Hosting bit-torrent files... illegal? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Stompy · 10-29-2004, 01:40 PM

If I want to have a site where I host bit torrent files of mp3s, movies, games, etc... is that illegal?

I'm not actually providing the material, just a list of sources.

The way I see it, it would be no different than me creating a site that says "go to alt.binaries.cd.images to get blahblah which was just uploaded!"

Also, what about creating a site with a tutorial on how to download these items from usenet, p2p, etc?

For example... "So you want MP3s? Download one of these p2p applications..." or "So you want a vast amount of unlimited games? Just go here on usenet... use this newsgroup reader and follow these steps..."

Is any of that illegal? (Again, not talking about providing the actual material, just where and how to find them)

the_marq · 10-29-2004, 01:54 PM

The legality of BT as you know is being hugely contested at the moment.

BT itself isn't anymore illegal than FTP or even SMTP and HTTP for that matter, what is illegal is the majority of the content being shared via BT.

Now since you are talking about hosting the trackers, that is a little more involved that just saying "go here and download the illegal content." The tracker itself is a "key" if you will to the illegal content. Sort of like handing a guy a rock to smash a window at Blockbuster to steal movies.

"Hey I just gave him the rock, I didn't smash the window or supply any copyright material (assuming the rock is open source

).

Maybe my analogy sucks, but my point is that to the best of my understanding; yes, hosting BT trackers to copyright content is illegal. I'd recommend to take a peak at the forums over at Zeropaid.com for more info: http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/

Stompy · 10-29-2004, 05:28 PM

How do sites like suprnova.org stay afloat?

Are they operating offshore or something?

Slavakion · 10-29-2004, 06:40 PM

"Trackers" are the servers that host the torrent files

Torrents are legal (or at least really light grey) because they're just text files that act as pointers to a dynamic list of IPs sharing the file. To kinda go with the_marq's analogy, it's like a map that leads you to a street corner. There are usually people on the street corner, and they can tell you how to get to the Blockbuster (which has a large ple of rocks and a busted alarm system).

Websites everywhere that ban objectionable content (including mp3 files) allow torrents. Except zeropaid...

Okay, just to contradict myself, I'll say that torrent files might not be 100% legal, but so much more legal than other p2p stuff. If your comp was investigated and they found torrents but no warez, I doubt anything would happen.

Sites like suprnova can survive because of torrents' relative legality.

JaySpencer · 10-29-2004, 06:58 PM

Be careful depending on where you are, depending on the country you reside in, or state in the US, the abilities for potential enforcement can vary. Giving explicit directions on how to do anything illegal or anything that leads to illegal activities can be a grey area. Use common sense to try to protect yourself, perhaps being as simple as disclaimers that acknowledge that while this stuff can be done, that you neither encourage or condone it, and then toe that line.

If you really are in doubt, consult an attorney. They may charge you a fee, but the advice the give may be well worth it, if it keeps you out of legal trouble or jail itself.

robbdn · 10-31-2004, 10:50 PM

I think one of the most valuable things that no one has said is this:

You are hosting torrents for illegal material... somebody sees this from any law enforcement agency you are going to get pegged as a potential target whether torrents are illegal or not... if you have any illegal material at the time you are investigated, you will get involved with the legal system. Period. You may or may not be found guilty of a crime, but you will still have plenty to deal with that you'd rather not deal with.

My advice? Steer clear of torrents and stick to newsgroups... much harder to trace!

bendsley · 11-01-2004, 09:03 AM

If you'll notice that when you go to www.suprnova.org, you are actually pulling information from dynamic sites, not off of the suprnova.org server itself (not always). They do this to handle the load for one, and legal reasons for another I'm sure.

Suprnova.org was registered through the company, Domains By Proxy. Anonimity anyone?

KnifeMissile · 11-01-2004, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_marq

The legality of BT as you know is being hugely contested at the moment.

In what manner is bit torrent's legality contested? As far as I know, it's just as legal as HTTP, so if you know something I don't, please share!
Thanks...

ratbastid · 11-09-2004, 07:34 PM

It's not accurate to say that the Tracker is what hosts the torrent file. The Tracker acts like a traffic cop, hooking up individual BitTorrent clients machines with each other to exchange fragments of the files.

For me, the question of actual legality isn't nearly as important as the appearance of legality. I don't want to do anything that would have the feds interested in even investigating me. If you don't mind them checking you out--and running the risk that you'll have to prove your own innocence--then let 'er rip.

Stompy · 11-10-2004, 08:56 AM

Well, what I originally wanted to do was one (or both) of the following:

A.

Have a website that's a tutorial of sorts on how (and where) to download material like music, movies, and games.

For example, a usenet page that has links to post monitoring sites, how to download and group posts from usenet, how to use PARs, newsgroup readers, etc... maybe some referral links to some awesome newsgroup providers.

Another page on how you can burn/copy DVDs and games, maybe a referral page to netflix and gamefly, etc

Another page on how to bypass copy-protection on CDs.

Maybe some referral links to particular hardware like mod-chips, DVD burners, etc.

B.

A site with torrents that would be organized similar to suprnova.

From reading the posts, B seems out of the question, but A... I'm merely providing info on HOW to do something. I could make a site on how to grow marijuana or how to make a homemade gun and I don't think they'd be illegal (they might, I dunno, I'm not a lawyer).

As for why I'm doing this... I'm a fan of controversy, other than that, no particular reason. I'm not looking to profit from this or anything. If anything, I'll be testing the grey areas and the patience of others in the processes all while being protected by (hopefully) the first amendment.

Slavakion · 11-10-2004, 03:19 PM

Well, A isn't illegal as far as I know. As long as you put in some disclaimer about how you don't support illegal activities, you should be fine. Unless you directly link to something illegal. That might be a problem. And no matter what, you may end up with negative attention if you do A.

iccky · 11-10-2004, 07:52 PM

As I understand it, the only reason programs like Kaaza were ruled legal is because they could be used for legitimate purposes, even though their primary use was illegal. In the same way, a VCR is legal even though it can be used for illegal activities because it also has legitimate uses.

Thus bittorrent itself, and bittorrent clients are legal, because even though their primary use is illegal, they can be used for legal things.

However, site hosting torrents for copyrighted material would seem to be in trouble. A torrent to a Britney Spears song has no legitimate purposel; it can only be used for commiting copyright infringment (not that Stompy would host a Britney Spears song

).

To go with the rock analogy, passing out rocks outside of Blockbuster is like writing and distributing a bit torrent client. It's cool because even if the obvious use is illegal, it could be used for legitimate things. On the other hand hosting a torrent is like passing out the code for blockbuster's alarm system, which I imagine would get you charged as an accessory to the crime.

j0hnb · 11-13-2004, 07:14 PM

bittorrent by it's self isn't illegal, it's just the content that most people are seeding though it is illegal...

gar1976 · 11-14-2004, 02:31 PM

From the law passed in the US, it is illegal to upload content, but not illegal to download it. Some news articles get the distinction right, but since most media is owned or owns music/video somewhere along the conglomeration line, why would they bother letting that little fact out?

And since you do have a right to free speech, I'd guess this should be fine. I'm no lawyer though, so my advice is worth what you pay for it.

10-29-2004, 01:40 PM	#1 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	Hosting bit-torrent files... illegal? If I want to have a site where I host bit torrent files of mp3s, movies, games, etc... is that illegal? I'm not actually providing the material, just a list of sources. The way I see it, it would be no different than me creating a site that says "go to alt.binaries.cd.images to get blahblah which was just uploaded!" Also, what about creating a site with a tutorial on how to download these items from usenet, p2p, etc? For example... "So you want MP3s? Download one of these p2p applications..." or "So you want a vast amount of unlimited games? Just go here on usenet... use this newsgroup reader and follow these steps..." Is any of that illegal? (Again, not talking about providing the actual material, just where and how to find them) __________________ I love lamp.

10-29-2004, 01:54 PM	#2 (permalink)
the_marq All hail the Mountain King Location: Black Mesa	The legality of BT as you know is being hugely contested at the moment. BT itself isn't anymore illegal than FTP or even SMTP and HTTP for that matter, what is illegal is the majority of the content being shared via BT. Now since you are talking about hosting the trackers, that is a little more involved that just saying "go here and download the illegal content." The tracker itself is a "key" if you will to the illegal content. Sort of like handing a guy a rock to smash a window at Blockbuster to steal movies. "Hey I just gave him the rock, I didn't smash the window or supply any copyright material (assuming the rock is open source). Maybe my analogy sucks, but my point is that to the best of my understanding; yes, hosting BT trackers to copyright content is illegal. I'd recommend to take a peak at the forums over at Zeropaid.com for more info: http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/ __________________ The Truth: Johnny Cash could have kicked Bruce Lee's ass if he wanted to. #3 in a series

10-29-2004, 05:28 PM	#3 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	How do sites like suprnova.org stay afloat? Are they operating offshore or something? __________________ I love lamp.

11-01-2004, 09:03 AM	#7 (permalink)
bendsley Professional Loafer Location: texas	If you'll notice that when you go to www.suprnova.org, you are actually pulling information from dynamic sites, not off of the suprnova.org server itself (not always). They do this to handle the load for one, and legal reasons for another I'm sure. Suprnova.org was registered through the company, Domains By Proxy. Anonimity anyone? __________________ "You hear the one about the fella who died, went to the pearly gates? St. Peter let him in. Sees a guy in a suit making a closing argument. Says, "Who's that?" St. Peter says, "Oh, that's God. Thinks he's Denny Crane."

11-10-2004, 08:56 AM	#10 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	Well, what I originally wanted to do was one (or both) of the following: A. Have a website that's a tutorial of sorts on how (and where) to download material like music, movies, and games. For example, a usenet page that has links to post monitoring sites, how to download and group posts from usenet, how to use PARs, newsgroup readers, etc... maybe some referral links to some awesome newsgroup providers. Another page on how you can burn/copy DVDs and games, maybe a referral page to netflix and gamefly, etc Another page on how to bypass copy-protection on CDs. Maybe some referral links to particular hardware like mod-chips, DVD burners, etc. B. A site with torrents that would be organized similar to suprnova. From reading the posts, B seems out of the question, but A... I'm merely providing info on HOW to do something. I could make a site on how to grow marijuana or how to make a homemade gun and I don't think they'd be illegal (they might, I dunno, I'm not a lawyer). As for why I'm doing this... I'm a fan of controversy, other than that, no particular reason. I'm not looking to profit from this or anything. If anything, I'll be testing the grey areas and the patience of others in the processes all while being protected by (hopefully) the first amendment. __________________ I love lamp.

10-29-2004, 06:40 PM	#4 (permalink)
Slavakion Mjollnir Incarnate Location: Lost in thought	"Trackers" are the servers that host the torrent files Torrents are legal (or at least really light grey) because they're just text files that act as pointers to a dynamic list of IPs sharing the file. To kinda go with the_marq's analogy, it's like a map that leads you to a street corner. There are usually people on the street corner, and they can tell you how to get to the Blockbuster (which has a large ple of rocks and a busted alarm system). Websites everywhere that ban objectionable content (including mp3 files) allow torrents. Except zeropaid... Okay, just to contradict myself, I'll say that torrent files might not be 100% legal, but so much more legal than other p2p stuff. If your comp was investigated and they found torrents but no warez, I doubt anything would happen. Sites like suprnova can survive because of torrents' relative legality.

10-29-2004, 06:58 PM	#5 (permalink)
JaySpencer Tilted	Be careful depending on where you are, depending on the country you reside in, or state in the US, the abilities for potential enforcement can vary. Giving explicit directions on how to do anything illegal or anything that leads to illegal activities can be a grey area. Use common sense to try to protect yourself, perhaps being as simple as disclaimers that acknowledge that while this stuff can be done, that you neither encourage or condone it, and then toe that line. If you really are in doubt, consult an attorney. They may charge you a fee, but the advice the give may be well worth it, if it keeps you out of legal trouble or jail itself.

10-31-2004, 10:50 PM	#6 (permalink)
robbdn Crazy	I think one of the most valuable things that no one has said is this: You are hosting torrents for illegal material... somebody sees this from any law enforcement agency you are going to get pegged as a potential target whether torrents are illegal or not... if you have any illegal material at the time you are investigated, you will get involved with the legal system. Period. You may or may not be found guilty of a crime, but you will still have plenty to deal with that you'd rather not deal with. My advice? Steer clear of torrents and stick to newsgroups... much harder to trace!

11-09-2004, 07:34 PM	#9 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	It's not accurate to say that the Tracker is what hosts the torrent file. The Tracker acts like a traffic cop, hooking up individual BitTorrent clients machines with each other to exchange fragments of the files. For me, the question of actual legality isn't nearly as important as the appearance of legality. I don't want to do anything that would have the feds interested in even investigating me. If you don't mind them checking you out--and running the risk that you'll have to prove your own innocence--then let 'er rip.

11-10-2004, 03:19 PM	#11 (permalink)
Slavakion Mjollnir Incarnate Location: Lost in thought	Well, A isn't illegal as far as I know. As long as you put in some disclaimer about how you don't support illegal activities, you should be fine. Unless you directly link to something illegal. That might be a problem. And no matter what, you may end up with negative attention if you do A.

11-10-2004, 07:52 PM	#12 (permalink)
iccky Psycho Location: Princeton, NJ	As I understand it, the only reason programs like Kaaza were ruled legal is because they could be used for legitimate purposes, even though their primary use was illegal. In the same way, a VCR is legal even though it can be used for illegal activities because it also has legitimate uses. Thus bittorrent itself, and bittorrent clients are legal, because even though their primary use is illegal, they can be used for legal things. However, site hosting torrents for copyrighted material would seem to be in trouble. A torrent to a Britney Spears song has no legitimate purposel; it can only be used for commiting copyright infringment (not that Stompy would host a Britney Spears song ). To go with the rock analogy, passing out rocks outside of Blockbuster is like writing and distributing a bit torrent client. It's cool because even if the obvious use is illegal, it could be used for legitimate things. On the other hand hosting a torrent is like passing out the code for blockbuster's alarm system, which I imagine would get you charged as an accessory to the crime. Last edited by iccky; 11-10-2004 at 07:54 PM..

11-13-2004, 07:14 PM	#13 (permalink)
j0hnb Crazy Location: Arnold, MD	bittorrent by it's self isn't illegal, it's just the content that most people are seeding though it is illegal...

11-14-2004, 02:31 PM	#14 (permalink)
gar1976 Custom User Title Location: Lurking. Under the desk.	From the law passed in the US, it is illegal to upload content, but not illegal to download it. Some news articles get the distinction right, but since most media is owned or owns music/video somewhere along the conglomeration line, why would they bother letting that little fact out? And since you do have a right to free speech, I'd guess this should be fine. I'm no lawyer though, so my advice is worth what you pay for it. __________________ Blistex, in regards to crappy games - They made pong look like a story driven RPG with a dynamic campaign.