sound as a cry for help. When one of the neighbors shouted at the attacker, "Let that girl alone!", Moseley ran away and Genovese slowly made her way towards her own apartment around the end of the building. She was seriously injured, but now out of view of those few who may have had reason to believe she was in need of help.

Records of the earliest calls to police are unclear and were certainly not given a high priority by the police. One witness said his father called police after the initial attack and reported that a woman was "beat up, but got up and was staggering around." [5]

Other witnesses observed Moseley enter his car and drive away, only to return ten minutes later. He systematically searched the parking lot, train station, and small apartment complex, ultimately finding Genovese, who was lying, barely conscious, in a hallway at the back of the building. Out of view of the street and of those who may have heard or seen any sign of the original attack, he proceeded to further attack her, stabbing her several more times. Knife wounds in her hands suggested that she attempted to defend herself from him. While she lay dying, he sexually assaulted her. He stole about $49 from her and left her dying in the hallway. The attacks spanned approximately half an hour.

A few minutes after the final attack, a witness, Karl Ross, called the police. Police and medical personnel arrived within minutes of Ross' call; Genovese was taken away by ambulance and died en route to the hospital. Later investigation by police and prosecutors revealed that approximately a dozen (but almost certainly not the 38 cited in the Times article) individuals nearby had heard or observed portions of the attack, though none could have seen or been aware of the entire incident. [6] Only one witness (Joseph Fink) was aware she was stabbed in the first attack, and only Karl Ross was aware of it in the second attack. Many were entirely unaware that an assault or homicide was in progress; some thought that what they saw or heard was a lover's quarrel or a drunken brawl or a group of friends leaving the bar outside when Moseley first approached Genovese.
all someone had to do was call the cops, but no they had the "don't talk to the cops attitude," and someone lost their life. That was someone's family member, I hope that it's not ever yours or one of your friends. Simple burglary sometimes ends up in homicides. A call to the po po could avert that, but your pride gets in the way. It's on your head not mine thank goodness.

filtherton 08-28-2007 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
all someone had to do was call the cops, but no they had the "don't talk to the cops attitude," and someone lost their life. That was someone's family member, I hope that it's not ever yours or one of your friends. Simple burglary sometimes ends up in homicides. A call to the po po could avert that, but your pride gets in the way. It's on your head not mine thank goodness.

I don't know that you can chalk it up to a "don't talk to the cops attitude." I think that shit like this can happen, not necessarily because people don't want to talk to the cops, but because people think that someone else is going to call the cops.

That being said, i don't know if anyone here who is currently advocating discretion when it comes to calling the cops would have not called the cops in this particular instance for that particular reason. I don't know, though. Strange, roach, would you guys rather let someone get raped and murdered than call the cops? I imagine not, but you never know.

How about another tricky moral question: What if you saw someone breaking into your neighbor's house, called the cops, then found out after your neighbor gets arrested that your neighbor was engaged in some illegal, yet essentially harmless, activity that ended up getting exposed because you "did the right thing?" Your neighbor goes to prison because somebody wanted to steal his/her laptop and you wanted to do the right thing. Was it worth it? Is your neighbor glad that you were looking out for them?

I've had my shit stolen before and it sucked, but let me tell you, there are worse things that can happen; some of those things can be the direct result of the involvement of police officers. I'm not saying that calling the cops isn't necessary, or that i wouldn't do it if i saw someone breaking into somebody else's property, because i probably would. All i'm saying is that the decision should not be made without a little thought and that the police aren't always the right answer.

highthief 08-28-2007 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton
How about another tricky moral question: What if you saw someone breaking into your neighbor's house, called the cops, then found out after your neighbor gets arrested that your neighbor was engaged in some illegal, yet essentially harmless, activity that ended up getting exposed because you "did the right thing?" Your neighbor goes to prison because somebody wanted to steal his/her laptop and you wanted to do the right thing. Was it worth it? Is your neighbor glad that you were looking out for them?

I think that's really reaching.

What if, what if? But to follow your own analogy:

What if a guy breaks into my neighbours house, I call the cops, the neighbour turns out to be Jeffrey Dahmer, boiling up little boys in his crockpot?

I guess I'm glad they're both going to jail, aren't you?

mixedmedia 08-28-2007 04:21 PM

Well, to be fair, the OP specifically stated that he wasn't talking about violent crime. I'll go out on a limb and assert that the people here saying they wouldn't call the cops were not talking about a violent crime.

filtherton 08-28-2007 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief
I think that's really reaching.

