Sultana

It's about that time of year, isn't it?

I used to get flu shots every year, they tend to be free at the places I've worked at. Everyone once in a while I'd still get a flu, but of course you can't prevent every single strain out there.

But for the past couple of years I haven't, mostly because of the vaccination shortages. Now I'm kinda out of the habit. Plus, since I've started taking 1k mg of Vit. C every day, my sick time has been cut by at least 2/3. Maybe more. So I'm not as motivated.

But there are always folks out there who swear up and down that they get the flu from the shots. I don't think that's possible, but I've seen usually healthy co-workers fall ill after getting a flu shot.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

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Glory's Sun

I can't remember the last time I had the flu.. ok wait.. I think I was 11. That was also the last time I had a flu shot. I've always thought that if you take medicine or use antibacterial whatever on everything all the time, you just end up with a super germ. I carried the same idea into the flu shots. Knock on wood, I haven't been sick since the last time I had the flu. Sure a small sniffle here or there but nothing major. I never take medicine so maybe that's why? I have no idea.

So in short to your answer. No I don't take flu shots.

Grancey

I get flu shots every year. And yes, now is the time. My local pharmacy is giving them on Wednesdays, from 10 to 1, but I haven't made it yet. And no, I've never gotten the flu from a flu shot. That's not quite possible.

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Willravel

Nope. I don't like the idea of putting mercury or aluminum or formaldehyde or ethylene glycol directly into my blood seems kinda silly. Dunno why, I guess poison just rubs me wrong.

Put me down for plenty of vitimans and minerals, exercise, adequate rest, and such. OJ does more for my immune system than a shot ever can.

Lady Sage

Amen Mr. Will. I used to work in a nursing home where everyone not allergic to eggs got a shot every year. Funny thing... they all ended up sick anyway.

Due to vitamins, fresh OJ and the other things Mr. Ravel mentioned I have avoided any type of cold serious enough for me to visit a Dr for a period of 6 years. Food poisoning not withstanding.

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analog

Thimerosal, which is a form of mercury, is present in flu vaccines as a preservative in multi-dose vials. The amount used has never been shown to have adverse effects in adults. Some doctors recommend mercury-free versions of the vaccine for very young children, and most all for infants. Aventis-Pasteur makes the only preservative-free (thimerosal-free) version approved in the U.S. for children 6 thru 23 months. However, a single-dose injection made by Chiron Corp. and the FluMist nasal spray vaccine made by a joint effort of Wyeth and MedImmune do not contain any mercury and are available to adults. So, you can get the vaccine and not have that poison you fear so much.

But, you know, you guys can ignore the U.S. CDC (Center for Disease Control and Prevention), Britain's NHS, the World Health Organization (WHO), and many other medical authorities around the world and rely on that OJ instead.

Ch'i

OJ sounds fantastic, thank you analog.

Willravel

Mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, and ethylene glycol are poisons. Do you know why there are poisons in flu shots? Doctors give you a little poison to weaken your system, then they give you a little flu to hopefully allow your body to create antibodies. Once you have the antibodies in your system, you are theoretically more resistent to influenza. It's like stabbing youself in the leg with a pencil to prevent a gunshot wound.

kurty[B]

Nice analogy will... Add to the list of exercise, vitamins, OJ and so on, washing hands whenever I happen to visit the bathroom, or be near a sink. This seems to help out so much.

hunnychile

The few times I got the shot, were the years I got the flu.

Go figure.

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Ch'i

Avoid using antibacterial, unless you need it.

Bossnass

I've had some debates regarding this. I used to have a position similar to will, except without the false analogy. Nonetheless, two highly credible sources, my sister (honours genetics/immunolgy undergrad, current pharmacy student) and my wife (honours microbiolgy undergrad, currently 4th year med student) have convinced me that flu shots and the principles of inonculation/vaccination are sound, and not just theoretical. My mom is a nurse who works in pallative care and an assisted living seniors home also swears by them.

edit- Yes, I get them every year. Could be partly because of my Canadian health care, could be that I live a block away from a hospital, but I get one every year.

analog

I can't tell if you're being crass and making asinine analogies on purpose or not.

