soma

Is getting married and having kids worth it? On one hand, it seems like the most fulfilling thing one can do with one's life. On the other hand, it seems like a huge amount of responsibility and trouble people jump into because it's just what people are supposed to do.

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Having Girl Problems?

Lizra

Is life worth living?

Depends on how selfish you are.....and also if you can cope with giving part of your heart to someone else to carry around, for the rest of your life. It has it's ups and downs.

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Happy atheist

Cynthetiq

I had to vote yes, because MARRIED is worth it. Kids, I cannot comment on because we decided that we don't want to have kids.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

The thing is, marriage and kids aren't for everyone. It's really a matter of what you want to do in your life and what you're willing to do. Speaking only for myself, I love being married and having a child. It brings a whole new and unique meaning to your life.

filtherton

Well, i can't speak for marriage, but having a kid can be pretty meaningful and fulfilling. It does completely depend on the people involved. The headlines of any newspaper are often filled with stories about people for whom marriage and parenthood have been anything but fulfilling.

noodle

I've chosen not to do either.
And I've got a pretty fulfilling life.
I'm very supportive of people who choose either or both options, but I've decided that neither is right for me in the grand scheme of things. And luckily, I've met someone with those same thoughts.

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Bacchanal

I can't in all honesty answer the poll question. I've got two kids, and they're absolutely the best thing to ever happen to me. Marriage on the other hand, I've decided, isn't for me. I've never given marriage a chance, and it may be wonderful, but I don't intend to try it.

I guess, like the answers are reflecting so far, it depends on the people involved as to whether or not it's worth it in their eyes.

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Universal Truth Is Not Measured In Mass Appeal

Sage

It's totally and completely worth every second of every day to get married... IF IT'S TO THE RIGHT PERSON. Get married to someone that you're not 100% committed to or who isn't 100% committed to you, and it sucks.

Kids I can't comment on. I get the impression one has to really seriously be ready to have kids in order to enjoy them to their fullest.

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analog

This really needs to be two different options... I can't select one because I believe marriage is worth it, whereas kids are not.

fresnelly

For me, absolutely. But if your lifestyle priorities are strictly related to the individual pursuit of career, travel, adventure, hobby, sexual conquest and so on, it ain't for you.

I'm not saying you can't have some of that within a marriage with children, but you should be honest with yourself ahead of time. There's nothing to ruin a marriage and the lives of your children like resentment.

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Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

little_tippler

Wow that's quite a big contradiction there!

First it's "the most fulfilling thing one can do with one's life". Then it's also "just what people are supposed to do". So which is it? Can it really be both? Or is one idea a consequence of the other?

I disagree with the first affirmation. To me it doesn't seem like the most fulfilling thing I can do with my life. It seems like a worthwhile thing to do, because it's pretty nice to be with someone who you love and loves you back and to have a child with them; and to help "shape" this new person into a decent human being is fascinating. It's also a kind of legacy for many.

But the fact is it's hard to stay together that long, and would you really want to if it's turned into a private hell? It's all relative. I can think of plenty of other worthwhile things to do with my time. I'd be sad to never have kids but I'd still try and find a man I like to be with; I'd also continue to make friends and learn more about relating to others and about the amazing world we live in; I'd continue to try and pursue the things I love to do most, be it art or music or any other activity. I don't think there is much point to my life but since I'm here I might as well live and try to do what makes me happy, while it's possible.

I voted I'm not sure, because I don't care about being married or not, but I thought of voting yes overall. Because why not? Who cares if over 50% of marriages end in divorce? Let's throw caution to the wind and believe in fairy-tales

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Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

Average_Joe

In my opinion, getting married and having kids is a great way of life. For me, I have always wanted a reason to settle down and have this kind of responsibility. I have always hated the dating scene, and I was never much into going to bars, loud parties, etc.

One thing I found out is that no matter how prepared you think you are to have a family, it's still a huge adjustment from being single. And it's definately not easy. It takes work.

A friend of mine summed it up perfectly: "It's the biggest pain in the ass you will ever enjoy".

