Jinn

Recently I've had a lot of "struggle" in my life, and it all seems to be revolve around one central concept - virtualization. Life is easier, faster, and more convenient in virtual worlds. I feel like we're on the cusp of a huge jump in human evolution, and I'm one of the few who recognizes the power of it.

Throughout human history, there's always been a concept of escapism. People enjoy escaping from real life. Drugs, alcohol, addictions -- they're all escapes. They take us from our dreary normal life into something more desirable. Drugs can make you feel like you're doing supernatural things, let you feel things you've never felt, and let you go places you've never been. People like this.

But most drugs are illegal, and for good reason. Why? When you start to escape from "real-life" regularly enough (become an addict), your "real-life" starts to suffer. What if that life didn't exist? What if you were subject only to the reality of your "virtual-life" and had no obligations to the real world? Nowadays we call those people insane or drug addicts, but I think they see something that we're all about to see in the next 50 years. There's a lot of advantages to a virtual life, enough so that I can't think of any benefits to living a normal life.

I'm limited now, of course, by the technology. We're about 20-50 years behind my desire, but I see it in my lifetime. I have to keep a "normal life" because I need money, food, a place to stay, etc.. etc.

To give you an idea of what I mean, think about the "problems" in society today.

Nationalism / Isolationism:

War after war has occured because people didn't understand other people and their culture. People inherently desire uniformity, and when confronted suddenly with non-standard ideals, their reaction is to rebel and change the other people. With virtualized worlds, language and geographical barriers go away. Real time software translation is already good, and getting better. Soon enough we'll be able to have people talking in their first language and being understood completely by everyone else, regardless of THEIR language. This is the ultimate in communication and tolerance. Someone is 8000 miles away? Not a problem. You don't have to take a flight to them. You can talk to them and see their virtual avatar no matter your location or their location. It promotes global dissemination of ideas, and truly creates a HUMAN knowledgebase rather than country-by-country. Academics would love this.

Racism/Sexism/Ageism

Because you're not physically connected, everyone is who they want to be. Suddenly things like if you have female or male genetalia doesn't matter - you're just another person out there in the world. You can make yourself big and strong, small and weak. You could be black, white, native american, whatever you want. People won't be able to judge you based on what you look like, only what you say and do. It's the utopian "equal" world that every one fighting for equal rights strives for. And we can create it!

The same thing goes for attraction. A big part of society is arguing about what is attractive, and similarly being self concious about our own appearance. People pay thousands of dollars to meet someone elses ideal of beauty. In a virtual world, you can look like whatever you want. You want to be a small brunette with green eyes? No? Blond with blue eyes? No? You're playing God. You get to look like whomever you want, whenever you want. No longer will people be so subject to their superficial desires. Couples won't have to fight over "not being attracted to me anymore" because they both can change to meet their partner's unique desires.

Which leads me to the primary concern of those against virtualization - physical and carnal pleasures. JinnKai, how can you experience 'sex' in a virtual world? Research in HCI and Biofeedback devices tell me that this is already becoming a reality. We can devices that can simulate sound, sight, and tactile input. They're certainly not perfect, but they're advancing just as fast as computers are. I see a day in 10 years where you won't be able to tell the difference between a simulated "touch" directly connected to your nerves and a real honest-to-goodness personal touch. What then? When you can experience everything that you can experience in real life in a virtual world, why wouldn't you? I know there are some of you out there who would reject this kind of technology, and I know you've got reasons. I want to hear them. Would you embrace a virtualized world when it came? Why or why not?

Everything is faster - you don't have to sit in traffic for hours commuting to work. Even now, in virtualized worlds such as video games, you can move from area to area as fast as your computer can load it. You don't have to waste time sitting in your car doing nothing -- instantly to work, instantly home. And you don't have to waste time taking showers or getting ready; you can look like whatever you want, remember..?

You are not limited by the expense, inconvience, and stigma that drugs bring. You are limited only to your imagination and the constructs of the technology that supports it. You want to pretend you are a military sargeant in command of WW2 soldiers one minute and a mystical elf the next? You got it.

Death? You can't "die" in a virtual world. Only your physical body can die. You want to drive a car 200 MPH around a track and not be afraid of death? Virtual world provides it. Crash and burn, and you simply reset the simulation rather than the death that would accompany it in a real world.

Your wealth is not an issue anymore; people will again be only able to judge you by what you say and what you do, not what your clothes look like or whether you live in a slum hole or a luxury mansion.