Grasshopper Green

I haven't had a flu shot in years, but I got them regularly as a child. I never got the flu until 3 years ago, and I got it again last year. I'm planning on getting a flu shot this year...anything in a flu shot can't be worse than breathing the air in Salt Lake City in the wintertime (anyone who has lived here knows about the infamous inversions). Vitamin C is a good thing, but I'll take my chances with the shot...I never want the flu again...it's horrible.

And on a sidenote...I was always under the impression that vaccination COULD cause illness in someone with an already strained immune system (since a vaccine is an injection of a small amount of the bug)...does anyone know if this is really true?

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newtx

No way. I considered getting them a few years back. Asked a couple of buddies who are doctors and they didn't take the shots.

snowy

I get a flu shot any year I'm planning on doing any kind of work in or around a school.

Schools are breeding grounds for influenza and other illness, and the one time I've gotten the flu has convinced me to get the shot. The people you should be asking if they get shots are teachers. No one spends more time around sick people, seriously. You would be surprised at how sick some kids are when they come to school, and how some parents are fully aware of the fact their kids are sick.

I take a lot of preventative measures besides the flu shot, but for other things, since there is no immunization for the common cold. I am especially prone to sinus infections and strep throat, so I take a daily multivitamin, stay hydrated, and practice frequent handwashing.

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Willravel

Crass, as always.

I know my analogy stinks, but it made me laugh when it popped into my head. Want a better analogy? Fine.

Let's say the US military were to hire mercinaries to attack a nuclear powerplant. The idea is that it will give real life testing to security measures already in place, but it won't be as serious as an actual terror attack. We give them semi-lethal ammo (rubber bullets, blunt objects like bats or canes, tasers, throwing stars, tear gas), and let them loose. They go in and can really hurt some of our security personel, but at the end of the exercise, we are more ready for an actual attack from terrorists.

The question is: why don't we do this? For the same reasons that flu shots don't make sense. These guys, the mercs and the shots, can do as much damage as the real threats, the terrorists and influenza. A better way to prepare is to keep the facility or your body, in excellent condition. What I said above: lots of fruits and veggies, regular exercise, consistantly good night's sleep, and things of that nature. Our bodies immune system is what will ultimately stop influenza no matter what, so why not have marines in there ready to deal with the problem instead of security personel who have had a little combat experience?

Aro23

sometimes when you get the flu shot you can still get sick due to the weak strain of the flu that was part of the shot. if you're able to get it, why not go for it since it'll help your body adjust to fight the flu so your body won't suffer as much without the flu shot.

Zeraph

Yet many things are poison in larger doses.

You can get sick from a vaccine, they're supposed to be weakened or inert but sometimes they make a mistake.

And to answer the question, I don't get flu shots. Havn't ever (except maybe as a kid.) And haven't had the flu in over a decade.

Lady Sage

There is definately something to be said for healthy living!

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jRuntlets

A point for Will:
Everyone in the millitary is required to get a flu shot, so yeah, given your theory (weapons aside) our millitary would be really weak at this time of year due to the "poision" in the shot. But they aren't... so hum.

And to follow up Zeph, LOTS of things can be poisionious espically in large doses. Hell, a person can kill themselves by drinking too much water does that mean we shouldn't drink it? No.

Many times vaccinations will have smaller side effects or reactions. I've been vaccinating my horses for years for an illness called Strangles (which infects the lymphnodes and causes them to burst, most times it is not fatal because the main nodes infected are directly between the cheeks or above the eyes) which is not as common of a vaccine as say West Nile at this point. However, dealing with a few days of lethargy after the vaccine is much better than struggling for months with softball sized lymphnodes which finally burst and have to be cleaned, while the horse is kept sedated from the pain. Mind you, the vaccine cannot fully prevent Strangles but if it does not prevent it it lessens the degree of the illness. I have seen this work because my then 23 year old horse (at that age, given that he has cancer and other various problems it is concidered that he has a "weakened" immune system... though you couldn't prove it by his attitude) was stabled next to a horse who broke out with a severe case of Strangles and was weeping puss into his stall. He didn't get sick, so to me the small side effects and the little bit of "poision" I put in him is worth the risk, instead of having him in pain for weeks.

