Gilda

I didn't want to hijack the other thread for a more general discussion of going to the dentist, so I thought I'd start a new thread for that purpose.

My first visit to the dentist was when I was 25. My family had what was probably a lower middle class income, but with nine kids, that amounts to an upper lower class lifestyle. Health care was an "as needed" thing. You went to the doctor when sick or injured to the point that mom could not handle it. In other words, if you didn't need to go to the emergency room, it wasn't seirous enough to see a doctor. A visit to the dentist would have been exclusively for the purpose of dealing with an unbearable toothache or physical trauma to the teeth. Braces for crooked teeth were a pipe dream, and deemed a luxury. They were, where I grew up, a status symbol like a luxury car, an indicator that your family made enough money to afford frivilous luxuries.

My adult teeth came in slightly misaligned on the top, and badly on the bottom. My upper middle incisors stick out just slightly. My lower right cuspid is pushed well inside the line, the first bicuspid slightly outward, and the middle incisors jut slightly forward. We had a dentist visit once at the elementary school and do a screening and he sent my parents a recommendation that I get braces, which was treated like a joke. Braces are for vain rich people, at least that was my parents' attitude.

It would have been nice to have straight teeth, but it's really a minor problem. Bottom teeth tend not to show much when I smile, so it's mainly a minor annoyance when brushing and tends to leave me with stuff stuck in between the two badly misaligned ones on the bottom and their neighbors. I'm tempted to agree with my parents here. Given our income, braces would have been an unnecessary luxury that would have offered a pretty poor cost-benefit ratio, expensive for some minor cosmetic benefit.

I went to college on scholarships, so I again didn't have much money extra and no insurance. Going to the dentist was something I likely would have done only for a severe toothache or a toothache that didn't go away in a few days. Mostly it was the money. Going to the dentist meant spending money on something that wasn't hurting me at the time, money I needed for things like tuition, books, and transportation.

Once I graduated and got a job, I had dental insurance for the first time. The dental insurance was set up in such a way as to actively discourage going to the dentist. First, on the day you signed the papers to sign up, you had to pick one specific dentist or dental office, or if you left it blank, they'd assign one from the network based on geographic location and availability. Being new, I left it blank. I had no way of knowing who was and wasn't any good, any pick I'd have made would have been just as random as what they did. I was assigned a storefront dental office named Plaque Attack. I was officially their patient for close to four years and never went.

Why would I not go? If I had insurance and a full time job, wouldn't that indicate that now was the time? Well, no not with the way it was set up. The dental insurance the school district had was tiered by years in the system. Twice a year checkups and cleanings were covered, but everything else was covered at 70% the first year, 80% the second, 90% the third, and 100% the last. You had to be in the system four years to get things like fillings and crowns and everything else fully covered. There was also a provision for braces, which cost $1000, collected as a $100 payroll deduction over ten months.

I could have gone, but I thought I'd wait until the four years had passed, thereby bypassing the three years that you had big out of pocket expenses, and I was only 21 and had never had a toothache, so I saw no urgent need. I could save some money for a downpayment on a house instead while waiting for everything to be taken care of for free.

It wasn't until I was 25 that I first went. Grace was amazed that I'd never been to the dentist. In her world of upper class professional families, everyone went to the dentist. She'd been going twice a year since she was four. As a child she actually enjoyed going to the dentist. It was like looking at an entirely foreign way of thinking for both of us.

So at her urging, I went, and Sissy, who'd just come to live with me. She was strangely eager because she'd never been. It was like an adventure. I was nervous because I really dislike pain. Well, pain that isn't associated with certain other pleasurable activities anyway. The dental plan had changed by then and I'd been assigned to a new office in a different storefront, something called Family Dental Care. It was the change that had actually made Grace aware that I didn't go to the dentist, when my newly assigned provider sent me a postcard reminding me to make an appointment.

When I called, the receptionist asked if I was transferring over from another doctor, and I told her yes and gave her the info from the old office. She told me it would probably take about an hour for the checkup and cleaning, and set me up. I went in, filled out the forms, gave the receptionist my card, waited about 20 minutes, and the dental hygenist took me back. She looked at my teeth and asked when the last time I'd had them cleaned was. I told her this was my first time. She asked if I was a transfer and I said yes and we chatted for a bit as she set up, asking me the standard doctor chat questions about my job and where I was from and making a joke about my accent. She again asked when the last time I'd had them cleaned was, and I told her this was my first time. She said she understood that, but she needed to know when the last time I'd seen the dentist for a checkup was, and I told her, again, that this was my first time. I was beginning to doubt that I'd really want someone who was so dense that she didn't understand "this is my first time" to clean my teeth. "You have quite a bit of build up. Have been getting your cleanings regularly?" I was thinking, "Yes, of course, I go in every three months, which is why I just told you three times that this is my first time." It took another couple of exchanges with her rewording the same question in slightly different ways as if I were a small, developmentally disabled child who didn't understand her question before she finally understood that this was my first time.

A very unpleasant hour and change later, after a lecture on coming in regularly, she tells me this is all they can do right now, and the dentist comes in. I'm told that I'm going to need to come in for two more appointments for cleanings and two more on top of that to get cavities filled, and proceeds to chew me out for not going in for regular cleanings and checkups, and a lecture on the evils of various diseases I'm subjecting myself to by not getting my teeth cleaned. He also spent a good amount of time poking around at my teeth with metal instruments while lecturing me on all the reasons why my not going to the dentist earlier was foolish.

I ended up going in once a week for four weeks to get the cleaning done completely and cavities filled, and being lectured each time about coming in regularly and why I "needed" to go for an orthodontic consult.

As unpleasant as I'd expected it to be, it turned out to be worse. The worst part was that there was still a 30% copay but they waived that and took the 70% paid by the insurance as payment in full. The progressive coverage only applied if you went in for cleanings and checkups twice a year, but this is of course hidden in the fine print and is supposed to be explained by your dentist the first time you visit. The receptionist was very vocal with her dislike for the way this information is given to patients, prompting many to do exactly what I did and postpone going for a year or two.

I've been once a year since for cleaning, and have been getting the same hard sell regarding going to the orthodontist every time. I wonder what he gets out of sending his patients there? A referral fee or something like that, perhaps? It's something I don't need, and I'm not going to spend whatever the copay was by then on a cosmetic procedure.

I'd rather go to physical therapy for my hand or the gynecologist than the dentist. I think the eye doctor is the one I mind least, but that's probably because it's an "as needed" type of thing rather than something you need to do on a regular schedule. I've had my current glasses for four years now, and I'm seeing just fine, so no need for now or the near future.

In the thread that prompted this, Ustwo said this in response to my post:

I'm aware of what a phobia is. This isn't one.

I can understand why so many people do avoid the dentist and are afraid, but I'm not scared, I just find it really unpleasant, so I don't go any more often than necessary. I really don't have much affection for doctors or hospitals in general, but that seems natural to me. It's like most people's interactions with the police--it almost always happens under unpleasant circumstances, so you'll tend to have unpleasant associations with it.

And yes, I'm aware that there's a bit of irony there given that my wife is a nurse and my sister in med school. I don't blame medical personnel, my dislike is simply a factor of going to the hospital/doctor being something you do almost exclusively when you're sick or injured, so it's almost always unpleasant, and it's normal to want to avoid unpleasant things when they're unnecessary. A good year medically is one in which my one trip to the gynecologist and one to the dentist constitute all my time spent in a doctor's office. It's been a bit since I've had a good year by that standard.

I have dental coverage here, but have managed to avoid going. I declined orthodontic coverage when I signed up to save a little. I really don't want to have to go through all of that new patient gauntlet and criticism again. I brush my teeth every morning, every evening, after lunch, and floss every evening and usually after meals due to getting food particles stuck in my bottom teeth. I've never had a toothache, at most having a little sensitivity to overly hot, cold, and sweet foods.

What have your dental experiences been like?
Did you go as a child?
How often do you go?
Do you have any interesting stories regarding good/bad experiences with the dentist?

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Cynthetiq

I like going to the dentist and orthodontist.

Free toys, free toothbrushes, girls bending over so you can downblouse them... what more could a growing boy want?

I go every 6 months for regular cleanings. After seeing people getting bridge work, major oral surgery, I don't think that my regular deals are any thing more than just discomfort and uncomfortableness.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

surferlove007

I don't care for the dentist.
They let me sit for 30 minutes after numbing up some teeth and then started drilling and did not realize the novacain was starting to wear off. I jolted so hard I almost knocked the drill out of the doctor's hand.
Whoops. He was like "Oh, I guess the novecain wore off, sorry!" Then let me sit another twenty minutes and continued the torture.
I apsolutely despise the dentist.
I did have braces as a kid, from 5th grade until 8th. I enjoyed mine, minus the three days of not eating after I first got them.
Rubber bands were fun, flicking the extras at people in class and such.
My parents didn't have the luxury of braces, their parents couldn't afford them, so they wanted to make sure my sister and I could have straight teeth. Talk about a sweet sacrifice.

Sultana

Being from a poor family, going to the dentist was a priviledge (and I looked at it as such, when I started agoing, around 13 or so). I had obviously crooked upper front teeth, but good genes prevented me from getting cavities until I got braces for myself at age 24.

I love my dentist and my dental office. I go as often as my ins. pays for it, every 6 months for cleanings and x-rays.

I think dentists can be zealous about oral health and hygenie, and I'm certain they are often subjected to folks who don't take care of themselves, which eventually leads to major and painful dental work, for which they blame...the dentist.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Gilda

Huh. I guess I see going to the dentist, and most medical care, as more of a necessary evil, like excercise, or physical therapy. It's unlpeasant, but you do it anyway because the potential benefits outweigh the unpleasant nature of the experience itself.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Toaster126

I've been going to the dentist about every 6 months since I was old enough for it to do any good. I do not see it as an unpleasant experience, because I like getting my checkup and it doesn't hurt.

It doesn't surprise me that you don't like going, Gilda. Between the upbringing regarding it as frivilous, and everyone in the office ragging on you for not having regular checkups which made you uncomfortable, it makes sense you wouldn't like going.

Dentists are pretty naggy, if that's a word. Lots of people take their teeth for granted and don't see the results of that until it's too late. I would have been more firm with them when they started repeating the "bad on you for not getting checkups", but I know that isn't in your personality.

Honestly, a lot of the good vs. bad experiences seem to be with different offices\dentists. Like all professions, some are good, and some aren't.

__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

Gilda

Yeah, you'd think they'd want to be friendly, make apprehensive new customers feel relaxed so that they could keep their customers coming back.

I suppose it's possible that I just got one of the rude ones. Maybe I'll have better luck with whomever I end up with here.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Cynthetiq

I love our dentist... she's really nice. she stops if she sees you wince at anything and asks if you are uncomfortable or in pain.

uses a local numbing swab before injections at the injection point, and makes sure the injections are well timed for whatever procedure.

she also does her own cleanings if asked.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

newtx

I went to the dentist as a child. As soon as I was on my own I found a new dentist. My requirements are: as little pain as possible, a reasonable fee, and decent quality work. The one thing all dentists that I have used is they never turn you loose. Always another appointment scheduled after your current visit and they never approve of any other dental work other than their own. It seems like they are never really happy with your mouth unless they have done all dental work and you have an appointment scheduled in the near future.

jth

not the biggest fan of the dentist either. I went every 6 months growing up until I was around 23 or so when I left my folks home for good and since then never had insurance. However, I do now but don't really have any desire to go and see a Dentist.... correction I saw one 2 months ago... I figure I'm good until I go back to Canada in December and maybe hook it up again. But, I brush and floss every day so I'm not to worried about it.

I ca understand your distain for going to the Dentist. I sympathise

__________________
"A real leader faces the music, even if he doesn't like the tune." - unknown quote

*Nikki*

I would rather go to the gynocologist everyday of the week then go to the dentist once.

Ustwo

First, its illegal to give any kickback for a referal to another doctor. So unless your dentist and the orthodontist are breaking the law, your dentist just thinks you NEED orthodontic work. I refer to oral surgeons all the time, I get nothing for it, and the patient gets needed work done.

Orthodontics is not only a cosmetic procedure, even from your limited discrption of your problem, cosmetics is not why they want you to go. I see adults every day who thought their teeth were fine too, and they didn't need braces, only to discover that their bite was off to the point that it caused teeth to wear down unevenly and they had a lot of damage requiring dentail work to fix it after they get braces. It can also cause TMJ problems in women. I won't get technical without knowing your case because there are a lot of different ways this can happen, to many to list really.

You will have to forgive them for giving you the 'hard sell'. Its called having your best interests at heart.

You will also have to forgive them for not recognizing that when you said 'this is your first time' it was your first time EVER at a dentist. Thats not typical for just about anyone.

Did you mention you never saw the other doctor? Transfering implies you were an active patient, not just a name on the list of people in your insurance plan. Its not often one runs into college professors who have never been to a dentist.

They swallowed 30% of their fee to treat you, you might want to be a little less resentful.

One of the reasons I did orthodontics was so I wouldn't have to deal with much of this. Adults come to me mostly because they care about their teeth and want to be there. They don't want braces, no one does who is over the age of 14, (lots of kids do want them), but they are glad to be there since I am fixing a problem for them.

My one faulting of many dentists is that they don't explain whats going on enough. They expect you to take their word for it and are poor educators. I love explaining that sort of thing, which makes my consultations rather long and annoys my receptionist

Its 230 AM enjoy any typos, I'm too tired to proofread.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

snowy

I love my dentist. I haven't been in a while because I don't have dental insurance, and it would cost too much to go. But up until I became insuranceless, I went on a regular basis, and have gone since I was about 4 years old.

As a child I had several things wrong with me that required major dental procedures. I was in a bad bumper car accident when I was 5 years old and had to see a pediatric dentist from then on. I thought he was awesome--he had Pac-Man in his waiting room so you could play while you were waiting for your appointment, and he knew about all the little kiddie stuff popular at the time. When he would put you on the nitrous for treatment, he would ask if you could see the Care Bears dancing in the clouds. Despite the length of time I had to spend in his chair, I moved on to another dentist without any problems.

I wish I had the money to go, but instead I try to take proper care of my teeth at home. I know it's not enough. I know, from all the work I had done as a child, that there is only so much I can do by myself. The fact is, taking care of your teeth and gums well impacts your overall general health. I think most people ignore that fact.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

_God_

I suspect that you were in a program that pays the dentist (a pittance) whether you go to the office or not. Dentists who work with such plans love people like you. In fact, the arrangement doesn't pencil if patients actually show up.


Some people in the dental field complete an entire career without ever seeing someone over the age of 12 or so who hasn't been to a dentist. If that explains her incredulity.

Just so you know, that's called insurance fraud. Ethical dentists won't do it. The repercussions would not be large for you, but they can get very expensive for the dentist. He or she is financially foolish to take a risk that substantial.

With crooked teeth that catch food, and because you smoke, unless you change something, you will have gum disease by age 40. Your dentist is trying to prevent that.


Just pass that information along to the dentist, so he knows how to position the chair!
(Very old joke.)

As long as you don't mind the possibility of glaucoma or some kind of retinopathy or other eye disease going undetected.

I have never experienced pain in a dental office. Been going without fail since I was eight. I sure prefer the dental office over a colonoscopy, but I've had one friend die from colon cancer, and two almost die, so I deal with the unpleasantness.

Your dental decisions are your own, but you won't be happy with the long-term consequences.

My job now has close ties to the medical profession, if you were wondering. The only interesting story I have would probably be more suited to "Dear Penthouse."