We're the first generation fully capable of virtualizing an environment, and I'm excited about it. I want the world ot be in my control, and I want to be able to have the convenience of my dreams and desires being available. I want to be able to virtualize myself to a beach in Guatamala, and see the rivers of Venice. I can do all of that in a virtual environment without ever having to take a plane or drive to the airport or check my baggage.

Movies have addressed this idea briefly; and I think many of the predictions are right. Embracing an environment like this would mutate our bodies into brain shells, where the physical ability to lift your arm is not even necessary. You need only to be able to control a virtual arm to have a successful life.

Again -- what am I missing? I know I am, but I need you guys to tell me what problems you see with a virtual environment. Would you reject it, if it came?

Currently, the only limitation I see is in infrastructure. Who supports this massive computing worldwide? And the energy required to drive all the machinery? Who provides us with the food to keep our physical bodies alive while our brains participate in a globalized virtualized conversation? I don't know, but I think that these will be issues that iron themselves out when or if this day comes to fruition.

What do you think?

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

ASU2003

It sounds like you are describing a movie like Total Recall or The Matrix. I would love to see it happen, but I think it might be a few centuries away.

Demand would be huge if they perfected the perfect Sims game where you could live another virtual 'Real Life' and retain all of the memories of it. What to be a rich guy, go on a killing spree, have an orgy, and other stuff you fantasize about, but wouldn't do in real life.

But, how do you know we aren't living in that virtual world right now... Al you would need to do is perfect replication of all five senses in the brain and hook up the body to an umbilical cord to provide oxygen, water and nutrients. Building a massive supercomputer to run everything might be a challenge though.

Jinn

We might be, but it's a shitty fuckin' simulation. I want more control - I want the utopian virtualization, not the Matrix-esque "humans rejected the perfect world" shithole that we live in now.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

abaya

haha, maybe you're *under* someone else's control right now, but you just don't know it. The trick is, we'll never have that much control... and if we did, I'd be more than scared to see what happened. Have you read 1984, Brave New World, etc?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Siege

But it's true, different people have a different perception of a perfect world. Thus, the world must be different for each individual person for it to be perfect, which can't really be done. But if you were to make us PERCEIVE that the world was perfect regardless of our situation... that would be a little different.

__________________
"Your name's Geek? Do you know the origin of the term? A geek is someone who bites the heads off chickens at a circus. I would never let you suck my dick with a name like Geek"

--Kevin Smith

This part just makes my posts easier to find

docbungle

To embace this "virtual world" you speak of would seem to defeat the entire purpose of being human, and of being alive. To substitute all real things for simulations of those things is...well, what would be the point? It just doesn't sound promising, imo.

What does the "real world" have to offer? Plenty, my friend. Plenty.

__________________
Bad Luck City

ASU2003

Think of it like the holodeck in Star Trek.

I went to the Indy 500 today, but I don't have to opportunity to do it in real life.

In a true virtual simulation, I could take a few laps around the track or actually be in one of the cars during a replay of the race.

I'm not sure we would live in the virtual world all the time, but it would be addicting since we would have the ability to do things that we couldn't do in our current lives.

thingstodo

So true!!!!

Anyone who wants a virtual world should just do drugs since it is basically the same thing. And I'm certainly not suggesting this as a realistic alternative.

At the risk of repeating what was said above...enjoy life, find the wonder and beauty in the life around you, go someplace new and different, travel, experience life!! If you need an escape, read a book or watch a movie and use your imagination!

__________________
If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves.

Stangers have the best candy.

ASU2003

Why use my imagination when I could plug into a world that is undistinguishable from the real world, and do anything and anyone without fear, morals or lack of money?

I would love to go to the space station, but I don't have $20 million lying around, and I don't think NASA will pick me out of all the other candidates. I would love to fight in some futuristic war without the fear of dying in real life. I would love to walk in on a cheerleading team in the locker room and, well I don't think that I need to explain the rest that one. I wouldn't do drugs in real life, but could do them in the virtual world without risk of addiction, bad health effects, or the law.

Yes, I can fantasize about them and that's fun and all, but it would be different if you could experience it, even if it is connected to a machine that over-rides all of your senses.

Impetuous1

I like to escape from real life once in a while. That's why I watch movies and read books. Sure, in theory the idea of escaping this world for a virtual one sounds great. But when do you become a slave to the escapism? Eventually it's time to rejoin reality. Living in a virtual world just negates responsibility, character building and any real emotional maturity. How do you grow and mature when you can get everything you want? I like real life just fine. I like touching real people and eating real food. I like the more intense emotions that come from knowing someone in person rather than from a virtual reality. I don't think I'll be leaving this reality for some false version that smacks too much of some post apocalyptic nightmare like The Matrix.

Mantus

JinnKai, I thought you played MMO's?

All the issues will still exist, they'll just take a differnt form. We can't escape our nature. We will always find some way to stratify ourselves and fight against each other.

Charlatan

Actually JinnKai, the reason your life sucks is that you are just a construct in *my* virtual world. I had you constructed to amuse me and add colour to my solipsist world.

Mantus has it right though... unless you live in a solipsist world, you will just create the same nonsense that make "real life" interesting.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

vanblah

The main problem with virtualization is that human beings have evolved over millenia to be physical creatures. We are already feeling the effects of neglecting that aspect of our nature. Obesity and sedentary lifestyle related illnesses are rampant.

Technology may well be available in the relatively short span of 20-50 years, but the human body will still be exactly the same barring any major genetic developments. We'll be lucky if we can prevent certain illnesses through genetic manipulation, never mind "designer babies." Genetics won't be able to modify the human body in such a way that evolutionary change does.

Evolutionary change doesn't work like that. The human body will not evolve into a "shell with a brain." Evolution is a physical adaptation based on survival in a physical world. To over-simplify: millions of years ago a monkey was born with an opposing digit that was slightly closer to it's four other digits. This gave that monkey the advantage in grasping a weapon. He challenged the alpha-male and won. He bred with all the females and lo-and-behold many (not all) of his offspring were born with the same "defect." They too were better at tool and weapon holding.

I realize that the brain can be fooled into "thinking" that the body is exercising and physically moving … heck, you could even have the body connected to various machines that simulate walking and running so that the muscles don't atrophy. The problem with this is, "what's the point?"

Academically speaking it's cool and all that, but you would be using more energy than is necessary to live. We're already feeling the effects of that as well. Why add even more?

So already we have two major hurdles to overcome: the body and it's NEED for physical activity and how closely related that activity is for the brain to function properly AND the energy problem.

I have absolutely no doubt that major parts of life will be virtualized in a few decades. Most corporate jobs, school, and entertainment will most likely ALL be virtualized. Real-estate is our most expensive commodity right now and unless major population control occurs it's just going to get worse. Virtualizing these things will help with keeping cost down. Of course, this assumes that we'll still be using "money and wealth" as a measure of success.

My biggest problem with a scenario such as virtualization on the scale you're talking about is this: in a virtual world you will only be experiencing what certain people want you to experience. Human nature is NOT benevolent.

You said it yourself. Everyone, from the most peaceful, tree-hugging hippie on up the chain has evolved to desire one thing: <i>control</i>. Control over what they consider to be the "right" way to live. Control over what happens to themselves, their families and friends. Control over nature. Control over other people. Even if each person's virtual world is completely different and tailored individually there will always be a few people out there who want to be in control of YOUR world. You could completely disconnect yourself from "other" virtual worlds, but then you'd be limiting human existence to the individual. The species would die off.

Of course, I'm taking it to its extreme. I think you were describing an escapist scenario. Like using it for recreation. But some of the things you mentioned were dissatisfaction with "real life" and wouldn't it be cool if <i>society</i> was like this?

Jinn

No! The appeal is that everything you experience is on under your own control, not other's virtualized ideas;

Perhaps what I meant to specify (and envisioned) is a collection of virtualized worlds. Every person would have the ability to create virtual worlds of their own; their virtualized house, their virtualized trip to Italy; their virtual run through the park. Additionally, a connectivity layer would be present to allow others to enter your virtual world and participate. There'd of course of be freaky virtualizations created by equally freaky people, but you'd be free to disconnect at any time. This allows you to live your happy "controlled virtualization" as well as interact with others -- such as the virtualized academy where anyone regardless of geography, stature, or language can come and speak or listen to other academics (with appropriate software translations).

And I appreciate the explanation of evolution, although I do understand it quite well myself.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

abaya

This is such an excellent quote, I couldn't help but repeat it here. You have expressed precisely why I am so irritated with much of modern technology, even though I use it daily. I would hate to live in a world that is even more virtualized than mine already is.. I would never want that.

And, to respond to Jinn's latest post: why the hell would anyone want that much control over their own lives? I mean yeah, we all talk about wanting to have more control, but to actually have it? I think the appeal of "real life" is exactly that: the lack of control we have, and how we learn to deal with random shit (and random good stuff, too... some of the best stuff in life right there).

To quote Modest Mouse: "Who would wanna be such a control freak?"

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

vanblah

Don't get me wrong, I welcome the day that something like what you are talking about is available. It may certainly be cheaper than a "real vacation" in the long run. I was just taking the idea to the extreme in order to obtusely answer the question, "What advantage does real life provide?"

I think the real answer is moot, since if you are perfectly fooling the brain then there's no advantage of one over the other. However, if you are aware that the simulacrum is controlled (by yourself) then the brain can't be fooled; unless you have an extreme "god complex" and you are being God in your own world and even then there's still the question as to whether the brain would actually be fooled.

I suppose that if all of the above were possible then you could shut off the part of the brain with the memory that the world is not real. But then you'd be at the mercy of outsiders again. What if someone physically entered the room where you were enjoying this virtual world and could access whatever machine your were connected to? They'd have to first bypass those proximity detectors that you set up, of course

The one advantage of the real world is that, for the most part, you know when you're being fucked with.

(The explanation of evolution was not really an explanation at all, it was an example to get my point across.)

Cynthetiq

seems like just an updated version of the allegory of the cave

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thingstodo

All so true. And my quote here would be "Be careful what you wish for."

__________________
If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves.

Stangers have the best candy.

Kostya

Well all I can say is that I'd feel sorry for the IT guys.

We live in a world where Chinese peasants are farming gold in Azeroth daily for a pittance. Were I to pick one (of many) objections to the idea of this virtual world, it would be that it is not ubiquitously virtual.

This is a fairly narrowly defined 'generation' I think. What about the current residents of Guatamala in real life? I doubt they would have the resources necessary to jack into a virtual tour of anywhere. We're not talking about a Utopia at all as far as I can see, and I think it is gleefully unfair to even entertain the preposterous idea that this 'virtual construct' somehow negates reality. Certainly, for all who enter it, there is an escape from reality, but there is a very clear and distinct difference, escape means you left something behind.

Indeed, I cannot think of a more cogent illustration of the fact that a 'virtual world' is still part of the 'real world' than the fate of the countless Chinese WOW gold farmers who spend 12 hours a day in Azeroth farming gold to sell on Ebay.

You say that this virtual world will be free from nationalism, racism, sexism and everything else. This is a moot point frankly, but how trivial it is when clearly these very real problems will not be solved. Will Nigeria suddenly become a beacon of peace and harmony on account of this virtual world? We wouldn't have a Utopia, we'd have a Elitist Enclave.

Some of what you are saying I think is profoundly important, for instance this:

But I think this is true enough of the TFP as it is of your morbidly escapist world.

Sure I desperately want to see an end to the horrorid little arbitray 'isms' that are in the world today, but I want to see them actually ended rather than have a pair of elaborate rose coloured glasses. Make no mistake, the internet, is in the world, and it has such potential for great change, in so far as it serves that world of which it is a part.

Using the internet to coordinate outreach groups - fine.
Using the internet as a latter day opium den - no dice.

We're all in the real world, even if we cocoon ourselves inside a virtual one within it. The real world is rife with everything you have said and moreso, poverty, hatred, death, exploitation and disease. I cannot see your post as anything other than a happy acceptance of a permanent, ubiquitous anaesthetic.

What does real life have to offer? Real life is where you can make a real difference to real problems. To gleefully embrace a wholly virtual life is to toss aside the precious gift of human agency for a trite facade of an existence which I do not hesitate to call despicable.

abaya

Very, very well put, Kostya. This is why no utopias can ever work... because ultimately, you cannot ignore class and differential access to material resources, no matter how nice it sounds. Right on the money, man.

I love your post because it takes into account the global inequities that continue to increase just as a small portion of "humankind" (mostly Westerners, and particularly Americans) continues to increase its ability to control technology. One feeds the other, in the manner of colonialism of old.

Technological advances, including virtual devices, do nothing to advance the general well-being of the majority of the world's population. This isn't because they are inherently bad technologies, but because they are inequitably managed and distributed. It comes down to humans being inhuman to each other... and that's not something any virtual reality is ever going to change.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran