DerBlitzkrieger

anything you may want to know about how sprinkler systems work, about fire supression methods, clean agent extinguishment, or fire science in general, i am more than willing to diuscuss!

i feel that the fire protection industy is something of a niche market in terms of careers, but i think many people would be more interested in it if they realized just how signifigant fire protection is. plus, we do some pretty cool shit!

as for my credentials...


*i am NOT a registered fire protection engineer. i am what is considered a fire protection engineering technician. basically, i design sprinkler systems, but you learn alot more than that at school.

*i have a pretty competent background in NFPA codes in general, and NFPA 13, 101, 24, 2001, 72, and 70 specifically, but i can access them all for anything that i cant field.

*i am certified by the National Institute for Certification in Engineering Technologies (NICET) as a Level II Fire Sprinkler Designer, and a level one Fire Alarm designer.

I have an AAS in Fire Protection Engineering Technology, and almost three years experience in designing sprinkler systems.

I am OSHA/PinS (partners in safety) certified with over 12 hours of classroom time in regards to safety procedures

I have participated in over 50 fires at the delware tech burn lab, mostly heptane and other flammable liquid pan fires, but also some 1/4 scale room burns, and flashover demonstrations

i have received special training from both Central sprinkler and Reliable sprinkler Companies in regards to their products, and the proper design and installation of their valves and sprinklers.

i have participated in both full scale sprinkler flow tests and UL certification procedures for sprinkler heads at Reliable


one thing i want to clear up right away, is sprinklers in movies. contrary to what you saw on hackers, a test of the sprinkler system involves no water flowing through sprinkler heads. all of the heads in 99.9% of all sprinkler systems are closed, and require a fire to release them. during a sprinkler test, the water flows through an inspectors test drain which has an orifice plate in it that is the same k-factor as the sprinklers in the system. and likewise, contrary to what you saw in die hard, when one sprinkler goes off, IT IS THE ONLY ONE THAT GOES OFF! as i said, the heads in a sprinkler system are closed, until the heat from a fire opens them.

so, what do you guys want to know?

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300,000 Kilometers per second: It's not just a good idea. Its the law.

lordjeebus

Sure,

My room is about 14 by 14 feet and has a couple of sprinklers near the ceiling.

How big would a fire get before the sprinklers can detect the heat and go off? How much water does a standard sprinkler put out per minute?

DerBlitzkrieger

your first question is kind of tricky. it depends on what the fuel source is, and also how high the ceiling is. normally, you would see a sprinkler head activate around the five minute mark, with say a wood fire. it really depends on the rate of heat release of the fuel, like i said.

the other thing to take into consideration is whats called thermal lag. thermal lag happens because the sprinkler head, being a solid object, takes more time to heat up than the air around it. so while you may have ceiling temperatures around 250 degrees or so in a rapidly developing fire, the sprinkler head may only be heated to about 130. now, your standard sprinkler head is designed to "go off" around 155 degrees, but you can get heads for special applications that wont go off till about 600 degrees.

as for your second question, a standard 5.6K sprinkler head, in a light hazard occupancy, say in a room 15' x 15' is designed to discharge about .10 GPM/SQFT. so thats about 22.5 GPM the head is discharging. i would say thats a bare minimum, as the stronger the water supply is, the more flow youre likely to get from the head.

this is, however, much less than say, a fire hose which can discharge as much as 500 GPM into an area.

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300,000 Kilometers per second: It's not just a good idea. Its the law.

skier

how does a sprinkler head open when it is exposed to heat? I had a quick look at one a few days ago and thought maybe it had to do with contraction/expansion of the metal? The sprinkler head was an old design, with a "cookie cutter" shape to spread the water out.

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Kadath

My question would be: Do you work for Tycho Industries? Their Fire Suppression/Sprinkler facilities are around here.
Actually, this question isn't about sprinklers, but being in the industry you might know: Is it a safety requirement that every room in a home have more than one exit? My room has no window and I don't want to burn to death.

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j8ear

Yes. All new construction, of occupied rooms, must have an egress window or exit, for that very purpose of burning to death.

EDIT SORRY: Not more then one...but at least one exit to the outside of the house.

Common places where this does not exist are home owner grade, 'finished' basements. I know of no requirement which mandates an upgrade of a dwelling originally built to code.

Questions about sprinklers. Most new contruction also requires sprinkler systems installations. Is this wise? Is it cost effective? Are there more reasonable precautions that can be taken to prevent needing fire retardation? Should existing single family homes be upgraded to include sprinkler systems?

grateful,

-bear

saltfish

Thank you for your time... ...and I will take my answer off the air..

Generally speaking, are all ceiling sprinklers under pressure? If they are, is there at all a likelyhood that one may malfunction?

If not, how are they designed to function once they have reached sufficient temperature?

Thanks again.

-SF

Kadath

I'm glad my room has the purpose of burning to death?

See, that doesn't apply, then, because this was a house that they portioned into apartments. So it used to be up to code and I guess is thus grandfathered in? Can I get the industry member's opinion as well?

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DerBlitzkrieger

"the cookie cutter shape does indeed spread the water out in an even pattern. its generally known as a deflector.

first of all, there are two different general types of sprinkler heads. those that use a frangible glass bulb as its element, and those that use some type of solder link or lever as the activating element.

the solder links are easy. basically, the solder is just designed to melt at a certain temperature, and when it does, the two pieces of the link fly apart, and water is allowed to come out of the now opened discharge orifice.

glass bulb sprinklers are a tad different. there is a small air bubble suspended inside a proprietary liquid. as the bulb heats up, the air bubble expands, and at a predeterminded temperature, the pressure created by the air bubble causes the bulb to break.

the glass bulbs are only made by one company in the world.

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300,000 Kilometers per second: It's not just a good idea. Its the law.

DerBlitzkrieger

no, i dont work for tyco. i work for a small sprinkler contractor in delaware. we use tyco products almost exclusively, though.

as to the rest of yout question, i dont have my copy of NFPA 101 with me right now. i will have to check it when i go to work tomorrow, and get back to you.

DerBlitzkrieger

yes, generally speaking, all sprinkler heads are under pressure, as long as the system is operating correctly. now, the majority of sprinkler systems are "wet" systems, in that there is water in the piping all the time. other types of systems are "dry," where the water pressure is replaced by air, preaction, and deluge. i wont go into specifics of the last two, but they are basically just specialized types of dry systems without air pressure. you dont see them too often.

anyway, sprinkler heads are rigorously tested by multiple sources. at the factory they are burst tested to 500 PSI. FM approves, and UL lists all sprinkler heads to at least a 175 PSI operating pressure, and some heads are rated to 300 PSI. and then again, the sprinkler contractor is required to pressure test the entire sprinkler system at 200 PSI for two hours before the system is accepted as being "in service"

its rare for a sprinkler head to just fail. im not saying it wont happen, its just not very likely. more often than not, sprinkler heads go off because something hits the glass bulb, be it a forklift truck, or a coat hanger.

the new style glass bulb sprinklers are quite delicate. the bulb itself is only 3mm thick in most instances, and its under pressure on only one axis. there was a story a couple of years ago about a kid who tossed a nickel at a sprinkler head in a department store. he managed to hit the glass bulb, and break it, much to everyones suprise, im sure.

now, getting back to sprinklers failing. tyco in particular has a 10 year warranty on all of thier products. the NFPA requires a representative sampling of sprinkler heads in a building to be removed every 50 years for testing. so like i said, its rare for a sprinkler head to fail and release water.

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300,000 Kilometers per second: It's not just a good idea. Its the law.

CS733t

I already know way too much about this stuff...a buddy of mine works for AFPC, he can't enter a room w/o looking at the ceiling/sprinkler heads.

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saltfish

DerBlitzkrieger,

Thank you for your reply, you've been most informative.

...I'm working on more questions.

-SF

Fearless_Hyena

This is simple and kind of lame, but I've always wondered, seriously

They use Halon protection in a lot of computer rooms and datacenters. They have alarms on them and you're warned to get out (beforehand) if they ever go off. Apparently it will kill you if you're inside when it goes off, because it robs the air of oxygen to put out the fire. The warning signs they have to put on them are pretty serious-sounding.

Now, if you're stuck in the room when one of these things goes off, are you a definitely a goner? Will it kill you instantly? If it's supposed to, has anyone ever survived? Or will it just knock you the f*** out??
If it goes off would you have time to get to the door before it's too late??

lordjeebus

Fascinating stuff!

How did you discover this line of work?

shakran

I can field this one as I used to work for a newspaper. The pressroom had a halon dump fire suppression system. Basically if the fire alarm was tripped automatically (i.e. the detectors detected a fire rather than some dipshit pulling the handle as a prank) the alarms would go off, lights would start flashing, and you had exactly 30 seconds to get out of the main room before the dump. This isn't much margin for error when you consider the fact that the press room was a bit larger than a big wal mart

If you're in a room with a halon or a cardox (uses carbon dioxide to achieve pretty much the same result) dump system and the alarms go off, get out or you will die. Guaranteed. But yeah, you usually have time to get to the door when the alarms go off because of the built-in delay between alarm and dump.

DerBlitzkrieger

kind of. it really depends on what kind of halon youre talking about. there is more than one kind, and they have different uses, and will kill you in different ways.

Halon 1301, which is used for the total flooding systems, is normally seen in concentrations of about 7%. at that concentration, you wont notice any ill effects for about 15 minutes. other types of halon, like halon 1202 are toxic as hell, and will kill you nearly instantly. others, like halon 104 (you will never see this stuff) is not only toxic, but it can cause cancer.

now, keep in mind that the US government used halon 1301 in missle silos, where the men werent allowed to leave, and got no fresh air for a week. of course, once the halon dissipated, the concentration was almost nothing.

for the most part, halon is completely safe, and you would have plenty of time to get out of a room or compartment. also, it is required by code to have an abort switch near the exits in a room or area protected with a 1301 system. this switch is the dead-man type, so once you let up off it, the system will activate. but this keeps false alarms from wasting the VERY expensive halon.

now, the reason halon is so expensive, is because its manufacture has been banned by the montreal protocol. in case you didnt know, the protocol was put in place to halt the production of CFCs, so we dont keep on destroying the ozone layer. of course, as luck would have it, all Halon agents are CFCs! so who cares if the fucking world burns down, as long as we dont lose that ozone layer, am i right?

anyway, halon isnt illegal to use, buy or sell, just make. so there are literally Halon banks that will buy your unused supply of halon gas when you demo a halon system, and they can then sell it to others who prefer to keep using it. eventually, we will run out, but not for a couple of decades.

so now there are products called halon alternatices on the market. the most used of these is called FM-200, and which i have the most experience with. DuPont just recently came out with two other alternative gasses called FE-227 and FE-25, so now that FM-200 has some competition, we should see prices on these systems drop, which is really good news.

when i said this stuff is expensive, im not kidding. i just saw an estimate a sales guy did, and the contract was about $75,000 to protect a 3000 cubic foot data center, with no raised floors! the agent cost nearly HALF the contract price!

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300,000 Kilometers per second: It's not just a good idea. Its the law.

DerBlitzkrieger

its funny, really. i was working at a pizza shop after high school, and one of my co-workers was talking about it. he just sold the program so damn well, that i wanted to try it.

of course, it didnt hurt that i had a $500 scholarship to del tech from winning 3rd place in the high school CAD competition. so i went for the two introductory classes, and was just hooked. i dont know why, but i just love what i do so much. its technical, but involves a lot of finesse and somewhat of an artistic eye. sometimes you have to place the sprinkler heads so they all line up. in complex rooms it takes a little time. but its also as close to engineering as you can get without being a PE. we normally do everything on a system from scratch. calcs, layout, coordination, and sometimes even hazard classification.

plus, its a real niche industry. there arent too many schools that offer the program, and most people who graduate from it end up working for the state, or an insurance company of some sort. very few of my fellow graduates went on to sprinkler design.

its also a very tight knit group. after just my short time in the industry, i allready know most people involved in fire protection in the state of delaware. its also very family oriented. there have been a lot of relatives at the companies ive worked for.

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300,000 Kilometers per second: It's not just a good idea. Its the law.

MSD

In schools with fire alarms, the pull switches have a small glass tube across the switch that will break when it is pulled. Is that just UV dye so that they can spot the kid who set off a false alarm, or does it serve another purpose? If it does do something else, why are half of them missing in schools I went to?

BentNotTwisted

Fascinating stuff, thanks for all the answers DerBlitzkrieger.
Two questions:
First, I took a close up look at a sprinkler head once and it looked like there was a skinny red piece of plastic running vertically from the deflector up into the interior of the sprinkler. Was that one of the glass bulb type heads?
Second, can you dispell some of the myths those of us watching movies have gotten used to. You mentioned one at the start of the thread about only individual sprinkler heads going off instead of all of them at once. When I saw this happen in the movies I assumed Hollywood was accurate (silly me) and figured there was some sort of cascade effect going on where one open head would trigger all the others. Thanks for explaining that one. Any others you can think of would be appreciated. How about the actors making it look so easy to set off a sprinkler system. If I were in a situation where I wanted to set off a system (let's say the guys in the black suits are after me), how hard would it be?
Thanks,
Bent

DerBlitzkrieger

in older non-adressable alarm systems, that is, each individual pull station couldnt be called up on a monitor, the glass rods were there so someone could determine which pull station had been activated. either your school is short on funds, or they upgraded their alarm panel.

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300,000 Kilometers per second: It's not just a good idea. Its the law.

DerBlitzkrieger

yes, that is a glass bulb type sprinkler head.

well, you really wouldnt want to set a sprinkler head off with you underneath of it. what comes out of the head isnt what you or i would call "water." its a black, smelly, staining, foul, and sickening fluid that was at one point in time potable water. this shit will stain your skin, ruin your clothes, and could make you very sick because of the metal sediements, and microbes present in it.

now, if you wanted to set off sprinkler heads, the only way to do it fast would be to simply take a crowbar, or something like that and just start knocking heads out. of course, whoevers following you can just follow the trail of open heads. there really is no way to open every head easily, or at once.

goddfather40

I am an Electical Engineer who designs sprinkler control systems for irrigation...i.e. the sprinkler timer in many people's garages. Can you elaborate on how the electronics on these systems work DerBlitzkrieger?

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DerBlitzkrieger

no, i cant. i design fire sprinkler systems, and know nothing about irrigation type sprinklers, sorry!

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300,000 Kilometers per second: It's not just a good idea. Its the law.

j8ear

I asked the following a while back...

But did not get an answer. Hoping this was just an oversight.

goddfather40

I apologize, let me re-phrase my question, it wasn't very clear. What I probably should ask is "Are there any electronics involved in fire protection sprinkler systems, and, if so, can you describe?"

Thanks

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DerBlitzkrieger

my apologies, i must have missed it.

not all, or even most new construction requires sprinklers, first of all. the NFPA would like sprinklers in all new commercial buildings, but the building codes, like BOCA, and the ICC, recognize that this just isnt possible. so for the most part, any building under 10,000 square feet is exempt from the sprinkler requirements in new construction.

now honestly, i dont think thats wise. without going into other details, if that night club in Rhode Island, the station, has a sprinkler system in it, most of those people wouldnt have died.

perhaps im biased, being in the industry and all, but i cant think of one single time when sprinklers arent wise choice. first of all, they arent really all that expensive in relation to other construction systems, like HVAC or plumbing. they are safe, provide a reasonable assurance of safety to the building occupants, and in some instances allow an architect or construction manager to do more with a building. there is also the related insurance benefits. you get a hefty discount for having a sprinkler system installed in a building. and lets not forget that the cost of a sprinkler system is normally amortized in 10 to 20 years. there is a bill currently in congress that will lower that to 5.

plus, in the case of renovations to existing structures, its not like you have to do everything at once. most fire marshal's are more than happy if a company wants to phase its sprinkler work over the course of a couple of years. this is actually quite common, especially in the case of schools, where you only have the summer break to install the piping. the use of plastic piping products, like CPVC has also drastically reduced the installation time of sprinkler systems in residential, and light hazard occupancies, again making the cost cheaper.

in reality, buildings are getting safer, and more fire resistive. the continuing trend of using metal and concrete is making it cheaper to use, and also safer for all of us. unfortunately, even if the buildings are fire resistive, the things placed inside arent. you have paper, wood furniture, plastics of all sorts, electrical components, etc etc. all that stuff burns. no matter what you do to make a building more "fire safe" the fuel load will always remain a constant. unless you run something like a concrete factory, i guess.

as for residential systems, i think they are a wonderful idea. unfortunately, they are expensive to retrofit, because of the requirements to keep the piping hidden. its much easier to install a sprinkler system in a new home before the drywall has gone up. sadly, many home builders REFUSE to even give people the OPTION of having a sprinkler system installed in their house. they claim that they arent proven, and that they are concerned about the possibility of leaks, but history has shown time and again how life-saving, and if installed by a competent contractor, durable sprinkler systems are.

i think it would be impossible to make people retrofit existing dwellings with sprinklers, and very difficult to require them in new home construction. however, i believe that people should at least be given the option of having one installed.

did i mention that you get a 10% discount off your homeowners insurance when you have one installed?

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300,000 Kilometers per second: It's not just a good idea. Its the law.

j8ear

Thank you kindly, DerBlitzkrieger.

In two counties in Maryland (that I know of, Prince George's and Montgomery), however they ARE REQUIRED in all new residential construction. As are french drains.

In fact depending on the complexity of a renovation to an existing residential structure, a retrofit can also be mandated.

Thanks Again. Researching this I also discovered that these counties also offer a significant tax credit for a sprinkler retrofit when not mandated.

-bear

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Fearless_Hyena

DerBlitzkrieger thanks for your answer to my Halon question! I missed it for a few days since the search function's disabled...interesting stuff. Thanks!

gonadman

I moved into a new house in Jan 2000. It had a sprinkler system. After about 6 months, one of the heads started leaking. The contractor replaced it but it started leaking again about a week later They came out and replaced it again.

It started leaking agaain last March. The contractor could not be reached because- surprise- he is in bankruptcy court. We started calling around and had a really tough time finding someone to fix it. One guy came out and drained the system into a garbage can and said he needed to replace all the heads for ~$5000. When I asked him to just replace the one head, he said he needed to get a tool and never came back. Many others never returned my call or said they would come but never showed up. Finally, last week, someone said they would replace the head for ~$300, but would need to cut out a piece of my ceiling and I'd have to get a drywall person to repair it.

Am I being ripped off? I would try to replace it myself but I don't know how to pressurize the system. Someone told me no one wants to do it because they don't want to accept the liability of someone else's poor construction. Is that true? Also someone in the business suggested that some workers might overpressurize the system to cause more leaks and make more money. Have you ever seen this?

Hope you can answer some of these questios. I'm just so frustrated at this ongoing problem with no solution in sight and no one in the industry seems interested in doing the repair work. Meanwhile I'm stuck with a leaky system and a trashcan full of slimy water!

Thanks

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kazoo

The simple answer is no. Wet, dry, and deluge systems can be installed without interface and still be functional. These systems utilize a water driven bell, or water gong, located on an exterior wall. A sign will usually advise anyone who hears the gong to notify the fire department.

In reality, when water flows, owing to the fusing of a head, someone should be notified. In addition, valves are provided for system maintenance, and must not be left in a closed position, or the system will not function as designed. Flow switches, pressure switches, and tamper switches achieve these supervisory purposes. The various switches interface with a control unit which also contains a digital communicator to deliver data to the central station via telephone lines or other communication route.

Most authorities having jurisdiction require sprinkler systems to be monitored by a central station. The station will, upon receipt of a flow, tamper, or trouble code, take appropriate action by advising the fire department, building maintenance personnel and/or the alarm company representatives.

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kazoo

Since it is a relatively new house, contact your local municipality. Someone from licenses and inspection or the fire marshal will have acceptance data on your dwelling.

Part of the key to this is determining the type of heads installed. Some heads have been subject to recalls, and the manufacturer will pay for replacement at no cost to you. Star and Central brands are involved, and you can obtain further information by visiting the Consumer Product Safety Commission website for further information.

Good luck.

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