Vaccines have good points and a few falling points. To each their own. Just keep in mind that many times a vaccine cannot prevent the illness 100% but can keep the degree of the illness down. Who wouldn't want that when they're puking their guts out for days on end?

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ShaniFaye

As a person with chronic resp problems since birth, yes I get one..... As a person with hemochromatosis fresh OJ is not an option for me, though I do try to take enuff in supplements to compensate.

There have been two years in the last 5 that I didnt get one, and both times I had a case of the flu that was awful...almost 2 weeks out of work both times.

I've got a call into my Dr right now trying to find out if I can still have one with my surgery coming up in 2 weeks.

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Toaster126

Never had one. Not opposed to getting one, just don't make the time for it.

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Sultana

Well, I've not gotten sick after a flu shot, and this:
convinces me that I'm going to make the time and effort for them again.

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Willravel

I don't know why you put the word poison in parenthesis, I think we all know that mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, and ethylene glycol are poisons. I doubt anyone here would argue that point. Your point is that you're being poisoned only a little, and I agree on that point. There is very little poison in flu shots, but if something is going into my body, I don't really see a need for any poison, espically when any doctor can tell you that being healthy is the best defence against diseases, including influenza.

highthief

Hell, vacinations against things like smallpox and diptheria and polio and measles have eradicated these illnesses from developed countries and indeed most of the undeveloped world too, saving hundreds of millions of lives. Vaccines are effective forms of protection against a variety of viral illnesses. Anyone who thinks otherwise really needs to study just twentieth century history.

Due to the mutating nature of the flu virus, no single vaccine will protect against all strains of the flu, and indeed, a wide variety of other upper respiratory germs float around, expecially in winter that are not influenza but which may be mistaken for same. Often enough, people get one of these after getting a flu jab and think "oh, the vaccine made me sick", when indeed, this is very unlikely. It is far, far more likely that the person has come into contact with anyone of these other infections.

So, at any rate, both the missus and I receive our shots annually, have remained flu free and hope to continue on that way! Not sure about getting the little one innoculated though, the jury is still out on innoculations for the under 2.

That's why in 1918 the flu killed so many people aged 18-40 in the prime of life? They were the prime targets.

Of course, general good health is great, and infleuenza usually takes its greatest toll on the young and elderly, but it is no always so, Will.

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Baraka_Guru

Remember that the most important discoveries related to nutrition and human biology all happened in the second half of the twentieth century.

I, too, have members of my family in the healthcare industry and they will tell me the ins and outs of getting the flu shot. I've heard from various sources that the flu shot is a bit of a gamble to begin with because it is designed to predict the next strain of the upcoming season. Predictions related to biology are far from highly accurate. In many cases, flu shots are ineffective because the strain that appears is much different than the strain that was targeted for vaccination.

I myself don't get flu shots because I don't get the flu (and the gamble thing of course, too. I don't see the value in them). Since I was a young adult, I've been sure to take care of myself through diet, exercise and sleep. My immune system has benefited as a result. I've taken a multivitamin at least since my first memories, and I'm guessing this is just one of many factors as to why I don't get the flu.

Not everyone is as fortunate as I am (maybe it's genetics), but I'm guessing there are many things people aren't doing to protect their health and well being. I typically don't get colds or headaches, either. I sleep it off whenever I feel something coming on. "Listening" to your body is important.

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highthief

My guess is the average 150 pound farmer or soldier from 1918 was healthier in terms of nutrition than the average 240 pound, Big Mac eating, Slushie-slurping, couch potato of the modern era.

Truth be told, the main thinking surrounding the fact that young adults were the big targets of 1918 is that a previous strain may have provided some immunity to the older generation, and due to the fact that so many young men were congregating in army barracks and camps and within industry in the cities and so the virus had many opportunities to infect others. That was the pattern in NA and Europe - it would be interesting to analyze the pattern in the less developed parts of the world which were also infected but which did not have the same congregations of young men and where and earlier strain may not have circulated.

