straw man - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Mael · 08-02-2003, 04:13 PM

hey,
so i know the term "straw man." you know, it's used a lot in arguments about evolution/creation and religion in general. i understand that meaning of it, and the proper usage, but i can't seem to put a definition of it in words.

could some of you define the term "straw man" for me, and possibly say it in a few different ways?

thanks

lady · 08-02-2003, 04:24 PM

From what I understand it's when you pretend someone said something they didn't and then attack or denounce them for saying "it"...

http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/straw.htm

TIO · 08-02-2003, 10:01 PM

A 'straw man' is an undefensible position. Basically, you throw out a straw man, watch people agree that it's a bad thing, and then say their entire argument is flawed.

Perhaps an example is in order: Say we're arguing about the merits of nuclear power. I say "Do you want another Chernobyl?" Obviously, you don't, and you say so. Then I say "Well then, all nuclear power is bad!"
I have just committed a straw man logical fallacy.

A fairly complete list of fallacies: http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism....html#strawman

Mephisto2 · 08-02-2003, 11:04 PM

3 entries found for straw man.
straw man
n.
A person who is set up as cover or a front for a questionable enterprise.
An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated.
A bundle of straw made into the likeness of a man and often used as a scarecrow.

www.dictionary.com is your friend.

Mr Mephisto

FastShark85 · 08-03-2003, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto

A person who is set up as cover or a front for a questionable enterprise.

Mr Mephisto

That's the definition I've always been familiar with.

collide · 08-03-2003, 06:35 PM

From wikipedia:

Quote:

Original use
In the sport of rodeo, the straw man is a scarecrow-like figure, made of a shirt and pants stuffed with straw, and, traditionally, propped up with a broom. The straw man is placed in the arena during bullriding events as a safety measure. It is intended to distract the bull after the rider has dismounted (or has been thrown), with the idea that the bull will attack the straw man rather than attack its former rider. Two so-called matadors--people dressed in bright colors whose job it is to distract the bull if the rider is injured--are in the ring as well and are usually far more effective than the straw man.

Rhetorical use
The term straw man has come to be used metaphorically to describe ideas or things that are meant to be torn apart. Many people who use the term do not realize that its roots are in the sport of rodeo.

In one example of metaphorical use, the straw man rhetorical technique is the practice of refuting weaker arguments than your opponents actually offer. The terminology is based on a combat metaphor--instead of fighting with your real opponent, you set up a straw man and proceed to knock it down. It is not a logical fallacy to disprove a weak argument; rather the fallacy is declaring one argument's conclusion wrong because of flaws in another argument.

One can set up a straw man in several different ways:

1. Present one of your opponent's weaker arguments, refute it, and pretend that you've refuted all of their arguments.
2. Present your opponent's argument in weakened form, refute it, and pretend that you've refuted the original.
3. Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute their arguments, and pretend that you've refuted every argument for that position.

For example, one might argue "Charles Darwin believed in Lamarckian inheritance of acquired characteristics, which has now been discredited. Therefore, Darwinian evolution by natural selection did not occur." This is a fallacy because the Lamarckian ideas were only a small part of the overall theory; the fact that he was wrong about them does not affect the theory as a whole. Some logic textbooks define the straw man fallacy only as a misrepresented argument. It is now common, however, to use the term to refer to all three tactics. Straw man is also a type of media manipulation.

Often, the strawman set up is a weaker argument because it makes a wider or stronger claim. For example:

Fred: "Poverty is one factor that causes crime".
Alice: "You're wrong to claim that all poor people are criminals. My friend Jack is poor, but he is not a criminal!".

A "straw man proposal" is a simple draft proposal intended to generate discussion of its disadvantages, and to provoke the generation of new, better, proposals. As the document is revised, it may be given other edition names such as "ironman", etc.

Mael · 08-03-2003, 07:04 PM

thanks guys, these will work great!

TIO · 08-03-2003, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Often, the strawman set up is a weaker argument because it makes a wider or stronger claim. For example:

Fred: "Poverty is one factor that causes crime".
Alice: "You're wrong to claim that all poor people are criminals. My friend Jack is poor, but he is not a criminal!".

That's not a straw man. That's a hasty generalisation, another type of fallacy altogether. Looks like it's time to go and edit Wiki!

obediah · 08-04-2003, 05:59 AM

Aw straw men, if my fiancee had a dime for everytime she got an argument started with me over on of these.

Well actually I guess it's a reverse strawman. A BBS she reads has a gender-issues forum with some ass hole that posts the most-exagerated sexist stuff, like for example men should have 100% control over deciding how to resolve pregnancies they create (i.e. abortion/adoption/raising, etc...)

I just about always listen to her repeat this guys crap, and it's usally a valid concern taken to a ridiculous extreme. Whenever I try to bring this up, I have to fight against her POV and this jerk off's POV and usually end up trying to crawl into the oven.

Now I just leave the room whenever she starts reading the guys stuff.

catback · 08-08-2003, 02:35 PM

Pi = 4*(inverse tan 1) ... Be sure to use radians...Aside from that all I know is Apple Pi is good

sstennes · 08-08-2003, 05:05 PM

I have always assumed that it meant... Throw out an idea that is clearly understood by everyone to be a bad idea, and then brainstorm it to find out if there is really a good idea. I see it as a way to challenge a group to find out if what they believe is wrong really is.

crackpot · 08-09-2003, 01:47 AM

Hey, hey, stop making me learn shit, I might actually have to donate to the TFP.
No but thanks for the general info. Pretty info-mative!

CSflim · 08-09-2003, 02:34 PM

and in other news....

Quote:

Originally posted by catback
Pi = 4*(inverse tan 1) ... Be sure to use radians...Aside from that all I know is Apple Pi is good

nulltype · 08-10-2003, 12:06 AM

http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/

I like that list.

Fibrosa · 08-10-2003, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mael
hey,
so i know the term "straw man." you know, it's used a lot in arguments about evolution/creation and religion in general. i understand that meaning of it, and the proper usage, but i can't seem to put a definition of it in words.

could some of you define the term "straw man" for me, and possibly say it in a few different ways?

thanks

Other's have defined it, so I figured I'd take a crack at saying why it's used in creation/evolution debates.

What generally happens is a creationist (generally, but not always) will have a certain (and wrong) view of evolution in there head, and they will argue against that version as opposed to the real version.
For example:

Creationist says: "Evolution is impossible because a pig won't turn into an ape".

That's a strawman because that's not what evolution *is*.

08-02-2003, 04:13 PM	#1 (permalink)
Mael Banned Location: The Hell I Created.	straw man hey, so i know the term "straw man." you know, it's used a lot in arguments about evolution/creation and religion in general. i understand that meaning of it, and the proper usage, but i can't seem to put a definition of it in words. could some of you define the term "straw man" for me, and possibly say it in a few different ways? thanks

08-02-2003, 10:01 PM	#3 (permalink)
TIO Addict Location: The Land Down Under	A 'straw man' is an undefensible position. Basically, you throw out a straw man, watch people agree that it's a bad thing, and then say their entire argument is flawed. Perhaps an example is in order: Say we're arguing about the merits of nuclear power. I say "Do you want another Chernobyl?" Obviously, you don't, and you say so. Then I say "Well then, all nuclear power is bad!" I have just committed a straw man logical fallacy. A fairly complete list of fallacies: http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism....html#strawman __________________ Strewth

08-08-2003, 05:05 PM	#11 (permalink)
sstennes Upright	I have always assumed that it meant... Throw out an idea that is clearly understood by everyone to be a bad idea, and then brainstorm it to find out if there is really a good idea. I see it as a way to challenge a group to find out if what they believe is wrong really is. __________________ There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

08-10-2003, 12:06 AM	#14 (permalink)
nulltype Crazy	http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/ I like that list. __________________ Gib mir mein Destillat / Gib mir mein Alltagstot / Gib mir mein Gnadenbrot / zur Ewigkeit

08-02-2003, 04:24 PM	#2 (permalink)
lady Addict Location: Vancouver, BC	From what I understand it's when you pretend someone said something they didn't and then attack or denounce them for saying "it"... http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/straw.htm

08-02-2003, 11:04 PM	#4 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	3 entries found for straw man. straw man n. A person who is set up as cover or a front for a questionable enterprise. An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated. A bundle of straw made into the likeness of a man and often used as a scarecrow. www.dictionary.com is your friend. Mr Mephisto

08-03-2003, 07:04 PM	#7 (permalink)
Mael Banned Location: The Hell I Created.	thanks guys, these will work great!

08-04-2003, 05:59 AM	#9 (permalink)
obediah Crazy	Aw straw men, if my fiancee had a dime for everytime she got an argument started with me over on of these. Well actually I guess it's a reverse strawman. A BBS she reads has a gender-issues forum with some ass hole that posts the most-exagerated sexist stuff, like for example men should have 100% control over deciding how to resolve pregnancies they create (i.e. abortion/adoption/raising, etc...) I just about always listen to her repeat this guys crap, and it's usally a valid concern taken to a ridiculous extreme. Whenever I try to bring this up, I have to fight against her POV and this jerk off's POV and usually end up trying to crawl into the oven. Now I just leave the room whenever she starts reading the guys stuff.

08-08-2003, 02:35 PM	#10 (permalink)
catback Psycho Location: North America	Pi = 4*(inverse tan 1) ... Be sure to use radians...Aside from that all I know is Apple Pi is good

08-09-2003, 01:47 AM	#12 (permalink)
crackpot Junkie Location: Montreal	Hey, hey, stop making me learn shit, I might actually have to donate to the TFP. No but thanks for the general info. Pretty info-mative!