Gilda

Thank you for the information. I didn't know how the referral system worked internally, just that it's frustrating from the consumer end.

That's already a more detailed explanation than what my dentist gave me. Why would teeth wearing unevenly be a bad thing?

How can I really know that? They have a product to sell, just like any other business, that product being dental care. It makes sense that they might be trying to do what's best for me, but it also makes sense that they might be trying to do what's best for their bottom line.

In either case, their customer service was quite bad, at least in how they treated me.

I would think that medical professionals are going to occasionally get patients who've never been to the doctor before, or at least to that type of specialist.

Given that I didn't qualify my statement in anyway, I would think the meaning was unambiguous. When I answer "When was the last time you had your teeth cleaned?" with "This is the first time," it seems to me that it should be clear that I mean "This is the first time I've had my teeth cleaned," given the question that prompted my answer. After three repetitions it seems to me that it would be obvious that I actually meant exactly what I was saying.

They didn't ask, so no.

That seems a strange assumption. Some people come from poor framilies in which dental care is a luxury. I'd been in college for four years at a very expensive school which would make it even less likely I'd have access to dental care.

I was thankful for that, and told them so. My complaint wasn't with the financial end of it (except as regards the crappy insurance plan) or the quality of the work. I actually don't know if the work was any good, so I have no place to complain there. I assume it must be, because I haven't gotten any toothaches, but I never did before, so really how can you tell?

My complaint was with the customer service, the way they talked down to me as if I were stupid not to have been going to the dentist all my life rather than poor.

Also, just to be clear, though it was always unpleasant, I never said anything to them. I mean, of course it's unpleasant, that's just the nature of going to the doctor. I treated them politely, listened to their complaints about my not coming in more often or going to the orthodontist, nodded understood, put up with it for the hour or two I had to be there, (and for a second appointment if I had a new cavity or two) and went on with my business once I got away from there and stayed away as long as possible. I was far from a problem patient, always polite and cooperative. With it already unpleasant, I didn't want to get a reputation as a problem customer and have the quality of care go down.

Maybe it was just the general attitude I got, as if I weren't really supposed to be involved in the decision making, and was supposed to just go along with whatever they told me I needed, instead of working together with me as an equal partner in deciding what was best for me. It was about them wanting me to come in every six months and them wanting me to go to the orthodontist, as if what I wanted had little to do with anything.

I can understand this. Sissy was delighted to get braces at 16, and has always enjoyed the dentist. But those two don't necessarily go together. I go to the dentist because I care about my teeth, just as I brush three to four times a day and floss at least once before bed because I care about my teeth, but that doesn't mean I want to be there.





--------------------------------------------------------------------





Yeah, the way medical insurance works sucks. My school district paid close to $6000 a year in medical, dental, and vision insurance. I went to the gynecologist once a year for a checkup, and once for a yeast infection. That's some really poor value.

Ok. I'll accept that this is true, but it seems strange to me. What about people from poor families who can't afford dental work or other most other medical care until they're adults? Surely I can't be the only one who moved from a poor family into a middle class professional career where health care is readily available for the first time as an adult.

Out of curiosity, why? The insurance company isn't being affected in any way by their giving me a discount. I assumed it was like a sale at a department store, giving new customers a discount to get them to come back.

I don't smoke, and never have.

I don't know what retinopathy is. Like Ustwo's TMJ reference, this is the first time I've seen a reference to it.

Our experinces have been quite different, then. I've had pain at the dentist, quite a bit that first five visits. I hate, hate, hate having that needle stuck in my gums

I take care of them at home, and as much as I dislike it, I do go once a year. I treat it like excercise.

The difference between you and my dentist was that he didn't see it as "Your decisions are yours," but as a "You need to do this and do it on my schedule because I know what's best for you."

Is it really a one size fits all form of health care? Aren't there going to be people who need a checkup every six months, others every year, some more often than six months? My sister goes to the gyno every three months because she has different needs from mine, while I go once a year and whenever I have a yeast infection or UTI, and most of time I can take care of the yeast infection at home with over the counter meds.

What if I'm one of those for whom once a year is enough? How do we know what schedule is best for everyone if we don't allow for individual differences?

Gilda

Edit: I hate this automerge "feature".

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

_God_

In spite of what many people think, there are MANY free medical and dental clinics for indigents. I've worked at two. The only adult I ever saw who had never been to the dentist was a recent illegal immigrant from Mexico. So you're somewhat unique!

Let's say the provider tells the insurance company a procedure costs $100. He then discounts it to $70 for you. Had he told the insurance he would accept a fee of $70, they would pay him $49. Since he misrepresented the fee, they pay $70. IOW, they lose money, and it's worse if he bills it out at $140, to get the $100 he really wanted. Insurance companies know all about this.

Secondly, it's well established that if a procedure is free, many people will agree to it. If it costs, sometimes they decline. You're an example. That's why so many insurance companies require a copayment--it greatly reduces the number of people who make claims, and saves the company a great deal of money.

I'm no fan of insurance companies, but I have to agree with them that overbilling is fraud. So do the courts.

My bad! I misinterpreted your first comment in the smoking thread, and I think I got you confused with someone else. Noob mistake.

What I said still goes, though. Anyone who smokes *much* is almost guaranteed to develop gum disease by age 40 or so.

I am not in the eye field, but I can tell you that some disorders can cause blindness if not caught early. Glaucoma is the big one, but I've known two people who developed problems with their retinas. A regular eye examination is just a good idea.


You have a little self-fulfilling prophecy going on there. With 25 years of tartar and inflammation, you were guaranteed to have a less-than-wonderful experience. If you go every six months, not only should you not need to be stuck with needles, but it's unlikely to hurt.

Actually, it sounded to me like he DOES know what's best for you. That doesn't mean you have to do it, but everything you've reported sounds very likely to be what you need. He discounted your trip, and he didn't tell you that you needed multiple crowns. That's where the money is generated in family dental offices. However, it sounds like he and his staff are lacking in people skills. FWIW, if you have great insurance and expensive needs, most times their attitudes improve.


You might be, but if your cleanings hurt, unless Nurse Ratchet is doing the work, you're not getting them cleaned often enough. If your teeth or gums are in good shape, cleanings usually don't hurt.

There is a reason most insurances pay for two cleanings a year--that's what the average person needs.

I hope this helped.

You and me both.

Gilda

I'm amazed. I'd never been until I was 25. My sister not until she was 16, and then because she was living with me and I made sure she had everything she needed that my parents could never give her. My brother . . . I don't know if he's ever been. He's a poor scholarship student at an expensive school so I doubt he's going now. I doubt the other five have ever been either.

We weren't indigent, by the way; we could afford all the necessities and did not require external assistance. We were just poor enough that we couldn't afford luxuries like dental care or doctor visits while well.

Ok. My optometrist didn't say anything about any of this, or not that I can remember. It was four years ago, though, so maybe my memory is faulty.

The first 21 years weren't really by choice, and I suspect that the difference between 21 years of tartar and 25 would have been negligible. It was, in retrospect, foolish to try to save money by waiting those four years to get up to 100% because it turns out the insurance didn't work that way, but I didn't know that, so I had a good financial reason, or so I thought, for postponing things.

Huh. My experience has been that getting stuck with a needle always hurts. That was really secondary anyway.

To be clear, it wasn't the work that kept me from going back on their schedule, it was primarily the rude way they treated me. It's hard to explain; it was as if I wasn't supposed to be part of the decision making process or as if my teeth were theirs because they were cleaning them every year instead of mine to decide what to do with. Lousy customer service isn't a good way to get customers to come in more often. It seems perverse to me that they thought that criticizing me was a good way to get me to come to them more often. Why go back to a place where the people make me feel bad about myself every time I go there?

I guess it's a combination of the physical discomfort, anxiety regarding whether I'm going to need fillings again, and the way they talked to me.

If my sister hadn't loved it there, I'd have switched us the following year. She had a different dentist, so maybe that was part of the difference.

That's been my sister's experience, too. Maybe I just have sensitive teeth.

It did, thank you. It sounds as if I just got a bad dentist, at least in terms of attitude. Maybe whoever I get here will be better. I hope so. Maybe I'll call my brother and see if he needs some money to see the dentist. It would be something nice I could do for him.

Off topic: I just got the latest issue of Walking Dead. It has a somewhat relevant dental reference in it. One man involved in a gladiator style exhibition battle knocks another's teeth out. The other man quite reasonably gets very upset--there are no dentists or dental offices, so there is no way to do any kind of repairs. He's toothless for the rest of his life, so he kills the guy who knocked his teeth out. It's a metaphor for all of the things in civilization that we take for granted, things we don't think about when we don't need them, but need desperately when we do, something Kirkman does really well.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Ustwo

200: If a man knock out the teeth of his equal, his teeth shall be knocked out.

201: If he knock out the teeth of a [commoner], he shall pay one-third of a [silver] mina.

An eye was worth 1 mina so teeth were pretty highly valued.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Gilda

Yep. Heck, I'd hate to have to deal with something like that nowadays, with the level of care we have available. With essentially no means of treatment, it would be exponetially worse.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Ustwo

If you are looking for something to read that covers this idea as well as others you may enjoy, try 'Steel Beach'.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Gilda

I've read it, along with all of Varley's Nine Worlds stories. Steel Beach is probably his strongest novel. The way he extrapolates advances in medical technology is interesting there, in that he has it a quantum leap above current technology, so advance that it becomes cheaper, more accessible, more effective, and requires less expertise. It's a lot like electronics in that way, where real costs go down as quality goes up, unlike current healthcare models, where real costs are scaling with technological advances, or rising faster. It does raise the question of whether that trend will someday reverse itself with advanced enough technology.

We're reading three Varley short stories for the transgender portion of my GLBT lit class. He's a really good source for that, as he plays with gender concepts in a lot of interesting ways.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

shakran

for the same reason that ANYTHING with uneven wear is a bad thing. You end up with parts of whatever's wearing sticking up, therefore getting worn down even faster or possibly breaking off.

and since your jaw is somewhat flexible over time, uneven wear can probably cause jaw alignment issues as well - Ustwo?


As Ustwo pointed out, they waived 30% of their fee so you could get the treatment you needed. That's a pretty darn solid indicator right there that they're looking out for you instead of looking to screw you. Plus, consider this: There's about 300 million people in the United States. Every single one of them requires dental care of some sort. With such a large customer base, they don't really NEED to try and rip you off



I think you need to take a step back and consider how you are reacting here. From your posts elsewhere on here, you tend to be a bit more sensitive to negative events than some. It seems to me anyway that this may be coloring your viewpoint on what exactly the dentist was thinking while he was talking to you.

It's absolutely pathetic that your parents never took you to the dentist. There are ALWAYS options - hell dental schools need patients to practice on and you can get work done there VERY cheaply. The dentist IS a necessity for children. Period. Your parents wouldn't say "Well she's not FREEZING so we don't NEED to clothe her do we?" Your dentist was probably pissed off at that, and further pissed off at your insurance plans, which as you noted seem to be trying to discourage you from actually taking advantage of them.

It's very, very rare for children in well-off countries to have never visited the dentist. It wouldn't surprise me at all if you were the first adult patient the hygenist had ever had who had never been to the dentist.

Yes, it logically seems that way to you. But if the sky turned green tomorrow and you asked on here what color the sky would be when you walked out for the first time that morning, and we told you "green" would you buy it at first?

Since you're in the vast minority with your never-having-gone-to-the-dentist situation, it's quite logical to believe that the hygenist thought you were telling her that it was your first time having your teeth cleaned at *that* office.



To the general public it makes it more likely. Rich kids go to very expensive schools. Rich kids also get regular dental visits.





Well, let's dissect that for a second. Let's put this into your area of expertise. If you get a student who comes up to you after the first class and says "hey by the way Professor G. . . I never learned how to read. Books were a luxury." you're not going to work with him as an equal to come up with what is best for him because he is not an equal. You're gonna tell him to go freakin' learn to read.

Same thing with your dentist. The general dental patient doesn't know much about dental work except that it involves a lot of spitting and sometimes it hurts. Because of your lack of dentist-going experience, you know even less. You and the dentist are not on equal footing - he's the expert here, and from his point of view, there are no options to be discussed as equals. You MUST get your teeth taken care of or bad things will eventually happen.

The fact that you went the first time tells us that you want to keep your teeth. They're addressing that want by telling you how to do it.

highthief

Went to the dentist yesterday for a filling. My usual dentist was busy squeezing out a bambino, so a locum was in place. He was an older guy, retired from his own practice but helps out at various practices to pick up extra cash and to stay sharp.

He was OK but slow as hell, and wanted to explain every tiny little thing. I had to make it clear to him that I don't need a play by play, just pop that filling in there and let me get back to my office!

I've met some idiot dentists and some good ones, like any other profession. My wife is afraid of the dentist and had to be knocked out to have her wisdom teeth out in August. She's OK with the sedation, so for anything other than cleanings she might go that way again. Me? I hardly need novocaine (or whatever they use these days) for many procedures.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

stevie667

A very enthralling story i have to say!

I've been to the dentist every 6 months since i was little, and i got my first filling earlier in the year. Basically i have taken care of my teeth so much better than then, the first thing i said to the dentist after getting it done, and i quote, was 'like FUCK am i getting that done again!'.

Although i probably am now, it looks like the job wasn't up to scratch and it needs fixing damnit. Not that i'm gona be paying if it does, should have done a good job in the first place. Lucky he's a nice bloke or i'd screw.

__________________
Office hours have changed. Please call during office hours for more information.

Gilda

We're a highly selective school. The scenario you describe is a virtual impossibility.

You're wrong on both accounts.

This is true, which is why it would have been a good idea to have given me a lot more information. Instead of telling me what to do, give me the relevant information so that I know exactly why it's in my best interest to do things the way he thinks they think they should be done, and don't criticize me for past decisions that can't be undone.

The fact that they're my teeth in my mouth makes it my decision. Other doctors I've been to have treated me as an equal and talked to me about my needs so that I would understand the what and the why, and didn't criticize me for past decisions that couldn't be undone. They, with one notable exception, were nice to me. He's supposed to be there for my benefit, not the other way around.

-----------------------------------------

I'm not afraid, but that does sound perfect. Go to sleep, wake up with everything done, no pain and no anxiety.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

kramus

I have always had issues with the dentist because when I was younger I never had a pain-free visit. I could brush my teeth 5 times a day, and sure enough the dentist would say "3 cavities, I will have to book some appointments for you" - and I would start to cry. Because it ALWAYS hurt. They eventually sent me to a special dentist who had restraining devices so he would be able to work on me.
Fast forward to the age of 21 when I had a job with full dental coverage and lots of cash. I go to a dentist recommended because he uses nitrous oxide (laughing gas) which I figured was the only way I was going to get through having missed 3 years of dental visits. Guess what? First visit for a filling, drill whining away, he sees me flinch in pain even after the needle for freezing. Standard for me, I learned after the age of 12 or so to just dig my nails into my palms until I bled so I could get it over with quickly. "You have branched nerves". Yes, apparently (unless it was a way to get me to relax and take a new look at my dentists visits) some people have extra nerves that run in unexpected ways, and a needle needs to be placed in every spot to freeze you. Otherwise it is as if you had no freezing done. Wow! Virtually pain free dentistry for the first time in my life! After he redid most of my old worn fillings I stopped using the gas because I was used to his methods and he knew my mouth.
I still have trouble relaxing at the dentist. Apparently I get very flushed, I breathe quickly, and tense up like I am made of steel bands. But I can handle my visits without actually wanting to soil myself, which is a change from what it had been like for the formative years of my life. And I do occassionally have a jolt of pain, or even a serious grind right through me, but he stops right away and nukes me but good with the freezing

__________________
And now to disengage the clutch of the forebrain ...
I'm going with this - if you like artwork visit http://markfineart.ca

UrbanAngel

I've been going to the dentist pretty regularly since I was very young. I never really disliked it, I actually sometimes looked forward to it because I like the squeaky clean feeling I had after a cleaning. I've always had very straight teeth and only a few cavities, so nothing too severe ever had to be done. Even getting out my bottom two wisdom teeth wasn't too bad. I would say overall visiting the dentist was a positive experience.

However, this all recently changed.

About 4 months ago, I had a toothache, and went to the dentist. I had only seen this dentist once before, but he seemed pretty competent. Anyway, he said my upper left wisdom tooth was decayed and needed to come out. I consented, and he got it out in about 10 minutes, but MAN did he yank hard on my jaw. I seriously thought my head was going to split right down the middle like in a cartoon. It felt okay afterwards though, so I didn't think much of it.

However, my ear constantly popped afterwards. Also, a couple of weeks later, I noticed an odd crease running down my face (smile line.) I'm young, so I thought it was weird, but whatever. A few days later, the "full" feeling developed into a constant earache. I thought my face was also beginning to look a bit funny on the left. I went back to the dentist, who said I was fine, no infection. Well, ok. Over the next couple of months, the earache became worse, I began to have a tight "pulling" feeling all over the left hand side of my face, and my jaw and face started to occasionally twitch and spasm. I went to an oral surgeon, who sent me too a neurologist, who examined me for 10 minutes and said I was fine. But the symptoms continued, and my face was beginning to look lopsided to the point that other people were asking me what was up. I had no idea what to tell them. I started to get ringing in my ears and had bouts of dizziness. My ear and face constantly ached. The muscle spasms got worse. I was seriously starting to think I had a brain tumor or something.

I had to have a cavity filled, and this time went to a new dentist that was reccomended to me. I told him about my symptoms, he took some x-rays and tested my range of motion, I could pull my jaw to one side 11 (cm?) and to the other only 4. He said my chin was deviating sharply every time I opened my mouth. I guess the first dentist yanked so hard on my jaw he partially dislocated the disc in my jaw and I also had capsulits, inflammation of the joint, from the trauma. He prescribed me muscle relaxers and NSAIDs and told me to use warm compresses and it would get better, but it hasn't. Also, as a triple-majoring last semester senior taking 19 credits, the muscle relaxers make it hard for me to concentrate. So, basically, before I went to the dentist I was fine, now I am constantly sore and have a crooked face, not to mention I'm broke.

Needless to say, I no longer like visiting the dentist.

_God_

However, his analogy is a good one, in my opinion.

It might put matters in perspective to look at this from another viewpoint. This dentist's office, if it's in an area with high real estate prices, probably costs him $200/hour or so to stay open. He also discounted his fee 30%. He doesn't get paid for spending extra time with you.

A nearly identical scenario would be if a student asked you for help in your class, and giving him help not only involved giving back 30% of your salary for that time, but it cost you $200/hour. How long would you be willing to engage in conversation with this student? Especially if he spent some of the time telling you that since he reads a lot, he should only have to turn in half as many writing assignments as everyone else? I'll bet it wouldn't be as long as the dentist spent talking to you. And don't forget, Another factor that might have been on his mind is that when people are told (usually at an older age than you) that they have gum disease, many are only too happy to blame the dentist they've been seeing. If he documents that you were told the possible problems that might result from insufficient cleanings, or the lack of orthodontic treatment, he won't be much of a target for a lawsuit.

It's perfectly okay to say, "I don't want braces, I don't want to have my teeth cleaned more than once a year, and I'm willing to accept the potential consequences of my decision," but instead, you seem to be stretching for logical-sounding reasons not to follow his recommendations. "But I brush my teeth X times a day" and "But what if I'm one of those people who don't need cleanings that often" don't seem to be convincing him or his hygienist, and they probably have a pretty good idea of who can get away with fewer cleanings, and who can't.

You're absolutely correct that it is your decision. Perhaps you will disagree, perhaps not, but my reading of your posts gives me the feeling that you've got a very large dislike of this dentist. What is not easily discernible is whether this is because he's a jerk, or because he's telling you something you don't want to hear. What IS evident is that any further recommendations he makes are likely to be regarded by you as criticisms, or attempts to line his pockets. That being the case, it would probably be for the best if you changed to another dentist who's more compatible with your mindset. One caveat: You'd better stay away from any HMO-type of office. Those places are all about nickels and dimes, and you aren't about to get any warm fuzzies from them. What you WILL get is a crash course in what high-pressure salesmanship involves.

Having had crooked teeth as a child, I am well aware that they can hugely detract from a person's appearance. My decision was to have them straightened. Some people choose not to--lousy teeth don't seem to bother this guy, and he's the head of a very large oil company:



In general, however, unattractive teeth can hold you back professionally. That's what seems to have happened here,although he doesn't seem to care.



I admit, this is an exaggeration, but if he worked for you, would you put him in a position to interact with clients? People judge you by your teeth (and your breath) more than you would think.


There are other options. "Spa-type" dental offices are appearing. You can get a massage, a pedicure, or whatever at them, along with your cleaning. Bear in mind that you will pay for the privilege.

Refer to the thread about the kid who didn't wake up. More and more "sedation dentists" are springing up, though.

Sultana

About the "there shouldn't be pain during cleanings", that's simply not the experience of most people. If you have even a little bit of gum disease, your gums will certainly be sore afterwards.

Heh, I am reminded of the time I was unfortunate enough to schedule a cleaning while the lady responsible for such things (the title escapes me at the moment) was freshly going through a divorce. She apparantly felt the need to "talk" about it, and had pretty much a captive audience in me. She also didn't take care to keep her anger out of my mouth, so to speak. I was a bloody mess afterwards, and obviously in a great deal of pain. I felt constrained to speak to the dentist about it afterwards. Ugg.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

Gilda

Here's what I would do when encountering a student with a severe reading or composition deficit. I've had some in my previous job. First, I'd ask the student what her ultimate goal was regarding her reading/writing problem. I'd do a quick evaluation of the student's reading/writing ability. If writing was the problem, I'd look over a paper together with the student. If reading, I'd discuss a recent reading with the student, or possibly have the student read aloud for a bit to see for myself how severe the student's problem was.

After a quick evaluation, I'd go over options. Depending on the type and severity of the deficit, these might include coming in during office hours to work with me (I actually love doing this; students who are willing to put in extra hours to learn the material are a joy to work with), visiting the tutoring center, getting a private tutor, or dropping the class and taking a zero level remedial course (no credit, but it gets you up to speed).

I'd go over the advantages and drawbacks for each, and for doing nothing, and make a recommendation as to what I thought was best for the student, then let her decide for herself.

I was prepared to pay the copay, was grateful for the discount, and told them so.

I have no idea what the real estate prices were there, but the houses in the area were all somewhat older tract homes. I'm guessing it wasn't all that expensive. There were three dentists at the office, so I'd also assume costs would be shared among them.

I'm assuming offices in the Cedars Sinai Medical Center office towers in Beverly Hills are somewhat expensive. This is where the doctor who supervised my sister's hormone treatment was located. Before our first visit, he talked to me on the phone for 20 minutes. On our first visit he spent about half an hour talking to us, going over goals, treatment options, advantages and disadvantages expected results, side effects to look out for, and so forth, in addition to the time taken for the physical exam. A week later, he spent 15-20 minuteds talking to us about the results of her bloodwork and answering other quetions.

I don't expect this same level of customer service from every medical provider, but some concern for me as a person and not just as a set of teeth would have made me more comfortable going back there more often.

This is where the analogy breaks down completely. First, I'm on a set salary. I have no authority to waive charges or charge extra for my services while on the clock, and doing the latter would be unethical and likely get me fired if I were to do so and get caught. Second, talking to students in such a situation is a big part of my job. It's what I'm paid to do in the first place, educating students about how to learn as well as the specific content of the course.

This guy talked to me not like a good teacher to a student, but like a gung ho coach to a player.

I would tell the student he's welcome to do this if it's how he wants to do things, but he's going to fail if he does. It's similar to what I tell students who miss a lot of classes. They're welcome to do so, but their grades will suffer as a result.

Time was only part of the problem; tone was the bigger problem.

Another factor that might have been on his mind is that when people are told (usually at an older age than you) that they have gum disease, many are only too happy to blame the dentist they've been seeing. If he documents that you were told the possible problems that might result from insufficient cleanings, or the lack of orthodontic treatment, he won't be much of a target for a lawsuit.

If that's what you've gotten from my posts, I've not been expressing myself well. The first part is what I've been trying to say, here at least. I barely spoke to my dentist. I'm easily intimidated by authority figures, especially aggressive men. The reason I didn't want to go back was emotional. It was unpleasant and painful, and I prefer to avoid unpleasant, painful experiences.

This is true.

I don't currently have a dentist. I would have moved to a different dental office back home after the first year (It was only possible to pick a new dentist at the beginning of each school year), but my sister loved it there. I moved around this time last year and haven't gotten around to finding a new one yet.

Ok. How can I tell the difference?

Well, there's also the option of not exposing teeth when smiling. That's what I do and it's always worked for me. I think I have a grand total of one picture where you can see my teeth, and then it's just the uppers, which are only slightly misaligned, enough that I can feel it, but it doesn't show in the picture.

I keep my breath clean for this reason. Fortunately I'm in a profession where what comes out of your mouth matters about a thousand times as much as what it looks like, so this really isn't a concern for me.

As to that guy? It depends on what the job was.

Money is less of an issue now; I make a lot more and the family has two middle class incomes with three people instead one lower middle class income for two people.

But I'd still rather have the insurance pay for it. I'm paying for it whether I use it or not.

It's a tradeoff, isn't it? If frequent visits are as important as you and my former dentist say, and the pain and discomfort are keeping me away, getting sedated with its small chance of complications would seem to be a small price to pay for getting what I actually need.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

genuinegirly

I like going to see the dentist. I like the feeling of having my teeth very clean at the end of the whole ordeal. I'm lucky and haven't had a cavity so I'm not sure what it's like to be poked by needles and such.

I had braces. I have TMJ. Go figure. Maybe it would be worse today if I didn't go through the orthodontics.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy