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View Poll Results: What would you do?
Give info to the police straight out 47 85.45%
Give info to the police on the quiet 4 7.27%
Dont tell the police anything 4 7.27%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 08-28-2007, 02:19 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I'm not a flaming douchebag, I'd turn his ass in. If my "friend" was stealing from my neighbor, why would I want him as a friend anyway? Whats to say he hasn't been stealing from me? Besides, you'd do for your neighbor what you would want your neighbor to do for you.

for some of us, what we own is what we base our lives on. how devastated would you be if you lost all of the data on your computer, because someone stole it. your saved works, be it your writing, music you make, photoshop productions, or spreadsheets for work, or the more sentimental photos over the last 10 years, emails, or home videos. (although strangely enough that's exactly what happened with pamela and tommy lee lol)

or maybe musical studio equipment, irreplacable records, and so on.

seriously if people stole stuff from me and my neighbor watched it, and did nothing, and I found out about it later, I'd want him charged as an accomplice.

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Old 08-28-2007, 02:19 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maleficent
the pertinent details...

Quote:
Genovese had driven home in the early morning of March 13, 1964. Arriving home at about 3:15 a.m. and parking about 100 feet (30 m) from her apartment's door, she was approached by Winston Moseley. Moseley ran after her and quickly overtook her, stabbing her twice in the back. When Genovese screamed out, her cries were heard by several neighbors; but on a cold night with the windows closed, only a few of them recognized the sound as a cry for help. When one of the neighbors shouted at the attacker, "Let that girl alone!", Moseley ran away and Genovese slowly made her way towards her own apartment around the end of the building. She was seriously injured, but now out of view of those few who may have had reason to believe she was in need of help.

Records of the earliest calls to police are unclear and were certainly not given a high priority by the police. One witness said his father called police after the initial attack and reported that a woman was "beat up, but got up and was staggering around." [5]

Other witnesses observed Moseley enter his car and drive away, only to return ten minutes later. He systematically searched the parking lot, train station, and small apartment complex, ultimately finding Genovese, who was lying, barely conscious, in a hallway at the back of the building. Out of view of the street and of those who may have heard or seen any sign of the original attack, he proceeded to further attack her, stabbing her several more times. Knife wounds in her hands suggested that she attempted to defend herself from him. While she lay dying, he sexually assaulted her. He stole about $49 from her and left her dying in the hallway. The attacks spanned approximately half an hour.

A few minutes after the final attack, a witness, Karl Ross, called the police. Police and medical personnel arrived within minutes of Ross' call; Genovese was taken away by ambulance and died en route to the hospital. Later investigation by police and prosecutors revealed that approximately a dozen (but almost certainly not the 38 cited in the Times article) individuals nearby had heard or observed portions of the attack, though none could have seen or been aware of the entire incident. [6] Only one witness (Joseph Fink) was aware she was stabbed in the first attack, and only Karl Ross was aware of it in the second attack. Many were entirely unaware that an assault or homicide was in progress; some thought that what they saw or heard was a lover's quarrel or a drunken brawl or a group of friends leaving the bar outside when Moseley first approached Genovese.
all someone had to do was call the cops, but no they had the "don't talk to the cops attitude," and someone lost their life. That was someone's family member, I hope that it's not ever yours or one of your friends. Simple burglary sometimes ends up in homicides. A call to the po po could avert that, but your pride gets in the way. It's on your head not mine thank goodness.
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Old 08-28-2007, 04:09 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
all someone had to do was call the cops, but no they had the "don't talk to the cops attitude," and someone lost their life. That was someone's family member, I hope that it's not ever yours or one of your friends. Simple burglary sometimes ends up in homicides. A call to the po po could avert that, but your pride gets in the way. It's on your head not mine thank goodness.
I don't know that you can chalk it up to a "don't talk to the cops attitude." I think that shit like this can happen, not necessarily because people don't want to talk to the cops, but because people think that someone else is going to call the cops.

