Sage

The pupil will only be as good as the teacher

homeschooled, public schooled, private schooled, college, grad school, whatever.

And personally I've found www.collegesucks.net to be invaluable in helping me choose teachers- although it might be spotty for some schools, an alma matter from UNC-Asheville created it, so it's got EVERY teacher from my school on it

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Ustwo

To quote the great Dean Vernon Wormer: Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son.

When they get 'old' which for most athletes is their early 30's, they will be poorly educated has beens. I do hope they marry well.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

EULA

Since most people who are fat, drunk, and stupid have gone through the "great sieve", Wormer's quote, in the context of this thread, loses its spice.
Such contempt for humans have thee. Does learning stop around the mid-20s? Can significant study only take place in school?

Athletics is their main concern right now, but their curiosities will take them to other places. Homeschooled children have plenty of time to entertain their curiosities and interests. There is no room for curiosity in a classroom.

mokle

Here's my take on it:

College teaches you to be a good employeee

If your goal is a good salary and pension, go to college.

I dropped out of college, and I'm quite happy where I am

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Mokle
"Your hands can't hit what your eyes can't see" -Ali

EULA

I've missed out on a few job opportunities, because at school I was a terrible student. If I didn't feel like going to class I didn't go. If I didn't feel like studying or doing homework, I didn't. All the while, when working, I get up and go to work whether I want to or not.

Work and school are two completely different things, but out meritocracy doesn't understand that too well.

Ustwo

Sounds like you needed a good military academy

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

kangaeru

College, like most of you seem to think, is not a waste of time. Like anything else in life, it is what you make of it.

I've been a computer / IT whiz my whole life. I'm 20 right now, working at ESPN, and I've been offered several 35kish starting salaries just since I returned home from studying abroad. I could be making 75k by the time I'm 30, and doing well for myself.

But i'm staying in college, I'm learning what I want to learn, and then I'm leaving. Maybe because my school is very liberal (umass, amherst) I am able to do this, by designing my own major and picking all my own courses. As of now I'd been focusing on intense japanese classes (I read/write on a first grade level and speak conversationally after 4 semesters), and now I am going to change focus to economics and accounting.

I have plans to start my own business using all these skills, and I'm taking hand picked classes in school which are going to lead me to exactly where I need to be. It seems everyone goes to grad school after they have their bachelors...I don't want to be a student forever. I want to get out there and do things.

But I do need an education for that. Plus, it's fun partying in college.

The point of this is that you can get a LOT out of college, if you are smart enough to recognize that while you're there. I have tons of friends who are 2.5 gpa psychology majors who smoke weed and kill 30's all week long--they'll be mediocre their whole lives, and probably unhappy. Some people just don't have vision or motivation, and whether they stay in school or drop out isn't going to change that.

College is an amazing place to have fun, learn what you need to succeed, and bridge the realm of teen and adult. If you make it that.

catback

After skimming this whole thread just one thing comes to mind, "Corrupt minds think alike."

Kangaeru unless your not gonna work for a business or start a business that doesn't do business with japanese companies you should continue your japanese language education because if you don't you may find younger higher up japanese execs fresh from japan that speak english on a first grade (if that) level telling you what to do. Sounds far fetched but I've seen it and lived it.

kangaeru

catback -- sound advice.

I guess I came off wrong with my 'plan'. For the first two years (4 semesters) I have focused my studies in Japanese language. Now for the last 4 semesters, I am going to FOCUS on economics. I had been taking japanese literature / culture courses in addition to some intro econonic stuff...I'm going to continue my japanese language training but i only have one more semester of 6 credit, 5 day a week classes left to take. After that it'll be a normal 3 credit class, but it will still be at a high level and I'll be doing things like reading books and newspapers.

So basically I'm going to just pull my japanese language learning back from it's breakneck pace. I'll be taking the hardest intensive class, an advanced intermediate level, spring of next year, in addition to accounting, labor economics, legal studies, and some other nasty courses.

What's really cool is I picked all the classes I wanted to take for the next 2 years, and by themselves they don't equal a major but I have been able to turn them into one. My school gives me a half difference discount between out of state and in state tuition because my home state college, UCONN, does not offer japanese as a major and umass does. So I talked to my japanese major advisor and they're allowing me to remain declared a Japanese major and receiving my tuition discount as long as I maintain some japanese language study class every semester. So then a month before I graduate I will turn around, re-declare for the major I designed two years ago, and voila.

