Derwood

I plan on constructing built-ins around my fireplace later thisyear and have a question about cabinets.

Most "how-to" books tell you to dowel/biscuit join the face piece together. If i'm building this out of MDF, however, wouldn't it be stronger to just cut it out as one piece? I realize that it's probably not an efficient use of materials, but i'm trying to avoid having to buy/rent/borrow any more tools than necessary.

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Bossnass

Built-in speakers? or built in cabinets with doors, or built in cabinets without doors? I'm not sure what you mean by the face piece.

I can understand the MDF for paintability and homogenity, but it is nasty to work with (dust is terrbile, hard on tools, difficult to join), so unless it is for a acoustic reason, I don't know why MDF would be the matieral of choice.

Derwood

Built-in cabinets. You build the structure like a box, but the face piece goes on front to define the cabinet/drawer openings:



I was considering MDF for two reasons. One, i plan on painting the unit, not staining it. Two, cost. Have you seen what a 4x8 sheet of carpentry quality plywood costs these days? (not to mention how much pine 1-by it would take to build shelves on an 18' wall...)

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Bossnass

What are the doors/drawer fronts going to be made of?

You may be able to make the face frame joints with a pocket hole jig, but again the mdf doesn't work great with most fasteners. I would also suppose that it would be very difficult to get clean inside corners with any material, but in particular with a fiberboard.

You may also have to consider self weight and sag if you're going to be building big (covering a 18' wall) with mdf.

Derwood

i've only just designed the unit and haven't priced things out. My experience in the past with MDF is that since the particles are so fine in it (unlike particle board or other rougher materials) that it makes very clean lines. It does dent easily, however.

Here is my current plan:

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Bossnass

I looks to me that only the bottom right three cabinets have doors. In which case I would say forget about face frames, make them euro-front style, and put hardwood moulding on the edges of all the exposed front edges of the shelves.

In my limted experience with MDF (mostly using it for countertops that were then covered in laminate, but I did make one set of shelves) I found that it could take a nice finish, but as often as I got a nice clean edge, I managed faint saw marks. It also seemed mostly unsandable, so if it isn't machined clean, it will be hard to finish. I think I understand your intention is to cut out the face frame from a solid piece, which would require cutting out a closed interior square/rectange, in which case I still think it would be very challenging to get clean inside cuts.

Derwood

so you'd reccomend making that face frame out of 1x3 instead then? I was hoping to avoid having to buy bar clamps or a biscuit joiner, but if that's what's best...

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cj2112

Why do you have to have a face frame? Why not go with a frameless European style?

Derwood

meaning full doors that are hinged to the cabinet's sides?

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cj2112

that's exactly what I mean.

Derwood

wasn't the look i was going for, but i'll consider it

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cj2112

I think you'll find that this will simplify things greatly, and solve your problem. I would suggest using 1" MDF for the shelves (to help eliminate sagging) but otherwise MDF will work fine.

I do commercial cabinetry and have for probably 10 years. We did the Cesar Chavez Elementary school in San Francisco with MDF cabinets sprayed with clear acrylic lacquer. Yes sanding all of our machining and saw marks out of the panels for the cabinets was tedious work, but it can be done without too much trouble. MDF is a great choice for paint grade material, and for paint grade cabinet doors it is far superior to plywood. MDF doesn't warp as easily (provided it is kept in a climate controlled environment) and takes paint much better.

Good luck in your project, feel free to ask questions, and post pictures!

Bossnass

Yeah, thats what I thought of too. I've been so overexposed to oak panel euro doors that I almost hate them. But euro style is the most easy and cleanest looking method, because the face frame work is gone and the hinges make it so much easier to hang the doors straight.

I've worked in a cabinet shop and built my share of cabinets, rail and stile doors, and dovetailed drawers, but I am by no means an expert. Personally, I wouldn't use MDF at all, but the whole project is entierly under your perogrative.

I do think, however, that trying to cut out the face frames as a solid piece would be a pain in the butt with questionable final result.

To reiterate my above post, I would make the three doored cabinets euro-style, make the rest out of painted MDF, but on all the front edges I would tack on hardwood moulding. I've had some nice results using small 'chair rail' moulding (stuff designed to prevent chair backs from hitting walls) as the front edge of shelves. It runs a buck or two per foot, but miters nicely and provides a classy professional look.

Derwood

i'm confused Boss. you say don't use M"DF, then say use it for the rest?

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Bossnass

I personally don't like mdf, but I agree that it is cheaper and paintable. It wouldn't be my first choice for face frames or for large spans (unless you up the thickness to 1" as suggested by cj2112). But if you plan on having painted shelves and don't want the cost of plywood or the look of melamine, than MDF is the solution. That said, I've seen ugly and beat up MDF shelves, so I recommed sticking a strip of solid wood on the front edges of the sides and shelves for function and aestetic. I've seen clear finished MDF shelves with a strip of maple on the front edge that looked great. Also, when you buy your paint, count on using way more than the coverage on the label predicts. MDF is a sponge.

If you do choose MDF, I think it would be tough to follow through with the 'one solid piece face frame'. And it would be more challanging than other matierals to assemble a face frame from pieces because MDF fibers and fasteners don't work great together. A pocket hole jig would allow for concealed screws on the backside and would be cheaper and faster than a biscuit joiner, but you run the risk of stripping screwholes and less than perfect joints.

Perhaps using wood and ply for the face frame assemblies and the doors, and using the same wood type moulding for the shelf edges? You could have your face frames that you could (more easily) assemble via pocket holes, you can make carcasses and all the shelves out of economical MDF, and you can have a nice 'cabniety' look.

As a whole, I would say that mitersaw + brad nailer + 1 forstner bit for the euro hinges is a cheaper and more useful investment and easier process than large clamps + biscuit joiner, assuming tablesaw in either case.

Derwood

thanks. i'll ask the wifey if she'd mind euro-style cabinets.

fyi, the widest shelf in my plan is 3' 0"

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cj2112

Just to clarify....the shelves and any unssuported spans over 30" long are really the only parts that I think need to be 1" thick, the idea of a hardwood front edge on your shelves is also a wise move, even just an 1/8" thick piece of poplar for edging is going to afford you much more protection from dents.

Derwood

so you're saying build it all from MDF and then trim it all out in hard wood, even if i'm painting it?

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Derwood

just as a reference, here is a photo of the wall in question:

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cj2112

I'd really only trim the front edge of the shelves out in hardwood, and that's only if I expected to be adding and removing heavy items frequently to and from these shelves, it just adds a measure of protection to the edges. i'd use a closed grain, inexpensive hardwood such as poplar, although maple, birch or chrry would work. keep in mind your just going to be painting it so it really doesn't matter what wood you use as long as it isn't something open grained.

/edit If your planning on storing those books in these cabinets, DEFINITELY go with 1" thick material for the shelves, you'll be glad you did.

Derwood

Right. The CD shelves (upper right of the cabinets) can probably be 3/4", but I do have a lot of art books, etc. that are pretty heavy (most of my 30" shelves in those cheap bookcases are bowed).

Thanks for all the tips. I'll probably be pricing the materials out here soon and will check back with more questions.

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Derwood

Alright, I priced out MDF and 1x12 pine (plus some hardware, etc.) and estimate materials for this project at around $225-$250. Does that sound right?

Plus I'm going with Euro style cabinet doors. What should they be made of? MDF? Plywood?

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Bossnass

I don't know your materials estimate, but 3/4 MDF was 26.99 for a 4x8 sheet (exactly half the price of the birch that we ended up with) near the end of December. I seem to think that 1x10 3/4 solid pine was about $2 a foot around that time too. Those numbers are in CAN$ and were at Edmonton, Alberta. I suspect our MDF would be more expensive and our pine would be cheaper than north eastish US.

Blum 95 degree hinges used to run about 8.25 a pair when purchased bulk, about 9.00 for inset ones. You'll also need to buy a forstner bit, but I think you can pick up a cheap one (35mm) for 5-7 bucks.

I think that any doors made out of mdf will get dinged up, but you could cap all the edges with the pine. A 3/4 door is going to be heavy, so it depends on the final size and weight if a MDF door is going to be feasable and functional. I also don't know if you want to bring plywood into the project or not, just for the doors.

You plan to rip strips of pine for the front shelf edges?

Derwood

My pricing was based on doing all the uprights with pine and the shelves and cabinets with MDF. I estimated 4 sheets of MDF (at $21.88/sheet) and about 60' of 1x12 pine (at $1.56/foot).

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Bossnass

So I guess your pine is cheaper too. And here I thought that the access I had to BC's softwood lumber was working in my favour.

Your price estimate certainly doesn't seem out of line, but there are alot of factors to consider that only you are privy to.

