I really enjoyed the info in this thread. Thanks for the debate; it's a lot of interesting information and my condolences to anyone who got hurt.


I don't get flu shots anymore. I don't see the need to yank my immune system around every year. I did get the flu when I was younger. It was terrible. I imagined devils dancing around me as I had the feaver in the late night hours.

I looked up this thread now that I have a cold to find any remidies. I took some vitamin C and zinc. I ate some chicken soup tonight too, so I have all my bases covered.

I got mine last week. I did feel kinda crappy for a few days as did most of my coworkers. It's a dead virus, so you're not technically getting "the flu" but most people do run a low-grade fever and get somewhat sick, in my experience. I don't necessarily get it for me... even though I caugh the flu the one year I didn't get the shot and I was miserable for five days. I get it because I work with children with chronic illness and screwed up immune systems. I'll take the couple of days feeling nasty to the guilt over one of those kids getting it because I carried it with me any day. One of my friend's kids caught influenza a two years ago and lost almost half his body weight. He was four... went from almost 30 lbs to a little over 16 lbs. I'd never take the chance that I could do that to an already sick kid.

I found this article interesting. It doesnt encourage me to get the flu shot.

The rest

Nope. If they start giving them out for free on campus, I guess I may get one. Seems unlikely.

I used to get it at work when I worked as a CNA at a nursing home. You don't really want to not get one in a place like that. Those LTC facilities just foster and ferment all kinds of bugs.

Yeah, I'm not gonna waste my time or money.

CDC: Flu Vaccine Ineffective This Year, but Still Worth Having

I spent the last week in Wisconsin and they are in the middle of a nasty flu outbreak that we in Michigan have ingeniously coined "The Wisconsin Flu." It's NOT one of the strains the shot protects against and even the people that got the shot still got hit HARD. A friend of mine was laid up for over a week and almost had to be hospitalized, and she'd received the flu shot. My mother also received a flu shot and ended up getting the flu anyway.

Also, live vaccines (most of the flu shots) are known to often cause some symptoms of the disease they are meant to prevent. It's part of the body's natural immune response to having a live virus enter your bloodstream. My brother got the flu immediately after receiving his flu shot last year. He refused it this year and is perfectly healthy.

Meh, I'll save my money.

In my (educated) opinion, flu shots are for the most part no more effective than a placebo.

You see, the problem is two-fold. First, the makers of the seasonal flu shots have to attempt to predict the strain(s) of the flu that are going to erupt as the season's problematic variants. This is at very best a crap-shoot. Think of this as a really bad version of meteorology.

The second inherent problem is that strains of the flu are very plastic - that is, their 'makeup' is highly subject to change/modification. Viruses and bacteria are (generally) adept at 'communicating' their genetic blueprints and swap identities readily. This is problematic when you design a flu shot since you are sort-of posting 'wanted' photos of pathogens that you anticipate being problematic. The flu has the impressive ability to change its identity very readily whilst maintaining its virulence.

So, considering the two aforementioned points, I see no current advantage to deliberately exposing myself to the flu shot.

I had never got one before until this year. Coincidentally, every winter that I can remember as an adult yielded a sinus infection of epic proportions every 3 months, sometimes lasting two weeks at a time. These sinus infections were bad enough that I'd rather have the flu. When I got my flu shot about 8 months ago, I haven't got a sinus infection since. Hell, I haven't got sick period this winter and that is downright amazing for me. I'd hate to think I was getting a miniflu every 3 months before I got the shot but it sure looks that way.

Probably just a crazy coincidence but I'll be getting one from now on.

I didn't and don't. But I like the "fuck-you for asking" option on the poll, nice touch.

My last US doctor told me he had no faith in them and thought the only people the shot really benefited were the people selling them. He then said he be happy to sell me one. He didn't seem to think they were harmful, just not more more then placebos. Given his advice I opted to save my insurance co. the cash.

I have the flu right now. It sucks.

And no...I didn't get a shot this year.

I don't get flu shots. I believe my immune system will manage itself and if I need help then I'll get it. I also hate shots.

