Jinn

..may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.

If we assume that one is capable of objectively analyzing another's "goodness" or morality, what importance would you put on what the person said? Rather than saying "everything," "nothing" or somewhere in between, I mean it in a relativistic sense. When judging another person, how much importance would you place on the character or content of their speech?

This question was inspired by a discussion between my SO and I regarding a mutual acquiantance. "E" has a notoriously bad mouth, and it wouldn't shock anyone to hear things like as "Hey, let's go find us some us some bitches!" or other senselessly derogatory comments. I believe that "E" is a still a good (and moral) person regardless of how he speaks, and my girlfriend holds the diametrically opposite position.

From this discussion I discovered that I place almost no weight on the character or manner of another's speech when determining whether I like them or whether they're a good person. As a matter of fact, many of my friends were dismissed as stupid or crude by my other friends simply because of the manner of their speech. When determining "goodness" I establish what I believe to be the probability that they'd lie, cheat, steal, or abandon someone.

My position: I hold those who would lie, cheat, steal, or abandon and yet speak niceties to be far less moral than those who would not lie, cheat, steal, or abandon but will dispense inappropriate language.

Where do YOU place the weight? Why? Does your assumption change if the language is backed with malice? Ignorance?

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Cynthetiq

Plain and simple, I put the weight on respectfulness of fellow human beings.

Using such words and terms in certain situations and jocular manners are sophomoric at best. They have their place and context.

But ultimately my sister is one of those "bitches", my mother, my lady friends, are all encompassed by that term. While one may not be directly disparaging someone but such language, it still is offensive to some for whatever reason. Ultimately, while one may feel that someone should just "get over it," conversely, that same one person needs to "get over the fact that these people aren't getting over it."

Obviously speaking a moral line doesn't mean one tows it, ala the recent Catholic priest incidents.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

maleficent

Years back... when it was fairly commonplace for a job interview to be conducted over lunch, one of the things that the interviewer noticed was how the interviewee acted towards the staff of the restuarant. If a person was hostile or rude towards the wait staff, then chances are they would not get the job.

One of the measures of a person's character is how they treat other people, whether it be by smacking them or by words.

Sticks and stones may break bones, but words do hurt... Words do have power... and for someone to refer to women they don't know, as bitches, is demeaning to them... and totally lacking in respect... we are known by the company we keep...

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Jinn

Am I correct in saying that you believe using improper language demonstrates a LACK of "respectfulness of fellow human beings" ?

If I am correct, how do you feel about the contrapositive of that argument?

A respectfulness of fellow human beings can not be demonstrated by a person who uses disparaging language.

That's actually a neat way of doing interviews. I'm a little sad that they seem to have discontinued this practice, because I agree with you that how we treat others directly exposes are own personality and character. So we're clear, you wouldn't find me personally being hostile or rude towards wait staff.

Certainly. I agree again. The point of this post, however, is to assess TFP's perception of them relative to each other. Which is worse? And would someone being a verbal asshole prevent you (or any of the following posters) from believing that person was a "good person" ?

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Cynthetiq

Define "improper language" as you are using it.

To me improper language encompasses grammatical and structural errors, thus cannot be a matter of disrespect, it would then predispose that all immigrants and tourists are being disrespectful to fellow human beings as they try to communicate in a language that is not their own.

I'm not familiar with contrapositives of arguments.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Jinn

It's a math concept, one which I should probably not have bastardized to explain my point, especially since I didn't actually provide you with the contrapositive. The ACTUAL contrapositive should have been "A respect of human beings can be achieved by using proper language." Does this hold true, to you?

Improper language, as I used it, is language that any other human could find offensive.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

maleficent

language, proper or improper, doesn't necessarily make a person a good person or not... Words are just words technically... it's how those words are used...

It's not neccessarily what is said, it's how it's being said... "Let's go get some bitches" really is no different than saying "Let's go get some women" though bitches is slightly more derogatory.. The meaning behind is the same, that the person making the statement (the way I am interpreting it anyhow) is just out to nail some chicks - and really is not interested in the person... Maybe that's oK if that's what they both want... but - eh - it just sits a little wrong with me

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Jinn

Yet again, I agree.

An addition I made to my original post earlier which you might find thought provoking, if you haven't seen the edit already: "Where do YOU place the weight? Why? Does your assumption change if the language is backed with malice? Ignorance?"

If we momentarily assume that person saying "lets go get some bitches" is saying it out of ignorance -- that is, he either doesn't understand why it should be offensive or doesn't believe it is offensive, would it hold the same weight as someone who understood the above and still used it?

You've made me consider that perhaps I the reason I think E is a good person despite his verbiage is that I believe he uses it out of ignorance or apathy.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Cynthetiq

as stated in that same post, no, improper or proper use of language does not indicate any level of respectfulness towards another human being.

again, DEFINE proper or improper use of language as this is apparently a hinge in your agrument. Your "Improper language, as I used it, is language that any other human could find offensive." thus then leaves little to explore as a directed discussion.

You've created a context of derogatory comments as the boundaries. Now you're lifting that to include any language, well then I still stand by my statement of it's irrational to think "improper language encompasses grammatical and structural errors, thus cannot be a matter of disrespect, it would then predispose that all immigrants and tourists are being disrespectful to fellow human beings as they try to communicate in a language that is not their own."

People found Hemingway to be offensive, not by the content of what he wrote, but just his writing style.

edit: let me make it simple:

"A respect of human beings can be achieved by using RESPECTFUL language."

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

maleficent

If I found the phrase, or concept offensive, I would point it out to the person and ask that they use a different expression... or rather think about what they are saying...

Evil prevails because good men do nothing. I don't remember who that quote is attributed to... and i'm not saying that your friend is evil... but unless it's pointed out to him... if it does indeed bother anyone other than me - how's he going to change.

If it is pointed out and he doesn't see the problem with it... then he's got a different set of values than I do an dI probably wouldn't spend much time with him

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healer

My mother has a saying, part of which is "He who does not know, and does not know that he does not know, is a fool. Avoid him."

Personally, an ignorant person just slinging comments around without the knowledge of what they mean or how others interpret them, is a fool. By no means should ignorance be used as an excuse, however.

But as soon as someone says/does something they know can be considered offensive, it becomes intentional and my opinion of them is immediately lowered.

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analog

I think a person can use all kinds of "bad language" and still be a very good and moral person...

...the defining line is where the language is used without any regard for context and environment.

For example: I have a friend we'll call Cursing Guy, who curses quite a lot. A fucking shitload, in fact. I would consider Cursing Guy a very moral and upstanding person apart from that. His absolute saving grace is that, despite his prolific cursing/other bad language, he knows when is not the right time to use those words and terms, and adjusts his speech accordingly. When in mixed company where certain things would be inappropriate if said aloud for all to hear, he does not say them.

For myself, I can curse and use bad language with the best of them- but never in an inappropriate setting, or in a way that would offend people within earshot. I am extremely mindful of what I'm saying and around whom I'm saying it.

There are some times when you simply can't accomodate or anticipate the moral standings or threshold of a person in your company or within earshot of you. The best any person can do is speak their mind honestly. If you are true in your words, it will be difficult for someone to be truly offended on a real level when you explain your position.

This is not to count, say, if the "offensive" quality is simply a matter of opposing opinions on a matter- I've had people tell me that it was "offensive" of me to say I dislike children and that they were a waste of quality time and money that could be spent with/on an SO. Well it's obviously not "offensive", it was just their expression of disapproval of my opinion.

Nisses

A lack of respectfulness to me is knowing that language tends to offend certain people, and still use it around them.

So if you don't know the company, and decide to speak in a proper manner, and only let loose the flood of vulgarity with people you know are able to put up with it... then no, I don't think so it shows lack of respect.

If you do it with people you don't know, you're an idiot waiting for a faux-pas.

I can personally put up with it. That doesn't mean I hold you in the same esteem if you do it around me constantly.

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Moderation should be moderately moderated.

VirFighter

One important thing when listening to someone's speech is to remember your surroundings and the backgrounds of the various individuals.

Very similar to Analog's story of "cursing guy", my gf grew up in an environment in which "cursing" was not such a big deal. It is not uncommon for her to drop f-bombs when talking to her own mother and her mom slings them right back.

My family is very much the opposite. I used to get my mouth washed out for saying "hell" or "damn" as a child

My mother would find my girlfriend's language incredibly offensive. However, my girlfriend's mother finds it offensive that I refer to her as "m'am" or "Mrs. <insert last name>". She much prefers to be called by her first name.

Calling someone Mrs. or Mr. so and so could hardly be seen as improper languague, but in that situation it definitely is! So I have learned to refer to her by her first name. By the same token, my girlfriend has learned to restrain her diction when in the presence of my mother (as hard as it may be sometimes).

I think the key is to always be aware of your habits and those of your friends/family. A person may use the foulest language known to man in his everday life, but if he knows when to cut it off to not offend others, he is a respectful person.

Language is a matter of respect in the end and I think it does not have much to do with morality. I find morality is tied much closer to action.

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