That being said, i don't know if anyone here who is currently advocating discretion when it comes to calling the cops would have not called the cops in this particular instance for that particular reason. I don't know, though. Strange, roach, would you guys rather let someone get raped and murdered than call the cops? I imagine not, but you never know.

How about another tricky moral question: What if you saw someone breaking into your neighbor's house, called the cops, then found out after your neighbor gets arrested that your neighbor was engaged in some illegal, yet essentially harmless, activity that ended up getting exposed because you "did the right thing?" Your neighbor goes to prison because somebody wanted to steal his/her laptop and you wanted to do the right thing. Was it worth it? Is your neighbor glad that you were looking out for them?

I've had my shit stolen before and it sucked, but let me tell you, there are worse things that can happen; some of those things can be the direct result of the involvement of police officers. I'm not saying that calling the cops isn't necessary, or that i wouldn't do it if i saw someone breaking into somebody else's property, because i probably would. All i'm saying is that the decision should not be made without a little thought and that the police aren't always the right answer.
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Old 08-28-2007, 04:14 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by filtherton
How about another tricky moral question: What if you saw someone breaking into your neighbor's house, called the cops, then found out after your neighbor gets arrested that your neighbor was engaged in some illegal, yet essentially harmless, activity that ended up getting exposed because you "did the right thing?" Your neighbor goes to prison because somebody wanted to steal his/her laptop and you wanted to do the right thing. Was it worth it? Is your neighbor glad that you were looking out for them?
I think that's really reaching.

What if, what if? But to follow your own analogy:

What if a guy breaks into my neighbours house, I call the cops, the neighbour turns out to be Jeffrey Dahmer, boiling up little boys in his crockpot?

I guess I'm glad they're both going to jail, aren't you?
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Old 08-28-2007, 04:21 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Well, to be fair, the OP specifically stated that he wasn't talking about violent crime. I'll go out on a limb and assert that the people here saying they wouldn't call the cops were not talking about a violent crime.
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Old 08-28-2007, 04:41 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by highthief
I think that's really reaching.

What if, what if? But to follow your own analogy:

What if a guy breaks into my neighbours house, I call the cops, the neighbour turns out to be Jeffrey Dahmer, boiling up little boys in his crockpot?

I guess I'm glad they're both going to jail, aren't you?
I guess all those trees must be blocking your view of the forest.

The idea is that there isn't a clear moral decision to be made in the context of the question posed by the op if one's morals dictate that one attempt to do right by their neighbor. Is that more clear? The world is not black and white, and the best intentions don't always bring about the best results. The position that the morally superior person will always call the cops when witnessing a crime in progress(as seemingly advanced by some folks in this thread) is naive; the involvement of the police isn't necessarily going to make anything better.

Moral absolutes are teh lame.
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Old 08-28-2007, 05:27 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Filtherton, I'll bit and say that I'd call the cops, and I wouldn't feel too bad about the neighbor getting busted. It sucks for him and all, but that's part of the risk of breaking the law, even in innocuous ways. We all have our own tolerance level for that risk. Me, I jaywalk like a fiend in NYC because you never get ticketed. Here in LA, I toned it down.
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Old 08-28-2007, 05:46 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I'd probably do the same thing, uber.

All i'm saying is that prior and/or ensuing notions of moral superiority concerning calling the cops are misplaced. This isn't csi or law and order. There are a lot of cops who can be complete pieces of shit. Calling the cops in the wrong circumstances can make things worse for the wrong people.

For instance, in my city, 7 times out of 10 (anecdotally speaking), when the police are involved in a situation concerning a bicyclist and a motorist, regardless of the details, the motorist comes out on top in terms of legal sanctions. Unless there are serious injuries or you are particularly sympathetic to inattentive drivers, you might want to avoid involving the cops.
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Old 08-28-2007, 06:17 PM   #49 (permalink)
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I'll start off by saying that this thread seems like an attempt to justify past action and nullify guilt, or am attempt to find others who agree with what most you know in person consider a reprehensible action.

If I were to witness a crime that is clearly harmful to people other than the perpetrator (robbery has a victim, not turning in a wad of cash you found under a bush that will just go into the state coffers if turned in does not; selling harmful substances to children has a victim, selling to responsible adults and using drugs in the privacy of your own home does not,) I would immediately inform law enforcement.

In your scenario, I would do the following, in this order:

1: make sure that everyone in the house is safe and inform them that the neighbor is being robbed, then arm myself and others in the house for a worst-case scenario (home invasion,) instruct others in the house to move to a safe, easily-defensible area until I shout an all-clear code phrase or ask for help. Ask them to use cell phones to call neighbors and tell them to secure their houses and inform them of the situation. If they have the cell phone number of the neighbor who's being burglarized, call them and tell them it's not safe to come home at the moment.

2: secure my house (if it isn't already done,) to minimize the possibility of a home invasion: lock and bar doors and windows, and turn on motion-detector lights.

3: call the police, convey as much information as possible, and ask if 911 or another number should be used if I observe anything else that could help them. Inform them that I will watch from a safe part of my house, that I will inform neighbors, that I have secured my house but am armed in case of a home invasion, and that if the police need to contact me that they should park in my driveway with red/blue lights on, ring the doorbell, and wait for me to call the dispatcher to confirm that they have sent someone to my door, at which point I will secure any weapons and invite them in to the common area of the house.

4: get binoculars, a directional microphone, headphones, and a camera or video camera to record as much evidence as possible

5: observe and document the crime from a dark room through an open window that is far enough off the ground that someone cannot easily reach it and get in. Call police at the number they specified if I observe anything else that can help them apprehend the criminal more efficiently or safely.

6: if police come to my house: call the dispatcher to verify that they sent officers to my house, invite the officers into the common area of the house (living room and bathroom,) thank them for the quick response (average police response time in Fairfield: 1:45) put on a pot of coffee, provide them with any evidence I collected, provide any information they need related to the crime I witnessed, tell them how to contact me if they need further assistance, and get names, badge numbers, and business cards for each of them.

7: secure all doors and windows after police leave, turn on all outside lights, call neighbors to inform them of whether or not the suspect was caught, ask everyone to keep an eye out for anything suspicious for the next few weeks, especially if the suspect was not caught.

8: make a statement to be submitted to the court if necessary, testify in court if necessary, write a letter to the police chief expressing my satisfaction or dissatisfaction with how the incident was handled.
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Old 08-28-2007, 07:18 PM   #50 (permalink)
 
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look, folks, if you read my posts above you'll find that i said pretty clearly where the line is for me between what i would report and what i would not.

the relevant sentences are those that begin with community norms being violated. i said i would report a burglary or other violations, particularly of persons. i indicated that i might be ambivalent about it as well. so i made another post that explained why i might be ambivalent.

here's a summary of that one:

i was burglarized in philadelphia and i lost a computer and backup that cost me two fucking years worth of work.
two fucking years. a nearly complete book. something that could have had a significant impact on my professional life. something i devoted an ENORMOUS amount of time and effort to doing (this last bit i didnt put in).
gone.
gone because i went to dinner at the wrong time.

furthermore i said that the cops, which i called, did nothing.
fuck all.
and THAT explains the ambivalence.

[[btw: i dont talk about this much. apparently i still get angry about it.]]

the other side of the line--and i made this quite clear as well if you read the post----is the police in their explicitly political functions. in that area, i would never turn in anyone to the cops.
now within this, there are obviously separations that i would make, but i didnt talk about them.

so if you want to debate with me, try again.
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Old 08-29-2007, 04:12 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by roachboy
furthermore i said that the cops, which i called, did nothing.
fuck all.
and THAT explains the ambivalence.
But when you are working with the police to investigate a burglary, it is to assist the victim, not the police. Keeping this attitude won't make what happened two years ago any better.
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Old 08-29-2007, 05:24 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by filtherton
I guess all those trees must be blocking your view of the forest.

The idea is that there isn't a clear moral decision to be made in the context of the question posed by the op if one's morals dictate that one attempt to do right by their neighbor. Is that more clear? The world is not black and white, and the best intentions don't always bring about the best results. The position that the morally superior person will always call the cops when witnessing a crime in progress(as seemingly advanced by some folks in this thread) is naive; the involvement of the police isn't necessarily going to make anything better.

Moral absolutes are teh lame.
No, I think your analogy was simply lame but I tried to answer anyway.

Calling the cops when you witness a crime (and let's say a crime of a serious nature, the type for which you will do time, not jaywalking or smoking a joint but burglary certainly qualifies) is ALWAYS the correct course of action, ethically and legally.
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Old 08-29-2007, 07:13 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by highthief
No, I think your analogy was simply lame but I tried to answer anyway.
Maybe it was lame, in any case, you get the point after i clarified, right? Or was that lame too?

Quote:
Calling the cops when you witness a crime (and let's say a crime of a serious nature, the type for which you will do time, not jaywalking or smoking a joint but burglary certainly qualifies) is ALWAYS the correct course of action, ethically and legally.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but you might want to refine your definition of "serious" if you're going to use absolute words like always. Otherwise, your position is essentially, "It is always legally and ethically correct to call the cops when you witness a crime that i consider serious, and by serious i mean something completely arbitrary." Which is just another way of saying, "I only call the cops when i think i should call the cops," which itself is completely trivial and obvious. I only call the cops when i think i should too, i only eat when i want to and it is [/b]ALWAYS[/b] the correct course of action.



What i'm trying to say is that, not only are there many different cases where involving the police could make the situation worse for everyone involved, there are also people for whom a very legitimate distrust of the police requires them to handle things without them. These people aren't cowards, as you seemed to try to imply earlier, they just have a different perspective than you.

Here's an anecdote: A good friend of mine was disciplining his daughter on a sidewalk the other day and he said something she didn't want to hear so she took off. Right towards the street. So he grabbed her, in the way that you grab someone who's running into a busy street. It probably didn't look very comfortable, and he probably started loudly telling her what a bad idea running into the street was. Some lady walking by decided that he was in he process of physically and mentally abusing her. The lady got involved, repeatedly asked him if he watched dr. phil, and whether he knew that children need to be heard. My friend essentially told the lady to fuck off, mind her own business, so she called the cops. To her, it had gotten to the point where it was "serious" enough, that her commitment to ethical and legal behavior required her to call the police.

Thankfully, the cop who showed up wasn't a complete tool, because he recognized the situation for what it was. Another possible outcome is that a cop shows up, takes the lady's side, initiates social services intervention, and my friend has to go to court for disciplining his daughter in front of someone who watches dr. phil.

So, by all means, call the cops when you think you should, most people do. Just don't delude yourself that you're always doing anybody a favor.
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:46 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by filtherton
So, by all means, call the cops when you think you should, most people do. Just don't delude yourself that you're always doing anybody a favor.
I would think I am always doing society a favour. Yes, I may think about helping out my singular neighbour whose house is being robbed, but the larger picture is I can get a scumbag criminal off the streets and make my own little part of society and my neighbourhood better in doing so. I don't see a downside to that.

As to what people should consider serious, I think that any crime for which the prepetrator would receive jail time is serious. Ergo, smoking a joint, littering, or driving without a seatbelt aren't serious and probably the majority of people would go along with that.

Any form of theft or assault is serious.
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Old 08-29-2007, 09:20 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by highthief
I would think I am always doing society a favour. Yes, I may think about helping out my singular neighbour whose house is being robbed, but the larger picture is I can get a scumbag criminal off the streets and make my own little part of society and my neighbourhood better in doing so. I don't see a downside to that.
Well, it's nice when things are that cut and dry, but not all criminals are actually scumbag criminals, some are just good people making honest mistakes, some have families who might be better off with a criminal for a parent than a convict for a parent. Life isn't like t.v., it's a lot messier.

Quote:
As to what people should consider serious, I think that any crime for which the prepetrator would receive jail time is serious. Ergo, smoking a joint, littering, or driving without a seatbelt aren't serious and probably the majority of people would go along with that.