What if, what if? But to follow your own analogy:

What if a guy breaks into my neighbours house, I call the cops, the neighbour turns out to be Jeffrey Dahmer, boiling up little boys in his crockpot?

I guess I'm glad they're both going to jail, aren't you?

I guess all those trees must be blocking your view of the forest.

The idea is that there isn't a clear moral decision to be made in the context of the question posed by the op if one's morals dictate that one attempt to do right by their neighbor. Is that more clear? The world is not black and white, and the best intentions don't always bring about the best results. The position that the morally superior person will always call the cops when witnessing a crime in progress(as seemingly advanced by some folks in this thread) is naive; the involvement of the police isn't necessarily going to make anything better.

Moral absolutes are teh lame.

ubertuber 08-28-2007 05:27 PM

Filtherton, I'll bit and say that I'd call the cops, and I wouldn't feel too bad about the neighbor getting busted. It sucks for him and all, but that's part of the risk of breaking the law, even in innocuous ways. We all have our own tolerance level for that risk. Me, I jaywalk like a fiend in NYC because you never get ticketed. Here in LA, I toned it down.

filtherton 08-28-2007 05:46 PM

I'd probably do the same thing, uber.

All i'm saying is that prior and/or ensuing notions of moral superiority concerning calling the cops are misplaced. This isn't csi or law and order. There are a lot of cops who can be complete pieces of shit. Calling the cops in the wrong circumstances can make things worse for the wrong people.

For instance, in my city, 7 times out of 10 (anecdotally speaking), when the police are involved in a situation concerning a bicyclist and a motorist, regardless of the details, the motorist comes out on top in terms of legal sanctions. Unless there are serious injuries or you are particularly sympathetic to inattentive drivers, you might want to avoid involving the cops.

MSD 08-28-2007 06:17 PM

I'll start off by saying that this thread seems like an attempt to justify past action and nullify guilt, or am attempt to find others who agree with what most you know in person consider a reprehensible action.

If I were to witness a crime that is clearly harmful to people other than the perpetrator (robbery has a victim, not turning in a wad of cash you found under a bush that will just go into the state coffers if turned in does not; selling harmful substances to children has a victim, selling to responsible adults and using drugs in the privacy of your own home does not,) I would immediately inform law enforcement.

In your scenario, I would do the following, in this order:

1: make sure that everyone in the house is safe and inform them that the neighbor is being robbed, then arm myself and others in the house for a worst-case scenario (home invasion,) instruct others in the house to move to a safe, easily-defensible area until I shout an all-clear code phrase or ask for help. Ask them to use cell phones to call neighbors and tell them to secure their houses and inform them of the situation. If they have the cell phone number of the neighbor who's being burglarized, call them and tell them it's not safe to come home at the moment.

2: secure my house (if it isn't already done,) to minimize the possibility of a home invasion: lock and bar doors and windows, and turn on motion-detector lights.

3: call the police, convey as much information as possible, and ask if 911 or another number should be used if I observe anything else that could help them. Inform them that I will watch from a safe part of my house, that I will inform neighbors, that I have secured my house but am armed in case of a home invasion, and that if the police need to contact me that they should park in my driveway with red/blue lights on, ring the doorbell, and wait for me to call the dispatcher to confirm that they have sent someone to my door, at which point I will secure any weapons and invite them in to the common area of the house.

4: get binoculars, a directional microphone, headphones, and a camera or video camera to record as much evidence as possible

5: observe and document the crime from a dark room through an open window that is far enough off the ground that someone cannot easily reach it and get in. Call police at the number they specified if I observe anything else that can help them apprehend the criminal more efficiently or safely.

6: if police come to my house: call the dispatcher to verify that they sent officers to my house, invite the officers into the common area of the house (living room and bathroom,) thank them for the quick response (average police response time in Fairfield: 1:45) put on a pot of coffee, provide them with any evidence I collected, provide any information they need related to the crime I witnessed, tell them how to contact me if they need further assistance, and get names, badge numbers, and business cards for each of them.

7: secure all doors and windows after police leave, turn on all outside lights, call neighbors to inform them of whether or not the suspect was caught, ask everyone to keep an eye out for anything suspicious for the next few weeks, especially if the suspect was not caught.

