Acetylene

They get a lot of chlorophyll from stomach contents and "green tripe" too, I think probably more than from grass since they can't really digest the roughage from raw grass. I've seen grass just come out the other end. I heard from people give cats wheatgrass juice occasionally. I might try it for my dog, too, who knows! I don't have a cat right now, though.

About veggies...keep in mind, green and yellow beans are almost totally devoid of nutritive value. They would get a denser, more nutritios diet with better veggies since they can't eat too many of them. I like peppers for their b vitamins, myself, and tomatoes for vitamin C.

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rockzilla

I've been giving my kittens mostly dry food, knowing that I could do better for them. I've recently taken to the habit of sauteing the livers of all of the turkeys I've been cooking at work (they'd go into the trash otherwise), chopping them up, and cooking them with a little thin gravy. The first time I gave it to them, they spent a good 20 minutes trying to lick the bowl clean. Since then I've been trying to improve the food I give to them. I simmered some kale, cut it up really small and mixed it with the liver (since they don't care for vegetables) and used the cooking water to make the gravy... I don't know if that did anything... a raw foodie would say that I killed all of the nutrients by heating it up.
They've also developed the same expensive tastes that I have, seeing as I can't help but give them a taste of shrimp, duck, chicken, fresh fish or whatever I happen to be eating.
Out of curiosity James, what exactly do you feed your cats? Do you just cook human-style food, or do you know of a website that has some cat-specific recipes?
BTW.. after reading this thread, I think the Bubbles avatar really suits you, he's the smartest guy in the park.

thingstodo

My dogs eat organic dry food with a lot of veggies in it. We also mix up other things every day like wheat grass, a little goat's milk yogurt, oatmeal, banana, brown rice, canned organic dog food... they also get cherry tomatoes for snacks along with carrots and other veggies they'll eat.

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cyrnel

Bagged Costco lamb & rice for now, while I get back in the hang of doggie-dom.

I've also neard from breeders who are natural diet proponents that the bagged food is largely garbage of convenience with pretty labels. I will be adapting my grocery shopping to include more vegetable and meat variety for the pooch. At <2yrs old any diet-related problems he picks up will be my own fault. Don't get me started on the bagged-food UTIs our golden always fought through. Golden are sensitive, but she showed how important diet could be.

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thingstodo

Thanks for the iml link. Wow! I went there and got the list of "good" food producers. I them cross-refrenced the list to the local stores in my area. I was amazed to find two stores that carry nearly every one of the good brands. It is interesting to note that if a store does one thing right they can do many things right! I'm headed off today to see if their store clerks know what they're talking about and can teach me which products are best for my dogs and, more importanly,why.

Also, thank you for your passion. I'm sure you've been through a lot get where yo are with your current thinking. And you obviously care about yor pets. Other people on this thread may be defensive and it's probably because they care about their pets as much as you do yours.

We pretty much all care, which is the reason we have pets in the first place, and everyone is trying to do the right thing. It's also hard to imagine that the pet food industry - and especially our vets, the people we intimately trust to help us with our furry loved one - don't care the same way we do. I can tell you that I plan on having a long chat with my vet the next time I'm in, and I'll do it in front of the IAMs display!

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james t kirk

Cat food Recipe

Consists of 2 parts.

Part No. 1 – Meat.

Chicken legs

Or Turkey legs and breasts

I roast the chicken till done, the clean them off the bones and store in tuperware containers enough for about 4 days at two servings per day. Freeze the lot and then take out as required.


Part No. 2 – Vegetables.

Peas – 1 can
Yellow and or green beans – bag full
Cauliflower
Broccoli
Carrots
1 apple
Parsley (for chlorophyll, cats need chlorophyll. You can also use wheat grass, or brewers yeast or mescalin salad mix even.)
Potassium supplement (got this from the vet in Hamilton – “the cat clinic” www.thecatclinic.ca )

You can also add some melon and or pineapple as well.

I then boil all the veggies together briefly, except the chlorophyll source. Take all veggies and puree in a food processor into a pulp and add the chlorophyll source as you puree. Add some potassium supplement to the mix by crushing potassium tablets using spoons then add into the mix and puree. Also, add some calcium citrate to the veggie pulp for a good calcium source.

Spoon “veggie pulp” into zip log bags about a cup’s worth, or even slightly less. Freeze the bags separately.

I then feed the cat twice a day by chopping up the chicken into bits and adding a spoon full of the veggies. Mix it up.

Vet recommended the ratio of about 60 percent meat and 40 percent veggies for a cat with kidney disease and about 80 / 20 for a healthy cat. However, too much veggie and the cat walks away. You have to fool the cat into thinking its all meat. I probably go about 70 / 30. Part of the thing with KD is that you want to lower protein, but you want good protein.


For kidney disease, add cranberry powder to food on a daily basis and mix in. Essentially, you salt the food with the cranberry powder, then mix it in.

To vary the meat, you can use liver (Vitamin A), or oily fish. Sardines and tuna are good.

For a cat with Kidney disease give it 2 pellets of Dalisas Reninen D-30 in its daily drinking water. (Recommended by natural path vet.) However, I give the cat these maybe twice a week in her water.

It takes about 1 evening after work every 5 or 6 weeks to make a batch of food up. It’s actually pretty simple and logical.

Natural path vet was adamant that ALL pet food is garbage, no matter what any vet tells you. (Bear in mind this woman is a certified vet.)

Her name is Sharon Kopinak
Rockwood Ontario N0B 2K0
(519) 853-5142

rockzilla

Thanks for the info James, what you posted is actually pretty close to what I've been doing, minus the supplements, and I just finely dice the veggies + greens right into the meat, my cats don't seem to mind, but they would eat the vegetables that I feed myself before I started making their food. Do you think that throwing a little mashed banana into the mix would be a good enough source of potassium, or is a supplement really necessary?
The hardest thing about making my own pet food is aiming to cook for nutrition and not taste. I have a habit of tasting everything I cook, and let's just say that homemade cat food doesn't taste much better than the stuff you buy.

Acetylene

You can get a log ot natural potassium into a pet's diet if they will eat cantaloupe. That is a really rich source and my cats always loved it, especially the rind.

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james t kirk

I think that the potasium supplement was more for the fact that my one cat is suffering from Kidney disease.

The big thing in feeding your pet properly is to bear in mind that dogs and cats especially should not be eating grains - carbs and rice under any circumstances.

Processed pet foods are loaded with all things bad for your pet, including carbs and assorted other garbage.

Acetylene

Why are there no bones or organ meats in the recipe? Is there a reason for that?

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thingstodo

Why shouldn't dogs eat any grains? I mix a little brown rice or oatmeal in with our prepared foods. I don't disagree with you I just don't understand!
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I just got back from a good dog food store and decided to share this info, so this is part two of a post since no one posted in between.

I checked with my neice the vet on which dog foods might be best and also sent her two of the links osted in this thread. The second link she mentions was http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Spri...d/Contents.htm and the first and good one was http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/contrast.html. I still the the link she doesn't like has some merit. More important, I think her overall response provided a broad, common sense explanation of how to look at things. Thought everyone might be interested in her response:

"Ok, the first link has merit and offers two very good references, and is in general, an accurate explanation of dogs' and cats' dietary needs.

The second link you can stick in your urban legends categories. Whenever a web site starts off with my, me, I, just click the little x in the corner of the window, because the likelihood of it being anything but subjective, personal opinion and hearsay is fairly low. Notice no references were sited for their remarks about road kill and euthanized animals. There are very strict regulations about disposal of euthanized animal carcasses, so strict that many rendering companies are closing shop, because it's getting to be cost prohibitive to jump through all of the hoops necessary for proper disposal, so selling them to pet food manufacturers is not an option.

Just think about wild cats and wolves/coyotes and how they consume a kill. They do not preferentially just eat the muscles of their kill, they eat the whole carcass. That includes the organs, the intestines, the bones, etc. In so doing, they are ingesting protein (muscle), carbohydrates (ingesta of herbivores intestines), minerals (organs, and bones), in a very balanced fashion. The key element is balance. People have killed their exotic cats by feeding them meat only diets, so no diet consisting of meat alone is appropriate for a carnivore...don't let the name fool you.

When you are looking for information, look for well-referenced sources, and be especially careful with fats. There is generally not much fat in the diet of the wild carnivore (they normally kill the weaker prey animals, very young, very old, or sick and debilitated...therefore, not much fat on these animals). The canine and feline pancreas is not designed to handle the amount of fat that we consume in our diets, so trimmings from steaks, bacon grease, etc. are big no-nos.

Be sure to get a good reference for the vegetables and fruits that are safe for animals, as there are several that are toxic (grapes and raw onions) and should not be added to their diet.

Hope this helped somewhat."

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Acetylene

Yeah, the "grains are poison" thing is something I have heard from several sources. While it is true that they are not natural, it is also true that carnivores and omnivores (we should remember that a dog is more of an omnivore than a carnivore since they scavenge) are readily able to process them and are equipped to handle almost anything.