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Supple Cow

I'll agree that being healthy is optimal. But it's a little paranoid to say "being poisoned only a little" - if it were still poisonous in those small amounts, then they wouldn't make flu vaccines using them. The word "poison" as applied by the science community (including the FDA) is just a classification based on the dose that is lethal or severely harmful. I forget the actual number the FDA uses for the standard, but I think it's something like 50mg or less to be considered a poison. If they use so little of these poisonous substances that they are no longer severely harmful or lethal, and you are still worried about that they are called "poisons", then you are kind of missing the point. Booze and Tylenol aren't considered poisons by the FDA (not last time I checked), but if you consume enough of them (separately or together), you'll find they can be quite lethal.

I have a quotation written in my old biology notebook that applies here:

"Everything is poison, there is poison in everything. Only the dose makes a thing not a poison".

--Paracelsus, the father of toxicology

But back to the OP - yes, I generally do get flu shots when I have the time, as long as they are affordable and there isn't a shortage (since I'm not elderly or a child).

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Willravel

Mercury:
Aluminum:
Formaldehyde:
Ethylene glycol:
Each of these is extremly dangerous in their own right, even in smal doses. The effects of several can be cumulative, as they stay in your system. What happens after a lifetime of flu shots? We should find out soon, as flu shots are only about 50-60 years old.

highthief

I imagine you get more aluminum every time you drink a six-pack than you do from a flu shot, would be my guess.

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genuinegirly

I've never gotten a flu shot, but this thread provides all sorts of interesting information and perspectives on it. I've never had a free option of obtaining a flu shot, which is why I haven't been willing to get one. My mother and my sister get them every year because they work at schools. Their employer provides the flu shots for free.

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snowy

Your student health center should offer a flu shot clinic with the shots discounted for students. I would look into it. It probably won't be free, but at the very least it will be cheap.

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Lady Sage

Thank you Mr. Will for the information you posted. I find it quite useful to be honest and am glad someone took the time to look up those facts.

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analog

willravel:

Until you post the lethal or toxicity dosage requirements for those contents, along with how much is actually in your average 5ml dose of flu vaccine, I (and anyone else with common sense) don't give a flying shit about your definitions of what are bad for you.

This is the argument you and the other conspiracy sites i've seen are presenting for the flu shot contents:

Did you know that fluoride is bad for you? Yeah, it's a poison. That's why I don't use toothpaste, even though "dentisits" say it's ok to use. I see through the bullshit. If you ingest fluoride, you can get very seriously sick and many people have DIED from it!!

--------------

That's great. But you know why it's full of shit? Because it never mentions the dose requirements to harm or kill a person, nor does it indicate the usual amount found in a single unit of use for toothpaste.

Because if you included actual facts, you'd realize that fluoride is lethal at a dose of 5mg per kg of body weight. Most people would have to ingest almost an entire tube of toothpaste to die from it.

For example: Formaldehyde has been shown lethal at one PINT down to possibly as little as one ounce. (The reason for any large disparity in amounts like that is because if anyone ever dies an undetermined death and has some abnormal chemical in their body, they will attribute cause of death to the only variable they can prove. So, the typical lethal dose may be a lot closer to a pint.) There are 30ml in an ounce. A flu shot is 5ml. There are trace amounts of formaldehyde in a flu shot. Do the easy math. The reason formaldehyde is even found in the flu shot is because the virus is inactivated in formaldehyde, and a little is drawn up with the virus. It's then mixed with saline, which is the bulk of the liquid in the shot.

Do you people see now why it's so dangerous to read things and not question the lack of backing proof? Give the content amounts and lethal dose amounts of those "poisons" and then maybe i'll stop laughing at this conspiracy-sounding BS.

Jason762

No. My mom used to et them all the time, and she always got sick from it.

So I try to avoid them. I just try to eat healthy and wash frequently... though I'm dieting, and that (seems to) lower your immune system.

Oh yeah, and I drink the Airbourne Formula every morning and night. Does this stuff actually work? A bit expensive, but if it works it's worth it...

analog

Airborne is a giant shot of Vitamin C (1000mg) and some herbal stuff that can't be proven to do anything but drain your wallet. I will sometimes take a 1000mg Vitamin C caplet at the onset of a cold because it does normally help- and you can get a bottle of 100 plain old normal 1000mg Vitamin C caplets for a few bucks, not the nearly dollar a pill or more that Airborne charges.

