Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community (https://thetfp.com/tfp/)
-   Tilted Knowledge and How-To (https://thetfp.com/tfp/tilted-knowledge-how/)
-   -   universal set paradox (https://thetfp.com/tfp/tilted-knowledge-how/84044-universal-set-paradox.html)

noahfor 02-22-2005 02:24 PM

universal set paradox
 
"Try to take the power set of the universal set. You will find that the universal set must be a member of itself and not a member of itself

Russell does use the Russell set and hierarchy to solve this problem."

I understand the contradiction of russell set, but not of the universal set. Why must the universal set not be a member of itself. How does russell use the russell set to solve the problem. I understnd the theory of types, the hierarchy, but not why russell's set is needed to solve the problem. I also understand the contradiction that the power set must be bigger and the same size as universal set but not the contradiction noted above. Thanks.

asaris 02-22-2005 02:27 PM

It's been a while since I've studied set theory, but in a nutshell, every set has to have a domain, so there is no such thing as the universal set.

noahfor 02-23-2005 12:08 PM

What if there were a set whose members are all the members of the power set of this set, so x is a member of S if x is a member of P(S). Doesn't this violate Cantor's theorem, and also is not able to be resolved by Russell's hierarchy?

I came up with that myself.

asaris 02-23-2005 12:53 PM

Do you mean x is a member of S if and only if x is a member of P(S)? I think you could use Cantor's theorem to show that such a set is impossible -- take f(x) -> x. Since this function is one-to-one (forgive me if I'm forgetting terminology here), S = P(S). But this is impossible, so your definition of a set defines a different set.

I think that's just an impossible set, and so a bad definition of a set. But I'd really feel more confident if someone who's had more set theory could confirm this. Maybe if I have time today or tonight, I'll try to refresh my memory a bit better.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:09 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76