Bad News about one of my pups - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Average_Joe · 01-05-2007, 10:17 AM

My 9 week old Sheltie-mix pup was acting very sick and disoriented earlier this week, so we took it to the vet for some help. It turns out that he may have a liver shunt, which is a serious condition that may be causing toxic buildup, that is normally taken care of in the liver, to bypass the liver altogether and reach the brain and other organs. I did some research online and it seems like there are 2 ways to deal with this: either through risky, expensive surgery or through diet and medicine.

Right now we are debating what to do for the pup. We can either spend the money on the surgery, testing, and recovery costs that would run anywhere from $2000 to $5000, try a prescribed diet plan that would reduce the amount of toxic waste produced by the body, or put him down (the vet's advice). Right now, I'm leaning toward trying the diet approach, but it may not be successful and may cause further harm to the dog.

This may not be a common problem to most of you fellow pet owners, but I would greatly appreciate some advice about how to handle this problem.
Has anyone had a dog with a liver shunt? If so what did you do?
Has anyone had a pet with a physical defect that required special attention, surgery, or euthanasia?

I promise not to judge any decisions you made, only take them as advice.

ShaniFaye · 01-05-2007, 11:05 AM

I dont have any advice for you, the only animals I ever had to put down were two cats within 6 months of each other (while pregnant) for feline luekemia, I just wanted to say I know this wont be an easy decision for you and my heart goes out to you in having to deal with this

shakran · 01-05-2007, 01:40 PM

Why was the vet's advice to put the dog down? Is it just because the vet feels it's not worth the money or the time to treat the dog, or is there another reason?

Elphaba · 01-05-2007, 01:52 PM

Joe, I'm so sorry that you are facing this with one of your new pups. Hub and I have spent insane amounts on the medical care of our pets, but only once did we have to put down a relatively young dog due to a poor prognosis. It broke our hearts.

You might consider the change of diet as an intermediate measure, and if that fails, follow your vet's advice. It's a tough decision and I feel for you.

Pen

Acetylene · 01-05-2007, 02:46 PM

My Sheltie had an autoimmune disorder that eventually killed her when she was 6. But before that happened, I kept her alive and happy for almost her entire life by making homemade food for her that would prevent symptoms. My father had a cat with liver failure that made it for 5 more happy years with homemade food, as well.

Try the diet route. Animals do not suffer from disease as badly as we do, because they live in the "now". They don't wish they were better or worry about getting worse, they just live their lives. Don't give up on your puppy! If the time comes to put him down, HE will let you know. At the very least, the diet might buy you some time while you save up for the surgery (since it looks like shunts don't heal on their own).

Oh, and you might want to ask around for a better vet. No vet should be suggesting you put a dog down when there are other options. In fact, a GOOD vet will have financial options available, even if they will just accept postdated checks, specifically to avoid having to give up early on a dog that has a chance.

I always try to live my life with hindsight. Ten years from now, how will you feel about the decision you make now? Will you be proud of what you do? You might also ask yourself what lessons your kids will learn from this, which is likely to be an event they will remember for a long time.

What is this diet you are talking about here? Where did you find it?

Average_Joe · 01-07-2007, 07:31 PM

Thanks to all for your concerns. So far the new diet we put the pup on seems to be making a difference. He is no longer showing symptoms of toxicity in his blood and is as fiesty and chipper as ever. Hopefully, this diet will continue to work for a while.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

Why was the vet's advice to put the dog down? Is it just because the vet feels it's not worth the money or the time to treat the dog, or is there another reason?

I think the vet feels as though the operation may not be a simple one and has a high probablity of being unsuccessful. Honestly, I haven't had any in depth discussion about it with the vet. Perhaps he has seen his share of these cases before, I really don't know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acetylene

Try the diet route. Animals do not suffer from disease as badly as we do, because they live in the "now". They don't wish they were better or worry about getting worse, they just live their lives. Don't give up on your puppy! If the time comes to put him down, HE will let you know. At the very least, the diet might buy you some time while you save up for the surgery (since it looks like shunts don't heal on their own).

Oh, and you might want to ask around for a better vet. No vet should be suggesting you put a dog down when there are other options. In fact, a GOOD vet will have financial options available, even if they will just accept postdated checks, specifically to avoid having to give up early on a dog that has a chance.

I always try to live my life with hindsight. Ten years from now, how will you feel about the decision you make now? Will you be proud of what you do? You might also ask yourself what lessons your kids will learn from this, which is likely to be an event they will remember for a long time.

What is this diet you are talking about here? Where did you find it?

