When to use "that" and "which" - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Grouper · 08-26-2003, 07:11 AM

Drives me crazy. I tend to use the word "which" relatively often in my writing, i.e. I drove a car which turned out to be stolen. Whenever I spell check my work, Word wants to either add a comma before "which" or replace "which" with the word "that."

What is the rule of thumb here?

Kadath · 08-26-2003, 10:59 AM

That is the rule. "Which" involves using a comma. Decide if you want to pause before continuing. Examples: "The murder weapon, which belonged to Anna, was found in a dumpster behind the A&P." "The gun that was used in the murder belonged to Anna and was found in the dumpster behind the A&P."

axolotls · 08-26-2003, 07:29 PM

I concur with Kadath. That's what I was taught a long time ago. Although, there are some exceptions but I can't remember any of them.

Fremen · 08-27-2003, 01:00 AM

Ahhh, this is easier than math.

jfm · 08-27-2003, 01:23 AM

Kadath

quote:
That is the rule.

Do you mean 'which is the rule'..........

SaltPork · 08-28-2003, 09:40 AM

No, jfm, Kadath meant, "That is the rule.", which illustrates the rule.

BentNotTwisted · 08-28-2003, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wrkime
No, jfm, Kadath meant, "That is the rule.", which illustrates the rule.

Now that's funny!

Ratman · 08-31-2003, 04:42 PM

What you are asking about are examples of relative clauses. There are two basic types: defining and non defining. (In this explanation, I sometimes use "RC" to abbreviate "relative clause.)

A relative clause is used to provide more information about a noun.

A defining relative clause modifies the object or subject of the sentence. One may use a relative pronoun optionally when the clause modifies the subject, but the relative pronoun is required when modifying the object. The defining relative clause gives information essential to identifying what is being talked about. Example:

I want to eat at a restaurant. (no RC)
I want to eat at a restaurant which serves steak. (RC defines the type of restaurant)

Notice that there is no comma used. Also, the RC modifies the object, so the relative pronoun (which) must be retained. "That" may almost always used as a relative pronoun, interchangeable with "which," "who," etc, with no change in meaning. When the RC defines the subject, the relative pronoun may be dropped, also with no change in meaning. Example:

The man who is drinking all the Chivas is my boss.
The man that is drinking all the Chivas is my boss.
The man drinking all the Chivas is my boss.

It also makes no difference if the RC is placed at the beginning or end of the sentence:

My boss is the man drinking all the Chivas.

Non-defining relative clauses also provide more information about the subject or object. The differences are that the non-defining clauses' information is not essential to the identification of what is being talked about, it is always separated from the rest of the sentence by commas, parenthesis or dashes, and the relative pronoun (or adverb) must be retained. Example:

My brother, who is a stockbroker, is getting married next month.

If we drop the first comma, this becomes a defining relative clause, because it tells which of my brother is getting married.

This is by no means an exhaustive explanation of relative clauses. Please add.

08-26-2003, 07:11 AM	#1 (permalink)
Grouper Crazy	When to use "that" and "which" Drives me crazy. I tend to use the word "which" relatively often in my writing, i.e. I drove a car which turned out to be stolen. Whenever I spell check my work, Word wants to either add a comma before "which" or replace "which" with the word "that." What is the rule of thumb here?

08-26-2003, 10:59 AM	#2 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	That is the rule. "Which" involves using a comma. Decide if you want to pause before continuing. Examples: "The murder weapon, which belonged to Anna, was found in a dumpster behind the A&P." "The gun that was used in the murder belonged to Anna and was found in the dumpster behind the A&P." __________________ it's quiet in here

08-27-2003, 01:00 AM	#4 (permalink)
Fremen With a mustache, the cool factor would be too much Location: left side of my couch, East Texas	Ahhh, this is easier than math. __________________ Google

08-27-2003, 01:23 AM	#5 (permalink)
jfm Upright Location: UK, 10,721 miles from where I want to be!	Kadath quote: That is the rule. Do you mean 'which is the rule'.......... __________________ I am, therefore I think.

08-28-2003, 09:40 AM	#6 (permalink)
SaltPork Everything's better with bacon Location: In your local grocer's freezer.	No, jfm, Kadath meant, "That is the rule.", which illustrates the rule. __________________ It was like that when I got here....I swear.

08-26-2003, 07:29 PM	#3 (permalink)
axolotls Tilted	I concur with Kadath. That's what I was taught a long time ago. Although, there are some exceptions but I can't remember any of them.

08-31-2003, 04:42 PM	#8 (permalink)
Ratman Addict Location: Somewhere... Across the sea...	What you are asking about are examples of relative clauses. There are two basic types: defining and non defining. (In this explanation, I sometimes use "RC" to abbreviate "relative clause.) A relative clause is used to provide more information about a noun. A defining relative clause modifies the object or subject of the sentence. One may use a relative pronoun optionally when the clause modifies the subject, but the relative pronoun is required when modifying the object. The defining relative clause gives information essential to identifying what is being talked about. Example: I want to eat at a restaurant. (no RC) I want to eat at a restaurant which serves steak. (RC defines the type of restaurant) Notice that there is no comma used. Also, the RC modifies the object, so the relative pronoun (which) must be retained. "That" may almost always used as a relative pronoun, interchangeable with "which," "who," etc, with no change in meaning. When the RC defines the subject, the relative pronoun may be dropped, also with no change in meaning. Example: The man who is drinking all the Chivas is my boss. The man that is drinking all the Chivas is my boss. The man drinking all the Chivas is my boss. It also makes no difference if the RC is placed at the beginning or end of the sentence: My boss is the man drinking all the Chivas. Non-defining relative clauses also provide more information about the subject or object. The differences are that the non-defining clauses' information is not essential to the identification of what is being talked about, it is always separated from the rest of the sentence by commas, parenthesis or dashes, and the relative pronoun (or adverb) must be retained. Example: My brother, who is a stockbroker, is getting married next month. If we drop the first comma, this becomes a defining relative clause, because it tells which of my brother is getting married. This is by no means an exhaustive explanation of relative clauses. Please add. __________________ The difference between theory and reality is that in theory there is no difference. "God made man, but he used the monkey to do it." DEVO