For dogs especially I think some grains can safely be used in their diet, but we should know that the grains are for OUR convenience as a cheaper food. Don't let people tell you that pets "need" whole grains--NO ONE "needs" grains. Grains are a creation of mankind to suit our desires for a cheaper and easier-to-produce food to feed our vast numbers.

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thingstodo

I have to disagree with that statement. Whole grains are a naturally growing item. Humans screw them all up through processing to make bleached white flour for Wonderbread and pretty, white rice. Left in their natural state - whole grains with the husks and brown rice with the exterior, and they are a very good, neccessary, natural food source.

As with everything, it's all about balance.

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james t kirk

I was told by the naturalpathic vet that grains are simply forbidden for cats. She told me that grains and rice are converted to sugar and stored as fat and are responsible for the large number of diabetic cats.

I didn't discuss dogs with her and I took her at her word. No grains for my cats.

My one cat was quite the little heffer when I got her and since switching her away from processed foods (that are high in fillers and grains) she has dropped several pounds. (Her stomach used to drag on the floor.) and she seems much healthier and her coat is definitely clean and free from dandruff.

As to the organs, the vet stated that liver was a good thing for cats and from time to time, I give them some liver. One loves it, the other won't touch it.

My big beef is with the dried "Kibble" type pet foods. No food that you can keep in a bag for 10 years without it rotting can be good for your pet period. Those foods are manufactured with two things in mind - convience and cheap.

Convienient because you can feed your dog or cat in about 30 seconds and kid yourself that it is good for the animal.

Price because they are all crap and are cheap to produce and therefore you make more profit.

snicka

Nutro Sensitive Stomach with Oatmeal. One of my pugs has a very sensitive stomach and will puke up anything but this special food, so they all get it because it is too hard to feed them individually.

Acetylene

Thingstodo, grains are a creation of man. We are not evolved to "need" grains any more than we "need" cane sugar.

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rockzilla

First of all, how exactly did mankind 'create' grains? I was under the impression that they were always there, and that humanity developed agriculture so we wouldn't have to forage for the fruits, vegetables and grains that have always been a necessary part of our diet.
Humans are designed to run off of glucose, a carbohydrate. Protein and fat can be converted into glucose for energy, but not very efficiently, and in the long term, can cause ketosis (when the blood becomes too acidic), this is fatal.
Cats and dogs aren't humans. They have evolved to live off of a protein-based diet. I don't know the mechanics of a cat's digestive system, but you don't see feral cats cooking little pots of rice in the wild too often, so it probably means that they don't need carbohydrates.

cyrnel

JT, If you should happen to speak with her and she has a standard handout on dog diet, I'd be thankful to hear it. I've bumped into a few alternates online but I like her balance of priorities and reasoning.

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thingstodo

I'd be interested to learn more about where you collected that tidbit of information. From all I've learned over the years, corn, wheat rice - all those things have been around. In fact, our teeth are shaped the way they are, in part, in order to process grain.

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Acetylene

Wild corn and wild wheat looks a lot like the sheaves of ornamental grass that you see sometimes decorating malls and restaraunts. the corn and wheat we eat in our pancakes have come a long, long way from their origins. While not to say that we would naturally eat seeds, such as wild rice (you can find this in health food stores and compare it to regular rice to see what I mean), please keep in mind that the period of time in which we have been growing wheat and corn is a blip in evolution, barely time for us to even start losing our wisdom teeth.

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longbough

My pooch gets California Natural brand dry dog food.

It's as good as dry food gets ... he's healthy and happy.

Sure, in a perfect world he'd have hand-prepared food ...

Then again, in a perfect world, I'd be eating organic, macrobiotic foods from a garden in my back yard instead of the cheeseburgers and fries and coca-cola I often get. It doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to die in the near future ... nor does it mean I'm going to suffer from coronary artery disease, acquire diabetes or get some form of cancer in the future... trust me, I'm a doctor.

Not all dry food is the same. California Natural lamb meal & rice formula is 21.0% protien and 11% fat. The protein source is 100% lamb meal and contains sunflower oil with brown and white rice. It costs more than the major brands but it's as good as dry food gets ... and apparently it tastes better than most foods to my dog. He eats better than I do.

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sapiens

Good point. So are many of the vegetables and fruits we eat, cows, pigs, sheep, chickens, and of course, domesticated dogs.

Something being "natural" doesn't necessarily make it right or better. Something being "artificial" or "man-made" doesn't make it wrong or worse.

Acetylene

Oh, I never said it was bad fo people. I just said it was unnecessary. That you don't have to lie awake at night wondering if it is ok that you only ate 2 pieces of bread today, or that your dog only had 1 pizza crust. Grains are very convenient and, indeed, the foundation of civilization, but that doesn't mean we NEED to eat them.

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Aced

We feed our dog a mixture of dry and canned food, and he seems to enjoy it very much. As snacks, he gets some sausages and Greenies, which he loves.

Jimellow

The cats get a mix of canned/dry food for breakfast and supper, with a bowl of dry food left out for snacking.

They also get turkey, chicken, even salmon, depending on what we eat for supper on a given night.

I could not imagine solely eating dry food for a week, let alone a lifetime, and thus canned food accounts for a large portion of their main meals.

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thingstodo

So your comments are opinion? And by the way, I do agree with your statement that most of what is commercially available today was created to make money.

I'm very familiar with wild rice and other wild grains/seeds. I'm also aware that humans have only been on earth for a short evolutionary period of time.

The regular "white" rice is processed rice with the husk removed. As is most of the process and bleached foods many people consume. And I was aware of how other wild grains grow, as well as the fact that we've commercialized the grain industry. That's where trans fats and high fructose foods came from!

My point is that hunter/gatherers ate what was available to them where they lived and during the time of the year. Based on that, humans did "need" grains to live as there were no other food sources during certain period of time.

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PartyMix

He's getting 1/2 and 1/2 dry /canned Innova EVO.
Sometimes but on a regular basis he'll get some doggie bag meat like steak or chicken instead of the can 1/2.
I must say that his coat has never felt this good until we switched over to the EVO.

Cynthetiq

We have 2 new cats, they don't like tuna.

As far as chicken feet, hmmm Chinese people eat it, they sell it just down the street, can by it fresh or already prepared.

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Atropos4

My dogs get science diet and sometimes lick dinner plates haha
Cleo is actually on purina OM at the moment to bring her down to a healthier weight. It works great!

My cats is another story. Raven has fatty liver disease so to make things easier all 4 of our cat's ate L/D science diet for two or three years. Raven's bloodlevels changed and we had to switch foods to try to lower it. Worked but then Iris became allergic to that particular food. Now they are all on Science diet sensitive stomach. I'm actually going through a bit of a rough time with these two right now. Both became ill this last week at the same time. Raven is back under control we believe. (stressed caused) Hopefully she's here for many more years. She almost died a while back and they gave her 3 years. I believe it's been four years now.
Iris they believe has inflammatory bowel disease. She flares up when she eats things that don't agree with her. (She eats anything she can get her fluffy paws on) The latest culprit was Victor's dog food.

We have tried cooking various things for them and it's hit and miss. Artemis refuses to eat anything that isn't her normal science diet food. After having Raven come down with liver disease from starving herself, I will not let another cat do the same.

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james t kirk

Sometimes ( a lot of times) cats won't touch real food - i.e. fish, poultry, etc. They simply have been conditioned to eat the dry crud.

How you do it is to slowly turn them round.

Feed them their usual bowl of crud, but mix in just a bit of chicken. As time goes on, you increase the real food and decrease the crud until eventually they are eating (and used to) real food.

warrrreagl

Grancey has recently started giving blueberry cottage cheese leftovers to the cats. As it works, she'll grab one of those Breakstone cottage cheese packages that comes with the blueberry filling in a separate sidecar, and a spoon, and eat it. But before she can even sit down to eat it, three cats are suddenly jockeying for position near her chair. When she's done, she'll hold the spoon out one way and the container the other way, and they'll divide themselves up over who gets to lick which part. If she doesn't put the container down quickly enough, our little fat one starts crying pitifully.

Never seen a cat eat blueberries before.

It's gotten so bad that if she can't find one of the cats for any particular reason, all she has to do is grab a plastic spoon out of the box and they'll all come flying from whatever dimension they were hiding in at the time.

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mtsgsd

I'm the second vote for preparing my own. I'd like to suggest to Kirk that while I agree with some of what you say, you don't have to be so dang militant about it. You don't change people's minds by yelling at them.

There is such a thing as quality kibble. For many people, it will end up being just as expensive as raw-feeding, but you can't beat the convenience. Even I sometimes miss being able to just dish out some dry food and be done. When I do, I just remember my favorite thing about raw-feeding: Their shit does not stink. Literally. If one of our dogs has an accident in our house (always our fault) we never know until we actually see it.