Also, taking it 1000mg a day (either as a pill or in the form of Airborne) as a regular thing isn't really helpful. The reason they work is because, at the onset of a cold, the sudden 1000mg of Vitamin C gives your body the boost it needs to help overcome the initial action of the cold. Taking it every day like that doesn't mean it keeps your immune system at a higher level, it just means you're taking 1,667% of the normal recommended daily value and you'll pass all that you don't use.

From the Airborne website FAQ section, bolding my own:

I love how they dodge recommending it daily later on, while still asserting that people do take it that way. Funny wording so they can say they don't actually recommend it.

Airborne also contains about 230mg of sodium, which is about 10% of normal daily allowance (based on 2000 calorie diet). So if you have issues with sodium, it may not be a good idea to use it. Ask your doctor if you have issues with sodium intake.

Bottom line, ask a pharmacist or a doctor. That's exactly what my pharmacist tells every patient who asks if it's worth it. We sell a store brand equivalent, so he's actually advising against buying something of our store brand that's much more money than just the Vitamin C pills alone.

Willravel

yo
Actually, the reason I posted that was so that those of you who get the shots would actually ask your doctor that very question. I'm not 100% sure what amounts of those poisons are dangerous at what dose. Be sure to ask what dose of mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, and ethylene glycol can be dangerous or lethatl, THEN mention that you're getting your shot.
I have heard that, so I asked a dentist. Aparently the flouride in toothpaste or mouthwash is fine, but the flouride in water supplies is suspect. Go figure, eh? Anyone who is unsure about any of this should take to your doctor. I am NOT a doctor.
It's not full of shit, it's unresearched. Yes, flouride is deadly at 5/1,000,000 (1/200,000...so for me, a 185 pound man, that's approx: .4 grams, or 420 mg of flouride) your body weight. When does it make you sick? Less than 1% of what it takes to kill you. That's less than 4 mg. Think about it.
That's great. But you know why it's full of shit? Because it never mentions the dose amount. It says "trace amounts". So what is the exact measurment of a trace amount?

Wait, wait...
Isn't the effect of formaldehyde cumulitive? Smae as aluminum, mercury, and flouride?

Conspiracy BS indeed.

Nimetic

I'm fairly sure that the shots don't contain any of those substances. Why would they include these - the first two aren't even organic?

I have them sometimes.

I'm sure that I'd be fine without them also. I don't quite buy the idea of them given people the flu either....

For example... I've also had hep A, hep B, tetanus, cholera and diptheria immunizations (plus a few more probably). ... and I've not come down with any of those after the injection.

So why would flu be different?

analog

Mercury (or rather the derivative used) is present in an amount less than 1.25mcg in a single dose (5ml) vaccine. http://www.fda.gov/cber/label/inflgla083105LB.pdf

A lethal dose for mercury for an adult is 1 to 4 grams (g) or 14 to 57 milligrams per kilogram body weight (mg/kg) for a 70-kg person.

So at the lowest concentration of 1 gram per kg, that's 980mg needed to be lethal for a 70kg person. That means you'd need 980,000 micrograms... the shot will only give you 1.25 micrograms. 1% per your "1% will make you sick" formula is 9,800mcg, which means you'd have to get the shot 7,840 times to cumulatively get up to just 1% of the lowest known lethal dose for a human.

Formaldehyde is present in an amount of less than or equal to 50mcg per dose.

Here's putting that into perspective for you:

So the average is between 1 and 20 µg (often written as mcg for micrograms) per cubic meter of air. You get one shot with 50mcg in it, once per year. The average adult breathes 12 to 20 times per minute. How much do you think you're breathing in, on an average day?

I'm sorry to completely fuck over your bullshit conspiracy-theory assertions with facts. Facts will do that, though.

"You lose! Good day, sir!" - Willy Wonka.

1. Formaldehyde. Geneva, World Health Organization, 1989 (Environmental Health Criteria, No. 89).
2. Formaldehyde. In: Wood dust and formaldehyde. Lyon, International Agency for Research on Cancer, 1995, pp. 217–362 (IARC Monographs on the Evaluation of the Carcinogenic Risk of Chemicals to Humans, Vol. 62).
3. Air quality guidelines for Europe. Copenhagen, WHO Regional Office for Europe, 1987 (WHO Regional Publications, European Series, No. 23).