Actually, flu shots use DEAD vaccines. I believe that some alterntative forms of delivering vaccine (i.e., the nasal spray) may use live vaccine.

I would not classify it is a crap shoot - the vaccine makers have largely been successful in predicting the dominant strains each year. This is year they got it wrong and the effectiveness is less than normal. In previous years, they have tended to forecast correctly.

Oddly enough, as to your second point, the comingling of viruses is the very reason that poultry workers in Asia were given standard flu shots a couple of years ago. The fear is that H5N1 (Avian flu) would borrow coding from human flu virus and become transmittable by humans to humans. By keeping the poultry workers free of human flu, they were attempting to stopp Avian flu from encountering human flu and it (H5N1) learning how to move from person to person.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/10/11/news/health.php

That's my educated opinion.

Well, highthief, there's where it doesn't add up. The pharma companies that manufacture the vaccines make a vaccine for the national supply. However flu variants are dissimilar across the US each year. A flu vaccine may contain virus parts for up to three flu variants, but it's still a guessing game. Even if they guess correctly for part of the country, it's unlikely that they guess right everywhere.

My experience is that, whenever I get a flu shot, I get symptoms bad enough to actually BE the flu, and it is therefore pointless. Here on this deployment we were given a nasal "spray"... actually a viscous liquid we injected into our sinuses. Man, that shit was horrible. I still felt horrible for days after that.

YMMV

I cannot speak to the US situation beyond the statistics that offices like the CDC give out concerning the efficacy of the flu vaccine, which consistently suggest success rates of in and around 70% (except in "freak" years like this one, where success of the vaccine is notably lower).

No. The flu shot has -never- been accurate in terms of covering 'prevailing' strains of the flu.
Not to mention, it is mostly impossible to forecast the spread of the flu due to the amount of travel our populations undergo each year. The last point alone makes 'predicting' what will be the prevailing non-hybridized flu strain will be more or less impossible.

As to your second point regarding H5N1, you should know that the Chinese government is not exactly known for its handling of this situation. By allegedly providing the flu shot to poultry workers, they would NOT have prevented the virus from transforming via transduction. In fact, you could argue that if the workers are provided with (arguably) the more effective live-non competent version of a flu shot, they become a large viral reservoir in which H5N1 could in theory bridge the species boundary. Trust me - it is only a matter of time, as all epidemiologists will tell you.

Viruses change their surface proteins too quickly - that simple. And for this very reason alone I refuse the flu shot.

A good, healthy diet with adequate rest is more than sufficient for the flu season.

Nope. I have so much nicotine in my system nothing can live there. Besides, the only time I ever get the flu is when I get the shot.

You and i both, man.

Ive only been sick 4 maybe 5 times in my life, and i've never been at the receiving end of a syringe packing a vaccine.

Then again, i dont get headaches or hangovers either. i guess my immune system is just one teeny, virus ass kickin' machine.

I'm uncertain if there are NO live intravenous vaccines, but the intranasal vaccine I received was indeed live, as recorded on the label by the manufacturer and affixed to my medical record. :)

Have to say it's ultra cool so see an old post of mine revived. :)

And yes, I got a flu shot this year, and I haven't gotten the flu, even though 80% of my co-workers did. And apparantly used my computer while I was on vacation before going home sick.

I caught a cold, though. Ugg.

Well, as to your first point, you'll have to provide some stats. The CDC, the Canadian health agency, all point to - in general most years - good protection and good forecasting. You'll really need to refute that with similar stats.

As to your second point about China - I believe it was Thailand that innoculated, not China.

I'v never had a flu shot, and never had the flu. It seems my lifestyle just doesn't tend to put me in contact with people who get the flu. Going to get a flu shot would put me around people (doctors and sick people) who do tend to get the flu, and who might transmit it to me.

I love this game. Why is it that people "call you out" on stats when they themselves provide no supporting evidence.

If you like, go and scan the primary literature on epidemiology and/or the CDC for cold hard data on the effectiveness of the flu shot. You won't find any. Why is that? Well, its like the Schroedinger's cat experiment really .. all you can do is compare how effective the flu shot is at protecting the inoculated individual against that very same strain. And by the way, most people who get the flu shot suffer (maybe to a very slightly lesser degree) the exact symptoms they are trying to avoid.

Here are a few publications to consider:

Wilde, J. et al. 1999. Effectiveness of Influenza Vaccine in Health Care Professionals. JAMA. Vol. 281 No. 10

---(shows roughly 80% effectiveness against -same- strain exposure .. and NOT "general" flu exposure)

Gross, P. et al. 1995. The Efficacy of Influenza Vaccine in Elderly Persons. Annals of Internal Medicine. Vol. 123 No. 7

---meta analysis of many flu-vaccine studies indicates only slightly better than 50% efficacy in elderly

.. I would quote from journals that require you to have a subscription (ie. Nature, New England J. Medicine) but that would defeat the purpose and make me look like a snob. So my "evidence" ends here.

PS: where are your "stats" to support your claims?

Oh sorry, maybe I should have remained as ambiguous as you to prevent such petty scrutiny. And for what its worth "I believe" is not a very strong stance from which to nit-pick from. And 'innoculated' only as one n - ie. inoculated .. since we are going down that path now ...

Since we're in flu season again, here's a new article that I found interesting.
Doctor Recommends Avoiding Flu Shot, Taking Vitamin D Instead : Eco Child’s Play

Assuming the statistics are correct (and they are cited), it does seem a better option to take reasonable amounts of Vitamins such as D to help stave off the flu. Of course it's always wise to take multivitamins and eat a healthy, balanced, nutritious diet. That, along with exercise and making sure to wash your hands before eating, seems to be the best prescription for a flu-free season.

I've never had a flu shot in my entire life, and I've only had the flu itself on one occasion. I was 11 or so. My immune system seems to be highly effective, as I haven't experienced any form of illness in well over a year. Washing my hands, avoiding sick people, and refraining from touching my face while out undoubtedly contribute.

Shit, I didn't notice this pissant response last year.

You made statements of "fact" - I call you on an error and ask you to back others, and you lose your marbles.

I gave you sources - if you can't type "CDC" into a search engine, well, we really have nothing to discuss.

TFP is usually such a civil place ...

If I don't get a shot and I die from the flu, I deserved to die. Obviously my diet and lifestyle were not very healthy anyway. Fuck the vaccine. Why does the government push it down our throats so much?

I got my first flu shot ever this year. The company I work for was doing them for free and I thought that it was worth it. I would either not get sick with the flu and feel wonderful all winter, or I would get sick and get about a week off of work. I was cool with both of them.

I have a REALLY good immune system. When I was little I (fortunately?) got sick ALL of the time. Was always rushed to the hospital. Missed a lot of school. Now, if I get sick, it's a bad kind of sick. But, it's not often. Unfortunately, this also means that I can't take antibiotics. They gave them out like candy when I was little so my body is immune to them.

Bounce for a new year!

Do any flu-shot believers have any opinions to give me regarding FluMist (the live nasal spray)? My son hates injections, so I'm considering this for him this year.

This is all you need to know. It's been proven effective and safe unless you're in certain groups at risk for adverse reactions.
CDC - Seasonal Influenza (Flu) - Q & A: The Nasal-Spray Flu Vaccine (Live Attenuated Influenza Vaccine [LAIV])

Pretty much the same list as people who shouldn't get the inactivated injection. Thanks, MSD.

Never had a flu shot before, but I think I'll opt for it this year.

And this isn't a poll option so I won't be voting. :o.

A few notes on Flu Mist. If your son is exposed to any immunocompromised individuals he should not get Flu Mist as it is a weakened yet live virus. Many clinics do not offer Flu Mist as there are a number of concerns regarding the room that is used for dispensing it (negative pressure yada yada), not to mention staff concerns.

My best recommendation for children and vaccines is to give the child an ice pack before the procedure. Have the child apply the ice pack on the way to the clinic/drugstore/wherever he/she is receiving the vaccine. It #1 gives the child something in the situation that he/she can control. #2 It numbs the area resulting in a near painless injection.

Prevention is helpful, nutrition, rest and hygiene. Unfortunately all of those preventative techniques go out the window when a 2-year-old-virus-breathing-kid coughs on you. You can avoid touching this and that and use proper hand-hygiene but it isn't going to do a lick of good if someone coughs in your proximity.

As far as concerns about chemicals in the vaccines themselves, most clinics use only preservative-free vaccines anyways. Just ask at your clinic/vaccination site prior to your injection if this is your concern. The injectable flu vaccine is an inactivated virus, you cannot get the flu from an inactivated virus. If you happened to get ill after getting the vaccine I am willing to wager it has more to do with the breeding ground for infection that is known as the waiting area. Be sensible and wash your hands after going to the doctors office, even better do it once you get into the exam room. Yes, it is somewhat a gamble what strains are going to be the major strains of the year. The $25 shot is a lot cheaper than a week off of work which is currently recommended (if not required at most offices now due to the H1N1) for febrile flu-like illnesses.

I tend to get what I've been vaccinated for and I know that there are a whole slew of experts that will tell you that the chances of that are so minuscule that it's well-neigh impossible, but I'm that minuscule percentage. I know they don't actually use smallpox to make the smallpox vaccine, but what ever pox they do use, I got. Same with Yellow Fever - neither one of those were very much fun. So...I've never had the flu and I don't particularly want it so I'm opting out of the vaccine.

Blessings!
Duskwynd

Those are both live vaccines. Is it possible that they may have been contraindicated for you based on your health status at the time? Dosage intervals, steroid use, compromised immunity because of concurrent illness or recent illness, immunosuppression, eczema, chemotherapy, recent blood transfusions, gamma globulin injections all contraindicate these types of vaccines just to name a few. I don't know your story but I know the military has made a lot of mistakes in vaccine timing that can/has caused more harm than benefit.

I had never been one for flu shots until last year. My company provides them for free, and since I was taking my wife in for one AND I share a small office with two other people, I decided it was in my best interest. As far as I'm concerned, I'll keep getting them as long as the company provides them.

I work in a hospital and it's expected that all employees get a flu shot. Several clinic days are set up to accommodate everyone's schedule, although I got mine from my family doctor. It's the first one I ever had and it was a total miss on the strains that showed up this year. I didn't get sick, but then I haven't had the flu often in the past either.

I would just like to point out that this link hardly constitutes proof of safety and effectiveness. It would be more useful if the CDC referenced the "large study" more specifically than by simply referring to it as a "large study."

According to the website, the adults in the "large study" who got sick weren't tested for influenza. Why not? Why would a study whose purpose is to evaluate the effectiveness of a flu vaccine not go to the lengths required to determine if its participants actually got the flu? Perhaps there is a perfectly good reason for this, but without any more information, the conclusion that The Nasal-Spray Flu Vaccine is effective at reducing the flu rate in adults should be treated as suspect. Especially in light of the millions of dollars at stake. It isn't completely out of the question that this "large study" was paid for by the company responsible for The Nasal-Spray Flu Vaccine, which would give them veto power over how the data was interpreted, and even possibly what data the researchers got to see.

It sounds like a conspiracy theory, but from my understanding it's actually pretty commonplace (see Lipitor, Celebrex, Vioxx, statins, etc.)

Based on my (very quick and cursory) research, it appears that the way to test for influenza is a blood test to find antigens. But, if you have had a flu shot, you will also have antigens; that's what it does. In other words, 100% of people who have had the flu shot should "test positive" for flu antigens.

This along with:

Sounds like a recipe for spreading flu rather than preventing it.

That kind of makes sense, but it seems odd that they would be able to test children for flu illness in one study, but not adults in another study.

It would be useful to be able to read that actual studies; it's bad science writing to refer to the results of a study without also giving a citation for the study. The actual data might be much more informative than the summary given in the link.

I got mine a couple of weeks ago, as I do every year.