Any form of theft or assault is serious.
But you admit that your definition is completely arbitrary, right? In some states, stealing a candy bar could get you serious jail time, if it happens to be your third strike; do you call the cops on candy bar thieves? How can you even begin to try and claim absolute moral authority here?
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:21 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by filtherton
Well, it's nice when things are that cut and dry, but not all criminals are actually scumbag criminals, some are just good people making honest mistakes, some have families who might be better off with a criminal for a parent than a convict for a parent. Life isn't like t.v., it's a lot messier.
Well, no - anyone breaking into a house, to use the original analogy, is a scumbag criminal. Scumbag, bad person, not getting into heaven, pick your description. There's no shades of grey here. Someone takes a deliberate action they know to be seriously illegal and which will (if they successful) inflict significant harm on someone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by filtherton
But you admit that your definition is completely arbitrary, right? In some states, stealing a candy bar could get you serious jail time, if it happens to be your third strike; do you call the cops on candy bar thieves? How can you even begin to try and claim absolute moral authority here?
It's not arbitrary at all - I do not know the laws in the US, but in Canada we have summary and indictable offenses. Summary offences are typically things you would get a fine for or perhaps a few months in prison. Indictable offences get you years in jail and are also crimes for which citizens are entitled to make arrests. So, when I speak of "serious" I refer to indictable offences. I know the laws of my country and my "arbitrary" line is anything but. The laws of the US are of no concern to me unless I'm in that country on business or otherwise.
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Old 08-29-2007, 01:08 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Well, no - anyone breaking into a house, to use the original analogy, is a scumbag criminal. Scumbag, bad person, not getting into heaven, pick your description. There's no shades of grey here. Someone takes a deliberate action they know to be seriously illegal and which will (if they successful) inflict significant harm on someone else.
Again, you're entitled to your opinion. It doesn't really matter to me all that much. I know people who have broken into places where they didn't belong to take things that didn't belong to them. You might, whilst completely ignorant of any other detail about their existence, call them a scumbag, that's fine. It doesn't mean that your proclamation has any value or any relevance in regards to reality.

Certainly there are a lot of people who do commit crimes like burglary who are scumbags, but the fact that they have broken into a house isn't what makes them so, unless you're aiming to include b&e in the definition of scumbag. This would be novel.

Quote:
It's not arbitrary at all - I do not know the laws in the US, but in Canada we have summary and indictable offenses. Summary offences are typically things you would get a fine for or perhaps a few months in prison. Indictable offences get you years in jail and are also crimes for which citizens are entitled to make arrests. So, when I speak of "serious" I refer to indictable offences. I know the laws of my country and my "arbitrary" line is anything but. The laws of the US are of no concern to me unless I'm in that country on business or otherwise.
The fact that there are laws for which you would call the cops and laws for which you wouldn't makes your decision arbitrary. Your decision to defer to a list of indictable offenses is arbitrary. Unless you have no discretion whatsoever when it comes to calling the police, your actions are based on your own personal preferences and are therefore, by definition, arbitrary.

I don't want to get into a semantical discussion here, so if that's where you're planning on taking this, don't bother.

If you can't see where i'm coming from that's fine. I can accept that. On this particular subject you see things in black and white, and all i'm trying to point out is that one can't make credible absolute proclamations from a subjective perspective. Especially when you can't even admit that your perspective is subjective.
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Old 08-29-2007, 04:00 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I think it's all based on location. In some places, talking with the police, even if you're just an uninvolved witness does put your life in jeopardy. This is one of the contributing factors to cities like Newark having a high homicide rate and a low conviction rate. Witness intimidation is bad enough that the district attorney won't prosecute a suspect if their case has only one witness because they always retract their statement at the trial, resulting in an acquittal.

With Witnesses At Risk, Murder Suspects Go Free   click to show 


This 'no snitch' campaign is alive and well, and is a serious problem.
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Old 08-30-2007, 04:03 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by filtherton
I know people who have broken into places where they didn't belong to take things that didn't belong to them. You might, whilst completely ignorant of any other detail about their existence, call them a scumbag, that's fine.
I do know people who broke into people's houses. They're scumbags. They went on to other crimes and now they're dead, car wrapped around an oak tree while fleeing from the cops. Good riddance to bad rubbish, you know?

But whatever, quite obviously the overwhelming majority of the poll respondents are sure of their morals and ethics and what is right and what is wrong. And that is great to see, even if a few people adhere stubbornly to straddling the fence.
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Old 08-30-2007, 04:32 AM   #60 (permalink)
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But whatever, quite obviously the overwhelming majority of the poll respondents are sure of their morals and ethics and what is right and what is wrong. And that is great to see, even if a few people adhere stubbornly to straddling the fence.
If you can't be bothered to try to understand what i'm talking about then there really isn't any point continuing this conversation.
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Old 09-10-2007, 08:07 PM   #61 (permalink)
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The scenario in the OP is a little strange to me. If I was aware there was a crime going on, I'd report it right then. When the police came to me they'd likely already know who I was because of my report, and I'd be glad to answer any related questions that they had.
I don't know why anybody would tell the police nothing. Unless the police were being total assholes (which I've never seen happen when they're gathering information after an actual crime has occurred) there is no reason to stay quiet.
Unfortunately there are many instances when the police might be questioning people before they fully understand what's going on. In those cases most police are rude and intrusive, presumably because you're a potential criminal and they just don't care to be friendly. It's too bad that those situations exist, but they do. I don't cooperate in any way if police are out of line and don't care to listen to reason.
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Old 09-10-2007, 09:54 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
agreed.

I don't find many crimes acceptable.

I recall you find it acceptable to be "mugged" so long as there isn't any physical harm. I find emotional harm to be equally unacceptable since it persists long after the physical crime.

I still think of the time I was 16 and held up at gunpoint. Was I physically hurt? No, but I have been emotionally damaged to some degree since I still recall that traumatic moment. My employers even thought it emotionally traumatic enough to give me several days off paid.

I'm no snitch meaning I'm not going to complain about you living next to me being a pot smoker or heroine addict. I will however start to complain if unsavory types seem to come in and out at all hours of the day and night.

But I have spoken to police on occassion when people were smoking pot and shooting up at Venice Beach, CA right in the middle of the boardwalk. It is completely inappropriate behavior for the location. I didn't go out of my way, nor would I. They just happened to be walking next to me patrolling. I stopped to let them know of something going on.

So if you are dealing drugs in a neighborhood visibly, standing on the corner, I'm probably going to call the cops on you. Doing it descreetly from your home? Maybe not so much, again, it will depend on how much you impinge on the quality of life that my living space/building requires.

But when cops inquire about what you are doing, coming and going. I'm pretty much going to tell them what I've observed based on how I am asked. If the officer is a dick to me, probably not going to tell him anything.
Perfectly stated CYN - I agree on every level even though I know several police officers and FBI agents. Believe me I'm no angel and neither are they. But just like being a parent some acts can be excused but egregous acts should be punished.
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troit is offline  
Old 09-10-2007, 10:22 PM   #63 (permalink)
Insane
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strange Famous

I'm sorry, but thats genuinely disturbing.

__

And my house got burgled this year in case anyone thinks I am just naive about it.
its an industrial property, so every once in a while, the place will get hit hard, and repeatedly. over the last couple of years, people have probably stolen $30,000 worth of stuff and caused another $15,000 in property damage getting the stuff.

I've had my house broken into...but that wasnt nearly as exciting as living with a theif for about a decade growing up.

there's nothing quite like having countless things that you worked hard for go missing...(step brother) this guy would steal whatever he could get his hands on (his father's wedding ring, grandparents stuff, my stuff, his real brothers stuff, strangers stuff)...anyway I presume he blew alot of it on drugs, or whatever. I have somewhat of a "special" hatred for people who make their living by stealing.

anyway, I saw him make his bed as he was growing up, and no matter what bullshit revelation he claimed to have (jesus, whatever)...he just went back to being the same old crook.

he's been in the state pen for the last decade. some people just dont change...and dont have a right to exist in society.
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