8: make a statement to be submitted to the court if necessary, testify in court if necessary, write a letter to the police chief expressing my satisfaction or dissatisfaction with how the incident was handled.

roachboy 08-28-2007 07:18 PM

look, folks, if you read my posts above you'll find that i said pretty clearly where the line is for me between what i would report and what i would not.

the relevant sentences are those that begin with community norms being violated. i said i would report a burglary or other violations, particularly of persons. i indicated that i might be ambivalent about it as well. so i made another post that explained why i might be ambivalent.

here's a summary of that one:

i was burglarized in philadelphia and i lost a computer and backup that cost me two fucking years worth of work.
two fucking years. a nearly complete book. something that could have had a significant impact on my professional life. something i devoted an ENORMOUS amount of time and effort to doing (this last bit i didnt put in).
gone.
gone because i went to dinner at the wrong time.

furthermore i said that the cops, which i called, did nothing.
fuck all.
and THAT explains the ambivalence.

[[btw: i dont talk about this much. apparently i still get angry about it.]]

the other side of the line--and i made this quite clear as well if you read the post----is the police in their explicitly political functions. in that area, i would never turn in anyone to the cops.
now within this, there are obviously separations that i would make, but i didnt talk about them.

so if you want to debate with me, try again.

Psycho Dad 08-29-2007 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy
furthermore i said that the cops, which i called, did nothing.
fuck all.
and THAT explains the ambivalence.

But when you are working with the police to investigate a burglary, it is to assist the victim, not the police. Keeping this attitude won't make what happened two years ago any better.

highthief 08-29-2007 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton
I guess all those trees must be blocking your view of the forest.

The idea is that there isn't a clear moral decision to be made in the context of the question posed by the op if one's morals dictate that one attempt to do right by their neighbor. Is that more clear? The world is not black and white, and the best intentions don't always bring about the best results. The position that the morally superior person will always call the cops when witnessing a crime in progress(as seemingly advanced by some folks in this thread) is naive; the involvement of the police isn't necessarily going to make anything better.

Moral absolutes are teh lame.

No, I think your analogy was simply lame but I tried to answer anyway.

Calling the cops when you witness a crime (and let's say a crime of a serious nature, the type for which you will do time, not jaywalking or smoking a joint but burglary certainly qualifies) is ALWAYS the correct course of action, ethically and legally.

filtherton 08-29-2007 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief
No, I think your analogy was simply lame but I tried to answer anyway.

Maybe it was lame, in any case, you get the point after i clarified, right? Or was that lame too?

Quote:

Calling the cops when you witness a crime (and let's say a crime of a serious nature, the type for which you will do time, not jaywalking or smoking a joint but burglary certainly qualifies) is ALWAYS the correct course of action, ethically and legally.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but you might want to refine your definition of "serious" if you're going to use absolute words like always. Otherwise, your position is essentially, "It is always legally and ethically correct to call the cops when you witness a crime that i consider serious, and by serious i mean something completely arbitrary." Which is just another way of saying, "I only call the cops when i think i should call the cops," which itself is completely trivial and obvious. I only call the cops when i think i should too, i only eat when i want to and it is [/b]ALWAYS[/b] the correct course of action.



What i'm trying to say is that, not only are there many different cases where involving the police could make the situation worse for everyone involved, there are also people for whom a very legitimate distrust of the police requires them to handle things without them. These people aren't cowards, as you seemed to try to imply earlier, they just have a different perspective than you.

Here's an anecdote: A good friend of mine was disciplining his daughter on a sidewalk the other day and he said something she didn't want to hear so she took off. Right towards the street. So he grabbed her, in the way that you grab someone who's running into a busy street. It probably didn't look very comfortable, and he probably started loudly telling her what a bad idea running into the street was. Some lady walking by decided that he was in he process of physically and mentally abusing her. The lady got involved, repeatedly asked him if he watched dr. phil, and whether he knew that children need to be heard. My friend essentially told the lady to fuck off, mind her own business, so she called the cops. To her, it had gotten to the point where it was "serious" enough, that her commitment to ethical and legal behavior required her to call the police.

Thankfully, the cop who showed up wasn't a complete tool, because he recognized the situation for what it was. Another possible outcome is that a cop shows up, takes the lady's side, initiates social services intervention, and my friend has to go to court for disciplining his daughter in front of someone who watches dr. phil.

So, by all means, call the cops when you think you should, most people do. Just don't delude yourself that you're always doing anybody a favor.

highthief 08-29-2007 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton
So, by all means, call the cops when you think you should, most people do. Just don't delude yourself that you're always doing anybody a favor.

I would think I am always doing society a favour. Yes, I may think about helping out my singular neighbour whose house is being robbed, but the larger picture is I can get a scumbag criminal off the streets and make my own little part of society and my neighbourhood better in doing so. I don't see a downside to that.