Gilda

The getting married thing is a definite yes for me, but I can see why it wouldn't be for everyone. I don't know about kids yet, but we have decided that they're the right thing for us. I was the guardian for a teenager for several years, and I can't say how fulfilling it is to see what a fine young woman she's becoming. Having the opportunity to do this from the very beginning will, I hope, be the same experience, but turned up several notches.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

analog

None of this is aimed at soma or anyone else in particular.

That is a seriously bad ideal to have. THE most fulfilling thing someone can do with their life? No way, not even close. Anyone can bump uglies and grow a fetus- how about making positive change for people? Helping others? Teaching? Healing? Counseling? I could go on.

I think it's a hilarious tragedy that people think making a child (something any male and female with working genitals have been able to do for the entirety of our existence) is the most fulfilling thing they can do, when there are people out there living- and dying- homeless and starving, many of them children. There are tons of children up for adoption, who deserve a fair chance at a good life- and that's not just raising a child like you would your own... that's making a difference.

[breeder mocking] "Oh look at me, I can make a baby, that makes me like God or something, this is the best thing a person can do!" [/breeder mocking]

Pfft.

Charlatan

To continue the spread of your genetic material is one of the key drives to all life.

Personally, I have found that having kids has been quite rewarding. It's true anyone can do it. But only some can do it right.

As for the overpopulation argument... hogwash.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

highthief

Your opinion of course, even though it is laced with vitriol and sarcasm, I still respect it, even if you don't respect the opinions of others who choose to have a family and believe it to be immensely rewarding.

However, let's rephrase the original OP slightly and ask whether raising a child is the most rewarding thing as opposed to the way you read it as simply procreating.

Raising a child can be the most rewarding thing in the world, as many parents will tell you. At 38, I've achieved many goals in life and am still aiming for several others, but nothing brings me more fulfillment and pride than teaching my daughter - providing moral, intellectual and emotional guidance, helping her to become a good person, and enabling her to achieve her own goals and add, in a positive way, to the world.

Having her and raising her is the best thing I've done with my life.

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

Daniel_

I love my wife, and I love my daughter.

I'm not nearly a good enough husband or father to euther of them, but having them in my life makes me try all the harder to be the person I have the potential to be.

It's not just abut how we influence our children, it's about how our children influence us.

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╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

CSflim

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filtherton

I don't think you understand what you're talking about on this particular issue. You think that helping, teaching, counseling are all things more meaningful and worthwhile than having kids, which is funny, because if you had kids, or were even remotely able to understand what having kids is about, you would see that having kids can be all about helping, teaching, counseling and more.

Your post amounts to you lamenting the fact that people are so naive in believing a particular thing to be meaningful while suggesting multiple other things that you naively think are meaningful.

The fact of the matter is that different people find meaning in different things, and until you've put in your time doing something you just don't know whether it will be good for you. In this respect i understand where you're coming from. Unfortunately you're not consistent. In your book it's bad to idealize childrearing but not teaching. That doesn't make sense. Why should one expect teaching to be more fulfilling that raising a kid? Why should one expect teaching to be more fulfilling than taking a crap? Why shouldn't one expect teaching to be a dreary exercise in facilitating rote memorization?

analog

It's amazing how, no matter how often this subject comes up, someone comes along and personifies the "all-encompassing cosmic knowledge" that parents seem to think making a baby bestows upon them. Because somehow I, being the retard that I am as a childless individual, cannot possibly grasp what having a kid is about. Yeah. Ok. Once again, it's "I have a kid, therefore I know everything and you don't know shit- you don't even have the ability to understand".

You seem to be implying that I'm unaware that parents are helping, teaching, and counseling their own children, which is asinine. Everyone knows that. Once again, it's "I have a kid, so I know everything and everyone else must be clueless." Excuse me all to hell for not engaging in the very pedestrian act of pumping my sperm into a fertile woman's vagina.

Maybe I should give it a shot some time, though, because apparently making your sperm fertilize an egg makes you a goddamn genius. Parents teach and help and counsel? Thanks for the tip, Einstein.

Perhaps you will understand my tone if you ever realize (though I have no hope for it for most people) how much you condescend to people who aren't parents.

I don't think I ever mentioned anything about being naive, nor did I imply it in any way. What I said was that many parents subscribe to the belief that making a child is somehow the most meaningful thing a person can do.

As to the second part... you think teaching, as a profession, isn't a meaningful endeavor? You're teaching many, many times more than one child. You're actively contributing to the educational rearing of tons of children, not just the one you have at home. You think helping people- the homeless, the sick, the elderly- isn't meaningful, isn't important? How selfish does a person have to be to truly believe that raising a child- one single person- is more meaningful than helping many, many people? Raising your child is your responsibility- helping others takes more than implied responsibility... you have to actually give a shit about other people, and care enough to do something.

I never said it was good to idealize anything, let alone teaching. You also aren't reading me accurately- my comparison to other endeavors was not that it is a universal truth that x or y profession/endeavor are always better than having a child for each individual person. What I said was that having a child isn't the most fulfilling thing a person can do- meaning, obviously, that we as people are capable, in general, of much more meaningful things.

Fulfillment is a personal feeling- not everyone would enjoy teaching, for example. This is not to say that because you don't like to teach, having a kid is more altruistic or more meaningful. Everyone finds different things fulfilling- my point, however, is that if you find raising a child to be "the most fulfilling thing a person (obviously meaning 'anyone') can do", you are sadly mistaken and deluded.

There are many things that are just as meaningful and fulfilling for different people. Teaching, helping, counseling are examples of these different things in which different people may find varying levels of personal fulfillment- but many, many people will find these things more fulfilling than some people find having a child... which makes the assertion that childrearing is the most fulfilling thing in the world, to be patently false.

I'm also disappointed that you closed out your sermon with an absurdly crude hyperbole like "Why should one expect teaching to be more fulfilling than taking a crap?" Must be a breeder thing.

Gilda

I read the OP as meaning "rearing children" where it said "having children"; ie, the entire process that occurs from birth rather than the simple biological aspects of it. For many women, being pregnant and giving birth is itself a very powerful and fulfilling experience, but I don't think the OP was describing that so much as what happens afterwards. That it's common doesn't mean that it isn't important, sometimes profoundly so.

It's both powerfully attractive and faulty reasoning to generalize from one's personal experience to everyone (a special case of the "if one, then all" fallacy). Having and rearing a child can be the most fulfilling thing a person can do. So can teaching, writing, sports, exploring other cultures, any of a dozen other things.

A person who has children or has experince with rearing children is going to have first hand knowledge regarding that experience that others are not, this is true, but it does not invalidate the experience of others. Some people may have a good enough knowledge of themselves that they know they would make poor parents--their knowledge of a life without children is a valid one to bring to such a discussion.

One last thing. Passing on genes need not be a goal of having children. I'm sterile, and it doesn't bother me in the least that my genetic line stops with me (though it is truly a shame that my sister can't pass on hers), but I still want to have children, to be a part of a child's life in a way that only a parent (genetic or adoptive) can be. This is not meant to be dismissive of those who choose not to have or rear children, but it is a unique experience that I don't think anything else can really duplicate.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

analog

Right, by this you mean an individual person- it may be the most fulfilling thing Jane Doe can do, not "anyone at all", because there are many other very fulfilling things. My issue is with the oft-made assertion that it is "the" most fulfilling thing anyone can do (as in, it trumps all others).

filtherton

It's amazing how, no matter how tangential to any sort of child specific topic, you bring up the fact that you don't think having children is meaningful in any sort of way and find a way to criticize everyone who has ever had children for no apparent reason whatsoever. Seriously, i can see that chip on your shoulder through the internet, and that's not even possible.

I wasn't claiming that making a baby bestows upon me some cosmic knowledge. I was claiming that your claim that there is a difference between the meaning provided by child rearing and the meaningfulness provided by teaching and counseling seems to imply that you aren't aware that raising a child involves teaching and counseling and helping. I concede that you do know shit, just that your description of what it means to be a parent is completely different from my experience of what it means to be a parent. The only things you could have possibly derived about what it means to be a parent could have only come from thought experiments. Apparently you aren't very good at thought experiments when it comes to the subject of parenting.

I never said you didn't know shit, but feel free to tell yourself that it it helps you to justify to yourself your ridiculously self righteous tone.

Well, i apologize for taking what you said at face value.

I only assume people who don't have kids are clueless about kids when they say shit that implies that they are clueless about kids, which you did. By the way, does bill hicks know that you stole his routine? He had a pretty good one about advertisers, too.

Maybe you should try taking a step back, taking a deep breath, and realizing that you're not thinking rationally about the implications of what i said. How exactly do you keep your mod status anyways? I would like to talk to you how you're talking to me, but i'd probably get my post edited.

It's not condescension to correct someone who spouts off about something when they clearly know little about it. Though i could see how it would make you feel better about being wrong.

Yeah, see, not having a child, you can't really talk about how meaningful it is to have a child. Sorry, you just can't. That doesn't make you stupid, it doesn't make me better than you, it just means that you can't claim to know how some things feel having never experienced them for yourself. For example: I can't claim to know what it's like being a black man in mississippi in the 40's because i've never been a black man in mississippi in the 40's. For me to claim to understand what that's like is absurd. It is even more absurd to get all self righteous when someone calls me out for pretending to understand what it's like being a black man in mississippi in the 40's.

Well, first you have to get beyond your irrational expectations about what all parents think about child rearing and actually read what i said. I said that no one thing is meaningful to everybody. Having a kid, teaching, helping homeless people, all these things are meaningful to some people, but not to others. How many horrible teachers have you had? I've had several, and they all tend to discourage learning. They all apparently derive little meaning from the profession.

You apparently find meaning in clinging tightly to mental caricatures of breeders. I might find meaning in teaching, maybe not. I can tell you that being a parent, to me, is pretty fucking meaningful, and i can't imagine much of anything being as meaningful.

Depends on the person and depends on how you derive meaning. I am confused as to how you define it.

So you think that meaning is defined externally? That i can't both define what is meaningful for myself and have that definition be valid? And you're implying that i'm arrogant?

It seems like in the first part you're saying essentially that each person finds fulfillment in their own way and then you go on to say that anyone who finds child rearing to be the most fulfilling thing for them is deluded. I think that perhaps it is you who is a bit deluded. You're taking something that you yourself seemingly admit is completely subjective and claiming that people who don't happen to come to the same conclusion as you are somehow wrong. Do you see how that doesn't make any sense?

It would be patently false to say that everybody will find child rearing to be the most meaningful thing they've ever done. I don't think anyone has made that claim in this thread, though, which makes your statements in here seem rather odd.

Yeah, you're right. It must be a breeder thing. You can only understand if you've fertilized an egg. If we have mods to look to as role models on the tfp, well then, i must say that analog, you are a beacon of calm, respectable open mindedness for all of us.

oberon

I just have to say: pwned.

Seriously, analog, I don't think anyone would say raising children is the best thing they could do with their lives, nor that any given other profession is less important. The fact is, in most professions, you rely on many others to succeed, and so not that many people are successful in their careers, regardless of their own personal effort. In raising children, you have nearly total control over your child's life, for about 20 years. Forget having sex and popping out a baby nine months later, the ~20 years after that is a totally different matter. And even though children are almost entirely the parents' responsibility & domain, it's still a tough job. So in many cases the best thing they did do was raise their child(ren), or it may be one among many great things they did. They deserve respect for that if they did a good job. There are many, many parents that can't even do that. Your position on having kids in the first place is irrelevant.

And you know what? In 500 years everyone and their children (if any) and their grandchildren (if any) will be dead.. and in a few billion years the universe will start over, so nothing you do in life will have any permanent effect. But we give it our best shot anyway, because what else is there? And why not? Shit, now I'm wondering what the hell I did before I was born.

__________________
"There are finer fish in the sea than have ever been caught." -- Irish proverb

highthief

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

arctic cat

getting married and having kids is something i've always wanted to do, but i'm a long way from getting there and it saddens me when i think that it may never happen

analog

First of all, the only reason I brought this up in THIS thread is because this thread is about having children, and whether or not it's a worthwhile thing to do... so yeah, i'm not just going off on a tangent. Everyone had already been talking about how fulfilling having a child is, OR how worthwhile it is- there was nothing tangential about anything I posted, it was based completely on the commentary of pretty much everyone who'd posted before me. Feel free to take a look... I believe you were actually the first to use the word "meaningful" and second only to the thread starter in "fulfilling". So yeah, I'm not pulling wars out of my ass- this was the topic at hand.