Assuming 8' ceilings, then estimating, doors should be 32x18"ish, so they shouldn't be too heavy using mdf and euro hinges. Just be careful that the holes for the hinges don't get stripped. I've almost broken my spirit a couple times when I've screwed up nice wood or nice plywood, but I've never been more frustrated with both pine and mdf. I made a knotty pine full-wood kitchen once, so I both love and hate pine.

I'm sure youre competent or you wouldn't be taking on this project, so I don't mean to second guess your plans. I'm just some guy on a messageboard and not an expert. I'm not sure of the logic behind using pine for the uprights. Easier joints? Are the shelves going to be adjustable? I could be misreading your intention of 'uprights'.

Derwood

yes, adjustable shelves (for now). I thought you had suggested earlier that the "box" for the shelving units be pine but the atual shelves be MDF?

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cj2112

I would strongly recommend against using plywood for doors, and would suggest MDF. Plywood doors warp MDF is much more stable. As a matter of fact, if I was going to paint the unit, I'd build the whole thing out of MDF. I also suggest Blum hinges, I'd go with the press in type, you can use a smooth face hammer to put them in, and you'll have a lot less problems with stripping out screws.

Derwood

all MDF would certainly be easier, though my table saw is super cheap and may get destroyed by all the rips i'd have to make.

Would a 16 guage finishing nailer (and glue) be enough to assemble everything?

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Bossnass

I'm not sure where you got the impression that I thought you should use pine for the box, but it was not what I meant. There is no reason to use pine for the carcasses. In fact, most the time building out of solid stock is way more hassle than its worth.

I suggested that mdf would be a hassle for face frames. I also suggested that you trim out the mdf with actual wood for function and appearance, whereas cj2112 posted that only the front edge of the shelves could use reinforcment.

Plywood could warp, with the extra dry heat from the fireplace in particular. If everything else is mdf, go for mdf doors. But I still like plywood.

I personally don't think that a brad nailer and glue will hold together mdf very well. As long as everything is built-in and the heads will be concealed, I would just go pick up a bulk bag of 2.5" coarse-threaded zinc deck screws. I'd rabbet and dado where possible. I also tend to overbuild and over complicate.

The nailer and glue would be ideal for reinforcing front edge wood though.

Derwood

i wish i had a pneumatic stapler, but no dice...

i'm guessing that using screws would require 100% predrilling/countersinking right?

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Derwood

My next question would be this: If I build the right-hand side of the unit in chunks and then assemble it "on-site", which of these two options would make most sense?



or

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cj2112

If you go with screws and glue, predilling is going to be a must, the mdf will want to split otherwise. I too like the rabbetted and dado construction, but as Bossnass says it is much more complex. keep in mind that no matter what type of construction method you use, the glue is what is going to hold it together.
As far as building it in sections, the shorter the horizontal spans are, the less you have to worry about sagging, so the three tall units are the way I'd go.

Bossnass

I confirm the need for pilot holes.

Depending on the grade of MDF, you may need special glue. Some mdf requires waterproof glue.

My first instinct is to agree with the vertical modules. The shear strength and self weight of the MDF make me wonder though. I'd hate to try and carry a full-height cabinet, both due to the weight and the potential for material failure. I'd be tempted to make three vertical sections fireplace height and one horizontal cd storage area.

Derwood

I could simply build it in a bunch of small modules as well. The "thick" shelf that runs along the top of the fireplace (between the books and CD's) is basically a full wall extension of the mantle. It would certainly make sense to build anything above that separately than anything below it.

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Derwood

it's a year later and I'm actually going to start building this thing. I'll keep you all updated. There was a long stretch where I didn't have the time, started a new job, etc. I also had to procure some tools (I've bought a table saw and compressor/nail gun set and will be getting a compound mitre saw soon). We've also decided to redo the entire room at once, including new paint, carpet, etc., so we had to save up for that.

My new construction idea involves building 2x4 frames between the vertical sections of shelves. It's tough to explain without a drawing, so I will post photos as I build.

I've also ditched the idea of building my own cabinets and have bought three 30" oak kitchen cabinets instead.

Derwood

Finally, some progress:



How it looked when we moved in



How it looked when I started the build



New paint, new carpet, cabinets installed. We're on our way

Daniel_

All the pictures are rexed.

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Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
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Derwood

huh, weird. maybe picasa doesn't like hotlinking?

here is the whole album