ShaniFaye

Guess I wont need mine this year, turns out the illness Dave and I have had for the last friggin week IS the flu.

As for anyone that says they dont believe you get sick from the shot...thats your perogative....all I can say is every single time I get it....I get mildly sick, as does my daughter

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Willravel

Analog, a few points:Most people would get warned or even banned for making such a statement, and I don't think the fact that you are a moderator should make you exempt. Even leaving that alone for a moment, I was perfectly clear in my last post that if anyone had any questions they should contact a real doctor. Why would a conspiracy theorist make such a request?! That's like a holocaust conspiracy theorist saying, "Go talk to a holocaust survivor". Think about it. I'm []Inot[/I] a conspiracy theorist for asking questions. I'm not a sheep. There is a big difference between the two.

How much formaldehyde can the lungs take directly into the blood stream? Is it 100% of what is in the air? Or is it more likely that it only takes in a small percentage of what's in the air?

As for mercury, we can get mercury from any of a multitude of sources, and mercury stays in your system. If you eat certian fish, for example, you can get a very large doze of mercury. The question is, how much mercury does the averag person already have in his or her system, and how will the 1.25-5 mcg of mercury do in addition to what you already have? Will flu shots make you more or less likely to get mercury poisoning?

Bossnass

Regarding Aluminum;

Aluminum is wonderfully important and prevalent; the most common metal (as % of amount on earth) and the 2nd most used (to iron).

It has not been shown to have any use by living organisms. However, it has also not been shown to be dangerous. It was linked to Alzheimer's, then that link was debunked. There are a very small (unconfirmed%) who are allergic on a contact basis. Aluminum also may function as a neurotoxin, although that research did not indicate the required levels the basis for toxicity beyond that it appears to change blood-brain barrier. Certainly, as Will quoted, if you already have liver problems and are treated with aluminum contaiminated solutions, it could pose a problem.

That said, aluminum is everywhere. Everyone has had signifcant exposure. I would guess that you consume significantly more aluminum in each antacid tablet than in many flu shots. Or when you used antipersperant. And you were exposed the last time you painted wood, consumed anything from a can, cooked anything in an aluminum pan. Or were near any construction. And even then, the aluminum won't probably won't hurt you, unless you happen to be a very select percentage of the population, and then it might have a chance of being harmful.

I'm not about to search for various sources, I'm 100% confident that if you care enough you'll easily be able to find them. I've done research on aluminum in the past. Using "flu shots have aluminum and aluminum is toxic" is a terribly weak argument.

Willravel

From post #30
and some additional information from the same link:

Bossnass

Originally Posted by Bossnass
has also not been shown to be dangerous.

From post #30
Quote:
Aluminum toxicity occurs in people with renal insufficiency who are treated by dialysis with aluminum-contaminated solutions or oral agents that contain aluminum. The clinical manifestations of aluminum toxicity include anemia, bone disease, and progressive dementia with increased concentrations of aluminum in the brain.

Conceeded in previous post. People with liver problems treated with x-contaminated solution. You can replace x with virtually anything.

...
Prolonged intravenous feeding of preterm infants with solutions containing aluminum ---is associated--- with impaired neurologic development.

"Association" is a nice catchphrase where a real correlation or proof has not been shown.

Exposure to high levels of aluminum --may-- result in respiratory problems (aluminosis). Inhalation of bauxite (aluminum ore) fumes --may-- cause pulmonary fibrosis. Aluminum in the bloodstream --may-- lead to neurological symptoms and --may-- be fatal.

If you remove the "may"s and that is a scary statement. With them, it may be scary, but isn't.

This thread is really going off on a tangent. I get flu shots because I am convinced beyond doubt that the immunolgy science is proven to work. I agree that preventative medicine is a better course, but I disagree that the princples behind vaccination are flawed.

The second argument that was presented is "well, the flu shots have poison, so I don't take them" is plausible. However, the amounts of said substances do not pose a danger, and such an arguement seems to be grasping at straws. All of the substances have many other larger and more common exposure factors than in flu shots.

I don't have suffcient background to argue against mercury or formaldehyde, although I honestly don't think there is harm presented in signicant amounts of formadehyde. Glycol is bad, but again, it is presented in such small quantities that it is not a danger. You don't drink a bottle of antifreeze to wash down a flu shot.

Finally, I know a fair bit about aluminum. I stand by my previous argument that it has not been shown to be a danger. It is suspected, in unique circumstances, but has not been shown.


(edited to emphasize where I wanted the emphasis)

Ch'i

Its nice to see the mods enforcing the rules (hmm?), and having an orgy of self-proclaimed victory at the same time. Thank you analog.

Sensitive subject?

Brewmaniac

Yes, I get a flu shot every year, as everyone in my family. My compromised immune system and limited respiratory status, requires me to always get one. If I get the nasty strain that they are trying to prevent, it will kill me. As it is every couple of years I usually get some cold that turns into pneumonia.

From CDC website:

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/keyfacts.htm

Preventing the Flu: Get Vaccinated

The single best way to prevent the flu is to get a flu vaccination each fall. There are two types of vaccines:

* The "flu shot" – an inactivated vaccine (containing killed virus) that is given with a needle. The flu shot is approved for use in people 6 months of age and older, including healthy people and people with chronic medical conditions.
* The nasal-spray flu vaccine – a vaccine made with live, weakened flu viruses that do not cause the flu (sometimes called LAIV for “Live Attenuated Influenza Vaccine”). LAIV is approved for use in healthy people 5 years to 49 years of age who are not pregnant.

About two weeks after vaccination, antibodies develop that protect against influenza virus infection. Flu vaccines will not protect against flu-like illnesses caused by non-influenza viruses.

I agree that if your a healthly person, who dosen't get colds and other respiratory illnesses, you probably don't need one. Protect your children and encourage your older parents.

As for mod's leading by example, there isn't much to say!

__________________
"That's a joke... I say, that's a joke, son"

canuckguy

so true, not a big poster anymore and threads like this are the reason why. thread destroyed......

Lady Sage

I understand what you are saying but not all of us are like that.

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

analog

In no way was this statement meant to be an attack:

"I'm sorry to completely fuck over your bullshit conspiracy-theory assertions with facts. Facts will do that, though."

Am I yelling? No. Did I call you anything? No. Did I, in fact, only go after your argument, and not you the person? Yes. Calling your argument bullshit conspiracy theory is not an affront to you, it's an attack on your argument- plain and simple. We've had out the "attack the argument, not the poster" conversation time and time and time again. Ask most anyone who's posted in the Politics forum for a while, they'll tell you how often I've hammered in "attack the subject and argument, NOT the poster".

So, again, does calling your argument bullshit conspiracy theory, after i'd already called on you several times to prove yourself, and you had yet to prove one single iota of the vast array of claims you made... make that an attack on you............. or an attack on the material you're presenting?

It's me going after your assertions. Did I call you names? No. I did not do that, and I would not do that. I said, "prove that bullshit conspricy-theory stuff". Attack the subject, not the poster. I never once attacked you. It's a very long-standing rule of debate here on the TFP.

I have very much enjoyed the entirety of our exchange in this thread, as I love a good debate. I don't know where you're getting any hostility from, i'm really enjoying the ability to share knowledge and engage in conversation. I don't know why you feel attacked, but i'm sorry. Maybe I could have phrased it differently, but words are just words. If the ones I chose made you upset, then I'm sorry those words have bad meaning for you, but i'm just having normal conversation.

Again, I'm sorry if it came across as an attack, I apologize.

I wish text wasn't so... pale? I like that. It's just... pale.

I didn't think the playful addition of a whimsical Willy Wonka quote could be taken for an orgy of self-proclaimed victory. It's just a funny line from Gene Wilder. I wish he still did some movies, but he's like 73 now... lived a full life, that guy. heh

Ch'i

I think the amount of cursing, and mood set by your posts gave some inkling towards anger, and hostility.

Be mindful of how what you say might be construed by others.

Willravel

I never accoused you of personaly attacking me or anyone else. Well I wasn't the only one that thought you were becoming hostile. When I prove someone wrong in a discussion or debate on TFP, I usually move on. Rubbing it in when you think you're right lacks something I have found to be imparitive on TFP and in life: tact. It's not like I was ignoring you. We were engaged in a point by point discussion. Instead of making your arguments, you suddenly say that you "fucked over" my "bullshit conspiracy-theory". Just to clarify: my wife is the only person to fuck me over, and I never put fourth theories about conspiracies. Would you tell your teacher or coworker that you fucked over her bullshit argument? I hope not. I suggested, correctly, that poisons were still poisons no matter the dose. I know that you probably won't get sick from a flu shot, but I made it clear I wasn't comfortable with injecting myself with the poisons, and explained why. I wasn't trying to fool anyone out of taking their shots. I want people to talk to their doctor if they have questions. Mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde, and ethylene glycol are still poison, even though the doses they come in flu shots is negligable. I also don't smoke anymore because it's dangerous. Am I going to get lung cancer if I were to smoke? Probably not, but it's possible. It's simply a health choice.

Warlock!

I get colds (coughing, sore throat, achey) alot... like 4-6 times each year. If I'm around my parents and cough a couple times, they'll always say "Why don't you go get a flu shot?" I would always tell them I have a cold, not a flu (by my definition anyways).

Well, one year I got a flu shot. I was sick more often that year than any year I could remember. That was 3 years ago, and I haven't had a flu shot since. However, I don't get sick as often anymor either... maybe twice/year I get a cold. Coincidence? Probably... but there you have it.

Sultana

Analog, I'd like to know what *does* constitute an attack to you. Is everything OK as long as you don't call someone a name?

No, Will and Chi and brian and brewmaniac were not the only people who thought that you were using aggressive language and very disrespectful word choices in this thread. I am at a loss to understand how you can post something like that, and then be so surprised at the response. The words you decide to use have a strong emotional connotation to the negative, dismissive, arrogant side of the spectrum, and are provocative.

"I'm sorry to completely fuck over your bullshit conspiracy-theory assertions with facts. Facts will do that, though."
vs.
"I can't accept that line of reasoning. You are countering proven scientific data with unquantifiable *emotional* responses..."

Can you see the difference? I can. The first is a flat-out rude taunt. The second is an unemotional statement/response, which is what true debate is based on.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

snowy

I would also like to know the answers to some of the questions Sultana presented in this post. As far as I know, mods are meant to be rolemodels of behavior for others on the board. If that is the case, the way that this thread has gone is unacceptable to me as a user of this board.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

highthief

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Lady Sage

*Trips highthief*

I still say BahHumbug to flu shots...

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

analog

Then I'd respectfully point out if it's so easy to re-translate it into meaning the exact same thing using different words, you can see why word choice shouldn't be something people hold me over the coals for. If it means the same thing, then it is up to you to "read" it how you want to read the emotion in it.

If you can so easily translate my "strong emotional connotation to the negative, dismissive, arrogant side of the spectrum, and provocative" words directly without losing any of the meaning of the sentence, then why is it so hard to see that this entire ordeal is the product of misunderstanding.

This is just an example: I tell someone to fuck off. There really is no way to say that another way and retain the exact meaning.

But since you can take what you deem to be "proper" words and reconstruct the precise meaning of my sentence.... are we not just discussing semantics? Are we not just falling victim to the lack of intonation inherent to the text-based world here?

Most of all- is it really my fauilt that, through NO intention of my own, my words are being MIStranslated, MISinterpreted as negative and dismissive and such? How can that really be MY fault? While I still very much apologize if anyone saw that in my words, I'd point out that for every person in any thread who has ever said that it came across as negative, I can give you an example of at least one person to match who sees exactly what i'm saying, and how i'm saying it, because they're not reading my words to be mean, or negative, or anything. They understand that a person can speak with conviction and with feeling, having nothing whatsoever to do with disrespect, or attacks. I'm not saying anyone here CAN'T understand that, I just think that when it comes to me, specifically, you simply won't see it.

I'd also respectfully point out that if I took a roster in any thread where this sort of thing has happened, I can easily match up all the same names from all the threads in which this has happened- the "usual suspects", so to speak. It's a simple fact that there are some people who will never see what I write as anything but mean, or nasty, or negative, or an attack. They just never will. I'm not going to name names, that would be terribly inappropriate- but you know who you are.

I do everything in my power to help cater to those who misinterpret what I write, but it seems to no avail. I can't change the entire structure of my writing style because a handful of people misinterpret (and i'm NOT saying you do it on purpose or anything like that) the words I use.

The bottom line is- if another word can be used to mean the same thing, but YOU say MY version is mean, then where does that leave me? Your personal opinion has now made me angry? I'm not angry. Because you deem my words to be x, y, and z, suddenly they just ARE because you say so?

That is why I find it difficult to make everyone happy. No one's ideas are all going to fall in line. Not every person will say "this" means "this" in every case. Many times people read words and "this" becomes "that".

I'd just mention, as i've brought up earlier in this thread, that it is a very long-standing rule of debate in TFP, most notably created and used for Tilted Politics, that it is not ok to attack the person, just the opinion. I never attacked him, and he has specifically said he didn't feel attacked. Some of you are insisting I attacked him, though I adamentaly deny it because I would never attack a person, and he has specifically stated he didn't feel attacked.

So... I mean, there's only one way to say this and i'm sorry, but, the only people who feel it was an attack are those who weren't on the receiving end of what they called the attack, and who regularly come after me for my "tone" in posts. How many times can the same handful of people come after me, attacking me the person in public no less, over my word choice before I feel like I just can't make you happy, and I can't ever speak nice enough for your taste, your preference, your opinion, or what have you.

Side note: If someone came after another member like you guys come after me, throat-first, with your very personal condemnations and how harshly you speak down to me, this would not stand- you'd be asked to take it to private, and keep it civil. I have, however, never squelched a person for voicing against me however they saw fit. Ever. I have never touched a single post of anything ever said against me. Why? Because I'm NOT the asshole you say I am. I'm NOT the bad person you insist I am. I'm NOT the crazy power-hungry, plays-by-his-own-rules whatever else you call me so frequently. I am a good person, dammit. I let everyone and anyone take their shots at me and all I ever do is take it and offer my sincere, whole-hearted apologies for upsetting you.

I think Sultana's current signature sums it up pretty well (and I'm not being sarcastic)...

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." - Shakespeare, Hamlet

Some people will just always read what I write and see it as bad, no matter what. For that, I am truly sorry- but I can't help anyone with that.

Lady Sage

What?!?!?!?!?!

Shut up Sage......

Flu shots are evil! (One must stay on topic)
Needles hurt and doctors visits are expensive and time off work is SO hard to come by these days. It really isnt worth the effort.

So who has got their shots already and who will abstain from getting them like they would abstain from doin it with a starving rabid pit bull?

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

Elphaba

I haven't chosen to do flu shots because:

1) I am not a member of the most vulnerable populations.
2) We are having another late arriving flu vaccine, and have been asked to save the injections for the very young and the very old.
3) I work alone in a home office and get little exposure to the various bugs that are passed about by human exposure.

Bottom line, my risk for flu is small and there are others that are at greater risk. I will feel the same should there be a flu pandemic.

jorgelito

I plan on getting a flu shot this year. Other years I have either forgotten or there wasn't enough supply (go figure). $25 bucks at all the local pharmacies this year so I'm going to do it. I figure, why not, it's one more level of protection. Besides, people suck. They are always going to work, school, public places while sick, sneezing and coughing on everything then touching door knobs, handles, railings, elevator buttons, money, lecture hall seats - well, everything, spreading their sickness like the inconsiderate selfish jerks they are. Please people, if your sick, stay at home!!! Thanks.

Elph, how come you guys have low supply but we have plenty? Is it state to state? I always thought it was a national thing.

Lady Sage

Give us more sick time and fix it so we wont get into trouble if we call off.... give me some more staff at work so if theres a next time they want to admit me to the hospital I dont have to say... sorry I have to open the branch tomorrow.

Then I will gladly stay home and hack up a lung alone.

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

highthief

When I get my shot later this month, it will not only serve to protect me but also to protect my daughter who, at two years old, may not receive full protection from the flu vaccine. If all her primary caregivers receive vaccinations (me, my wife, my mum) then the chances of her getting the flu are much reduced.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

jorgelito

I think you're onto something there Lady Sage

Gatorade Frost

I will definitely be getting a flu shot in 9 days. Not a chance in hell that I'll be living in a dorm without a little protection.

__________________
I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well."
Emo Philips

Lady Sage

Well Mr. Jorgelito, I completely agree with you. If I am hacking up a lung I should stay home... unfortunately you only get so many sick days and we all have paychecks and most people I know live paycheck to paycheck and we dont want to be in trouble at work so we all do many things we shouldnt while sick.

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

Elphaba

Last year was a national shortage, but for some reason Washington is either short or running late on the shots. I suspect the state is responsible for ordering the shots, but I honestly don't know. The article in the paper said we wont be seeing any more until November.

My mother got hers a couple weeks ago, and for the first time she became very ill.

Grasshopper Green

When I started at my current job, my boss at the time basically told me that I better be on my deathbed if I called in sick. So, I went to work with stomach flu, regular flu, strep throat, and run of the mill colds. I probably would have been fired if I had taken the necessary recuperation time off for each of these illnesses. The ironic thing is she came down with strep throat about two weeks after I got it...and called out sick. I wish I could take time off when I get sick, because working while sick is absolutely miserable.

Working with the public (and in particular, in the pharmacy section of the grocery store) lends itself to encountering lots and lots of sick people. I do my best to not get sick, and that is going to include getting a flu shot this year.