Yes. Each person finds fulfillment for themselves in different ways- you again have misunderstood, however, what I spelled out quite clearly several times over:

I'm not sure how else to say the same thing so you can stop misunderstanding me and making the same wrong point over and over.

Once again: I am saying that it is not "the" most fulfilling thing that any person, every person, all people, everywhere, universally, can do. If you say it's the most fulfilling thing YOU, PERSONALLY, can do, I already said that we all define fulfillment differently, and that's perfectly fine. Therefore, it makes perfect sense that (because all people define fulfillment differently) I take issue when someone asserts that it is a universal truth that there is nothing more fulfilling for any person, every person, all people, everywhere, universally, to do.

I can't figure out why you're still not reading it correctly. Hopefully that helped.

Also, it's so cute when people feel the need to respond by going at a person line for line... it takes out all that pesky "context" and makes things seem easier, doesn't it?

I'm gonna go ahead and ignore the rest of your response because you basically tell me how wrong I am... because you stand by your original opinion... which is not really a response at all, while still insisting I'm childless and clueless. It seems like you think that if you repeat what you've already said, including repeating how wrong you think I am, that it will actually become true. So, I'm sorry to say this conversation has reached a point where forward progress seems impossible and I excuse myself, with a thank you, for the conversation we did have.

Aw, thanks I'm glad you recognize the calm in my tone and the respect I maintained despite being essentially told I was an idiot because I'm childless. So, compliment appreciated!

*Nikki*

There are seriously some people who should NOT reproduce, you being one of them with the feelings you have on this matter.
Maybe someday, if you do decide to have a child, then you can relate to the people who have stated how fulfilling the experience is to them. Until then trying to understand the feelings associated with bringing a life into this world would be totally unattainable for you.

tecoyah

And....there it is.

Analog commenting on this subject is akin to me telling him how pointless being a paramedic is. I am not one, and have no understanding of what this occupation entails...Just as Analog is inexperienced where the subject of parenting, and child rearing are concerned. Added to this is what seems to be a subconcious (or conscious) dislike of the thought of having Kids which is prevelant in his many posts on the subject.
Just dont have Kids Analog...seems the logical course. My personal experience in the marriage and Kids realm has been predominantly positive, and extremely fulfilling. In fact , I would definately say it is the best part of my existance right now. Family to me....makes the rest worthwhile.

But....this is just my opinion....for what its worth.

cj2112

Though my marriage was a shit hole for the last few years (seems she forgot that she was married), I would do it again. I would just choose more carefully..

As far as being a parent, there are people who should not have children and those that don't want children should seriously take precautions to make sure that they don't become parents. Just as some people find great happiness and fulfillment dedicating their lives to being dancers, musicians, artists, volunteer work etc. some find it in parenthood. I am one of those people that has found it in parenthood.
I posted the following about being a parent in Tilted Parenthood in March of this year:

josie

I've found out that marriage and especially parenthood are not necessarily either/or propositions.
There are times marriage is very comforting and wonderful, and other times it's not. I seriously could have gone either way on the marriage thing - although I'm not the kind of person who would have spent my life alone so even if I hadn't gotten married, I would have wanted some kind of partner in my life.
Motherhood was never in question for me though - I wanted that with all my heart for as long as I can remember. And it is fulfilling, but it's also incredibly difficult. When all is going well, I've found the mother/child relationship to be the most wonderful, fulfilling relationship in the world- but when there is worry or sadness or uncertainty involved and it's concerning one of your children (with whom you have a connection that is physical, emotional, mental, etc.) it's very, very difficult and can be all-consuming- because you've centered your life around this person.
I never realized how vulnerable being a mother and loving another person beyond all reason and unconditionally would make me.
If you're not willing to relinquish control of your heart and emotions and take great risks- you shouldn't have kids.

filtherton

Nothing tangential? You basically came into a discussion where everybody was amicably talking about their opinions on the pros and cons of marriage and child rearing and said something to the effect of, "Anyone who thinks like this is an delusional." The thread is about whether having kids and getting married are worth it, not whether having kids is the most meaningful thing that could ever be done by anyone anywhere. Still, you come in here, guns blazing, calling people delusional and mocking "breeders" as if all breeders can be lumped together into one cohesive group. I'm just saying, it's kind of a douchebag move.

Well, i could see you objecting if someone had made that claim, but nobody did. Soma said it seemed like it was, which is another way of saying that s/he thinks that it might be. This is an opinion, and much like yours it is based on someone's perspective. Soma is entitled to his/her opinion, just as you are entitled to yours. It's not like you've offered up any sort of objective evidence to support your opinion. Calling someone delusional because you disagree with them about something that is completely subjective is pointless. You're the comic book guy when it comes to breeding.

What's cute is how you mistake being passionate about a topic with having anything remotely relevant to say about it. That's cute. It reminds me of myself in high school. It's also cute how you co-opt the words of bill hicks without actually co-opting any of the funny. It's also very clever. It's cute how you can take a perfectly acceptable and understandable position about the role of child rearing in the context of the greater good and turn it into some sort of overly self important diatribe about how breeders are assholes.

Well, that sucks. I was interested in hearing how you could possibly understand, on any kind of deep level, what it's like having a child. Unfortunately, i guess, your going to opt out of any sort of explanation, which i guess makes sense, since you don't actually have one beyond "Anyone who questions my ability to talk about things with which i have no experience is really just calling me an idiot."

I never said you were clueless. What i said was that you lack the credentials to claim the level of familiarity with the role of a parent that you're attempting to claim.

I just don't see how you can claim a certain type of knowledge, but can't elaborate on that knowledge or how you gained that knowledge. I also can't see why when someone questions you on that knowledge you immediately start pewling with victimhood. No one said you weren't intelligent, analog. I'm just curious as to how you can claim to understand what being a parent feels like on a fundamental level without actually being a parent. Apparently, even asking that question to you is so offensive that you can't even begin to acknowledge the subject of it's validity.

It would be like if i told everyone that i understood what it's like being a woman in saudi arabia, and proceeded to make implications about what it means to be a woman in saudi arabia. Keep in mind that i've never been a woman in saudi arabia, nor taken a middle eastern woman's studies class, but maybe you don't think that that's important. If i were you in this hypothetical situation, when somebody, say a saudi arabian woman, called me out on my seeming lack of credentials concerning my professed expertise on the qualia of saudi arabian womanhood i would immediately claim that they were calling me an idiot, that all saudi arabian women are condescening assholes, and then i would refuse to elaborate on how i arrived at my supposed expertise. That's essentially a good approximation of your behavior: play the victim and stonewall. Pardon me if you seem a tad bit intellectually dishonest.

Feel free to ignore this last point, though, and continue to pretend to be the victim of some vast breeder conspiracy.


I guess where i come from it seems a little childish to congratulate one's self on only moderately acting like an ass.

JumpinJesus

So, if I have a teenage kid and share the opinions of analog, does that make my opinion valid or does it make me a pariah for saying that raising a child is not the most fulfilling thing I can do with my life?

Are we still allowed to disagree in here, or are we now required to give vague approval with the standard disclaimer that everyone is different?

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

spectre

Wow. I'm beginning to wonder if we should tag threads with "please don't respond if you're not going to agree." This is getting silly. The point of everyone being 18 or older here is to over the "fuck off n00b" attitude." We seem to be moving away from that with threads like this where if a person disagrees with you, we get a large group doing nothing but attacking anyone that disagrees with them. I keep hearing how people are saying, "I'm offended by that post," only to turn around and attack that person much worse than they ever did in the first place. Grow up.

On to the question, I feel that it's completely dependent on the person. For me, I know that it would be fulfilling to me. I'm also willing to admit that it's a possibility that it would be horribly unfulfilling for someone else.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

filtherton

It probably depends on whether you try to claim that everyone who disagrees with you is delusional.

shesus

This post is about whether marriage and children are fulfilling and worth it. I'm not sure why children is such a touchy subject, but it drives me crazy. If people were coming in talking about not getting married it wouldn't cause such an uproar. But you talk about not having children and you might as well be a criminal.

I used to not want to have children. I thought that it would not be fulfilling. I have since changed my mind, but others can have their opinions. Since this post is asking for both sides then the people who don't have kids will obviously post because heaven forbid a person who has kids says that it's not fulfilling. That would be even worse now wouldn't it?

For some people having a 'normal' life with marriage and kids is great. Being a vegetarian can be great too. However, everyone is different and life is not one size fits all. Can't we all be adults and see from other view points or do we have to be the same?

__________________
Whatever did happen to your soul?
I heard you sold it

Choose Heaven for the weather and Hell for the company

analog

I think you'll be beaten for not agreeing with the breeding masses- in fact, you'll be branded a traitor. I think they hang folk like you.

What I called delusional was the insistence that it is a universal truth that all human beings are incapable of any fulfillment greater than that of having a child. JumpinJesus is just one example (beyond myself and many other child-free people) that you are, in fact, wrong-

-and so I will say plainly, yes, you are delusiona if you try and force, by uncompromising assertion, your opinion which asserts a universal, unbendable "truth" on all other people against their will or personal feelings.

There are clearly people for whom it is not the case- even those who have had children and are still not "on your side". Saying it's true for every person is just stupid, as would be any blanket statement made about any other subject.

That'd be like me saying "Catholicism is the best religion for every person in the entire world, because I say it is, and you're not Catholic so you don't know- so therefore anything you say is wrong."

Mmhmm.

Uh... yeah. I thought that part of my opinion was very clear.

Woah, woah, hold the fuck on.

It doesn't matter that I don't want kids- asserting I should not have children is just as offensive to me as anyone else. If I told you that there are some people who should not reproduce, and listed any kind of reason whatsoever, you would flip out- and rightfully so.

How is it possibly acceptable for you to tell me that I shouldn't be a parent, when if I said the same thing, it would be a terrible offense? Acceptable levels of respect in discourse run as a two-way street... you don't get to say something because you think you're right, when the same comment turned to you would be a great insult.

You've mentioned Bill Hicks twice now, and if I take nothing else away from this thread, it will be this: I've barely heard any Bill Hicks, and I never found him to be funny... so, I have no idea what you're referencing when you say I sound like him. To be honest, I'm a little (jokingly) insulted that it's being said I seem to be trying to use his "comedy". lol

josie

Originally Posted by Analog:
Sorry to jump in here, but I think it's important to remember that there are other means of having children in your life than becoming one of the senseless breeding masses and reproducing.
And I have to agree what Nikki said, and don't find it offensive at all-it's common sense. If a person doesn't like children-they should definitely bypass parenthood. You might want to donate your sperm or eggs (I don't know it you're a man or a woman) if you are concerned about your "right" to have your genetics reproduced, but you should go with your gut and not have your genetic progeny living in the house with you - because believe me- if you're starting out not liking kids from the get-go, he or she will definitely get on your nerves and quick...and honestly, reproducing a child for your own pleasure and enjoyment is basically a selfish act anyway. Especially if we're not doing anything to make the world a better place for that child to live in.

I don't think there's anything wrong with saying you don't like kids or you don't want kids in your life. Children and all their attendent needs are an acquired taste. And a lot of people who have kids because they've always "loved" them, find out later they really had no idea how much was involved, and don't really "love" or "enjoy" the actual experience at all. And I think sadly, this is a much more commonly occuring scenario than the one where someone has enough self-awareness to say from the beginning - "I don't think I'd be a good parent - I'm not having kids"- and avoid what often turns out to be harmful fiasco, especially for the child involved.

But I'm interested to know that if anyone else who has had kids in the past would bypass that option now because of these particular times. I find myself thinking all the time now that if I were just starting out, I might think twice about having kids. My children are teen-agers (I biologically produced on and adopted one). I look around now, and think, I would not want to be just starting out with a baby in these times - which seem so much more difficult in terms of appropriate environments and activities, etc for children than even fifteen years ago. So many things have changed- and I think in ways that make parenting harder for people. So although fifteen years ago, I was eager to get on the parenting band wagon, I don't think I'd be so eager today. Does anyone else factor that into their decision?
*also, can someone tell me how to get the "originally posted by" tag on their quotes? Or is that not available in the quick reply - which is what I used? Thanks.

filtherton

I think that maybe a sticky singing the praises of tact would probably suffice.


To all the non-child wanting folks who feel oppressed, get over it. Nobody in here has made any sort of claim that it is wrong to not idealize parenthood. Feel free to express your disinclination towards being a parent. However, if you feel like making statements about the qualia of being a parent and you have never actually been a parent you should recognize that it is highly likely that you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to that particular topic.

analog

Absolutely, I almost always mention (and did mention, earlier on) adoption, you're totally correct.

There's a huge difference between saying, "if you don't like kids, then it makes sense that you shouldn't have children" and this case. I, myself, have said to someone "well if you don't like kids, that's a pretty good reason not to have any"- which is not telling someone they should not reproduce.

Telling a person they should not have children because you find their opinion on another matter to be in error, and therefore should not have children because of that opinion, is telling them they are unfit to be a parent in their opinion, which is an insult. Also, in this case, I was being told I should not reproduce because I don't feel that having a child is the most rewarding thing that every human being can do- having nothing to do with liking or not liking children, as in your example.

So yes, it's offensive and an insult.

You have no idea how many parents won't admit that. There are a lot of selfish people out there, but we're to believe that all parents are exempt from selfish behavior- not so. This is not at all to say that all reasons for having children are selfish, or that all parents are selfish, or even a majority- the point I'm making is that most parents won't admit that it exists, that there are people who have children for selfish reasons, because they believe there's no such thing as a "selfish reason" for having a kid. Well said.

You'd think there's nothing wrong with it, and I don't believe there is, but the attitude I get from parents (and have gotten all my life) shows me otherwise.

I have seen this many times... people who always loved kids, then had one, and realized it was way more than they bargained for when it's your own- or find that, now that it's their own, they don't really enjoy it because it's a 24/7 thing now, where before it was play time and such, then hand them back to their mom and dad. A friend of mine from a former job (he's about 36) has two kids, and he hates being a father. He's a good father, but he loathes the entire experience. He always told his girlfriend he didn't want kids, she agreed- they got married, she suddenly demanded children. He loved her too much to say no. He's a good father, and he doesn't resent his children at all, but he hates being a dad- he never wanted to be a dad to begin with, and now he has to be. He always made sure they had everything they needed, and his kids love him- but he'll tell you he'd take it back if he had it to do over.

When you quote someone, and you use the [-quote] tag (without the - in it), use the person's name in this way: [-quote=thename] and then [/quote-] at the end like normal. Ignore the dashes, they keep the thing from making the examples into actual quoted area. lol

So, [-quote=analog]Hello.[/quote-] without the example dashes, gives you:

See, the issue that I have with this sort of logic, and why it's patently faulty, is because if I went and ejaculated into a female right now, impregnated her, and she bore a child- suddenly my opinion is valid in your eyes because I'm now a "parent".

You insist the status of "parent" makes a person valid to argue parenting with you- when all it takes to be a parent is a sperm and an egg, not skills, a brain, common sense, or anything else. Maybe I should go knock up a girl just so you'll respect or accept my opinions- because then, you'd have to, by your own definition of what allows a person to talk about these things.

Which is asinine.

I also was not arguing anything about the qualifications for being a parent, so I have no idea what you're talking about in that respect. Clearly, since at least one person (JumpinJesus) says it is not the most fulfilling/meaningful thing that every person can do, and he does bear the all-important status of "parent" (and has for many years) which renders him able to converse on such topics, I am not incorrect in saying that being a parent is not, the most fulfilling/meaningful thing that every person can do. He is a parent, and he feels there are other things more fulfilling/meaningful. So, I'm not sure what we're arguing, since you are arguing for a universal application of opinion onto all persons, and I'm saying that it is incorrect to say anything of the sort is universally true- and here is an example in this very thread.