As to what people should consider serious, I think that any crime for which the prepetrator would receive jail time is serious. Ergo, smoking a joint, littering, or driving without a seatbelt aren't serious and probably the majority of people would go along with that.

Any form of theft or assault is serious.

filtherton 08-29-2007 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief
I would think I am always doing society a favour. Yes, I may think about helping out my singular neighbour whose house is being robbed, but the larger picture is I can get a scumbag criminal off the streets and make my own little part of society and my neighbourhood better in doing so. I don't see a downside to that.

Well, it's nice when things are that cut and dry, but not all criminals are actually scumbag criminals, some are just good people making honest mistakes, some have families who might be better off with a criminal for a parent than a convict for a parent. Life isn't like t.v., it's a lot messier.

Quote:

As to what people should consider serious, I think that any crime for which the prepetrator would receive jail time is serious. Ergo, smoking a joint, littering, or driving without a seatbelt aren't serious and probably the majority of people would go along with that.

Any form of theft or assault is serious.
But you admit that your definition is completely arbitrary, right? In some states, stealing a candy bar could get you serious jail time, if it happens to be your third strike; do you call the cops on candy bar thieves? How can you even begin to try and claim absolute moral authority here?

highthief 08-29-2007 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton
Well, it's nice when things are that cut and dry, but not all criminals are actually scumbag criminals, some are just good people making honest mistakes, some have families who might be better off with a criminal for a parent than a convict for a parent. Life isn't like t.v., it's a lot messier.

Well, no - anyone breaking into a house, to use the original analogy, is a scumbag criminal. Scumbag, bad person, not getting into heaven, pick your description. There's no shades of grey here. Someone takes a deliberate action they know to be seriously illegal and which will (if they successful) inflict significant harm on someone else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton
But you admit that your definition is completely arbitrary, right? In some states, stealing a candy bar could get you serious jail time, if it happens to be your third strike; do you call the cops on candy bar thieves? How can you even begin to try and claim absolute moral authority here?

It's not arbitrary at all - I do not know the laws in the US, but in Canada we have summary and indictable offenses. Summary offences are typically things you would get a fine for or perhaps a few months in prison. Indictable offences get you years in jail and are also crimes for which citizens are entitled to make arrests. So, when I speak of "serious" I refer to indictable offences. I know the laws of my country and my "arbitrary" line is anything but. The laws of the US are of no concern to me unless I'm in that country on business or otherwise.

filtherton 08-29-2007 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief
Well, no - anyone breaking into a house, to use the original analogy, is a scumbag criminal. Scumbag, bad person, not getting into heaven, pick your description. There's no shades of grey here. Someone takes a deliberate action they know to be seriously illegal and which will (if they successful) inflict significant harm on someone else.

Again, you're entitled to your opinion. It doesn't really matter to me all that much. I know people who have broken into places where they didn't belong to take things that didn't belong to them. You might, whilst completely ignorant of any other detail about their existence, call them a scumbag, that's fine. It doesn't mean that your proclamation has any value or any relevance in regards to reality.

Certainly there are a lot of people who do commit crimes like burglary who are scumbags, but the fact that they have broken into a house isn't what makes them so, unless you're aiming to include b&e in the definition of scumbag. This would be novel.

Quote:

It's not arbitrary at all - I do not know the laws in the US, but in Canada we have summary and indictable offenses. Summary offences are typically things you would get a fine for or perhaps a few months in prison. Indictable offences get you years in jail and are also crimes for which citizens are entitled to make arrests. So, when I speak of "serious" I refer to indictable offences. I know the laws of my country and my "arbitrary" line is anything but. The laws of the US are of no concern to me unless I'm in that country on business or otherwise.
The fact that there are laws for which you would call the cops and laws for which you wouldn't makes your decision arbitrary. Your decision to defer to a list of indictable offenses is arbitrary. Unless you have no discretion whatsoever when it comes to calling the police, your actions are based on your own personal preferences and are therefore, by definition, arbitrary.

I don't want to get into a semantical discussion here, so if that's where you're planning on taking this, don't bother.

If you can't see where i'm coming from that's fine. I can accept that. On this particular subject you see things in black and white, and all i'm trying to point out is that one can't make credible absolute proclamations from a subjective perspective. Especially when you can't even admit that your perspective is subjective.

QuasiMondo 08-29-2007 04:00 PM

I think it's all based on location. In some places, talking with the police, even if you're just an uninvolved witness does put your life in jeopardy. This is one of the contributing factors to cities like Newark having a high homicide rate and a low conviction rate. Witness intimidation is bad enough that the district attorney won't prosecute a suspect if their case has only one witness because they always retract their statement at the trial, resulting in an acquittal.

With Witnesses At Risk, Murder Suspects Go Free   click to show 


This 'no snitch' campaign is alive and well, and is a serious problem.

highthief 08-30-2007 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton
I know people who have broken into places where they didn't belong to take things that didn't belong to them. You might, whilst completely ignorant of any other detail about their existence, call them a scumbag, that's fine.

I do know people who broke into people's houses. They're scumbags. They went on to other crimes and now they're dead, car wrapped around an oak tree while fleeing from the cops. Good riddance to bad rubbish, you know?

But whatever, quite obviously the overwhelming majority of the poll respondents are sure of their morals and ethics and what is right and what is wrong. And that is great to see, even if a few people adhere stubbornly to straddling the fence.

filtherton 08-30-2007 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highthief
But whatever, quite obviously the overwhelming majority of the poll respondents are sure of their morals and ethics and what is right and what is wrong. And that is great to see, even if a few people adhere stubbornly to straddling the fence.

If you can't be bothered to try to understand what i'm talking about then there really isn't any point continuing this conversation.

passthru 09-10-2007 08:07 PM

The scenario in the OP is a little strange to me. If I was aware there was a crime going on, I'd report it right then. When the police came to me they'd likely already know who I was because of my report, and I'd be glad to answer any related questions that they had.
I don't know why anybody would tell the police nothing. Unless the police were being total assholes (which I've never seen happen when they're gathering information after an actual crime has occurred) there is no reason to stay quiet.
Unfortunately there are many instances when the police might be questioning people before they fully understand what's going on. In those cases most police are rude and intrusive, presumably because you're a potential criminal and they just don't care to be friendly. It's too bad that those situations exist, but they do. I don't cooperate in any way if police are out of line and don't care to listen to reason.

troit 09-10-2007 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
agreed.

I don't find many crimes acceptable.

I recall you find it acceptable to be "mugged" so long as there isn't any physical harm. I find emotional harm to be equally unacceptable since it persists long after the physical crime.

I still think of the time I was 16 and held up at gunpoint. Was I physically hurt? No, but I have been emotionally damaged to some degree since I still recall that traumatic moment. My employers even thought it emotionally traumatic enough to give me several days off paid.

I'm no snitch meaning I'm not going to complain about you living next to me being a pot smoker or heroine addict. I will however start to complain if unsavory types seem to come in and out at all hours of the day and night.

But I have spoken to police on occassion when people were smoking pot and shooting up at Venice Beach, CA right in the middle of the boardwalk. It is completely inappropriate behavior for the location. I didn't go out of my way, nor would I. They just happened to be walking next to me patrolling. I stopped to let them know of something going on.

So if you are dealing drugs in a neighborhood visibly, standing on the corner, I'm probably going to call the cops on you. Doing it descreetly from your home? Maybe not so much, again, it will depend on how much you impinge on the quality of life that my living space/building requires.

But when cops inquire about what you are doing, coming and going. I'm pretty much going to tell them what I've observed based on how I am asked. If the officer is a dick to me, probably not going to tell him anything.

Perfectly stated CYN - I agree on every level even though I know several police officers and FBI agents. Believe me I'm no angel and neither are they. But just like being a parent some acts can be excused but egregous acts should be punished.

waltert 09-10-2007 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

I'm sorry, but thats genuinely disturbing.

__

And my house got burgled this year in case anyone thinks I am just naive about it.

its an industrial property, so every once in a while, the place will get hit hard, and repeatedly. over the last couple of years, people have probably stolen $30,000 worth of stuff and caused another $15,000 in property damage getting the stuff.

I've had my house broken into...but that wasnt nearly as exciting as living with a theif for about a decade growing up.

there's nothing quite like having countless things that you worked hard for go missing...(step brother) this guy would steal whatever he could get his hands on (his father's wedding ring, grandparents stuff, my stuff, his real brothers stuff, strangers stuff)...anyway I presume he blew alot of it on drugs, or whatever. I have somewhat of a "special" hatred for people who make their living by stealing.

anyway, I saw him make his bed as he was growing up, and no matter what bullshit revelation he claimed to have (jesus, whatever)...he just went back to being the same old crook.

he's been in the state pen for the last decade. some people just dont change...and dont have a right to exist in society.


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