__________________
"They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

Formerly Medusa

Baraka_Guru

We are responsible for our own immunity. I never blame other people when I contract an illness. That is the nature of these things, it is easily spread via human contact and proximity, and you can spread these things even before showing any serious symptoms. So how is it selfish if you don't even know you're sick?

And like Medusa said, not everyone has the privilege of taking time off to fully recuperate, especially when the flu can last for weeks.

Please don't be angry at other people for being sick... make all the right decisions to improve your own immunity with a proper balance of nutrition, stress management, and hygiene.

I do, however, accept criticism of those who don't practice these things, especially if they are prone to getting sick. It still amazes me the number of people I notice in public washrooms who inadequately "wash" their hands or who don't even bother going through this ineffective gesture...

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

canuckguy

I had a bad reaction the first year i got one. Chest pains the whole nine yards, was very scary. I still get them if i get around to it. In Ontario, in most cases as a full time employee you are allowed 10 sick days a year. There are excepts i think for some industries, but it is a standard in ontario. Most companies will pay for half of the days if call in sick.
My employeer pays the full 10 out and tells you to use them if your sick. Stay home if you have cold don't bring it to work is our motto.

jorgelito

Sure, sure, I understand where you guys are coming from but what I am getting at is the largely irresponsible people who know they are sick, then go out in public - to the store, school, work and then proceed to cough, sneeze on everything. In that sense it is selfish. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask that people exercise common courtesy, decency and common sense right? If you have the flu, please cover your mouth when you cough or snezze and don't touch things that other people touch too like rails, handles, door knobs, desks, lecture hall seats, elevator buttons etc.

I think corporate America is also catching on to the benefits of having a healthy workforce which is why so many now offer either free or heavily discounted flu vaccinations etc at the office. It makes sense to prevent an outbreak of the flu etc than to have to deal with an inefficient, sick workforce that ends up not being very productive.

Just think, would you like it if you see the barista at starbucks sneezing and coughing all over the place? Or if your waiter at lunch obviously has the flu or something and is still trying to work? Or if you work in an office, I would be turned off as a client if the guy making the presentation was ill.

I think you have a terrible boss if they are going to threaten you like that. I assume they provide excellent health care then if they are going to "not allow" you to be sick. Most of the places I've worked at, the supervisor or boss will send an employee home immediately if they are sick or becoming sick. Even companies like Starbucks give out sick days.

If I was your customer and I saw you were sick, I would complain to your boss that you are sick and should not be working etc.... Especially since she got to take time off. How ridiculous. Maybe she wouldn't have gotten sick if she had let the sick employees recuperate. Sometimes it takes a customer to get the employers to treat the employees civily. In other words, people should be allowed to take the time to recuperate, it will save the company in lost productivity time and sick days. Some people, like your boss can be so short-sighted.

I'm not really angry at sick people per se(my post was partial sarcasm), and I don't get sick much, maybe once a year I will have a headache or cold what-have-you. I do take the neccessary precautions to maintain my health, I wish others would do the same as well. In my opinion, we all benefit.

I appreciate both of your comments and civility.

highthief

Alas, there is no such standard in Ontario, my friend, it purely up to the individual companies to determine if one gets any sick days at all, never mind ten.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Grancey

Red and I got our flu shots yesterday at a local pharmacy.

__________________
Quiet, mild-mannered souls might just turn out to be roaring lions of two-fisted cool.

canuckguy

http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/.../fs_leave.html

?

highthief

We're talking the difference between being able to take X number of unpaid emergency days a year versus taking paid sick time, as you had mentioned the time being paid for. Paid time off for illness is, unfortunately, not part of employment standards in Ontario.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

warrrreagl

Did you get one this year? Why or why not? Do you think flu shots are a life-saver or a placebo conspiracy?

Grancey and I got ours on Wednesday, and we get them every year. Since I teach school, it would be awfully stupid not to get one. The first year I ever taught (1985) was the last year I got the flu and the last year I went without a flu shot.

__________________
Living is easy with eyes closed.

Ch'i

I used to take flu shots when I was younger, but staying healthy is a great substitute for me now. I've haven't had a flu shot in eight years, and have had the flu only once in that time.

Flu shots may be helpful for some, but not for me.

highthief

Flu shots not yet available here for a couple more weeks, but we always get ours.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

jorgelito

Option not available in the poll: Not yet, but planning to.

mixedmedia

Have never had a flu shot and rarely get sick.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
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