I feel the same way about this problem. I'm not the kind of person that gives up without a fight! So far the diet seems to be working, so I'm going with this for now. My only concern is whether or now the pup is suffering when his blood gets toxic. I don't know if it is painful or if it just makes him feel drunk or drugged.

The food I am giving the pup is from Hill's Prescription Diet pet food. It's a low protein diet that also contains some vitamins and nutrients that decrease toxicity in liver-diseased dogs. I also found a homemade meal recipe that I could try, but I would have to buy the vitamins and extras separately. The Hill's food is just more convenient for now.

Acetylene · 01-08-2007, 06:39 AM

Hey AJ,
I'm glad you are giving it a shot.

If he is in pain he will probably cry and lick or fuss with his paws over the area that hurts--for a sore head, he will rub it with his paws, for a sore belly he will lie curled up and lick himself or cry. To find out if your pup if suffering, find out how humans feel who have liver disease. Likely it is similar. But remember what I said about suffering--dog's don't "suffer" as much as we do because they have a sort of Buddhist-Zen attitude about the world and just accept everything that happens to them without getting all worked up about it. I feel strongly that they should be the ones to decide if their life is worth living--and I think they would almost always say "yes", as long as they are alive enough to feel the sun shine on their fur and know that you love them.

Quick word about diet--if you plan to feed the low-toxicity diet for a long time (either because you are saving up for the surgery or because you are hoping surgery won't be needed) you should be very careful about your puppy's nutritive needs. Low-protein diets might be tough for the pup to grow to full size and health at such a young age.

You might try replacing one meal a day with the homemade food, and either just barely cook the meat (make sure it's still VERY rare) or add a raw egg (you can get salmonella-free eggs from the Country Hen, they have a website so you can find a dealer). That would be easier than home-cooking ALL their meals, and also help make sure they can get all their vital amino acids, since raw or minimally-cooked proteins are more complete.

I noticed that egg is the protein used by your science diet kibble so maybe that would be the best choice if you can manage it. I also noticed that they are adding extra antioxidants, so I would recommend giving the puppy the occasional cherry tomato or piece of bell pepper if he will eat them--this is because the antioxidants in kibble and canned food are often lost or reduced in processing. Tomatoes and bell peppers are better sources of antioxidants than oranges and most dogs (that I have met) don't like oranges anyway. You can cook the bell peppers if he likes them better that way but the tomatoes should be raw. I get my dog to eat them by putting a little bit of lowfat mayonnaise on them, or you could try fat-free cream cheese (I think fat intake is supposed to be regulated, that's why fat-free).

Honestly I think kibble is just fine for dogs as long as it is supplemented effectively with fresh foods. For a normal dog you could just agg eggs and meat to the kibble without cooking anything special, but for your pup that would result in too much protein, so you would need to balance it with whatever starch your home recipe calls for, plus vitamins for nutritive balance.

Ooops, that wasn't a "quick word". Well, hope it helps.

Lady Sage · 01-15-2007, 02:36 PM

You have to do what you feel is right. You will have support along the way and/or many sympathetic ears/shoulders should you need them.

james t kirk · 01-15-2007, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acetylene

My Sheltie had an autoimmune disorder that eventually killed her when she was 6. But before that happened, I kept her alive and happy for almost her entire life by making homemade food for her that would prevent symptoms. My father had a cat with liver failure that made it for 5 more happy years with homemade food, as well.

Bingo.

My cat was supposed to be dead 2 years ago if I listened to that vet.

She's asleep in the bed in the next room.

I took her to see a vet who doesn't believe in processed pet food and started making her her own food out of chicken and some veggies or tuna and veggies.

See the other thread about pet food in this forum where I spouted off quite a bit on the evils of store bought poison, I mean store bought pet foods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Average_Joe

The food I am giving the pup is from Hill's Prescription Diet pet food. It's a low protein diet that also contains some vitamins and nutrients that decrease toxicity in liver-diseased dogs. I also found a homemade meal recipe that I could try, but I would have to buy the vitamins and extras separately. The Hill's food is just more convenient for now.

Stop feeding him Hills anything right now.

You just hit it right on the head when you stated that the Hills is more convienient.

That's all it is, other than that, it's poison.

I believe Hills is owned by Colgate Palmolive and is only interested in one thing - bottom line profit. They will do whatever they can to maximize their profit.

Pet foods ?

Doesn't get any easier to cut quality and corners does it?

I've posted tons of information here as to what I think about the commercial pet food industry.....

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=109562

You say you don't give up with out a fight. Well, start fighting.

Average_Joe · 02-01-2007, 10:39 AM

I just wanted to give an update in case anybody was wondering.

My little Sheltie pup, "Johnnie" is doing quite well. We have been feeding him the special dog food from Hills Prescription diet (sorry, JT Kirk) and he has been showing no symptoms of toxicity. His puppy energy has been restored, and he seems to be growing well. At first, the dog food made his BM's a bit erratic and loose, but even that has been much improved. Right now, he's a happy dog, and he is being trained without much of a problem.

Thanks for all your support and comments. I may continue to post an update from time to time.

JustJess · 02-01-2007, 10:51 AM

I know I'd love any updates you can throw this way - I've been following. And it's when people like you are taking good care of those dependant on them that I hope the human race isn't doomed or some such. Good work, and good luck to Johnnie!

Kandie · 03-29-2007, 02:01 PM

I found out when my Pug puppy was 2 months old that she had a liver Shunt..Ofcorse I couldnt risk the surgery..shes on medicine and special food and she is now 2 1/2 years old..She has her good days and her bad ones..she is VERY small(still looks like a pup) and VERY VERY thin..that is normal for dogs with this problem..I know she wont have a full healthy life but all I can do is love her for each and every day I have her..im just greatful Ive had her this long..the way the vet talked she was gonna die with in a few months. When I first found out she had a liver shunt i called Pug rescue to see if i could find out any more information on this..He told me that they just spent well over $3000.00 for the surgery for a pug and she passed 3 days later! That made up my mind right then and there not to get the surgery.This is a terrible disorder and heart breaking to make decisions on how to treat this. But I feel I did the right thing.

Average_Joe · 03-30-2007, 12:24 PM

Thanks for sharing your story, Kandie. It gives me lots of hope that Johnnie will be around for a while longer. We are always looking for signs that he is sick or going downhill, but so far, he has thrived on the special diet. Johnnie is also quite small, but he was also the runt of the litter, so I'm not really sure how big he would be if he was healthy and eating normal food. Last month he weighed 9 lbs. at 20 weeks old, while his brother was 21 lbs.

You mentioned that your Pug is on medicine and special food. Would you mind sharing this info with me? I may look for an alternative diet for Johnnie if I see a change in his well-being.

Atropos4 · 03-30-2007, 03:56 PM

One of my kitties, Raven has liver disease and almost died but I didn't want to give up. She spent many nights in intensive care getting iv's and whatnot. Luckily my vets at the time were in love with her and pushed very hard for her to get better. She had a very small chance of making it. Yet she did. She was put on Science Diet L/D and Denosyl for her medicine. She gets bloodwork ups done every 6 months and since we moved we have switched them to Sensitive Stomach for another cat with problems and she is doing fine on it. As long as Raven gets her daily pill of denosyl she does fine. She was told she had 3 years to live. It's been 4 now

We mostly just try to keep her stress levels down and it helps a great deal. We have spent thousands on her and it is well worth it for me. She's one of my kids.
The vet that helped us through all of this calls her their miracle kitty. ^_^

CountryFamily · 04-08-2007, 05:04 PM

When my last Sheltie had Kidney Failure I cooked her a homemade diet as I did not like the dog food choices for that but I had to learn the right ingredients, etc and what to give her that was safe. She loved that so much and got so much better for awhile she acted like a pup again! I never will forget the vet took her home on intensive care. Yes her home! How many vets will do that? But it was very stressful finding a vet that would work with us financially as all the other vets wanted to just let her die other than work with us except for this one vet. The expenses on treating Kidney Failure are very high..............The vet was great.

My first dog, a part collie when she was six months old the vet told me she would not live but two years because she was born with a heart defect. She lived to be almost 18 years old. I really miss all my pets that have passed on.

01-05-2007, 10:17 AM	#1 (permalink)
Average_Joe Psycho Location: Under the Radar	Bad News about one of my pups My 9 week old Sheltie-mix pup was acting very sick and disoriented earlier this week, so we took it to the vet for some help. It turns out that he may have a liver shunt, which is a serious condition that may be causing toxic buildup, that is normally taken care of in the liver, to bypass the liver altogether and reach the brain and other organs. I did some research online and it seems like there are 2 ways to deal with this: either through risky, expensive surgery or through diet and medicine. Right now we are debating what to do for the pup. We can either spend the money on the surgery, testing, and recovery costs that would run anywhere from $2000 to $5000, try a prescribed diet plan that would reduce the amount of toxic waste produced by the body, or put him down (the vet's advice). Right now, I'm leaning toward trying the diet approach, but it may not be successful and may cause further harm to the dog. This may not be a common problem to most of you fellow pet owners, but I would greatly appreciate some advice about how to handle this problem. Has anyone had a dog with a liver shunt? If so what did you do? Has anyone had a pet with a physical defect that required special attention, surgery, or euthanasia? I promise not to judge any decisions you made, only take them as advice. Last edited by Average_Joe; 01-05-2007 at 11:22 AM..

01-05-2007, 11:05 AM	#2 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	I dont have any advice for you, the only animals I ever had to put down were two cats within 6 months of each other (while pregnant) for feline luekemia, I just wanted to say I know this wont be an easy decision for you and my heart goes out to you in having to deal with this __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

01-05-2007, 02:46 PM	#5 (permalink)
Acetylene Addict Location: under a rock	My Sheltie had an autoimmune disorder that eventually killed her when she was 6. But before that happened, I kept her alive and happy for almost her entire life by making homemade food for her that would prevent symptoms. My father had a cat with liver failure that made it for 5 more happy years with homemade food, as well. Try the diet route. Animals do not suffer from disease as badly as we do, because they live in the "now". They don't wish they were better or worry about getting worse, they just live their lives. Don't give up on your puppy! If the time comes to put him down, HE will let you know. At the very least, the diet might buy you some time while you save up for the surgery (since it looks like shunts don't heal on their own). Oh, and you might want to ask around for a better vet. No vet should be suggesting you put a dog down when there are other options. In fact, a GOOD vet will have financial options available, even if they will just accept postdated checks, specifically to avoid having to give up early on a dog that has a chance. I always try to live my life with hindsight. Ten years from now, how will you feel about the decision you make now? Will you be proud of what you do? You might also ask yourself what lessons your kids will learn from this, which is likely to be an event they will remember for a long time. What is this diet you are talking about here? Where did you find it? __________________ There's no justice. There's just us. Last edited by Acetylene; 01-05-2007 at 02:50 PM..

01-08-2007, 06:39 AM	#7 (permalink)
Acetylene Addict Location: under a rock	Hey AJ, I'm glad you are giving it a shot. If he is in pain he will probably cry and lick or fuss with his paws over the area that hurts--for a sore head, he will rub it with his paws, for a sore belly he will lie curled up and lick himself or cry. To find out if your pup if suffering, find out how humans feel who have liver disease. Likely it is similar. But remember what I said about suffering--dog's don't "suffer" as much as we do because they have a sort of Buddhist-Zen attitude about the world and just accept everything that happens to them without getting all worked up about it. I feel strongly that they should be the ones to decide if their life is worth living--and I think they would almost always say "yes", as long as they are alive enough to feel the sun shine on their fur and know that you love them. Quick word about diet--if you plan to feed the low-toxicity diet for a long time (either because you are saving up for the surgery or because you are hoping surgery won't be needed) you should be very careful about your puppy's nutritive needs. Low-protein diets might be tough for the pup to grow to full size and health at such a young age. You might try replacing one meal a day with the homemade food, and either just barely cook the meat (make sure it's still VERY rare) or add a raw egg (you can get salmonella-free eggs from the Country Hen, they have a website so you can find a dealer). That would be easier than home-cooking ALL their meals, and also help make sure they can get all their vital amino acids, since raw or minimally-cooked proteins are more complete. I noticed that egg is the protein used by your science diet kibble so maybe that would be the best choice if you can manage it. I also noticed that they are adding extra antioxidants, so I would recommend giving the puppy the occasional cherry tomato or piece of bell pepper if he will eat them--this is because the antioxidants in kibble and canned food are often lost or reduced in processing. Tomatoes and bell peppers are better sources of antioxidants than oranges and most dogs (that I have met) don't like oranges anyway. You can cook the bell peppers if he likes them better that way but the tomatoes should be raw. I get my dog to eat them by putting a little bit of lowfat mayonnaise on them, or you could try fat-free cream cheese (I think fat intake is supposed to be regulated, that's why fat-free). Honestly I think kibble is just fine for dogs as long as it is supplemented effectively with fresh foods. For a normal dog you could just agg eggs and meat to the kibble without cooking anything special, but for your pup that would result in too much protein, so you would need to balance it with whatever starch your home recipe calls for, plus vitamins for nutritive balance. Ooops, that wasn't a "quick word". Well, hope it helps. __________________ There's no justice. There's just us.

01-15-2007, 02:36 PM	#8 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	You have to do what you feel is right. You will have support along the way and/or many sympathetic ears/shoulders should you need them. __________________ If only closed minds came with closed mouths. Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open. It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

01-05-2007, 01:40 PM	#3 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	Why was the vet's advice to put the dog down? Is it just because the vet feels it's not worth the money or the time to treat the dog, or is there another reason?

01-05-2007, 01:52 PM	#4 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Joe, I'm so sorry that you are facing this with one of your new pups. Hub and I have spent insane amounts on the medical care of our pets, but only once did we have to put down a relatively young dog due to a poor prognosis. It broke our hearts. You might consider the change of diet as an intermediate measure, and if that fails, follow your vet's advice. It's a tough decision and I feel for you. Pen

02-01-2007, 10:39 AM	#10 (permalink)
Average_Joe Psycho Location: Under the Radar	I just wanted to give an update in case anybody was wondering. My little Sheltie pup, "Johnnie" is doing quite well. We have been feeding him the special dog food from Hills Prescription diet (sorry, JT Kirk) and he has been showing no symptoms of toxicity. His puppy energy has been restored, and he seems to be growing well. At first, the dog food made his BM's a bit erratic and loose, but even that has been much improved. Right now, he's a happy dog, and he is being trained without much of a problem. Thanks for all your support and comments. I may continue to post an update from time to time.

02-01-2007, 10:51 AM	#11 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	I know I'd love any updates you can throw this way - I've been following. And it's when people like you are taking good care of those dependant on them that I hope the human race isn't doomed or some such. Good work, and good luck to Johnnie! __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

03-29-2007, 02:01 PM	#12 (permalink)
Kandie Upright	I found out when my Pug puppy was 2 months old that she had a liver Shunt..Ofcorse I couldnt risk the surgery..shes on medicine and special food and she is now 2 1/2 years old..She has her good days and her bad ones..she is VERY small(still looks like a pup) and VERY VERY thin..that is normal for dogs with this problem..I know she wont have a full healthy life but all I can do is love her for each and every day I have her..im just greatful Ive had her this long..the way the vet talked she was gonna die with in a few months. When I first found out she had a liver shunt i called Pug rescue to see if i could find out any more information on this..He told me that they just spent well over $3000.00 for the surgery for a pug and she passed 3 days later! That made up my mind right then and there not to get the surgery.This is a terrible disorder and heart breaking to make decisions on how to treat this. But I feel I did the right thing.

03-30-2007, 12:24 PM	#13 (permalink)
Average_Joe Psycho Location: Under the Radar	Thanks for sharing your story, Kandie. It gives me lots of hope that Johnnie will be around for a while longer. We are always looking for signs that he is sick or going downhill, but so far, he has thrived on the special diet. Johnnie is also quite small, but he was also the runt of the litter, so I'm not really sure how big he would be if he was healthy and eating normal food. Last month he weighed 9 lbs. at 20 weeks old, while his brother was 21 lbs. You mentioned that your Pug is on medicine and special food. Would you mind sharing this info with me? I may look for an alternative diet for Johnnie if I see a change in his well-being. __________________ I think I'll procrastinate......in a little while.

03-30-2007, 03:56 PM	#14 (permalink)
Atropos4 Think about it Location: North Carolina	One of my kitties, Raven has liver disease and almost died but I didn't want to give up. She spent many nights in intensive care getting iv's and whatnot. Luckily my vets at the time were in love with her and pushed very hard for her to get better. She had a very small chance of making it. Yet she did. She was put on Science Diet L/D and Denosyl for her medicine. She gets bloodwork ups done every 6 months and since we moved we have switched them to Sensitive Stomach for another cat with problems and she is doing fine on it. As long as Raven gets her daily pill of denosyl she does fine. She was told she had 3 years to live. It's been 4 now We mostly just try to keep her stress levels down and it helps a great deal. We have spent thousands on her and it is well worth it for me. She's one of my kids. The vet that helped us through all of this calls her their miracle kitty. ^_^ __________________ Minds are like parachutes. They work better open. "If I were Hermione, I would have licked his pantleg."

04-08-2007, 05:04 PM	#15 (permalink)
CountryFamily Upright	When my last Sheltie had Kidney Failure I cooked her a homemade diet as I did not like the dog food choices for that but I had to learn the right ingredients, etc and what to give her that was safe. She loved that so much and got so much better for awhile she acted like a pup again! I never will forget the vet took her home on intensive care. Yes her home! How many vets will do that? But it was very stressful finding a vet that would work with us financially as all the other vets wanted to just let her die other than work with us except for this one vet. The expenses on treating Kidney Failure are very high..............The vet was great. My first dog, a part collie when she was six months old the vet told me she would not live but two years because she was born with a heart defect. She lived to be almost 18 years old. I really miss all my pets that have passed on.