Currently, the longest running hierarchal organization - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

keyshawn · 01-06-2005, 08:37 PM

Is the roman catholic church, according to my theology teacher.
[He was using this to support the Catholic Church and Christianity]

I called BS on that [ < ok, not aloud], and asked him about the Chinese civilization, and he refuted that because of the cultural revolution, switching over to communism, and the various dynasties that they had.

[I don't intend on this being a religious flame fest, I'd just appreciate to discuss the topic]

So, what is the longest running hierarchal organization, currently ?

Thank you for your time,
keyshawn

cyrnel · 01-06-2005, 09:00 PM

Freemasonry predates Christianity, though it does require belief in one god. AFAIK, which god isn't critical, just the acknowledement that you believe in a monotheistic deity. You could say Freemasonry has changed too much to be considered contiguous but the same could be argued about the churches.

hilbert25 · 01-06-2005, 09:41 PM

I would have thought the masons too.

Does zorastrianism have a heirachal organization? It predates christianity by a good bit.

How about Hinduism? That seems extremely heirarchal, but is it older?

Judaism is definitely older, but most of the Heirarchy is gone now.

martinguerre · 01-07-2005, 08:35 AM

uhh...the pharisees obviously have christianity beat by a few years. they're a major part of what comes to be known as judiasm.

tellumFS · 01-07-2005, 10:04 AM

I think what your teacher was referring to is an organization with an acknowledged head, and with "ranks". The Chinese have had signicant breaks (Different dynasties, and more recently a republic and then "Communism").

I'm unsure about the Masons or Pharisees fitting into that category. The Masons, probably, but how long have they been around?

As far as the longest running hierarchical organization from my POV? Shoot. Maybe the Roman Catholic Church, but what about the Eastern Orthodox? They follow the Patriarch of Constantinople...but I don't recall where they derive his power from, as I don't think it's Peter like the Catholics.

It's an interesting question. I'd wager that your teacher is Catholic

keyshawn · 01-07-2005, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tellumFS

I'd wager that your teacher is Catholic

Problem is, it'd be pretty difficult to find another one willing to bet against you

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

Coppertop · 01-07-2005, 03:40 PM

Would the Dali Lama count as the head of an organization?

asaris · 01-08-2005, 07:50 AM

Hindu society is very hierarchical, and it's certainly older than the RCC. (Of course, birth dates for the RCC may vary, but even if you just pick 1 AD, Hindu society is still older.)

tellumFS · 01-08-2005, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asaris

Hindu society is very hierarchical, and it's certainly older than the RCC. (Of course, birth dates for the RCC may vary, but even if you just pick 1 AD, Hindu society is still older.)

But Hindu society isn't an organization. The *office* of Pope is held by (usually) one person. That person is the head of the whole Church. Hindu society is stratified, but there isn't one leader for it.

xandren · 01-08-2005, 03:04 PM

Don't hate me, but I have heard that there is a possibility that the greek orthodox is actually the original church and the catholic church was the split off. This would mean that the greek orthodox is numero uno. I can't say I know this for fact but history has always been written by the more powerful.
And since our history and beliefs system are more grounded in the catholic church or the protestant faith (still is historically from the catholic church) we are taught only that the RCC was the first christian church.
To the winner goes the spoils...as I like to say about history...

martinguerre · 01-08-2005, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tellumFS

But Hindu society isn't an organization. The *office* of Pope is held by (usually) one person. That person is the head of the whole Church. Hindu society is stratified, but there isn't one leader for it.

the brahmin priesthood should count as much as the RCC.

as xandren brings up, there isn't a way to say which is the first and which is the schismatic.

01-08-2005, 03:28 PM

what's so great about an hierarchical organization? surely the future lies in decentralised forms of organisation, like for example the free-market, or natural systems that are around today. Hierarchies are not necessarily good things, and having had one around for a long time isn't necessarily something to brag about. In fact, the rise of such organisations and their imposition of a point of view from a position of 'authority' may be one of the most harmfull things to have befallen the human race. Jesus for one was against the idea.

Note (I'm being a bit trolly here, but only to highlight the extreme opposite side of the argument - if there is one - I think most of the points are valid, but don't know what Jesus might think about it)

01-06-2005, 08:37 PM	#1 (permalink)
keyshawn Psycho	Currently, the longest running hierarchal organization Is the roman catholic church, according to my theology teacher. [He was using this to support the Catholic Church and Christianity] I called BS on that [ < ok, not aloud], and asked him about the Chinese civilization, and he refuted that because of the cultural revolution, switching over to communism, and the various dynasties that they had. [I don't intend on this being a religious flame fest, I'd just appreciate to discuss the topic] So, what is the longest running hierarchal organization, currently ? Thank you for your time, keyshawn __________________ currently reading: currently playing :

01-07-2005, 08:35 AM	#4 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	uhh...the pharisees obviously have christianity beat by a few years. they're a major part of what comes to be known as judiasm. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

01-07-2005, 10:04 AM	#5 (permalink)
tellumFS Tilted	I think what your teacher was referring to is an organization with an acknowledged head, and with "ranks". The Chinese have had signicant breaks (Different dynasties, and more recently a republic and then "Communism"). I'm unsure about the Masons or Pharisees fitting into that category. The Masons, probably, but how long have they been around? As far as the longest running hierarchical organization from my POV? Shoot. Maybe the Roman Catholic Church, but what about the Eastern Orthodox? They follow the Patriarch of Constantinople...but I don't recall where they derive his power from, as I don't think it's Peter like the Catholics. It's an interesting question. I'd wager that your teacher is Catholic Last edited by tellumFS; 01-07-2005 at 10:07 AM..

01-08-2005, 07:50 AM	#8 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	Hindu society is very hierarchical, and it's certainly older than the RCC. (Of course, birth dates for the RCC may vary, but even if you just pick 1 AD, Hindu society is still older.) __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

01-08-2005, 03:04 PM	#10 (permalink)
xandren Upright Location: Indiana	Don't hate me, but I have heard that there is a possibility that the greek orthodox is actually the original church and the catholic church was the split off. This would mean that the greek orthodox is numero uno. I can't say I know this for fact but history has always been written by the more powerful. And since our history and beliefs system are more grounded in the catholic church or the protestant faith (still is historically from the catholic church) we are taught only that the RCC was the first christian church. To the winner goes the spoils...as I like to say about history... __________________ the blower's daughter by Damien Rice i can't take my eyes off of you did I say that I loathe you? did I say that I want to leave it all behind? i can't take my mind off of you my mind 'til I find somebody new

01-06-2005, 09:00 PM	#2 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	Freemasonry predates Christianity, though it does require belief in one god. AFAIK, which god isn't critical, just the acknowledement that you believe in a monotheistic deity. You could say Freemasonry has changed too much to be considered contiguous but the same could be argued about the churches.

01-06-2005, 09:41 PM	#3 (permalink)
hilbert25 Psycho Location: nOvA	I would have thought the masons too. Does zorastrianism have a heirachal organization? It predates christianity by a good bit. How about Hinduism? That seems extremely heirarchal, but is it older? Judaism is definitely older, but most of the Heirarchy is gone now.

01-07-2005, 03:40 PM	#7 (permalink)
Coppertop Getting Medieval on your ass Location: 13th century Europe	Would the Dali Lama count as the head of an organization?

01-08-2005, 03:28 PM	#12 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	what's so great about an hierarchical organization? surely the future lies in decentralised forms of organisation, like for example the free-market, or natural systems that are around today. Hierarchies are not necessarily good things, and having had one around for a long time isn't necessarily something to brag about. In fact, the rise of such organisations and their imposition of a point of view from a position of 'authority' may be one of the most harmfull things to have befallen the human race. Jesus for one was against the idea. Note (I'm being a bit trolly here, but only to highlight the extreme opposite side of the argument - if there is one - I think most of the points are valid, but don't know what Jesus might think about it)