Down the rabbit hole and into the real world =)

p.s. If my plan goes right I will not have to work for anybody, American Japanese or otherwise. Maybe my future customers, but that'll be it =)

__________________
Dont be afraid to change who you are for what you could become

EULA

roachboy

i had written a quite long post that was largely autobiographical, but decided to delete it and do something shorter instead. i have to say that i initially thought of saying something parallel (in terms of my experience) to what ustwo did in post no. 10--but i think he did a fine job on it there and it seemed redundant.

i went to college for a year right out of high school--i realized pretty quickly that i did not know what i was doing there, that it was a waste of time for me to be there and so--despite huge parental pressure not to do it---i quit.

i stayed quit until i was 24, at which point i started over at a much better school. and i kept going because i wanted to, because i found it engaging, working in a strange netherworld between philosophy, history, social theory and literature--i have a ph.d. in history an have been teaching at the university level for about 10 years.

i am really ambivalent about academicworld.
at this point, i think i will always be ambivalent about it.

there is a side of academics in the states that is a simple information factory. this side is a big deal because it is about numbers--if you deliver information as a commodity and do it in spectacle form, so that going to class is like watching tv, you appeal to alot of folk because you offer them an experience without necessary engagement.

there is also a side of it that is more than that, but you will not necessarily find that side unless you either (a) stumble onto it or (b) you know why you are there, more or less what interests you and you put in the work to figure out which version of a univeristy experience suits who and where you are.


i think, in the main, that it is idiotic for most folk to expect that at 18 they are in a position to understand enough about themselves, about what is possible, about where they might land, to make the best use of the univeristy as a resource. i sure as hell didnt know, and i was not able to do it. at 18 i thought i knew everything and that everyone i met, students and faculty alike, were kinda stupid. now that might have been true of the folk i encountered, but the other important fact is that was an arrogant little shit at the time. it is embarrassing to look back at this other guy who looks like me and carried around my name.

i think it should be routine for folk to take time off between high school and college.

because my experience is that you can in fact learn a huge amount outside college and that what you learn outside can be more important than what you would otherwise experience had you gone through simply because it was the expected thing to do between the ages of 18 and 22. i see this in my younger self. i saw this when i was a 24 year old undergraduate interacting with younger undergrads--who simply were not in the same place, and were not serious about what they were doing...and i have really seen it while teaching.

on the other hand, i dont think there is anything once and for all about the decision opt out. i dont think that there is anything necessarily better or worse about it. and i think that articles extolling all the rich people who quit and never went back speaks to nothing about this choice.

i would think it makes more sense to see going through university as an option at any point that you might or might not take up as a function of what you happen to be doing, what you want.

unless what you really beleive is that any life choice is justified only by money--in which case maybe you're right--my brother when younger was an undiagnosed dyslexic who never finished high school and he is a millionaire. he is happy with where he is etc, and i am happy for him--though fundamentally i dont think either of us understands how the other is in the world, what really makes the other tick. and i am sure that neither of us would want to do things as the other has.

if you never get to the point where you think that this particular type of structured approach to learning particular to a univeristy is worth doing, then dont do it.

and i do not see where anything about this decision to go or not go requires the accumulation of information about other people to justify it. all it really says is that you are not fucked if you don't play the game this way. and it's true: you aren't.

last autobio story: i am interested in two main areas of activity in the 3-d world: the stuff i write about on the one hand, and the piano on the other. i chose radically opposed paths for each area: for the more academic stuff, i played the game out. for the piano, i refused. i am in my 40s and feel like it is only in the past 4 years or so that i have pulled the piano work into a good working relation to the other things that interest me--it took a long, long time---and i dont know if i could have brought this about faster another way. but i wonder about it.
because, in the end, the only thing i found about working outside these types of structure is that it took me more time to figure things out working alone than it did once i started working through a bigger set of folk, with access to more information.

what i have figured out (phrased as banalities):

life is a process. you don't do your most important stuff when you are a kid, except by accident. they might be really great accidents, but chances are that you do not know how you get to it. later, if you wind round to a similar place (if you think it interesting to go back there) you can know.

genius is just a word. a useless word at that. all it really means is "i dont know how to deal with you" spun in a vaguely positive direction. it describes nothing, says nothing, helps no-one.
if you think that anyone who makes anything does so on the basis of simple "natural" ability without regard for control, you are fooling yourself.
on the other hand, control is not a simple function of information, and a univeristy will not give you control--it gives you access to information--control over that--the ability to move around within information, to organize it, to use it, to push through it--which is the most important element of an education--that is yours to figure out.
no amount of information will get you to it--you get to it, on your own terms, through what you do.
and what you do is not necessarily your day gig.

discipline is a function of control; control is a function of discipline. but like control, discipline does not mean one thing--it is not about submission--it is not about respect for anyone or anything--it is about how you think and the ways in which how you think shape what you do. this too is yours to work out--this too will not be handed you by virtue of going to a university.

a university education is one route that can give you access to a sense of options, a range of information and ways to process and reprocess that information.
it will not on its own get you to the point where you can do anything with that information.
it will not let you in on ways to determine what is and is not relevant.
you have to figure that out for yourself.
you are responsible to yourself for doing it.
of course there is no real pressure on you to do any of this--the american consumer way is not geared around these kind of questions.

one thing i saw in ustwo's post is an outline of a kind of craft approach to what he does. it is circumscribed by the field he works in, like any other.
i think what i am talking about is another way of thinking about the craft of what you do, but from a different set of interests, a different space.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Ragbags

Glad you went with the short one...

roachboy

sorry about that--it is a complicated issue that i have spent ALOT of time thinking about. on occaision, you just have to go on and on. short is not always anything but short. as you obviously know.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

frogza

College is a great tool for people pursuing a select number of careers, for most however it is no more or less than a will power/creativity crutch. The thing the successful people in the drop-out list had in common were will power and creativity, they didn't need someone to take them by the hand and babysit until they had learned something.

EULA

I'm too stuborn for that kinda of thing to "work." As my conductor once said, "You are not motivated by consequences."

Ustwo

Did you ever think the problem isn't college but you?

You seem to have a very strong resentment of any authority or being 'forced' to do basicly anything.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

irateplatypus

as much as i hate to admit, college simply as a means of getting from point A to point B is pretty effective now-a-days. with the increasing number of internet courses and night classes, nearly everyone has access to a college degree. which means, in the long run, that a Bachelor's has become the baseline in most well-paying positions.

i hate that it has become that, just a rubber-stamp for a resume, but it has. my advice to anyone is to get a degree if you are able, even if you hate school, even if you've got limited funds, even if you have little desire to do so. the way the education-level landscape is configured... you'll be way behind the game without a degree. there will always be someone who otherwise will look similarly qualified as you on paper, but will have taken 18 hours at the University of Phoenix or some nonsense. i dislike speaking about college in such a utilitarian way, but that's the reality of the situation... that's the advice I'd give to any friend.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

EULA

The biggest reason I failed in college is because I couldn't pretend that it was valuable. I can't change that. Passing the class isn't enough to compel action. Most people learn what is necessary for the test, take the test, then forget everything two weeks later. They are lucky.

I will have to be vigilent and innovative to get around my incompatibility with our meritocracy.

When I get up in the morning to push carts at wal-mart, I get out of bed, because I don't want to be homeless. That or it is the will of God.

EULA

From what I understand, businesses aren't looking for the rubber stamp anymore, because so many hacks graduate without any significant knowledge or experience. I have this uncle who's rather snooty about his Princeton education all the advanced degrees his children have. Guess what: they are what my father calls the "cronically unemployed." My uncle has a doctorate in English and hasn't found an english teaching job in 8 years. When one of my friends decided to go to college, his father said, "Don't be surprised if you get a degree and end up working at McDonald's for 10 years."

The best bet is to become VERY good at whatever you want to do with your life. Do the work or apprentice and read books on your off time to pick up the academic aspects of the work.

filtherton

I would tend to agree with you when talking about most most liberal arts programs. My friend is about to get a bachelor's in philosphy, and seems to look at it more and more as being a degree in reading comprehension. He enjoys philosophy, but i think realizes that you don't need college to be a proficient philosopher. Most science and technical educations require access to expensive equipment and qualified professors to teach you how to use them, so forgoing college isn't really a serious option for them.

Ustwo

I will be the first to admit I have forgotten more than most people ever learn, and my memory seems a bit worse than most in my position. On the other hand I have retained much, and am able to 'relearn' the material very quickly if there ever is a need, so its all locked away in there somewhere. Most of it doesn't have a value to me, for example I have no reason to know how to biochemically sequence a protein, I did learn how to do it, I did set the curve on the test out of a few 100 people, and I can't recall it off hand, but so what. At the time I didn't know what I'd be doing, and there was a time in my life I DID need to know that and even thought of becoming a genetic engineer. Had I done that instead I'd have a whole new set of 'useless' knowledge and I'd have viewed the biochemistry class as a critical one in my development. In a modern and high tech society, finding ones path in life is not easy, and college helps a lot of people do that. I suppose it helped you as well, as you learned what you did not want to do

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Martian

hay i dropt out of hi skool an it dint hurt me none.

Joking aside, the sentiment is true enough as are the facts. I did drop out of high school and while I wouldn't deem myself successful the average 21 year old student isn't precisely successful either.

I think it's really a matter of the inidividual. Some people do really well in an academic setting and really seem to enjoy it. Ohers, like me, just don't fit into that sort of situation. I realized at a younge age that the traditional school experience just wasn't for me. I may end up taking some college courses yet and I do plan on going back and finishing high school (simply because it closes too many doors to not have at least a high school diploma) but if I do go to college it'll be part time and taking courses that interest me. I don't plan on pursuing a degree. It's also worth noting that while I may not be wealthy I don't really want either. I have my own apartment and a car and the basic luxuries (internet, phone, cable etc) and a bit left over to go out and have fun once in a while. Overall I'm pretty happy with where I am at this point in my life; that and it does sort of amuse me to know that a high school dropout is doing the same job as many with bachelors degrees (and even a couple doctorates) for exactly the same pay. All those kids who went to college in IT fields because "that's where the money is" sort of got stiffed..

EDIT for some minor typos. Martian's brains shut's down at 2 am, but the rest of his body stubbornly continues on.. hence he begins speaking in third person.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Johnny Pyro

I never went to college and I wish I did. I got a good job, but I hate it. If I went to college I might of had a better chance of getting a job I like.

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"From delusion lead me to truth, from darkness lead me to light, from death lead me to eternal life. - Sheriff John Wydell

mystmarimatt

I can agree that self-teaching is an important aspect of life. I was raised with a motto of "If you don't know something, look it up." That's why my parents bought a set of Encyclopediae for my brother and me.

I believe we should be motivated to learn on our own, outside of any class structure. But I can't help but agree with filtherton. College classes help you to learn stuff you may not have the will, or the means to study by yourself. They serve a purpose.

EULA, it's wonderful that you believe in being self-taught. But who wrote that book on history you're reading? Or that book on Biology? I bet they went to college.

__________________
Words of Wisdom:

If you could really get to know someone and know that they weren't lying to you, then you would know the world was real. Because you could agree on things, you could compare notes. That must be why people get married or make Art. So they'll be able to really know something and not go insane.

EULA

How did you get groceries the other day? I bet you rode in a car.

jay-g

Martian

So jay-g, where do I fit in? Not only do I not have the piece of paper from college, I don't have the one from high school. And I'm in a reasonably successful position and looking at a lateral move with a lot more upward mobility.

I don't get where this idea that a college degree is essential comes from.They're helpful in that they demonstrate a level of knowledge in a specialized skill, but you're not doomed to Starbucks without one.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

jay-g

Martian

That's the part that I'm particularly disagreeing with. I work alongside a lot of college graduates in the IT field, doing a technically related job. It's certainly not what would be considered a non-degree establishment and critical thinking is an important part of the job. I got where I am based on my own merits and experience. If I take this other job (which is a lot of the same duties, but with higher pay and more room for advancement) I'll have done the same.

This is the issue I have. There's a widespread belief that a college degree is necessary to avoid the 'low' jobs, such as manual labour or fast food. It's entirely possible to get into a lot of high level jobs without a single scrap of paper to back you up. It takes a lot of hard work and a willingness to start at the bottom, but so does college.

I'm actually also going to disagree that there's anything special about the guys on the Fortune 500. Their minds don't work differently from yours or mine as such, but they do have two things you and I don't. One is the knowledge that it doesn't take anyone special to be at the top and the other is the courage to act on that knowledge.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Stiltzkin

When most people think of "college", they don't think of science or engineering. Most people think of some kind of degree in liberal arts. That's all I'm going to say.

macmanmike6100

I wish I had the time to read about the whole thread but I have some work to do now :-)

My comments, however, moderately agree. College, if a person so chooses, can be like any institution: mind-numbingly programmatic. Most institutions attempt to mold people to think and act the same, for the supposed benefit of that institution.

It benefits companies if drones are churned out of school...but only in the short-term. Innovation is what generates real wealth, not uniformity or the status quo. Surely, we need consistency and moderation, but appreciable growth (I believe) comes from those who are trail-blazers.

It's been said time and time again that those who "succeed" only do so after a myriad of failures. The best teacher is experience, etc. etc. I think that all of that is true, and if we allow our education system to generate drones -- for the short-term benefit of America's corporately-controlled government -- we risk creating an America that, 20 years from now, does not innovate, does not create novel solutions, and thus does not generate the same wealth it does now.

So, I think the point of the quoted article is that we need to learn how to be creative and innovative within our own skins. My university helped me do that, but only because I willed it to be so.

keyshawn

Thanks for the great discussion so far, it's opened my eyes to the debate of formal V. informal education.
Currently, we're talking about this issue a bit in my seminar class [on creativity].
As previously discussed here, it's been


Five weeks into college, there's already been experiences I've learned, and I'm sure there's many more to come. Could some of these been learned out of the school - Yes. Yet, there's some, (like running your own web radio show at college) that are completely unique and special to the college scene.
As stated by matt, filth, and a few others as well; I've already learned a lot that I could have not learned on my own. There's a difference between the scenarios: reading a philosophy book on your own and if you're confused: maybe look at a couple other references [books, wikipedia, etc.] and maybe ask the question on TFP's philosophy section.
OR
Attending a class with about 20 of your peers and a PhD doing the same material with you; discussing it twice a week for a couple hours each time; and being able to discuss said material outside of class possibly as well. My tech-minded teacher [my fav. prof so far ] actually even set up a forum for us so we can discuss outside of class as well.

Both of these scenarios will probably lead you to greater understanding of philosophy. However, the methods of doing this are quite different, and each has their advantages and disadvantages.

Also, over the past few years, I've attempted to informally educate myself on computers and linux. I do believe I am quite literate with said things, although I've never taken a class on it. However, it's taken me about 3 or so years to accumulate my knowledge. I could have possibly learned a significant portion of that in a classroom [or having a mentor or more experienced person there in-person that I could ask questions, etc.]

catcha back on the flipside,
will.


1 - <i> Granted, I could have my own webradio station at home; but factors like connecting with fellow interested peers; browsing through a huge vinyl stash; having the college atmosphere here, and others - are just that different. </I>

__________________
currently reading:

currently playing :

albania

Wow, a lot has been written in this thread. I can not comment on all of it, in part because it would take too long to read. So, I’ll stick to the original article and my opinion on it. First of all, Bill Gates, Jobs, etc were businessmen first and computer scientists second, they got to the pinnacle of technology not by actually writing code, they stole, cheated and used others. You don't need a college degree for that, all you need is to be smart and a manipulator. I think it is the case that with entrepreneurship no college degree is required, plus that sort of success is hit or miss(mostly miss). As was stated earlier, no one is being actually forced to go to college, it all depends on what you want out of life. College is an environment that is set up both for structured learning and socializing, the experience you gain from it is up to each individual, some people may not need it. Others may never function successfully without it, I would put most people in this category. So why not recommend college to most people, if on the average that is what will help them? I am not saying dropping out of college to pursue your dreams is necessarily wrong, but, spreading this philosophy would be illogical since most of us won't be as lucky as Bill Gates.

xepherys

Personally, I'm a high-school dropout with SOME college (no degree) and make a good salary in IT Security. *shrug* I love education for the sake of learning, but I hate college for the sake of structured requirements and cost. If we brough back academia of old (think Plato and Socrates), I'd be there poor as a pauper. Learning to learn is awesome. Learning because you can't get a good job without a piece of paper is ridiculous!