Dealing with Illegal Behavior in neighborhood...
 

Recently, we've had some issues with drug dealers and dice throwers around my work building. As the resident "solution to everything guy", I was put in charge of dealing with the problem.

Not 20 minutes ago, we had a group of maybe 10-12 young people throwing dice in front of my business with large wads of cash in hand. My response was to simply walk out there, give them a friendly look and most left. One decided to be confrontational as he said something under his breath and didn't leave. I turned towards him, gave him a respectful smile and made strong eye contact. He gave me a few weak profanities and caught up to the group, which had simply moved down the block a building.

I'm trying to decide what the best course of action would be with this type of situation. Obviously, if they're dealing drugs the prudent response is to call the police, especially considering that they're not just selling bud anymore, and have graduated to crack. With the people who are just essentially loitering, I think calling the cops would not only be overkill, but it would invite a response. Judging by the confrontational nature of the alpha-person, I get the impression it could invite vandalism (as we've had in the past) or worse: violence. I'd rather have a situation where we can part ways amicably. Instead of inviting escalation, I want to present a situation where they leave feeling comfortable. My first thought went to positive reinforcement, but that's difficult without seeming condescending. Offering to buy them all lunch was the first thing that came into my mind, as there's a McDonald's right across the street.

Anyone have any ideas? I'll call the cops if necessary, but I like being able to solve these thins myself.

Ask the police to just cruise by and increase their presence in your area.

It works wonders.

I don't suppose that "dump them in the river for the betterment of society" is a plausible option? (yes I'm kidding, kinda)

My inclination would be to come up with a possible change of venue for them, but it seems that they're drifting to begin with so I'm not so sure how well that would work out for you.

Secondary to that, is putting them to work an option? Or maybe even just a couple of them? A decent job, if it's available, might engender some loyalty that could help dissuade any negative reaction.

Buy them lunch so that they can vadalize your place on a full stomach.

I'd go with letting the police know that people are loitering in the vicinity of your building.

Will, it sounds like you are handling it well so far and with prudence.

Calling the cops would be good because at least you can get documentation and start a paper trail. If you can, start a neighbor hood watch (in pairs at least) to continue monitoring and continue a paper trail. If you document the comings and goings, you will at least have something to use to give the police or court if it came down to it. Also notifying the police is good to show that you are doing everything by the book.

I like your approach of firm but polite (friendly). I too, would be concerned about inviting backlash. Continue the "killing with kindness approach" and stay firm.

Another option is to install cameras to reinforce your neighborhood watch.

All these things taken together can be quite effective I think.

Presence is effective. The more neighbors that gather outdoors together, he more of a presence you will build and the unwelcome guests will leave naturally.

I don't think you should buy them lunch, that would be overkill.

What about hiring a security guard?

Good luck!

That has been a common discussion with the other business owners on our block, as the crack problem must be stopped before a sizable consumer base is allowed to grow. There's no love loss with the drug dealers. It's the loiterers that I'm not sure about.
You wouldn't be the first to recommend that.
Very few places want illegal gambling. It'd be a lot easier if they just wanted to shoot hoops or something.
I'm trying to get access to our funds available for intern positions, but there is a lot of red tape, and I have a strong suspicion I met people with priors this morning. That's a very good idea, though. I'll explore that further.
I don't think that they'd really be looking for retribution after an act of random kindness.
That doesn't really solve anything. We've had the police drive by. They disperse, then come right back. It's a bluff long since called.

Jorg always has a kind word. Thanks!
A neighborhood watch is an excellent idea. I'd be a lot more comfortable if we could have groups of ten, though. I suppose police notification is starting to look like a must in this situation.
I also considered joining in the game, losing on purpose, and then letting them know that this isn't the appropriate place for that sort of things with a rapport already built.
We installed the fake cameras (don't tell anyone!) and we put up gates which keep them out of the parking lot and courtyard.
A security guard would be complicated. We cater to a lot of low income and even homeless people here, and the last thing we want to do is scare off the people we're here to help.

Thanks for the ideas!

1) I think it's waaaay better on several levels to employ people who are, I dunno, actually looking and applying for jobs.

2) Sorry, but pullleasse! I suspect they'll think you're an especially soft target. Unless you put glass in the food.

3) See #2.

4) I'd think that a band of shiftless, gambling loiterers camped on the doorstep are much more likely to scare away people of any income level than a security guard.

I vote for hiring a security guard.

Stuff like this is the first step. It's like when windows are broken in an empty house and not fixed--it leads to more and much more. Better to take care of things decisively right off the bat, rather than waiting for it to escalate.

I've also learned that from my divorce in progress, heh.

Fake cameras, with really big red lights.

Seriously. Cameras scare the shit out of criminals, especially very visible ones.

Fake cameras are cheap (really cheap), but if you can afford it, get real cameras.

I sure as hell wouldn't do a drug deal in front of cameras I thought were real; nor would I vandalize.

I've already got fake cameras.

Alright, I've contacted the police and the SJ Downtown Association.

The internship is a bad idea. If they are selling crack, you can't match what they earn. Invite a military recruiter to talk to them. :)

I don't know if it is possible, but dogs scare criminals more than cameras do. Believe it or not, criminals can spot fake cameras. That or the criminals are too stupid to notice them. Obviously, they aren't working. And your money would be better spent buying the police lunch rather than the punks.

Another thing to do is shake them down. Get someone to flash a fake badge and take their money and crack. (Sounds good in theory, don't really try this or things would escalate to violence quickly)

You're awfully ballsy for someone without a peice Will.

:p


Other than calling the cops, I dont know what you could do....if they're already engaging in illegal activities publicly, whats to stop them from beating you to a pulp. Seriously. Once you start with the police game I wouldnt linger around them too long, they're bound to figure it was you and then its on.

theres no good answer to this question.

Lol...I'm not afraid of them. I don't invite violence, but I'm not likely to back down. I've had my ass kicked before. If they want to invite assault charges instead of just loitering, that's their decision.
Seems fair.

Mebbe its time for your organization to have its very own Rent-A-Cop. Or, if your company is Leasing its office space, get the building owners involved.
edit: Rent-a-cops come in many flavors, you can request that they make changes to their attire for the sake of your clientelle, or however you spell it.

It's a good idea, but we try to have as small an overhead as possible when it comes to delivering everything to the people who need help. Creating a position, even near minimum wage, would not only be complicated, but it would take away from the services we give to those in need.

If I give you $5, can you come by with a shotgun and scare them? :lol:

This makes some more sense now, they're outside of your business because they (and I'm just guessing here) are not readily distinguishable from your clients. Sound about right, mebbe?

Honestly dude, I'd scare the bejeesus out of them for free, but CA being what it is, they'd haul my ass in :(

My buddy is a social worker in RI, he mentioned a similar problem, I'll pump him for some info.

That would make sense, but these people are wearing pretty expensive Sean John and Ecko clothing. They have access to money (albeit money that may be from illicit activities, I couldn't say). My concern is 1) not inviting a negative response because they'll know who called the cops and 2) not simply giving up on the situation. I like solving these kinds of things on my own and only being dependent on the police when absolutely necessary. Maybe I read too many Spider-man comics when I was younger. I dunno.
Yeah, sorry about that. The people who vote here don't like guns. It's nothing personal, I can assure you.
Awesome. Thanks!

That's my suggestion, as well. If you do not own the building, then the people who are ultimately responsible for keeping it safe are the building owners. You could notify them of the problem and let them handle it however they wish (including hiring a security guard, installing real cameras, etc). That's technically the owner's responsibility, not yours. Even though you're the one who's there every day and will actually have to deal with them.

And if the owner chooses to call the cops on them and the ruffians say something to you about it, you can always play dumb and be like, "dude, it wasn't me! The owner called the cops!" :lol:

We are the owners.

Well, in that case... I doubt the ruffians know that.

It's always my MO to blame someone "above" me when I have to give the bad news to anyone. "It's not me, it's them. My hands are tied by policy." etc. I know that it's dishonest (to a degree, usually it's true to at least some extent), but it keeps relations smooth and it's a white lie.

The only person really above me is the President (of the company, not the US).

I don't want to sidestep. I'm fine walking right up to them and saying "Get lost." (because I'm in a 1970s PSA), it's just that I don't want to come back the next day to find broken windows. I'll get pissed, turn vigilante, and they'll all end up in a Mexican prison before they know what hit them. No one wants that.

You could also get your alderman involved. If they don't get involved, you can call them out in the media via op-eds in the local paper. The alderman can probably get more action out of the police than you can.

I've got it. We import rednecks from the wilds of Montana.

Nothing is scarier than a guy wearing jeans, red suspenders, and a John Deere hat :lol:

(goes into booth, votes for FLAMETHROWER)

... what?

To be honest, and knowing your pacifistic nature and worship of Gandhi, you don't sound too convincing. You're no James Bond or Charles Bronson, and these aren't Dr. No's fold-away thugs, so leave these things to the professionals: let the cops handle this one. Go ahead and bring them a few happy meals to tide them over if you must, but I would stop with the "strong eye contact" and "friendly looks". That kind of provocation with the criminal element will get you a one-way ticket to the nearest intensive care unit, best case scenario.

That's probably because I was being sarcastic. Or do you actually think that these people would surface after a few days in a Mexican prison?
You're right, I'm not James Bond or Charles Brosnan. I don't use a gun, and I have many years of fight training. I doubt Charles ever took Krav Maga. Still, I'd only use them if attacked, and I'd only stop them. I'd never attack, and I wouldn't really hurt them unless it was necessary.
That's just the thing, though. It's not provocation. It's simple, respectful, non-verbal communication for "clear out". If all it's going to take is a look, then the only real way to avoid confrontation is to sit in my office hoping the PD can actually do something besides asking them to disperse.

Boiling oil?

FINALLY SOME IDEAS.

Now all I need is a cauldron.

1 rusty .38 bullet > lifetime of Krav Maga study
Is boiling oil effective as a crowd dispersant?

It's great if a bunch of motherfuckers are storming your castle.

Excellent. I like the idea of exposing the criminal element to waves of third degree searing hellfire.
I've found quite a few nice ones on google.

http://www.mariquita.com/events/Jess...heCauldron.jpg

I asked my buddy, he did'nt have anything serious to add.

But he did suggest supplying some homeless people with meth and nightsticks. Street justice is a bitch.

You missed the point. A better comparison to me would have been someone who doesn't use guns. I never suggested nor do I think that I could punch faster than a trigger could be pulled. Believe it or not, this isn't a pissing contest. If it were, I would have attacked the alpha before he could draw his weapon and broken his collar bones. See? Pissing contests are overt.


ziadel: ROFL...street justice.

stink bombs? razor wire? paint it bright pink? some fake blood on the sidewalk and some spent shells?


I'm a tad early but i want to head it all off... happy birthday will!

Lol, thanks Dil.

it just came to me right now... fake dog shit.

Inexpensive, funny, effective. Maybe a cauldron of fake dog poop.

or, maybe, leave some fake stuff there for a few day's until they get use to it pick it up and throw it, then, one day switch to the real stuff :)

Four words:

Really. Loud. Polka. Music.

Brilliant!!! Just make sure that they can't disable the speaker and it won't violate any noise ordinances. I suggest the gayest musical you can find.

OK, there's your heavy guns right there.
Show no mercy!

Brilliant, indeed and it will absolutely work. As long as these guys have no vested interest in the particular area (meaning they can run dice and drugs elsewhere with little problem) then I imagine it would be easier to move down the block or across the way than put up with the hassle.

Back in my restaurant days, if we wanted to get rid of "undesirables"--disruptive groups of teenagers, obnoxious drunks, etc.--we'd crank up whatever lame ass music we could find on the dial and pump it through the speaker system.

I love him, but, sadly, Billy Joel's stuff seemed the most effective. Maybe a little 52nd Street will clear out your street....or something, the hook it eludes me...

I'll be blasting Piano Man as soon as they get here. Thanks for the ideas!

Why don't you try one of these:

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thu...banana_gun.jpg

DUAL BARREL!!
http://www.filmfodder.com/movies/rev...hing_tiger.jpg

Or if that fails, you can always blast some Beach Boys while pointing one of these at the leader:

http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/76ItK27BK_1.jpg

I don't know. There's always that certain element of society that if you push the wrong buttons, they could very well end up shooting you. That wouldn't be such a great response.

"Thanks for the replies, guys. I played really loud polka music and he pulled out a gun and shot me."

or

"Thanks for the replies, guys. I put fake poop on the ground for 4 days. On the 5th day I put real poop on the ground. He got mad and shot me."

It could happen.

Why would one do that? Will bought them lunch first, you know random act of kindness...

I'm still left wondering how reasonable it is to assume one would pull a gun. God knows we hear enough about 'gangs' and 'unidentified black males' on the news, but when statistics come down to it, I'm more likely to die from heart disease or an auto accident than being shot. I still eat pork and drive my car (and when I really want to have fun, I do both at once!). That's why I wasn't afraid. Not only that, but so long as you don't respond in kind, even the most riffy of the raf will leave you be if they know you're not going to continue the posturing. I don't posture. It's not in my nature.

I think you have too much trust in people, will.

Wait, haven't I read somewhere before that you've both died and been shot?

Dude, if you've better odds dying of heart disease, I'd say you better get to a doctor, and quick. But take the bus.

But back on track...I don't posture, either, but there have been numerous times I've been threatened, approached, whatever, even though I was minding my own business. So either you live in the friendliest, most conscientious gangland ever, or something about this isn't meshing.

Let your local cops who patrol the area know that you have fresh hot coffee for them whenever they wish along with....wait for it....DOUGHNUTS.

That always worked for us on lower Mission St. in SF when we had loiterers on one of our doorsteps. (And the cops loved us.)

Brownsville, Brooklyn or South Bronx. Can't even ask someone for the time without them fronting on some shit.

I'm hardly in the Bronx. San Jose is a relatively safe large city. It's one of the reasons I live here. Now if only it could be 10 degrees cooler...

I'd have to say that if you simply keep on going out there and politely bother them away a few times they aren't too likely to return. Nobody likes to be annoyed, or put in an awkward situation. Most humans of all classes and backgrounds employ a rationale; committing crimes doesn't generally exclude one from the truism, although it means their rationale is different from yours.

The reason I say that they are likely to leave is because you mentioned they were young. If they're of high school age or pretty close to it that's good. In a group that size there's bound to be at least 3 or 4 that will have a hard time even making eye contact with you. If the group as a whole is not moving, you can take a gander at these few individuals. They're likely to leave first and the group will probably disperse afterwards.

I also don't think you’ll encounter any violence that’s directed towards you (vandalism, on the other hand, idk). The most feasible scenario in which I think violence is likely to occur is if one of the members of the group tries to impress the others. This would probably be an inexperienced fighter who may simply walk up and try to punch you. If they’re truly inexperienced he won’t try to hit you squarely on the chin and he’ll go for somewhere around the lower jaw. His expectation would be that you’ll fall like a sack of potatoes to the ground. You wrote that you had fight training, evaluate the situation to see how much danger you’re really in. If he hesitates then lunge forward and he’ll flinch. You probably won’t even need to attack him, and if anyone in the group asks why you didn’t fight back all you need to state is, “There are 10 of you guys, there is only one of me”. They’re likely to accept this and just leave. (BTW, something very similar to what I describe above actually happened to me, so I’m not trying to bs you, but I’m also not an expert. I’m quite a pacifist, yet, somehow, I’ve been around some pretty volatile situations in my childhood and adolescence)

Sound advice. They are maybe a little over high school age, a few years my junior. I can defend myself, but I would view the situation as a magnificent failure if it came to a physical altercation. My goal would be them leaving without ill will. Ill Will is my other nickname, btw. Calling the cops strikes me not only as cowardly, but the cops already have their hands full and can't park out in front of the building every night.

Thanks for the advice!

A "no brainer", will.... you simply need professional help, and the money you pay, goes to a good cause:

A-Team?

Okay, nevermind. After reading most of this thread more carefully, I've realized there are a lot of Dwight Schrutes running around.

Without the mention of Ninjas or secret military training, this can't be 100% Dwight.

Right... but the differences in probability skew drastically when you walk up to a group of street gamblers/drug dealers with the desire to tell them "what's what". :)

What I mean is that assuming they are murderers or violent criminals isn't necessarily reasonable.

Listen man, with luck my court nonsense will be over very soon, then I'll come up there and take care of this.


/yes I'm very serious
//no I wont shoot them
///or even brandish a weapon.
////I am Ahab.
/////Degenerate douche bags are my white whale
//////yeah, I fark too much.

No one's a murderer until they've killed their first. ;)

Sure, I guess when you are swiming with sharks one can just pretend they are dolphins.

That's an excellent comparison. Sharks are scary as fuck, but the reality is that they almost never attack (less than 100 total annually, 30 times more likely to be hit by lightning than bitten by a shark). So long as you respect them, you're not really in danger.

It's really nothing, plus this is an interesting situation. I hope you'll keep us informed. As an aside, they were doing a small piece on phobias on the news because of the whole bridge collapse and how bridge phobia is a top 10 phobia of people in the US. I think they said that fear of strangers was on the top 10 according to some government statistic as well. I found that interesting, although, I’m slightly confused as to where they got their statistics from, the show was Good Morning America so I think it might be trustworthy enough. Personally, I’d have never thought there were that many people afraid of bridges.

There you go with those statistics again. May I reiterate my earlier thread? I think you may have missed it. If you've both died and been shot, then you should really stay away from saying things like: I'm 10,000 times more likely to choke on chocolate than be attacked by a shark.

And respecting sharks? What, you mean like ask it casually and coolly to go hunt in someone else's waters? What if it's a drug dealing, dice rolling shark? How do you respect a shark that don't respect the law?

Or, do you mean respect the shark by realizing you're in its territory and you have to obey its laws? Wouldn't that follow that you should then bring out some crack and dice with you next time you approach those hoodlums dealing dice and throwing crack outside your business?

You know the fact that those things have happened to me doesn't change the odds of it happening again. If I won the lottery, my odds would still be the same if I played the lottery again.
I mean understanding how to treat them. You don't swim up to a shark and punch it in the face. You swim in a group, stay close to shore, don't swim at night, don't swim if bleeding, and don't splash a lot. Likewise, there are reasonable steps that can be taken to not provoke the anger and possible violence of young people throwing dice.

no, you punch it in the eye.


they dont like that.

Bullshit. Your cover's blown, Cheney.
If they're selling crack, it's a pretty good guess.'



edit: nobody argues with tear gas.

Beat me to it. willravel, you really need to just call the cops. If that doesn't work call them again. If that doesn't work call ziadel.

Just invite all the unruly elements over to my neighborhood.

They're probably my joes from Bragg. Damn soldiers outta control!

Those fuckers need to get back in uniform and get a haircut for formation.

(hangs head)

is there something in particular to your area that makes it nicer for them to hang out there? shady tree? benches? if there is get rid of it.

also you said they were youngish? There is a range of sound that is audible to most kids and teens that most people above their mid 20s are unable to hear, and its really high pitched and annoying. heres a link, might be worth trying out.

http://www.compoundsecurity.co.uk/te..._products.html

Well they like the steps, but so do we. Also, I'm 24.

They've not come back, so hopefully it took care of itself.

you should Put up a small booth in front of your building, hire someone to sit In it and play loud country music,polka and yodelling all day, and have them announce every song over a megaphone. i give them 2 days before they either destroy the booth (earning criminal charges) or relocate

edit: nm :expressionless:

mate, rule number ONE is "dont talk to police"

I mean, if its a rape, or an assault or murder of a young kid or a woman, then it is okay, but in no other circumstances do you really want to be talking to the police. If people find out, I think its a lot more dangerous situation for you than having people deal drugs out the building.

There is a guy who sells drugs lives two doors away from me, and I would never dream about snitching... if I had a problem I'd handle it myself.