If you are depressed, you are a failure. - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Jinn · 06-06-2006, 11:40 AM

Quote:

I also agree that depression may be caused by a chemical imbalance.

The reason I take issue with the idea of chemical imbalance as another excuse is that we'll never be able to prove one very important thing:

Does chemical imbalance cause depressive disorders?
Or do depressive disorders cause chemical imbalance?

How do you know, conclusively, that it wasn't the negative thoughts that created the "chemical" difference?

You can divert the flow by using chemicals to subdue it, or you can use pyschotherapy to stop it at its source. I prefer the latter.

Quote:

Why do you care? It's what someone thinks, it's the opinion someone is entitled to. It's something they formulate based on criteria that they alone create and understand. It's something that you are powerless to control yet feel the need to try to.

Much like my opinion that using depression as an excuse makes you a failure? Pot, kettle?

Cynthetiq · 06-06-2006, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

Much like my opinion that using depression as an excuse makes you a failure? Pot, kettle?

Actually no, that's called DISCUSSION, someone's opinoin of you is not really a discussion, more like observational statements.

You are confusing the idea of posting a discussion and people's opinion of you from that discussion.

sapiens · 06-06-2006, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

Does chemical imbalance cause depressive disorders?
Or do depressive disorders cause chemical imbalance?
...
How do you know, conclusively, that it wasn't the negative thoughts that created the "chemical" difference?

Why does it matter? Thoughts are electrochemical (neurons firing, etc.). So, I would expect that negative thoughts could be expressed as a chemical imbalance. I would also expect that a neurochemical imbalance caused by something other than negative thoughts could result in negative thoughts.

abaya · 06-06-2006, 02:54 PM

I'm afraid I don't see the point in talking with you, Jinn, since you seem quite determined not to leave room for other people's perspectives or experiences. All these posts haven't changed your mind, so why am I even bothering? It's not even worth of being called an argument (and it's far from a discussion)... it's a sermon, from you to the masses. Not the best way to go about convincing anyone, unless they're already a member of your congregation. Which most of us aren't.

Anyway, that aside, I will respond to your personal note here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

Something made me feel like an internal failure. What kind of person are you, JinnKai? You're going to let what these assholes have said about you shape you? You're going to let them make you a failure?

This is what it comes down to, right here. You were *made* to feel like a failure. People, things, media shouted at you that you were a failure. The interesting thing is that you listened to them, and you let them win. You let them convince you that you were a failure. And now you're trying to do the same thing here, but we won't let you. Because you were not a failure, not then, and not now. But you won't listen to that, since you seem set on wanting to believe that you were a failure then, and that you are some kind of warrior, now. I think I'd have liked to meet the old JinnKai better than this current one, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

And I said no. I decided that I was the only one who would ever be in control my emotions, and that letting "depression" take me over would be the ultimate failure. I believe in something called the Warrior's Code. If you disagree with this code, then it's again unlikely that you'll agree with me:

At the foundation of proper attitude is the belief that you are guaranteed victory as long as you do not quit. One learns how to overcome temporary discomforts on their path towards victory. They understand that all worthwhile accomplishments come through hard work and perseverance, and a warrior is the epitome of those qualities. After all, if it was easy, everyone would do it, and then it would not have the same value. Indeed the warrior attitude is priceless and cannot be bought. It is only earned through hard work and discipline.

This is the epitome of the Protestant work ethic and meritocratic individualism, both of which are as mythical as anything else in a given culture. It's not a philosophy, it's an ideology that has been instilled in you by your dominant culture since you were born. It's designed to turn you into an Alpha Male who wants to go out and kick the world's ass. I'd say it's done a pretty good job.

One last note: Why are you keeping an ongoing record of how many hours you've spent posting on this thread? What value does that serve in convincing people of your logic? We've all spent *quite* a bit of time on the TFP, starting and responding to countless threads... I don't see the necessity of calculating your "sacrifice" of time on here, personally.

shakran · 06-06-2006, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

Even if it isn't their fault, it is their responsibility.

Sure, once they figure it out. Trouble is, it's not as easy to figure out "I'm clinically depressed due to a brain chemical imbalance" as it is to figure out "I cut my finger."

In the first place, depression involves an emotion. There's no blood, and no physical pain to localize the cause of the problem.

Whatever mood you're in right now, are you constantly asking yourself "What are the chemical reasons that I feel this way?"

Of course you don't - - and depressed people don't either. They feel sad, they figure they'll get over it, just like you do when you feel sad. By the time they may or may not realize they aren't gonna get over it naturally it's often too late - depression leads to lethargy - you tend to not want to move - - many depressed patients just sit on the couch and stare at the wall all day. And yes I'm sure that you would say they should stop staring at the wall and go get help, hence the responsibility - - but I would say with all due respect that if you have not either been depressed, known someone who was depressed, or studied / treated depression, you do not understand how hard it is to get off that couch.

jorgelito · 06-06-2006, 05:43 PM

eDIT - changed mind

aberkok · 06-06-2006, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

What followed (4) was my opinion, based in THAT frame of mind. If you don't think emotions should be controlled, then you won't believe negative emotion is a failure, and you'll certainly disagree with me.

This is a perfect example of why there is such a strong reaction to your thread, Jinnkai. The time you spend on your posts ought to be spent addressing why people might disagree with your line of reasoning, and perhaps listening to what they have to say. In a similar situation, some might even stand corrected!

Instead you've decided to explain why those who disagree aren't following your logic. Anyone who dissents feels like they are being corrected. I understand what you are trying to say, but you need to take a different approach and alter your tone.

I'm grateful that most of my life has been happy. I had great parents and I have a great life. Last year when I went to Hong Kong I believe I was depressed. I would love to have gotten a professional or experienced opinion, but everyone I've described my feelings at the time to said "you were depressed." The thing is, no matter what I tried to tell myself...and believe me...I'm the master of mind games, nothing would change. That's the thing about depression - you can't win against yourself!

I tried to explain to myself that in the midst of a 5 star hotel and for many musicians, a dream gig, I was supposed to appreciate it and I was being an ungrateful moron. I really got angry with myself on a daily basis. Half the time it was for agreeing to do the gig in the first place...the other half was for not appreciating what I had which was basically luxury. That didn't work. The only thing that finally worked was returning home at the end of the contract and erasing the real source of my depression, which was the extreme loneliness I felt being in a foreign country with essentially zero friends (my biggest mistake which I also hit myself over the head with constantly was not making more friends as soon as I got there).

I believe this relates to the thread title and your aims. It's an example of how realizing you're a failure in no way helps one pull out of depression. To be clear, I realized that my depression was a failure to eke happiness out of my situation, which a trained warrior clearly could have.

Applying the label of failure to myself never occurred to me, because it's essentially meaningless. To fail at "life" is to be dead. What exactly was I failing at? I made almost no friends so I was failing socially, but my piano playing almost never suffered so I was excelling at music. Humans are complex and nobody could ever be %100 failure. To use the term "failure" merely to delude oneself into bouncing back from the abyss (which I don't believe works anyway) would be to ignore the truth. I didn't know that warriors did that.

abaya · 06-06-2006, 05:59 PM

First of all, thank you jorgelito for sharing your story. I was sorry to hear that you didn't feel you could share your story on TFP and be heard... it might be useful for the rest of us, especially the mods, if you could say more about that. I started some threads in the past about whether or not Christians feel welcome here, and whether or not gay people feel welcome here, since there is a degree of Christian and gay-bashing at times... and now I would be interested in knowing if depressed people feel welcome here. Your input would be valued. (Did you write about these issues in a TFP journal, btw?)

I'm glad to hear that you are no longer struggling with serious depression, and you are lucky that you were able to get yourself out of it, on your own.

I wanted to say something about this, though...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

"Most importantly, however, I believe it. People who use depression or sadness as excuses for failure are losers AND failures in my book."

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

I agree. Depression happens and there are different levels and stages of depression. But using said depression as an excuse for failure is, well, inexcusable (in my opinion). And that I believe is the critical element of Jinn's theory.

Unless he has changed his argument, I don't think Jinn's theory is that people who *use* depression as an *excuse* for failure are losers. If that were true, I would have to agree with him. I don't respect excuses, though I know they happen because we are all human.

No, Jinn's theory, unless I completely misunderstand him, is that people who ARE depressed ARE failures. It's not about *excuses* for failure; a depressed person IS the failure (see thread title). To him, it is a value-laden thing, putting you right on the polarized map of good and evil, success and failure, black and white. It is a fine line, but an important one to distinguish from what I can tell in your opinion, vs. his.

Feel free to clear this up, however. But that's just what I am getting out of it.

EDIT: Sorry jorgelito, I saw your thread and started responding immediately. By the time I posted, you had erased your post.

jorgelito · 06-06-2006, 06:04 PM

That is an excellent point Abaya - maybe we are misunderstanding his point . I understood it as the "excuse" reason. That could be the source of the problem - perhaps it's not clear or too nuanced.

DEI37 · 06-06-2006, 06:22 PM

You want to know when you're a failure? It's not when you're depressed, that's for damn sure. I've been there. It's not necessarily even caving once in a while. Being a failure is when you just quit caring and trying. When you can't stand up for yourself, what you believe, or things of that nature, you're a failure.

Being depressed equalling failure? That's pathetic.

Cynthetiq · 06-06-2006, 06:40 PM

how could I forget this:
From If Life is A Game, These Are the Rules

Quote:

Rule Seven - Others are only mirrors of you. You love or hate something about another person according to what love or hate about yourself. Be tolerant; accept others as they are, and strive for clarity of self-awareness; strive to truly understand and have an objective perception of your own self, your thoughts and feelings. Negative experiences are opportunities to heal the wounds that you carry. Support others, and by doing so you support yourself. Where you are unable to support others it is a sign that you are not adequately attending to your own needs.

Toaster126 · 06-07-2006, 06:09 AM

For Sultana and Cynthetiq: Many people disagree with, hate, etc. things about other people that aren't part of themselves. To say that all or most people who dislike something about other people do that because they dislike something about themselves is really a huge fucking stretch.

Cynthetiq · 06-07-2006, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toaster126

For Sultana and Cynthetiq: Many people disagree with, hate, etc. things about other people that aren't part of themselves. To say that all or most people who dislike something about other people do that because they dislike something about themselves is really a huge fucking stretch.

Not a huge stretch at all.

Understand the logic of it, the combinations encompass everything.

Love something about self, love same thing in others.

Hate something about self, hate same thing in others.

The first two are pretty easy to see as they are agreements that people make with themselves and others. The second are a bit harder to see, but easy to example.

Love something about self, hate same thing in others.
I love being successful, but other people's success jeopardizes my own.

Hate something about self, love same thing in others.
I hate that I cannot be friendly and outspoken, I wish I could be like John who is much more outgoing than I am.

The easiest example to point out are exsmokers. Most are vehement about others smoking around them saying it's so stupid, why? Because they hate smoking so much and need to berate and degrade the concept or idea because they need that crutch in order to "convince" themselves that their path is good.

raeanna74 · 06-07-2006, 07:47 AM

Not all people who are even clinically depressed are failures.
Not all people who are failures are clinically depressed.
I believe the two do not truely have a connection.

I do believe that almost all failures will come up with some REASON for their failure other than themselves. Depression is a popular excuse for failure because it's not something that other people can measure or deny. There is no concrete proof of depression unless a Dr can diagnose it.

I have a friend who is clinically diagnosed as Bi-Polar. He has socked away a lot of money, has a job that he's held down for 10 years (he's only 32) and is a very responsible person. I could consider him successful. Depression has nothing to do with success or failure.

ratbastid · 06-07-2006, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Love something about self, hate same thing in others.
I love being successful, but other people's success jeopardizes my own.

I'm not convinced that such a state exists. I'd say hating others' success uncovers a fairly conflicted view of my own success. If I "loved being successful", I'd be beyond being threatened about it. If I, say, wanted to be successful, but thought I couldn't be, it'd be natural to hate others' success.

I assert that anything you hate or criticize in another has its roots in your being unable to swallow that quality in yourself. I have yet to hear a convincing counterexample of that.

Cynthetiq · 06-07-2006, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

I'm not convinced that such a state exists. I'd say hating others' success uncovers a fairly conflicted view of my own success. If I "loved being successful", I'd be beyond being threatened about it. If I, say, wanted to be successful, but thought I couldn't be, it'd be natural to hate others' success.

I assert that anything you hate or criticize in another has its roots in your being unable to swallow that quality in yourself. I have yet to hear a convincing counterexample of that.

Much better articulated than my own.

sapiens · 06-07-2006, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

And yes I'm sure that you would say they should stop staring at the wall and go get help, hence the responsibility - - but I would say with all due respect that if you have not either been depressed, known someone who was depressed, or studied / treated depression, you do not understand how hard it is to get off that couch.

I wouldn't say that they should stop staring at the wall and go get help. I never said anything remotely like that. Of course, depression is a difficult mental illness. I'm familiar with it's symptoms. Of course, people who are depressed should be helped. Yes, it takes more than just getting up off the couch to come out of a depressive episode. (Just as it takes more than getting off the couch to fight cancer). None of this removes any personal responsibility.

