Elphaba

I heard from a friend earlier today that because she owns a rottweiler, her home liability insurance premiums are going up. She did a net search and found the link below and sent it to me. I love my Rottie and he's nothing but a cuddle pup, yet I know I am not comfortable around other Rot's or some of the breeds listed in the link.

http://info.insure.com/home/dog.html

I've never met a bad pit, but my husband was attacked by one (hubby cold cocked the bastard); wolf hybrids are freaks of nature and should never be trusted; but are the rest dangerous dogs?

The article is fair in that not all insurance companies blacklist a breed arbitrarily. Many go on a case-by-case base and a history of bad behavior. I have some concern over the hysterics that paint an entire breed as bad.

My Rottie is on "watch" because a woman claimed she was bitten (bruised) by him. A dog control inspector came out and inspected him in many ways that would provoke a bite from a mean dog and my boy just rolled over for a belly scratch. We learned later that this woman was making the same complaint for other dogs in the area that merely barked at her. Obviously, this is a mean spirited woman, but that doesn't solve my fear of breed prejudice.

I don't think any natural breed of dog is inherently good or bad; but individual dogs can become a bad dog by poor breeding and poor owners.

I am interested in the experience of our members here with various breeds of dogs. Is there really a "nature" argument to be made, or is it primarily "nuture" that brings out bad behavior in any breed?

cookmo

I think most dogs temperment depends on how is was raised. There is one exception to that though, and those are Chows, they are notorious biters, and I wouldnt trust one, or even a dog that had a little in it.

Those viscious dog breed lists are a crock, my mother has an Alaskan Malamute who is on Allstates dog list. Granted she is big, but all she does is lay in the sun and lick herself. As soon as she see's someone she rolls over on her back and begs for a bellt rub. She even lets the cats boss her around!

Meditrina

I do not own a dog at all, but to me that seems unfair. There are other breeds (both big and small) that will bite when provoked. I tend to think that nuture, as well as nature, plays a big part in this.

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Elphaba

The one dog that I was most fearful of was a Chow Chow that terrorized me when walking to Junior High. In retrospect, the dog never left his property line but had a truly ferocious bark. Why wouldn't a Chow be on this list of black listed dogs if they are notorious biters?

Your mom's Malamute sounds like my Rottie.

Grancey

Many dogs bark, and many dogs bite. However, when I read articles about people being mauled and/or killed by a dog it is always a rottweiler or a pit bull. I've had two very tragic incidents with these dogs. So, I can understand the affect on this woman's insurance premiums, and I don't have a problem with it at all.

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Glory's Sun

Blah blah blah, pits and rotties are just SOOOOO bad. Bullshit. They are some of the best tempered dogs out there. We've had so many threads on this sort of thing so I'll just stop with this little bit before I really get amped. /tries to control self.

Anyway, given the nature of people's assumed fears about certain breeds (most of which are extremely exaggerated) I can see how insurance companies do this. Some rental places around here won't even let you rent from them if you own a Rot, Pit, German Shepherd or Doberman. Stupid. But I guess it's their right to provide you with a place on their terms so.. if you have a breed that is "dangerous" then you just have to go somewhere else.

maleficent

No it's not stupid - it's smart on their part.. because if that dog does bite someone, the landlord can be sued for damages for allowing the pet to live there.

Small yappy dogs like those obnoxious chihuahas are probably just as likely to bite as a big dog will... I have a former colleague's sweet friendly lab who ate part of a wall durning a thunder storm... all dogs can do damage.

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Glory's Sun

Mal, I should have been more clear. I feel that if they are going to prevent you from owning a few breeds, then they should prevent all breeds. I understand fully the reasons why a company would do this but if all the so-called problems with power breeds are to be solved it starts with the people owning them.. not the breeds.

maleficent

it probably will turn to all breeds, there's been a pending lawsuit on the local news stations, where a landlord is being sued because someone got bit by a tenant's cat, and the precedent has already been set that this lawsuit is legitimate... the landlord allowed the cat to live there...

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lurkette

*sigh*

Obligatory rant:

Some dog breeds have been selected for a particular temperament, such as aggression, low bite threshold, territoriality, etc. That doesn't mean that the individual dog of that breed shares those temperament characteristics. Their breed characteristics make them more likely to attack ONLY IF that basic temperament is coupled with inappropriate training.

Makes me so mad, because the problem is bad owners and not bad dogs. One easy way arouond the issue would be to increase premiums for all dogs UNLESS you can certify that the dog has passed the AKC's Canine Good Citizen course. It requires that you learn the basics of dog behavior, and that your dog is under your control at all times. (At least dominance-wise if not physically.) I have a sweetie of a chow mix, and she's the most submissive dog ever with people, but she's definitely got some chow characteristics that make me doubletriple cautious not because I'm afraid she'll bite, but because if she ever does she's already got prejudice against her for her breed - never mind that we passed not only the CGC but Therapy Dog training, but that doesn't mean she won't lunge after another badly-trained dog that's up in her doggie grill. I get so mad that bad owners make it tough on the rest of us, and ultimately on the poor dogs.

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Bill O'Rights

Heh...Bad Dog was my favorite After Dark screen saver...way back when.

Just sayin'

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Glory's Sun

<i>Mal</i> Well I think everyone here knows I have no problem with lawsuits or anything else against cats


<i>Lurkette</i> I couldn't agree more. I've long been an advocate for the licensing of people who want to own specific breeds. Does this acknowledge those breeds are dangerous? No, it simply states that some breeds, if not handled properly, are more likely to show aggression. I feel that person should have to take a course *before* taking posession of a dog and then must enroll that dog within 2 weeks to the AKC program. No exceptions. It's no different than someone owning a gun. The gun isn't the problem. It's the person using the gun.

Cynthetiq

Our coop does not allow dogs of any breed. However there are a lot of not-a-dogs that live in our buildings. We call them not-a-dogs because they obviously cannot be dogs because when applying for purchasing in our building, you sign and notorize a document that says you do not or will not harbor any pets, specifically dogs. When the home inspector comes to your home and sees evidence of a dog, your application will automatically be rejected.

Some people who have signed this contract, decide the will own a dog anyways. They have even challenged it to courts of law. For me the only part that bothers me is that someone agrees to something and then renigs on it.

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The_Jazz

Just like people, there ARE bad dogs. The Chicago Tribune did a series earlier this week about a boy that was attacked by 3 pit bulls who also attacked several other people, including their owner. There had been no earlier attacks, although one of the dogs had been put on some sort of "watch list" by an obdience school trainer for aggressive behavior. All three were related (one was the mother).

The problem with Pit Bulls is that they were bred for fighting until fairly recently. Back in the bad old days, dogs that attacked humans were killed pretty much immediately since the breeders wanted dogs that would attack each other but not people. That changed a few decades ago when criminals began to use dogs to protect drugs, etc. They WANTED dogs that would attack people and bred and trained accordingly. Unfortunately, some of those dogs bred with others who were then sold off to the unsuspecting. The dogs in the Tribune story had untraceable pedigrees since the owner never really knew the folks that gave him the mother.

As far as the insurance angle goes, it's pretty simple - if you have a dog on the list, don't buy coverage from the company that won't cover the dog. It may cost you more, but that's part of being a dog owner. Insurance companies shouldn't be forced to cover things that they don't want to (so long as they exclude it for everyone) or didn't anticipate. It's the same as the Katrina lawsuit - the policies specificially excluded flood damage, and the house was flooded. It is very simple.

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genuinegirly

Cyn - i didn't realize that you lived in a coop, too!

My buddy's german shepard is territorial and trained to attack anyone that enters his house unannounced. but with friends and family, it is supposedly well-trained and loveable. or so everyone believes... even though it has gone after me three times. Hasn't done anything more severe than freaking me out, getting close and barking when I was close to her food dish, or pull (violently) at my hair while I was laying down on "her" couch. The owner does not see it as an issue. even after she mauled his face while they were "playing".

I am not saying that all german shepards are bad. I'm not even saying that this dog is evil or should be prejudiced against. I am saying that training a dog for attack is something that should be done seriously and not half-heartedly. this particular dog is dangerous, but the owner is in denial. most owners love their pets too much to realize that, yes, they do have the potential to be dangerous.

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Glory's Sun

I don't think there are any bad dogs. Just bad owners. You can take the most aggressive pit, rot or german and put that dog with a knowledgeable and trained person and I can bet in a short amout of time (an hour or so) that dog will be just as calm and more relaxed than anything else out there. Pitbulls have proven themselves time and time again in countless "experiments" to have the best temperament of <b>all</b> breeds. People need more training than the dogs do. It's the owners who fail to train properly or reinforce the training.

genuinegirly, just out of curiousity, how do you act around that German? Are you nervous at all? Power breeds always sense nervousness as a sign of weakness. Granted, if it is bite trained etc, the owners should be more responsible, and tbh, it doesn't sound as though it was fully trained. Dogs that are trained to attack only attack on command; not on whims or during playing with owners. Then again, if it was fully trained, then it sounds like the owners have dropped the ball in reinforcing the training.


edit: oh and another thing. Pit Bull is not one specific breed.. it's about 3 or 4 different breeds iirc.

yup. Wiki confirmed it


Here's something to sort of backup my claims

http://www.atts.org/


ok I guess this is a bit of a threadjack sorry about that. I'm just trying to prove a point

lindalove

Wolf hybrids are whacko. I don't know why people want them as they are very destructive to start the list. Are they dangerous? In the wrong hands they are.

My relatives had one adopt them, and he was awesome. His real owner neglected him so bad that my aunt and uncle took him in. The dog lived like a king. He was fed oatmeal every morning, and chased around the house with an oven mitt just for fun. Wolfe didn't mind and my relatives thought it was a good way to kill time I guess. LOL

He never growled at anybody, but he did have a certain look about him that always left a person wondering just what he was thinking. I've never seen "that look" from any other kind of dog and it was creepy although once he realised who you were, you were greeted with a wagging tail and slobering tongue.

I've been biten or challenged by all kinds of dogs. They ranged from a 1.5 pound Yorkie to a 200 pound female English Mastiff. Today I have yet to find a Corgi (Welsh or Cardigan) that likes me. I don't know what that breed has against me as I've never hurt one, but I'm always greeted with teeth regardless of where the dog is.

Breed comes into play in alot of ways. The dogs on the "Bad Dog" list are usually breeds that were used for fighting at one point, however all dogs can bite.

I knew someone that had 3 Rotti's. All of them were male and none of them were neutered. The owner weighed 100 pounds soaking wet with rocks in his pockets, and his heaviest dog was close to 180.

His dogs were a disaster waiting to happen, but it wasn't the dogs that were the problem, it was the owner. He had no control over his dogs and the dogs knew it.

Another person I knew owned a 150 pound Rotti that would growl at anybody that came near it. When I questioned the owner about her dogs behavior I was told "He's not growling, he's purring like my cat."

Then there was Hildi. Another Rotti I knew. She did the Boxer butt wiggle thing when I saw her. All I would have to do is call her and she'd wiggle with excitement from head to toe. My complaint with that owner wasn't about the her dog, instead it was her cat who was beyond mean.

Hildi's owner did the right thing when Hildi was a puppy. She brought the dog everywhere for social training and didn't put up with any of her nonsense.

The media likes to hype out stories about people being bit by breeds like Rotti's, German Shepards, Mastiffs, ect... but small dogs bite people just as often as large breeds but the media doesn't bother to talk about it as they would look stupid talking about how a Yorkie grabbed a persons pant leg and scrapped the persons skin.

Then there is the owner factor.

People are really stupid when it comes to pets. A majority of people spend more time doing their homework researching a new car then they do their pets. This isn't just about dogs, it's with any kind of pet.

People that want a mellow breed will go out and buy a Jack Russell because of shows like Fraiser. Vets tell people that Jacks slow down after 7 years of age, but I beg to differ. I live with 2 that are almost 10 and they have yet to slow down.

Dalmations can be really nasty, but because of movies like 101 Dalmations they sell only for owners to find out the hard way of how the breed can really be. Usually the dog bites the kid in the face that begged his/ her parents for a dog.

Large breed owners that have no clue what they are doing suddenly get all undone when their Great Dane has taken over the bed and refuses to budge when the owners want to go to sleep but can't because their dog has been allowed to rule the house.

I think small dog owners are more of a problem than large breeds as people treat them like babies which leads to "Spoiled Brat Syndrome" as I call it. The little beasts snap at people like a snapping turtle, they don't like to be touched, blah,blah,blah. But because the animal is small, the owners think all of this stuff is cute. There is nothing cute about it! These dogs are out of control and trying to into the owners head about all of their dogs issue is impossible.

Can a person live with a dog from the "Bad Dog List" and never have a problem? Of course. I ran to a couple a few months ago that had three Mastiffs. Two were English, the other was a Bull Mastiff. The dogs were so well behaved I actually complimented the owners...something I rarely do but it was warranted in that situation.

As I always say 95% of dog problems are actually people problems. If people spent as much time getting to know their pets (or intended pet), getting a trainer on board when the dog is young and instill rules into the dog for life, there wouldn't be a "Bad Dog List". That will never happen as people are lazy, they don't want to spend the money, ect.. so eventually dogs will end up on the list and good dog owners will have all the bad owners out there to thank for it.

The_Jazz

To say that "there are no bad dogs, only bad owners" is ignore that each dog has a unique personality (just like people) and that some dogs are just plain old assholes (just like people). Some people are born assholes and some are developed. That goes for pit bulls along with every other breed.

Let's also pause for a moment to remember that behaviors are very purposefully bred into dogs and that not all breeding experiments are successful.

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Glory's Sun

Yes some dogs may be born assholes but it's not hard to curb that behavior. Dogs (especially power breeds) are very easy to train. I stand by my statement that there are no bad dogs. Any dog can be trained.

As far as breeding behaviors.. pits haven't been bred for fighting since the mid-1800's. I think that's more than enough time for that characteristic to have been bred out. Dogs attack for one reason only. The owner never socialized or trained the dog correctly.

stevo

Sorry, but pit bulls are the stupidest breed of dog alive. They can be sweet dogs if they're brought up right, but each and every one I've met is dumb as a bag of rocks. Never met a rott I didn't like, I know a chow and a chow-shepard mix. both great dogs. I had a dalmation, my wife also had one. great dogs. I've been bitten only once, and that was by a psycho jack russell.

But I've seen too many pitts to know they are flipping stupid. Their skulls must be 3 inches thick because there definitely isn't much brain in there.

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The_Jazz

Guccilvr, if you think that dog fighting died out in the mid 1800's, I have sad news for you - it didn't. My grandfather took me to a dog fight in Mississippi when I was about 11 because he thought it was time for me to "be a man". That would have been about 1980 or so. He'd been going since he was about the age I was at the time and thought it would be a good bonding experience - it wasn't. A guy I went to elementary school with was busted for dog fighting about 10 years ago in North Carolina.

I stand by my statement that some dogs are just bad. They're untrainable and not fit to be around other dogs or people. If they were human, they'd probably be classified as mentally ill.

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"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Glory's Sun

The_Jazz: I never said Dog Fighting was phased out.. just that (except for the really stupid people out there) Dog Fighting isn't part of the breeding process anymore

Stevo, I'm sorry man, but if you want to talk about dumb dogs, then Dalmations and Huskies take the cake easily. Pits are probably the smartest next to Dobermans as far as training and ability to learn. I've had enough experience to know this as fact.

stevo

Dalmations I've had experience with have been very trainable and smart dogs. My folks have a huskie, but I don't have enough experience with them to know either way. Dobermans are very smart. But pits a d.u.m.b. dumb. There's a lot of pits in my town. I see them everyday at the dog parks. I know several people with pits, and every last one is freaking stupid for a dog.

Most any dog can be trained, some more easily than others, that goes for pits too. I've seen well-trained pits, but watching them interact with their surroundings you can see the stupid cloud around their head.

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Glory's Sun

Ok for clarification's sake, enlighten me on this stupid cloud floating around their heads in their surroundings.

The_Jazz

http://www.dogsdeservebetter.com/fightingring.html
http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/4768/IL/US
http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/7481/
http://www.rnews.com/print.cfm?id=32879
http://www.news14charlotte.com/conte...41&ArID=104115

All of these are within the last 18 months or so. They're off a Yahoo search page for "fighting dogs seized". I elimated the older ones and tried to include the ones that mentioned younger dogs, and there are a lot more where this came from. I really and truely do wish that you were right, but there are lots of folks who do breed fighting dogs today. Unfortunately, that's just a fact of life, along with the fact that some of these dogs are sold to or adopted by the unsuspecting public. Not even a majority of all pits are bad, but some are. Sorry.

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"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Glory's Sun

Dude. I'm not saying that breeding for fighting doesn't exist, I'm saying that it doesn't exist for the entirety of the breed anymore. In the mid-1800's it was the only reason they were bred. Now it's just stupid people who do it.

Even so, I don't care if a dog has been trained to fight or bred to fight or not, it can still be trained pretty easily.

The_Jazz

We'll just have to agree to disagree, then, especially when fighting dogs are being bred specifically without the usual inhibition to avoid attacking humans. If you can fill in your pit's entire pedigree, I completely agree with you. It's the folks that don't know where the dog came from that have potential problems.

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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Elphaba

Guccilvr, this is far from a threadjack in that it is empirical evidence of a particular breed's temperament. This is the type of evidence that insurance companies should be basing their policy decisions on. I would also recommend it to people looking for a dog and are not familiar with the breed they are thinking of getting. Great find.

Oh...the ever dangerous Rottie is in the 80th percentile of "good dogs."

Opps: here is the page: http://www.atts.org/stats6.html

Glory's Sun

Elphaba, I'm glad I didn't jack your thread

I just find it extremely frustrating that the dogs listed on most of the "dangerous dog" lists are actually the best ones to own and train and are <b>GREAT</b> family dogs. It's really sad that people just treat dogs like a goldfish or some other useless pet. If you're going to own a power breed, no check that, if you're going to own <i>ANY</i> breed of dog, do research, get training and be prepared to back up the training *daily*.

I have 2 wuss dogs now (but I've owned a rottie who was the greatest ever) and I'm torn between getting an Albino German Shepherd or a Rhodesian Ridgeback for my next dog. No matter what, whether it's Lab, Cocker, or whatever, a person has to remain in alpha status or you can have bad results quickly.

damn I need some coffee.

Brewmaniac

Just curious, why would you tell your ins. agent you have a dog?

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The_Jazz

Brewmaniac - if they ask the question, you have to answer honestly or it could negate all of your coverage, not just dog bites. It's called insurance fraud, and "failure to disclose" is one of the few reasons that companies can cancel homeowners insurance.

While I've got my insurance hat on, let me point out that the list of dogs varies from company to company. Each company that makes one adds breeds to their list based on past history. The reason for a dog making or not making the list is the potential for loss and could have nothing to do with the perceived aggressiveness of the breed but everything to do with the average size. Larger dogs cause more damage - it's simple physics. A small aggressive dog won't cause much damage to anyone but the smalled child, but a large enough dog could kill an adult. When you're the one who has to write the check for the policy limits, you owe it to your stockholders to do everything you can to prevent that from happening. If you don't like it, change insurance companies. There are lots of them out there.

__________________
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"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Brewmaniac

I've never been asked if I have a dog. We have a trampoline, never been asked about it either. Different companies must be the difference, I guess.

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StanT

My insurance didn't ask, but the policy was ammended a few years ago to exclude liability from attacks by certain breeds of dogs. Newfoundlands were not included, but if they were I would have gone insurance shopping.

raeanna74

It's not even how the dog was raised sometimes. It's how the current owner is.

We got a dog from the humain society years ago. They believed she'd been abused because she'd shy away if you even slightly raised your hand and she had other problems. She was found as a stray.

When we got her we started training. She was a smart dog (poodle) and learned quickly thankfully. We had her for so many years and trained her so carefully though that we could take her for walks around our part of town (we don't have the strict leash laws) and we could even pass someone with another dog but Daisy would heel perfectly. She barked when people came into the house but the command "no bark" was obeyed fairly well. I do recall her biting someone but that was a 10 yr old boy who was being a bully. He grabbed her by the ears and tried to lift her by the hair only. Even then she only nipped and when he released her she ran away. I'd bite too. She was put in her kennel for a while and I don't remember her biting anyone else.

If the master IS a master and not a servant to the dog the dog will obey their comments much better.

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lindalove

I don't think any animal or person is born an asshole. However, animals don't use money, poverty, greed, drugs, alcohol, their past, sexual orientation, political interests, ect...to act like assholes. A dogs reasons to act like an ass has no connection to why people act likes asses except for possibly the owner holding the other end of the leash.

Most dogs can be turned around with good training. Notice I didn't say all of them because there are dogs out there that cannot be for one reason or another. Something else that most people are not willing to do. How many people are known to make a 360 degree turn in their behavior over the course of a few weeks to a few months? Not many. Dogs don't think like people. This is a good thing!!

How many female dogs have you see lately get into a cat-fight because one dog has a better coat than an other? How many male dogs have you seen farting at the water dish while confiding in each other that it's only acceptable for guys to do such things. If females dogs were do to that, certainly they must be butch. Need I say more?

Since pitbulls have been mentioned on more than one occasion on this thread, what is a pitbull? Better yet, lets get away from the term "pitbull" and call this breed what is really is for a second... A Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

When I think of a terrier regrardless of breed, a number of adjectives come to mind. Hyper, stubborn, scrappy, bullheaded, tempermental and will use a person like a door mat if the human onwer is stupid enough to allow it.

The only terriers that are kind of mellow and dare I say lazy are Airdales. If allowed to do so, they become more like a curly coated rug if given the chance. Besides the Airdale, Pitbulls just happen to be one of the larger breeds of terrier. Another breed of terrier which is considerably smaller but can walk the fine line is the Boston Terrier. They tend to act more like a pug even though they orignally come from Bulldog bloodlines.

Now I'm going to disagree as well, as just because Pitbulls haven't been used for fighting since the 1800's, that doesn't mean that the other character traits of the breed has disappeared as they are still a terrrier. If you put any terrrier is sheeps clothing, it is still a terrier.

Can the scrappy trait be removed by training? No. Since dog owners tend to gravitate to dogs that act like themselves, will a stubborn, bullheaded owner listen to a certified dog trainer that has been in the business for years that specializes in dog aggression issues? Most likely not because they feel that there is nothing wrong with their dog.

All of those "flaws" need to be dealt with once the animal is old enough to walk. There have been disagreements on here on when it's appropiate to bring a puppy to a trainer, but as it has also been said that a dog trainer really doesn't train the dog, instead they train the owner how to deal with their pet. Training does not remove the problem per say, but it does give the owner firm ground to stand on when their pet decides to act up somehow through problem solving.

Dog trainers that do not include the owners should not be in the business that they are in as the owner is left completely clueless. The trainer feeds off of this ignorance and rips the unknowing owner off. So technically a dog trainer is really a person trainer, but they would never make any money if they changed the "dog trainer" title to what it really is. People don't want to be trained and if they are, they don't want to know about it. Dogs don't have hang-ups with honesty or titles.

It takes a firm hand to own a dog with the qualities that I mentioned above. It isn't just terrriers that can be like that. My mother's shiba is as scrappy as they come. One minute she'll love a person, but on the fly she can completely change her attitude and come running at you as if you were going to do some serious bodily harm to her because you simply want her to go outside when she doesn't want to.

People think the term firm hand equals abuse and it doesn't. All it means if that when a dog is misbehaving and they are instructed to do something else, they are expected to follow the command that was given as there are consequences to be had if it isn't. Such consequences include a fast snap of a training collar and a firm "No!" If the animal still refuses to sit as an example, there are non-abusive ways to make an dog sit. Once the dog butt is firmly planted on the ground, praise is given and all is well until next time.

If the owner holds a grudge about the situation, it's the owners problem. Dogs don't think "I'm sorry Dad for being a putz at the vets. I spent too much time playing with the boys in the neighborhood last night so I'm overtired and crotchedy, hence my poor behavior."

It all still boils down to education. If a person wants a dog that is known to be scrappy, they should know what they are getting into first, but ignorance is bliss with far too many pet owners.

Can a pitbull live a peaceful life without ever having an issue with anybody? Yes, but as I've already said, it's up to the owners to make sure they stay on top of that dog just because it's a terrier. The owner doesn't need to play the alpha role like what can be seen in wolves, they just need to have the knowledge and understanding of what a terrier is really about.

If said owners are not willing to do that but still want a dog, they should be looking for a breed that is less of a challange. What people put into their dogs is what they get out of them. If a owner sets high standards, the dog may not always meet them, but will be better behaved than a monster dog that is allowed to terrorize the neighborhood.

Dogs don't live to be mans best friend. Dogs will test and challenge it's owner(s) at some point. An educated owner will know what to do about it, the arrogent owner will say "That's just how the dog is!" A huge difference and it shows as otherwise there wouldn't be such thing as a "Bad Dog List".

Cynthetiq

lindalove,

actually dogs have their own pecking order that follows rules for dogs. Alpha dogs very much will nit pick for whatever reason, just not getting lowered eyes when walking past to toys, food, and the like.

People have things that seem like they aren't the same thing, but they are just the same when you look at them as external objects and behaviors.

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Lady Sage

You cant judge a breed from a couple bad eggs. If that were the case we would all have elevated insurance premiums for living in our own houses!

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bobbyjay53

My ex girlfriend had a fiesty poodle that used to attack visitors. The provacation was people entering the area . Unfortunately for her family, it put their insurance premiums at risk, especially whereby this was in Australia where public liability is a serious issue.

Glory's Sun

wow... ya know, my thoughts haven't changed on this at all

The_Jazz

Same here.

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