Frozen Bottled Water - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

pig · 02-01-2005, 09:46 AM

C4:

Quote:

Originally Posted by C4

We most definitely are dorking out. Haha...

And don't it feel good?

ps. Everything else you said in your post I either agree with, or am not sure about...and I definately agree that I'm not taking time to go break all those formulas down for this thread...at least not right now

I think we covered the subject fairly well...

C4 Diesel · 02-01-2005, 09:55 AM

Agreed. I think we're done here.

I'll catch you around, pigglet! Have a good one.

pig · 02-01-2005, 10:26 AM

word. enjoy the cold

just got out of the cold myself, and am digging it.

/s.c. native returning the the Glorious South..."Long live the Confeder-a-SIE"
/general cartman lee

keyshawn · 02-01-2005, 01:38 PM

Current update:

one of the bottles [FYI: both are dannon brand - like it matters, 20 oz, transparent plastic] is about a forth full, other bottle is full. Neither of them are frozen as of now, at 27 F...

Thanks to everyone, the question was surely answered

dX927 · 02-01-2005, 03:03 PM

Yeah, the pressure of a sealed bottle will definitely have an effect on what the temperature will end up being over time as well as the volume of water and air in the bottle. But i'm sure several of you have already mentioned this fact.

ICER · 02-01-2005, 05:55 PM

HELLO!?!?!?!?

Quote:

ICER knocks on the screen

Did you people not read my results on two separate experiments? It didn't matter if the bottles were open, close, sealed, or partially full. They all frozen when left in a cold environment for the same length of time

RCAlyra2004 · 02-04-2005, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C4 Diesel

I don't think "moving fast" is a condition that allows supercooling. Agitation is normally a condition that causes nucleation and propagation of phase change. I would be interested to know why this phenomena occurs, though.

Also, supercooling normally does not occur, even in a "clean" water supply. I'm not questioning the added energy requirement necessary to overcome the surface tension which occurs when a particle of a different phase is created, it's just that ordinary water (yes, even distilled water) is normally not that clean. There is already particluate in it which acts as a nucleation center and greatly reduces the surface tension of the new phase. Water that is actually clean is called nanopure water, and we buy it to make buffers which will be used in chemical detection instruments.

The jug thing baffles me. The entire contents turned to ice? The enthalpy of fusion of ice is 334 joules per mL (or gram). This is 80 calories. Even assuming that 1/4 of the jug froze and this was enough to break it, that would still mean that the water was at -20*C.

...Oh, and don't think it's not cold here. I'll wake up and it'll be -25*C (-13*F) here, so it's not like I don't know cold.

The fast moving water I mentioned is moving 180,000 CFS in a very LARGE river in -40C degree conditions. The average civil engineer plans for this when building in a northern climate. Bridges, dams etc are greatly weakened by these effects.

The firm we work for is situated 1000 kilometers (620 miles) north of the American Border near the coast of the Hudson's Bay. In the months of December and January we had 26 days where at 1:00 pm the temperature was below - 25C. Even with a 30 kilometer per hour wind there was still open water in the forbay and the tailrace water of the Generating Stations especially near our medium head plants.

1. Supercooling is a normal winter condition. It's occurance was planned for in the 1960's during the construction of the plants mentioned in my last post. (did I mention them... whatever...) Currently our Hydraulic Engineering and Operations (HEO) staff plan our generation strategy around these conditions.

Supercooling of water occurs (in this case) when fast moving open water is cooled below the normal freezing point of water... It loves to form ice quickly when it flows around a static object such as a bridge beam or intake screen.

2. Frazzle ice clogs the intake screens on at least 3 of our units over a period of 1- 2 months every other year because of these conditions.

3. The frazzle ice that sticks to the Rip-rap on the tailrace (outlet) end of our plants inpinges on the channel enough to cause a 2 - 3 meter (6 - 10) foot rise in tailwater elevation and the subsequent Head loss at the plant is enough to cost about 1 million dollars in lost generation every year at each of the plants when it does occur. Unfortunately this condition affects all of the generators when it occurs, because of the change in tailwater elevation.

Oh yeah... in case you are doing the math here all three of these plants is 1300 megawatts in size or larger. Hence the 180,000 cubic feet per second flow rate... The output is worth many thousands of dollars per hour.

4. I was surprised that the jug of water was actually -20 as you say it had to have been... cool! .... super coool? ha ha

p.s. It was -47C this morning... it warmed up to -26C today... brrrr.

1010011010 · 02-11-2005, 12:24 PM

I'm going to second RCAlyra's hypothesis about backwash.

New clean plastic does not offer as many nucleation sites as you might think. Depending on the method of production and pre-sterilization, the sites that are present can groom the crystals that form into self termination after covering the site.

02-01-2005, 09:55 AM	#42 (permalink)
C4 Diesel Crazy Location: Troy, NY	Agreed. I think we're done here. I'll catch you around, pigglet! Have a good one. __________________ C4 to your door, no beef no more...

02-01-2005, 10:26 AM	#43 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	word. enjoy the cold just got out of the cold myself, and am digging it. /s.c. native returning the the Glorious South..."Long live the Confeder-a-SIE" /general cartman lee __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

02-01-2005, 01:38 PM	#44 (permalink)
keyshawn Psycho	Current update: one of the bottles [FYI: both are dannon brand - like it matters, 20 oz, transparent plastic] is about a forth full, other bottle is full. Neither of them are frozen as of now, at 27 F... Thanks to everyone, the question was surely answered __________________ currently reading: currently playing :

02-11-2005, 12:24 PM	#48 (permalink)
1010011010 Psycho Location: Virginia Beach, VA	I'm going to second RCAlyra's hypothesis about backwash. New clean plastic does not offer as many nucleation sites as you might think. Depending on the method of production and pre-sterilization, the sites that are present can groom the crystals that form into self termination after covering the site. __________________ *Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions*

02-01-2005, 03:03 PM	#45 (permalink)
dX927 Crazy Location: Deltona, FL	Yeah, the pressure of a sealed bottle will definitely have an effect on what the temperature will end up being over time as well as the volume of water and air in the bottle. But i'm sure several of you have already mentioned this fact.