Also, I am familiar with depression personally, academically, and professionally. (Not that it matters one way or the other. I don't place much stock in arguments from authority).

thingstodo · 06-07-2006, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

Precisely. I was incredibly successful in my college career. I made honor roll several times while suffering from depression.

Failure? I think not.

Plenty of people suffer from depression and lead extremely productive lives. I've seen it many times. My wife and brother-in-law are shrinks and they've dealt with plenty of people. The right meds help with any chemical imbalances. Therapy helps with the rest.

To say someone with depression is a failure is meaningless, much like saying someone with one arm is a failure. It just is. What you do with (or in spite of) the disabilaty is what counts and makes a difference.

I really don't understand the original point of this thread other than to incite wild discussions...

snowy · 06-07-2006, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thingstodo

Plenty of people suffer from depression and lead extremely productive lives. I've seen it many times. My wife and brother-in-law are shrinks and they've dealt with plenty of people. The right meds help with any chemical imbalances. Therapy helps with the rest.

To me, the sensation of the chemical imbalance coming on is kind of...obvious. It's like I go, hmm, something isn't right here. I absolutely notice the shift from normal to abnormal. Of course, in my case, it's VERY predictable--always happens in October, and I have to be on the medication through April. But even if I weren't thinking about the timing--I can sense it. Procrastination becomes all too tempting. My level of accomplishment decreases (though is still great compared to some), and I want to sleep a lot more.

None of these things have anything to do with outside forces I have control over--unless you think I can control the weather.

sapiens · 06-07-2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

To me, the sensation of the chemical imbalance coming on is kind of...obvious. It's like I go, hmm, something isn't right here. I absolutely notice the shift from normal to abnormal. Of course, in my case, it's VERY predictable--always happens in October, and I have to be on the medication through April. But even if I weren't thinking about the timing--I can sense it. Procrastination becomes all too tempting. My level of accomplishment decreases (though is still great compared to some), and I want to sleep a lot more.

None of these things have anything to do with outside forces I have control over--unless you think I can control the weather.

On one level, you don't have control - you can't control the weather. On a different level, you have taken control - you recognize that you have this issue and you take action to handle it.

OzOz · 06-08-2006, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

On one level, you don't have control - you can't control the weather. On a different level, you have taken control - you recognize that you have this issue and you take action to handle it.

I'd suggest that's a better test of success or failure than simply "Are you depressed?". Do you have a problem? Yes? Then what are you doing about it? Nothing at all, ever? That would get a '0' from the judges. Or are you taking action and monitoring progress to revise your actions if this is necessary? That sounds like a much better option to me.

Even though you'll still be depressed for part of this process.

Toaster126 · 06-09-2006, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

I assert that anything you hate or criticize in another has its roots in your being unable to swallow that quality in yourself. I have yet to hear a convincing counterexample of that.

I hate people who use their power and influence to make other people's lives miserable. I have never done that to another person, nor do I have the desire to.

Do I get a cookie?

Cynthetiq · 06-09-2006, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toaster126

I hate people who use their power and influence to make other people's lives miserable. I have never done that to another person, nor do I have the desire to.

Do I get a cookie?

Actually it is not that you've not ever done it nor desire to do so, but the WHY you hate people who use their power and influence. Is it because possibly given the responsibility you'd not "do the right thing" based on someone else's criteria getting criticized and mocked for making decisions? Is it possible that you'd be tempted to use power and influence in a good way, but not seeing that it unintentionally makes someone's life miserable?

My examples above are something I face being on the Board of Directors of our buildings. I make decisions that I think are benefitting the most people and sometimes there are some that do not get benefit but actually harmed, case in point I had to vote to raise the parking lot fees from $75 to $150. Some people are now going to have to sell their cars because they are on fixed incomes. I hated doing it but I had to look out for the many because if we don't have fiduciarary responsibility, everyone loses.

Do I like the fact I had to make that choice? No. But I did choose to be in a position to help make the decision because I could not sit and watch doing nothing. Price of oil, electricty, labor, good, all going up, our operational costs skyrocketing over 100% from last year.

Unfortunately I will be making their lives more miserable in the future when I raise monthly maintenence fees again to balance the budget. I'm adressing it as best as I can, but sometimes there are no other choices but the one right in front of you. It's not a pleasant thought but at least I know that someone with some responsibilty and compassion is on the Board of Directors.

thingstodo · 06-10-2006, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

To me, the sensation of the chemical imbalance coming on is kind of...obvious. It's like I go, hmm, something isn't right here. I absolutely notice the shift from normal to abnormal. Of course, in my case, it's VERY predictable--always happens in October, and I have to be on the medication through April. But even if I weren't thinking about the timing--I can sense it. Procrastination becomes all too tempting. My level of accomplishment decreases (though is still great compared to some), and I want to sleep a lot more.

None of these things have anything to do with outside forces I have control over--unless you think I can control the weather.

Sounds like the winter blues, which is greater for some than others. Or SADD. I delt with that years ago and basically hated winter. Now I love the crispness of winter. Plus, you live in a rainy part of the country (I think), which could add to the winter blues thing.

I used to be a smoker. Quit many times and the late fall was always the time I tended to begin again. Guess I was self- medicating.

Merlocke · 06-12-2006, 12:42 AM

Well, if it means anything at all - all this talk about depression got me out of a funk I was in.

Gotta love the whole "Holy shit, it could be worse" realization.

Besides, depression AND failure are only temporary.

Jinn · 06-12-2006, 07:14 AM

Glad to hear that, Merlocke.

snowy · 06-12-2006, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thingstodo

Sounds like the winter blues, which is greater for some than others. Or SADD. I delt with that years ago and basically hated winter. Now I love the crispness of winter. Plus, you live in a rainy part of the country (I think), which could add to the winter blues thing.

I live in a very rainy, very gray part of the country. Come winter I definitely TRY make sure all my lightbulbs are good to go (I like the GE Reveal lightbulbs; they seem to have a "happier" light), develop and maintain certain care rituals (self-care is one of those first things to go when you're depressed), and see my doctor about returning to medication. Some winters are better than others; some I stick to my program of self-care, and some winters I don't manage it. Somehow I always come out on the other side--usually a little wiser about what I need to do to take care of myself.

passthru · 06-12-2006, 11:26 PM

What a welcoming title. A statement like that couldn't be anything but harmful to somebody who's depressed. Good job, and thanks for starting a conversation that way in a community that is otherwise very friendly and helpful.

thingstodo · 06-13-2006, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

I live in a very rainy, very gray part of the country. Come winter I definitely TRY make sure all my lightbulbs are good to go (I like the GE Reveal lightbulbs; they seem to have a "happier" light), develop and maintain certain care rituals (self-care is one of those first things to go when you're depressed), and see my doctor about returning to medication. Some winters are better than others; some I stick to my program of self-care, and some winters I don't manage it. Somehow I always come out on the other side--usually a little wiser about what I need to do to take care of myself.

I just read something in today's issue of USA TODAY (Life section, page 7D) that the FDA just approved Wellbutrin XL as the first drug to treat seasonal affective disorder.

Might be something to look into!

Good luck...

snowy · 06-13-2006, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thingstodo

I just read something in today's issue of USA TODAY (Life section, page 7D) that the FDA just approved Wellbutrin XL as the first drug to treat seasonal affective disorder.

Might be something to look into!

Good luck...

Already have a good medication I stick with--and it's already in generic form. I'm not about to shell out hundreds of dollars for a brand-name medication like Wellbutrin XL that MIGHT work a little better but MIGHT have side effects I don't like.

$1/pill is better than $5/pill.

thingstodo · 06-13-2006, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

Already have a good medication I stick with--and it's already in generic form. I'm not about to shell out hundreds of dollars for a brand-name medication like Wellbutrin XL that MIGHT work a little better but MIGHT have side effects I don't like.

$1/pill is better than $5/pill.

Easy there tiger...I was only trying to share something I read that I thought might be of interest. I don't sell this stuff...

Toaster126 · 06-13-2006, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Actually it is not that you've not ever done it nor desire to do so, but the WHY you hate people who use their power and influence. Is it because possibly given the responsibility you'd not "do the right thing" based on someone else's criteria getting criticized and mocked for making decisions? Is it possible that you'd be tempted to use power and influence in a good way, but not seeing that it unintentionally makes someone's life miserable?

Ok, I understood your point in the other post, but I have no idea what you are trying to say in this one. If you are saying I hate people who use their power and influence to fuck up other people's lives because I might do that accidentally if I have power\influence, then you are wrong. Otherwise, I have no clue what you are saying.

Cynthetiq · 06-13-2006, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toaster126

Ok, I understood your point in the other post, but I have no idea what you are trying to say in this one. If you are saying I hate people who use their power and influence to fuck up other people's lives because I might do that accidentally if I have power\influence, then you are wrong. Otherwise, I have no clue what you are saying.

my best guesses as to your position of statement of hating power influence.

Either you don't like being responsible for it, don't like the "limelight", criticism, appellations, attention, or some people also don't like the fact that they inadvertently harm people by making decisions.

thespian86 · 06-13-2006, 04:49 PM

Agreeing with Halx I must say that I am, and have been many times, clinically depressed; that is diagnosed after taking the proper steps by trained and certified physicians. And I have also been diagnosed, at an early age, with severe social anxiety. I am not, and I am quite clear, a life long failure or loser. In fact, Clinical Depression effects many people who's bodies simply cannot produce the bodies normal needed and required amount of seratonin. Chemicals are fickle but depression is a very serious and a very real thing. As real as being struck by a car or breaking your leg. And it's not so much that you are offending me, you just seem to be ignorant.

This is MY Opinion of course and should be taken with a grain of salt. But it seems that you are refering to sad people. Sad people and depressed people are not the SAME people. You see being depressed does not mean total and unwavering sadness... it is exactly how it sounds... as if you are a ball that has had all the air let out. It is less about sadness then it is about a numbness.

Being numb, being confused, living life without as much joy, physically and mentally, sexual confusion... all side effects of depression. And although crying and whining accompany it sometimes there are very few depressed men and women I have seen who are very emotional, if "emotional" is something that still exists to them at all. I find that there is exactly an opposite response to life, when depressed, then that of what you speak. It is NOT, and I repeat, NOT emotional. It is far from it. Depression's biggest weapon is just that... it steals that joy from you. Sadness, fear, happiness, horniness, excitement... and leaves you with a numb buzz.

But unlike yourself I am going to say that this is NOT a standard but are my own experiences, as well as many experiences I have stumbled upon in my life, including my extremely successful girlfriend, her father, my father, seven of my university professors, more then one director I've worked with (one, who suffered severely from depression and anxiety that I worked with countless times), three highschool principals/vice principals and their children who, their parents confessed, suffered from my probelm, as well as many countless adults, young men and women, peers and authority figures I have come across.

I am, I repeat, NOT offended by your post; just sad that you have standardized a large community of very strong, sucessful, and bold leaders and behind the scene play makers I have met in my life, as well as putting me in a group that I do not deserve to be boxed into. Although, you are free to disagree sir; although I believe doing so would be altogether ignorant.

Also, to give an answer to your own answer to mals question. "Can anyone really defend depression as a good thing?" (and excuse my own paraphrasing) I can answer that simple. This so called WEAKNESS or FAILURE that you have attributed to me and hundreds of thousands of others that I'm sure exist, and that is not a hyperbole, has, very VERY much so, created a stronger and more versitial man out of me. It has taught me countless lessons and put me many hard and almost unescapable struggles and situations. This is not me being a crybaby, it is simply the truth. And although I have been put in these situations (including taking my grad year off with pending scholarships to two of atlantic canada's best music programs) I have gotten out. That sir, is not failure, that sir is very much success.

I would very much like you to respond to this post because I want to see how you feel about what I have to say. I say this not to be rude but I feel your response will be feble and filled with holes that just attribute to your own ignorance and hostility. Please feel free to prove me very wrong.

Thank you. PMF21

Quote:

Originally Posted by raeanna74

Not all people who are even clinically depressed are failures.
Not all people who are failures are clinically depressed.
I believe the two do not truely have a connection.

I do believe that almost all failures will come up with some REASON for their failure other than themselves. Depression is a popular excuse for failure because it's not something that other people can measure or deny. There is no concrete proof of depression unless a Dr can diagnose it.

I have a friend who is clinically diagnosed as Bi-Polar. He has socked away a lot of money, has a job that he's held down for 10 years (he's only 32) and is a very responsible person. I could consider him successful. Depression has nothing to do with success or failure.

Depression is considered nurosis while bi-polar disorder is considered pyscosis. They are unrelated but I see your point completely. And agree. I think the lack of public awareness that accompanies mental health, or lack thereof is disgusting. I was very pleased to see that you are an understanding friend and have taken his experience to enlighten others. Thanks for your post

Jinn · 06-14-2006, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Agreeing with Halx I must say that I am, and have been many times, clinically depressed; that is diagnosed after taking the proper steps by trained and certified physicians.

How does this agree with Hal, at all? He said that my argument was flawed becuase we need a dispersion of mentalities, and I fail to see how your unique failure creates any sort of "agreement" beyond providing an example. I agree with him myself, the argument is flawed because it sets a standard. That doesn't mean I can't assign the "dispersed mentalities" labels that I feel fit.

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And I have also been diagnosed, at an early age, with severe social anxiety.

Hey, me too. I got over it.

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I am not, and I am quite clear, a life long failure or loser.

Never said you were. If one continues to be depressed, they'll continue to fail.. but that doesn't make them a "life long failure" nor did I imply such.

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But it seems that you are refering to sad people. Sad people and depressed people are not the SAME people.

Depressed people are just sad people who decided to stay sad for longer then necessary.

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Although, you are free to disagree sir; although I believe doing so would be altogether ignorant.

If I disagree with you, I'm ignorant. And you're not setting a standard? You're open minded and willing to see other opinions? Not with rhetoric like that, you aren't. I'm fine with you telling me that I set standards, but don't you dare claim that you aren't.

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That sir, is not failure, that sir is very much success.

And how did you succeed? Oh.. that's right. You stopped being depressed. So if you "got out" and you're now succeeding, what were you doing when you were depressed?

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I say this not to be rude but I feel your response will be feble and filled with holes that just attribute to your own ignorance and hostility. Please feel free to prove me very wrong.

That was fun.

Depression:

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# a mental state characterized by a pessimistic sense of inadequacy and a despondent lack of activity
# a long-term economic state characterized by unemployment and low prices and low levels of trade and investment

# natural depression: a sunken or depressed geological formation

# sad feelings of gloom and inadequacy

# a period during the 1930s when there was a worldwide economic depression and mass unemployment

# low: an air mass of lower pressure; often brings precipitation; "a low moved in over night bringing sleet and snow"

# depressive disorder: a state of depression and anhedonia so severe as to require clinical intervention
A mental state of depressed mood characterized by feelings of sadness, despair and discouragement. Depression ranges from normal feelings of the blues through dysthymia to major depression. It in many ways resembles the grief and mourning that follow bereavement, there are often feelings of low self esteem, guilt and self reproach, withdrawal from interpersonal contact and physical symptoms such as eating and sleep disturbances.

# a depressive disorder characterized by extreme feelings of sadness, lack of self-worth, and dejection.

# Not just temporary or situational sadness, but a persistent and pervasive feeling of sadness or hopelessness that is often associated with weight loss (or gain), sleep disturbances, constipation, disturbances of sexual function, and feelings of guilt or self-blame.

# a lifestyle whose structure prevents growth of the personality.

Your post sounds precisely like the "whiny" depressed people that I'm talking about. Aren't they wonderful because you escaped the evil grips of such a strong mental affliction? Not really. A little self-control (or some drugs, I never discounted chemical depressions, see 8 if you even bothered to read my first post) could have prevented it in the first place.

If you want to use depression as an excuse or let it justify why you did poorly at something, then by all means go ahead. Just don't believe that I'm going to accept something with definitions above is something attributed with "success." I don't normally think of "gloom, inadequacy, sadness, lack of self-worth, dejection, sleep disturbances, constipation, mood disoders, disturbances of sexual function" as being "successful." You define it how ya wanna.

powerclown · 06-14-2006, 09:46 AM

Winston Churchill: Failure?

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"Churchill often suffered from fits of depression, which could last for weeks. But these bouts did not slow him down. He acted as if he was driven and denied himself rest or relaxation. It was like he was afraid to slow down or stop. Part of this drive was to satisfy his tremendous ego.

When circumstances forced him from his positions of power and activity, Churchill fell under the black cloud of depression. This happened to him when he left the Admiralty in 1915, when he was out of office during the 1930's, when he was defeated in the election of 1945, and then again after his final resignation. He nicknamed his depression his "Black Dog."

Abraham Lincoln: Failure?

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Without question Lincoln was subject to periods of melancholy throughout his life. His own term for it was "the hypo" (short for hypochondriasis). Lincoln was probably a believer in the doctrine of fatalism. Additionally, he was somewhat superstitious. However, his ability to cope with whatever depression afflicted him, especially late in life, was enormous. Using various means....work, humor, fatalistic resignation, or even religious feelings....he generally did not allow the depression or melancholy to interfere with his work as President. He overcame this depressive aspect of his personality with a powerful inner strength and will.

Although most of Abraham Lincoln's written references to depression were in a series of 1841-1842 letters to Joshua Speed, Lincoln's most profound quote on his own personal depression comes from another source. On January 1, 1841, Lincoln broke up with Mary Todd (the woman he would marry in November of 1842). Afterwards, in January of 1841, he entered a period of depression. He was absent from the Illinois state legislature from January 13th to 19th due to illness which was almost certainly due to some sort of melancholy (which most likely was due to his ending his relationship with Mary).

On January 23, 1841, Lincoln wrote a letter to John T. Stuart, his first law partner. In the letter, Lincoln stated:

I am now the most miserable man living. If what I feel were equally distributed to the whole human family, there would not be one cheerful face on the earth. Whether I shall ever be better I can not tell; I awfully forebode I shall not. To remain as I am is impossible; I must die or be better, it appears to me.

People who knew Lincoln noticed his gloominess. William Herndon, Lincoln's third law partner, described Lincoln as follows: "He was not a pretty man by any means, nor was he an ugly one; he was a homely man, careless of his looks, plain-looking and plain-acting. He had no pomp, display, or dignity, so-called. He appeared simple in his carriage and bearing. He was a sad-looking man; his melancholy dripped from him as he walked. His apparent gloom impressed his friends, and created sympathy for him - one means of his great success. He was gloomy, abstracted, and joyous - rather humorous - by turns; but I do not think he knew what real joy was for many years....The perpetual look of sadness was his most prominent feature."

Francis B. Carpenter, an artist who lived in the White House for part of 1864, said of Lincoln, "I have said repeatedly to friends that Mr. Lincoln had the saddest face I ever attempted to paint." Joshua Speed said of his first meeting Lincoln, "As I looked up at him I thought then, and think now, that I never saw a sadder face." Fellow lawyer, Henry C. Whitney, who traveled the legal circuit in Illinois with Lincoln, thought that "no element of Mr. Lincoln's character was so marked, obvious, and ingrained as his mysterious and profound melancholy." Even as a boy growing up in Indiana, friend James Grigsby said Lincoln would "get fits of blues, then he wouldn't study for two or three days at a time."

Robert L. Wilson served in the Illinois legislature with Lincoln. Regarding Lincoln's gloominess, Wilson wrote:

In a conversation with him about that time (1836), he told me that although he appeared to enjoy life rapturously, still he was the victim of terrible melancholy. He sought company, and indulged in fun and hilarity without restraint, or stint as to time. Still when by himself, he told me that he was so overcome with mental depression, that he never dare carry a knife in his pocket. As long as I was intimately acquainted with him, previous to the commencement of the practice of the law, he never carried a pocket knife, still he was not a misanthropic. He was kind and tender in his treatment to others.

Those around him noticed that Lincoln could go from a happy state to a gloomy one very quickly. Fellow attorney Jonathan Birch said of Lincoln in court, "His eyes would sparkle with fun, and when he had reached the point in his narrative which invariably evoked the laughter of the crowd, nobody's enjoyment was greater than his. An hour later he might be seen in the same place or in some law office near by, but, alas, how different! His chair, no longer in the center of the room, would be leaning back against the wall; his feet drawn up and resting on the front rounds so that his knees and chair were about on a level; his hat tipped slightly forward as if to shield his face; his eyes no longer sparkling with fun or merriment, but sad and downcast and his hands clasped around his knees. There, drawn up within himself as it were, he would sit, the very picture of dejection and gloom. Thus absorbed have I seen him sit for hours at a time defying the interruption of even his closest friends. No one ever thought of breaking the spell by speech; for by his moody silence and abstraction he had thrown about him a barrier so dense and impenetrable no one dared to break through. It was a strange picture and one I have never forgotten."

What were the roots of Lincoln's depression? A definitive answer is impossible. It could have been heredity. Whitney said, "His melancholy was stamped on him while in the period of gestation. It was part of his nature." Some of Lincoln's cousins may have suffered from depression, and there are indications his parents suffered from bouts with the blues. Others feel a lonely and depressive youth contributed to his later melancholy. Growing up on the frontier young Lincoln was unique in his interests in politics, reading, etc., and his intellectual power partially isolated him from his peers. Additionally, he suffered through the deaths of his younger brother, mother, and older sister. A few have speculated that his depression was rooted in his lowly upbringing and feelings of insecurity when he was around people from a richer social order. Herndon felt Lincoln's depression may have dated to Thomas Lincoln's cold treatment of his son. Father and son were indeed estranged. Abraham did not visit Thomas when he was informed his father was dying nor did he attend Thomas' funeral in 1851. Thomas Lincoln died never having met Mary Todd Lincoln, seen his grandchildren, or even visited Springfield where his son's family lived.

Not only did Abraham Lincoln suffer from serious bouts of depression, but he also tried to give advice to others he knew were suffering. Lincoln's depressions, whether they lasted for hours, days, weeks, or months always came to an end. Knowing this, he was able to encourage others. It would seem his own experience led him to believe that depression was not a permanent condition.

Ludwig van Beethoven, musician:

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Ludwig van Beethoven wrote "...my misfortune pains me doubly, in as much as it leads to my being misjudged. For me there can be no relaxation in human society; no refined conversations, no mutual confidences. I must live quite alone and may creep into society only as often as sheer necessity demands; I must live like an outcast. If I appear in company I am overcome by a burning anxiety, a fear that I am running the risk of letting people notice my condition...such experiences almost made me despair, and I was on the point of putting an end to my life - the only thing that held me back was my art. For indeed it seemed to me impossible to leave this world before I had produced all the works that I felt the urge to compose, and thus I have dragged on this miserable existence..."

- from Emily Anderson, The Letters of Beethoven, Vol. 3

Boris Yeltsin, former President, Russian Federation:

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Yeltsin's drinking and periodic disappearances would not, of themselves, be basically significant, if they did not relate to his intermittent depressions. He is quite open about these. In The Struggle for Russia, Yeltsin states candidly that he suffers from "debilitating bouts of depression." He adds that he has had to endure "grave second thoughts" after major policy decisions, as well as frequent bouts of "insomnia and headaches in the middle of the night." Yeltsin also admits that he experienced "tears of despair," when confronting "the sadness at the appearance Moscow and other Russian cities."

Yeltsin's successive depressions have a very realistic root in the compounded setbacks and frustrations that have marked the career of this impatient man. As he puts it, he has suffered deeply from "the harassment campaign at the [Russian] Congress sessions, the entire burden of the decisions made, the hurt from people close to me who did not support me at the last minute, who didn't hold up, who deceived me."

Considering the alternating setbacks, comebacks, denunciations, public acclaim and derision Yeltsin has experienced, it is not surprising that he should be subject to what we may term VIP Depression-a condition that has been observed among several heads of state, but which remains difficult to define or confront.

Billy Joel, singer

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Career: Singer, songwriter and pianist Billy Joel is one of the few pop artists to have Top Ten hits in the '70s, '80s, and '90s. He has won six Grammys and is a member of both the Songwriter's Hall of Fame and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Although now semi-retired, he continues to write and perform.

Depression: In a book by Hank Bordowitz entitled "Billy Joel: The Life and Times of an Angry Young Man" it was revealed that Joel has battled for years with depression and alcoholism and tried to commit suicide by drinking furniture polish. He is quoted as saying, "I drank furniture polish. It looked tastier than bleach." Prior to the attempt, he left a suicide note, which later became the lyrics to "Tomorrow Is Today".

Brian Wilson, lead singer/songwriter (Beach Boys)

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Following a breakdown Wilson descended into mental illness and drug abuse in the late Sixties and 1970s. He partially recovered to try a career as a solo artist in the 1980s, with limited success. His efforts were both encouraged and hampered by the influence of his psychologist, Dr. Eugene Landy. Partially due to Landy's extreme control over Brian's life, Wilson quit working with the Beach Boys on a regular basis after the release of The Beach Boys in 1985. Landy's illegal use of psychotropic drugs on Wilson and his interference in all of his affairs was finally legally ended by Brian's brother Carl.

Dick Cavett, comic, talk show host, Yale graduate

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He has openly discussed his bouts with clinical depression in recent years, an illness he has had to deal with since his freshman year at Yale. He was the subject of a 1993 video produced by the Depression and Related Affective Disorders Association called A Patient's Perspective. He was sued in 1997 by a producer for breach of contract when failing to show up for a nationally syndicated radio program (also called "The Dick Cavett Show"); Cavett's lawyer confirmed to the Associated Press at the time that Cavett left due to a manic-depressive episode.

Jim Carrey, comic, actor

Quote:

There have also been other personal struggles, including depression.

"I was on Prozac for a long time. It may have helped me out of a jam for a little bit, but people stay on it forever. I had to get off at a certain point because I realized that, you know, everything's just OK," says Carrey.

"There are peaks, there are valleys. But they're all kind of carved and smoothed out, and it feels like a low level of despair you live in. Where you're not getting any answers, but you're living OK. And you can smile at the office. You know? But it's a low level of despair. You know?"

Instead, he says he doesn’t take anything. "I rarely drink coffee. I'm very serious about no alcohol, no drugs. Life is too beautiful."

Now, he draws his strength from the spiritual side of his life. And despite a rare Los Angeles downpour, he insisted on taking Kroft to his secret spot where he goes to shut out the rest of the world. It took a five-minute climb up a trail on his property to reach his destination.

"This is my spot. This is the center of the universe," says Carrey. "This is where I hang out with Buddha and Krishna and you know, all those guys."

Mike Wallace, award winning journalist

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Could you tell us a little bit about your struggle with depression, which you have made public.

I had done a story about depression on 60 Minutes early on. I didn't know anything about it, really. I found out about a California fellow who ran a large corporation, who had been Secretary of Defense or Assistant Secretary of Defense. He had it all. He talked to me about it and said, "Suddenly, I found myself in a deep depression. What was I depressed about?" Josh Logan was on that, and he too had a manic depression. So we put the piece on the air. Then, when I was on trial for my life effectively, during the Westmoreland trial, when he sued CBS and me and a variety of other employees of CBS for $120 million because we told the truth about the story called "The Uncounted Enemy" of Vietnam deception. I sat in the cold and drafty Federal courtroom in Foley Square in New York for about five months, and the plaintiff puts on his case first in a libel suit. He has sued for $120 million bucks. To be called "liar, cheat, fraud," et cetera, and in a libel case nothing is barred. Little by little by little, I found myself getting spacey, and unable to sleep and unable to eat, and I mean really, what in the dickens is going on? What happened, obviously it took me a little time to find out, was that I was in a classical, clinical depression. I mean it really was a tough one. I was copeless; not just hopeless, but copeless. I tried to keep on working, because I was ashamed of acknowledging the fact that I was depressed. You don't use that word.

What year are we talking about?

The broadcast was '82, the trial was '84.

I finally got to see a psychiatrist, and he said, "Mr. Wallace," and I said "Yes, Dr. Kaplan," and today, 20 years later, it is still Dr. Kaplan and Mr. Wallace. I see him every six months or so for a lube job, so to speak. He said, "You are suffering from a depression. We can treat it." Et cetera, et cetera. So what happened was he fed me something called ludiomil and talked to me. That's in my estimation quite important, that you do separate therapy along with pharmacological therapy. He talked to me, and little by little by little he found out -- he didn't really know what it was that I did at that time -- finally he said to me, "You know something, Mr. Wallace," -- this was after about a month of therapy -- "What you have to do is to get ready, number one, to answer the kind of questions that you like to ask people, because they are going to ask you that on the stand. Then you have to get ready to lose, because if you lose, you think your life is gone. Well we're going to try in these sessions to get you ready for that." Of course he was absolutely right. But what the ludiomil did was make your hands shake, among other things. It dried your mouth, everything. But I could just see myself sitting on the stand five yards from the jury with a glass in my hand and my hand shaking and the jury saying, "Well, any guy whose hand is shaking that way is obviously guilty." In any case, because we were superbly represented, the case was made and he went away. He dropped the lawsuit.

I didn't want to talk about the stigma of depression. Finally, one night I was on the Bob Costas Show, back when he did Later on television, about 1:30 in the morning. In the middle of it, I suddenly realized, "Hey, the people who are watching at this time of night are people who can't sleep." So I decided those are the people that I used to be, and that is the first time I began to go public about it. It lifted an extraordinary burden. Since that time I have talked about it fairly openly for the reason that it can be helpful for other people to say, "Well look, here's a guy who was at the bottom of the heap, miserable, and look, he has it back. He is surviving."

There's no shame in having it.

There's about as much shame as getting Scarlet Fever. No, there is no shame whatsoever.

Tipper Gore also went public in the last couple of years. Her depression was also triggered by an event in her life, a very serious injury to one of her children. That is something a lot of people don't realize, that there can be a triggering incident. That doesn't mean it's not clinical depression.

Or genetics can trigger it. A shocking event, the loss of a job, the loss of a marriage, there are all kinds of things. It may be latent in you. As I look back, I believe my mother probably had a tendency to that. But it can be treated, if people would pay attention to it, and when they are given some kind of medication, stick with it. Find the right recipe and stick with it. Sometimes it takes a little while to catch.

We ask our interviewees what the American Dream means to them. You have spoken to so many different people from so many walks of life in the years you have been broadcasting.

What does that phrase mean to you today, "The American Dream?"

Well, it's such a wonderful country. The American Dream is the privilege of being able to realize what you are capable of, at least what you believe you are capable of, and to test yourself, and nobody is going to get in your way. Maybe if you are black it's not so easy, for some people it is not so easy, for certain minorities, for women. It is the extraordinary freedom that comes with opportunity, to try to make of yourself what you would like to make of yourself.

Vincent van Gogh, artist

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A servant who worked for the Van Gogh family when Vincent was a child described him as an, "odd, aloof child who had queer manners and seemed more like an old man," than the child he was. Vincent was a disappointment to his mother, and eventually to his entire family, even his beloved brother Theo Van Gogh who supported him financially for the 10 years that he worked as a painter.

In his many letters, it is clear that Van Gogh was aware of his depressive tendencies, and that he had experienced them most of his life. After one of his mental crises he wrote "Well, even in that deep misery I felt my energy revive, and I said to myself: in spite of everything I shall rise again, I will take up my pencil, which I have forsaken in great discouragement, and I will go on with my drawing, and from that moment everything has seemed transformed in me." Van Gogh seemed to utilize the incredible high spirits, which always followed his severe depressions, as a source of his creative energy.

In 1886, at the age of 33, Van Gogh went to Paris and mingled with Toulouse-Lautrec, Gauguin, Seurat, and other painters who were later considered among the best. His painting techniques were influenced by these impressionists, and their use of bright colors and their choice of less sentimental subject matter altered the direction his style of painting would take. Unless depression overcame him, he carefully avoided his tendency to paint dark canvases and subjects who were weighted down with the drudgeries of life.

However, after two years of working among the Parisian artistic community, Van Gogh's delicate nervous system began to collapse. His friendship with Paul Gauguin was in Van Gogh's own words, "electric," but like all of his other relationships it was doomed by Van Gogh's inability to comprehend normal social relationships. On December 24, 1888, an argument ensued between them. Van Gogh unsuccessfully attacked Gauguin, then mutilated himself by cutting a large piece off of his ear (See his famous painting below in which he depicts the injury), he wrapped the severed ear in paper, and gave it to a startled prostitute whom he had befriended. When his brother learned of this incident, he had Vincent institutionalized for two weeks in Arles, France in 1888. This was followed by several more breakdowns in 1890.Vincent's sister, Elizabeth Van Gogh, described his demeanor as a child. He was "intensely serious and uncommunicative, and walked around clumsily and in a daze, with his head hung low." She continued by saying, "Not only were his little sisters and brothers (he was the oldest of 8) like strangers to him, but he was a stranger to himself."

Jinn · 06-14-2006, 10:11 AM

THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT!! THANK YOU FOR PROVIDING THE ARTICLES!

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But these bouts did not slow him down. He acted as if he was driven and denied himself rest or relaxation. It was like he was afraid to slow down or stop. Part of this drive was to satisfy his tremendous ego.

Quote:

Using various means....work, humor, fatalistic resignation, or even religious feelings....he generally did not allow the depression or melancholy to interfere with his work as President. He overcame this depressive aspect of his personality with a powerful inner strength and will.

Quote:

which later became the lyrics to "Tomorrow Is Today".

Quote:

"I was on Prozac for a long time. It may have helped me out of a jam for a little bit, but people stay on it forever. I had to get off at a certain point because I realized that, you know, everything's just OK," says Carrey.
Now, he draws his strength from the spiritual side of his life. And despite a rare Los Angeles downpour, he insisted on taking Kroft to his secret spot where he goes to shut out the rest of the world. It took a five-minute climb up a trail on his property to reach his destination.

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But it can be treated, if people would pay attention to it, and when they are given some kind of medication, stick with it. Find the right recipe and stick with it. Sometimes it takes a little while to catch.

Quote:

Well, it's such a wonderful country. The American Dream is the privilege of being able to realize what you are capable of, at least what you believe you are capable of, and to test yourself, and nobody is going to get in your way. Maybe if you are black it's not so easy, for some people it is not so easy, for certain minorities, for women. It is the extraordinary freedom that comes with opportunity, to try to make of yourself what you would like to make of yourself.

Quote:

"Well, even in that deep misery I felt my energy revive, and I said to myself: in spite of everything I shall rise again, I will take up my pencil, which I have forsaken in great discouragement, and I will go on with my drawing, and from that moment everything has seemed transformed in me." Van Gogh seemed to utilize the incredible high spirits, which always followed his severe depressions, as a source of his creative energy.

Those that decided to stop being failures moved on with their life and "realized what they were capable of." They stopped being failures and found a way OUT of the depression, to future success. Those that wallowed in the depression (Van Gogh) dwindled themselves to death. Read any of their descriptions of "depression" and you'll see that they're failing themselves. Read any of their descriptions of what happened afterwards, and you'll see the success. Depression = failure, anyone?

powerclown · 06-14-2006, 10:32 AM

So...whenever one is in a depressive state, it means their lives are a failure, but as soon as they feel better they suddenly become successful? Are you saying that its possible to be both a failure and a success at the same time?

It's like saying a great athlete is a failure because he has a sprained ankle. But when he's feeling healthy, he's back to being a great athlete.

Jinn · 06-14-2006, 12:03 PM

Quote:

So...whenever one is in a depressive state, it means their lives are a failure, but as soon as they feel better they suddenly become successful? Are you saying that its possible to be both a failure and a success at the same time?

Certainly not - it would be pedantic and pointless to label an entire life as a failure. Your metaphor is not applicable except in cases of (8). It would be more like a ballplayer who decides that they don't want to play in a game. Later, they decide that they might as well not play again, since they didn't play last time. In this way, it's cyclical and pointless, much like depression. And yes, it would be a failure. Likening it to an injury is saying that depression is completely out of your control. It's not. And anyone chosing to follow the path of "sitting out of the game" is failing.

powerclown · 06-14-2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

Certainly not - it would be pedantic and pointless to label an entire life as a failure.

I'm confused.
Are you saying that one is only a failure when in a depressive state?
Are you saying that failure is a permanent state of being?
Are you saying success is a permanent state of being?
Converesly, are you saying that happiness equates to success?
Are you talking about people who are depressed their entire lives?
Are you saying that depression is transitory and can simply be a part of the life of a successful person?

Sorry for all the questions...its a compelling subject here. I think I'm confused as to your definiton of failure and success.

06-06-2006, 05:43 PM	#86 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	eDIT - changed mind Last edited by jorgelito; 06-06-2006 at 05:59 PM..

06-06-2006, 06:22 PM	#90 (permalink)
DEI37 Go faster! Location: Wisconsin	You want to know when you're a failure? It's not when you're depressed, that's for damn sure. I've been there. It's not necessarily even caving once in a while. Being a failure is when you just quit caring and trying. When you can't stand up for yourself, what you believe, or things of that nature, you're a failure. Being depressed equalling failure? That's pathetic. __________________ Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

06-07-2006, 06:09 AM	#92 (permalink)
Toaster126 Extreme moderation Location: Kansas City, yo.	For Sultana and Cynthetiq: Many people disagree with, hate, etc. things about other people that aren't part of themselves. To say that all or most people who dislike something about other people do that because they dislike something about themselves is really a huge fucking stretch. __________________ "The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand) "The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

06-07-2006, 07:47 AM	#94 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	Not all people who are even clinically depressed are failures. Not all people who are failures are clinically depressed. I believe the two do not truely have a connection. I do believe that almost all failures will come up with some REASON for their failure other than themselves. Depression is a popular excuse for failure because it's not something that other people can measure or deny. There is no concrete proof of depression unless a Dr can diagnose it. I have a friend who is clinically diagnosed as Bi-Polar. He has socked away a lot of money, has a job that he's held down for 10 years (he's only 32) and is a very responsible person. I could consider him successful. Depression has nothing to do with success or failure. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

06-12-2006, 12:42 AM	#105 (permalink)
Merlocke Location: Canada	Well, if it means anything at all - all this talk about depression got me out of a funk I was in. Gotta love the whole "Holy shit, it could be worse" realization. Besides, depression AND failure are only temporary. __________________ -=[ Merlocke ]=-

06-06-2006, 06:04 PM	#89 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	That is an excellent point Abaya - maybe we are misunderstanding his point . I understood it as the "excuse" reason. That could be the source of the problem - perhaps it's not clear or too nuanced.

06-12-2006, 07:14 AM	#106 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	Glad to hear that, Merlocke. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

06-12-2006, 11:26 PM	#108 (permalink)
passthru Addict Location: Portland, OR	What a welcoming title. A statement like that couldn't be anything but harmful to somebody who's depressed. Good job, and thanks for starting a conversation that way in a community that is otherwise very friendly and helpful.

06-14-2006, 10:32 AM	#118 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	So...whenever one is in a depressive state, it means their lives are a failure, but as soon as they feel better they suddenly become successful? Are you saying that its possible to be both a failure and a success at the same time? It's like saying a great athlete is a failure because he has a sprained ankle. But when he's feeling healthy, he's back to being a great athlete. Last edited by powerclown; 06-14-2006 at 10:37 AM..