The World of Warcraft Thread

[Strange Famous]

I am playing my first forsaken character now my night elf is at level 85, and I already know enough about the half-orc hare brained Warchief (believe his mother was an ogre?)

At level 12 I reported to a location at Silverpine and witnessed this so called "warchief" call Sylvanas a bitch and insult her outrageously. I tried to strike him with a shadow bolt bot got "invalid target" error. The craven loutish half orc than ran away after I targeted him with the chicken dance emote.

I certainly will ensure that I slay Arthas. I might look up tonight on one of the wow guides on how you get to him and kill him. I hope that I can keep his "frostbane" sword or whatever so I can pass it to someone with enchanting skill so they can disenchant it - I feel this that casting aside the sword that conquered his soul like a piece of trash will be a fitting epitaph for this coward.

Originally Posted by YaWhateva

Oh you mean in trying to save the world from being torn in half? Yeah...you know absolutely nothing of the lore and are just making ridiculous shit up in your own mind. I'm a fan of Sylvanas' story and character but the nonsense you are spewing is insane. If you have any interest in not sounding like ignorant, maybe you should read the lore more or maybe some of the novels (I haven't read the novels but I know the plot for most of what happens).

Also, yeah you go find that quest to kill Arthas. See how that works out for you.

Baraka, the only thing I will say, though, is that Sylvanas does seem to have a lot of her own intentions that aren't necessarily of interest to the Horde.

Here is a really good read up about Sylvanas' lore in Cataclysm (lots of spoilers):

Know Your Lore: Sylvanas Windrunner, part 1
Know Your Lore: Sylvanas Windrunner, part 2

[Strange Famous]

What do you think of THIS then??

Around the time of the Third War, Greymane instructed Archmage Arugal, a Dalaran wizard loyal to Gilneas, to summon feral worgen to protect Gilneas from the Scourge threat. The plan backfired, and the worgen curse would eventually run rampant among the Gilnean population. In the time between the Third War and the War against the Lich King, the number of those afflicted with the worgen curse had grown and were now attacking Gilneas City.

from wowpedia.com

It is Greymane the Wicked who is the betrayer of the people of Gilneas, not Sylvanas!

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Sylvanas isn't defending her people here, she's following orders from the Horde. She's engaging in conquest because the Horde wants a fucking port. It has nothing to do with the Forsaken directly.

But this still has no bearing on the actions of Sylvanas. Though it could be argued that it in the end helped the Gilneans thwart the evil onslaught.

So she chooses the path of evil. I agree with you, but it doesn't help your case.

This is what the Gilneans are doing. The Forsaken are not at risk in this conquest. They are the aggressors, and they are fighting merely for redemption and to conquer land for the Horde.

But she's not defending her people, she's using them to fulfill the desires of the Horde. She's doing it for power, not in defense. Since when is an invasion a defense? The Gilnean's were probably the least threatening people to the Forsaken in their isolationism. The Horde became opportunists when they saw their wall had fallen.

Are you saying that the Gilneans are merely lambs for the slaughter for the survival of the Forsaken?

It would be like saying it's okay for Iraq to conquer Kuwait to ensure their continued security in the Middle East. I don't buy it.

The Forsaken are the aggressors via the Horde. Gilneas are the ones defending themselves. Which side would you have supported when Germany invaded Poland?

Evil is as evil does.

[Baraka_Guru]

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

What do you think of THIS then??

I already brought this up with you. I already addressed this. I said myself that if Greymane is guilty of anything it's not helping Lordaeorn fight the Scourge, which likely lead him to make the decision to release the worgen.

When he did release the worgen, he had hoped it would save his people, but it backfired. This is something that weighs heavily on him morally.

The biggest mistake was his decision to isolate his people. He didn't betray them; he made a mistake trying to save them and now he shoulders that burden. That's not betrayal; that's taking responsibility as any noble leader would.

It is Greymane the Wicked who is the betrayer of the people of Gilneas, not Sylvanas!

Are you suggesting that Greymane's decision makes it okay for Sylvanas to conquer Gilneas?

Sylvanas didn't invade Gilneas to liberate it from "the wicked" Greymane. She invaded it to subjugate if not destroy the Gilnean people. She's after their land in the name of the Horde.

[Strange Famous]

It is clear though that Sylvanas does not do ANYTHING simply as a blindly obedient member of the horde. She takes orders from nobody and her alliance with the orcs is only temporary for as long as it is in her own interests,

She has attacked Gilneas as a necessary measure to secure her people's safety and future. Nearly every other group in WOW believes that the undead do not have the right to exist. Even the horde allies are revolted by them.

If the worst thing you can accuse her of is leading an aggressive war, she is no better or worse than most of the other leaders. Powers are constantly shifting, aggressions is everywhere... Sylvanas struck before she was struck against. The methods she used maybe ruthless, but hardly comapre to those of Greymane the Wicked. She offered free will and choice to the undead. When you start to play it is made clear again and again that you have free will, you and no one else if forced to join. Greymane the wicked turned his people into wild beasts because of his own stubborn pride and refusal to work with the alliance.

[Baraka_Guru]

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

It is clear though that Sylvanas does not do ANYTHING simply as a blindly obedient member of the horde. She takes orders from nobody and her alliance with the orcs is only temporary for as long as it is in her own interests,

This makes her subserviant to the Horde and at the mercy of their whims, apparently. She will gain nothing directly in her vile and merciless actions against the Gilneans.

She has attacked Gilneas as a necessary measure to secure her people's safety and future. Nearly every other group in WOW believes that the undead do not have the right to exist. Even the horde allies are revolted by them.

Okay, she didn't merely attack Gilneas, she unleashed an toxic onslaught that does no less than reveal her pitiless nature and dark heart. She made many innocent Gileans suffer horrendous ends, all the while destroying swaths of land in ways not seen since the Scourge.

You suggest the Forsaken have a right to exist. Pray tell, are the Gilneans afforded such a right as well? Or are there mere lambs to the slaughter for what seems to be Silvanas' insatiable quest for power?

If the worst thing you can accuse her of is leading an aggressive war, she is no better or worse than most of the other leaders. Powers are constantly shifting, aggressions is everywhere... Sylvanas struck before she was struck against.

Gilneas was no threat. At all.

The methods she used maybe ruthless, but hardly comapre to those of Greymane the Wicked. She offered free will and choice to the undead. When you start to play it is made clear again and again that you have free will, you and no one else if forced to join. Greymane the wicked turned his people into wild beasts because of his own stubborn pride and refusal to work with the alliance.

You fail to understand the history of Gilneas and the nature of the curse. Is this why you seem to be an apologist for an evil aggressor who deserves no less than the hangman's noose or the executioner's axe?

[Strange Famous]

Now I know you are just winding me up.

The Forsaken "subserviant" to the Horde? "at the mercy of their whims"?

Thats laughable to be honest

Their are three powers in the Horde - The Forsaken, the Orcs, and the Blood Elves. The Goblins are nothing but a bunch of spivs and swindlers who would run a mile from a fight with anyone.

If it came to it, Sylvanas could triumph in single combat against Garrosh the Brainless and Thrall the Half Orc on her own, and if it came to a war within the Horde the Blood Elves (who naturally are enemies of the Orcs) would fight with Sylvanas.

Do you really supposed the powerful magic and skill of the Blood Elves, combined with the near limitless resources of the Forsaken and under the leadership of a military genius (even Sylvanas' worst enemies acknowledge she is this) could not triumph over the Orcs and a few talking cows and drug addled trolls?

_

You know for yourself this is true: Sylvanas does NOTHING at the whim of others and is subserviant to NOBODY. Every act - whether it is morally right or wrong - is in the interests of her people and their protection.

I repeat, her people are threatened at every corner. The Gilneans may not have started this war, but their attitude to the undead is as negative as anyone else. As the Traitor Greymane the Wicked had already through his pride made half of his nation into wild beasts that roamed the area attacking anyone and everyone, it was NECESSARY for Sylvanas to occupy the lands of Gilneas to protect her people from the ravages of the werewolves which you admit that Greymane the Wicked had created.

[Shauk]

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Now I know you are just winding me up.

The Forsaken "subserviant" to the Horde? "at the mercy of their whims"?

Thats laughable to be honest

Their are three powers in the Horde - The Forsaken, the Orcs, and the Blood Elves. The Goblins are nothing but a bunch of spivs and swindlers who would run a mile from a fight with anyone.

If it came to it, Sylvanas could triumph in single combat against Garrosh the Brainless and Thrall the Half Orc on her own, and if it came to a war within the Horde the Blood Elves (who naturally are enemies of the Orcs) would fight with Sylvanas.

Do you really supposed the powerful magic and skill of the Blood Elves, combined with the near limitless resources of the Forsaken and under the leadership of a military genius (even Sylvanas' worst enemies acknowledge she is this) could not triumph over the Orcs and a few talking cows and drug addled trolls?

_

You know for yourself this is true: Sylvanas does NOTHING at the whim of others and is subserviant to NOBODY. Every act - whether it is morally right or wrong - is in the interests of her people and their protection.

I repeat, her people are threatened at every corner. The Gilneans may not have started this war, but their attitude to the undead is as negative as anyone else. As the Traitor Greymane the Wicked had already through his pride made half of his nation into wild beasts that roamed the area attacking anyone and everyone, it was NECESSARY for Sylvanas to occupy the lands of Gilneas to protect her people from the ravages of the werewolves which you admit that Greymane the Wicked had created.

Uh, Thrall is way way way more powerful than you give him credit for.

It hasn't happened yet but mark my words, He will be the future dragon aspect of earth to replace death wing.

[Strange Famous]

Thrall might be powerful in terms of his earth magic - from his half ogre side I admit he has an intrinsic and unthinking intuation for nature, but there is no way he is more powerful than the blood elves best magicians.

As a warrior and a general, he isnt in the same league as Sylvanas - thats my point.

[Baraka_Guru]

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

You know for yourself this is true: Sylvanas does NOTHING at the whim of others and is subserviant to NOBODY. Every act - whether it is morally right or wrong - is in the interests of her people and their protection.

If this were true, then why is she doing the Horde's bidding? She has no use for Gilneas from the perspective of the Forsaken. Her belligerence against Gilneas brought on the help of the Alliance. So if anything, Sylvanas betrayed her own people by proving to the Alliance that the Forsaken don't deserve to be left alone and are a threat to Azeroth---all on the orders of the Horde. Why do the bidding of the Horde at the detriment of her own people?

She carries out the orders of the war chief because she is a selfish, power-hungry tyrant who will stop at nothing to exact revenge for her personal grievances. She hopes to gain favour within the Horde as a way to increase her own power. Whether this means bringing torment down upon innocent Gilneans or risking the very existence of her people matters not to her. To her, the Forsaken are mere pawns and she is their queen. They are expendable to her. She has a one-track mind, and she's only concerned about looking after number one. She is probably the most selfish leader amongst the Horde, especially considering her fragile (i.e. selfish) allegiance to them.

She will betray anyone to fulfill her own personal desires. She is fuelled by rage and is consumed by self-centeredness.

I repeat, her people are threatened at every corner. The Gilneans may not have started this war, but their attitude to the undead is as negative as anyone else. As the Traitor Greymane the Wicked had already through his pride made half of his nation into wild beasts that roamed the area attacking anyone and everyone, it was NECESSARY for Sylvanas to occupy the lands of Gilneas to protect her people from the ravages of the werewolves which you admit that Greymane the Wicked had created.

As I said: if she were worried about the survival of her people, she wouldn't have given cause for the Alliance to move against her. Sure, the Alliance already had a negative view of the Forsaken, but all Sylvanas has done is proven it true. It is Sylvanas's fault that the Alliance now views the Forsaken as an active and belligerent threat that seeks to destroy the Gilneans.

Her missteps are far more disastrous than anything Greymane did. At least it's clear that Greymane cares for his people. I think Sylvanas is no longer capable of caring for anyone but herself and her quest for vengeance against anyone or anything.

She is filled with blind hatred.

[YaWhateva]

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Thrall might be powerful in terms of his earth magic - from his half ogre side I admit he has an intrinsic and unthinking intuation for nature, but there is no way he is more powerful than the blood elves best magicians.

As a warrior and a general, he isnt in the same league as Sylvanas - thats my point.

You need to stop making things up if you want anyone to take you seriously. Learn some lore if you are interested in people not dismissing your BS. Thrall is leaps and bounds more powerful than Sylvanas. And really? the Blood Elves? Just stop.

[Reese]

Attacking Gilneas isn't what makes Sylvannas evil though. There is a war going on after all. What makes her evil is that she's using the new plague in her attack against South Shore and attempted to use it against Gilneas after it's use was banned during the Wrathgate.

I still don't get how the Worgen are accepted into the alliance so easily though. I mean they separated from the alliance years ago and the alliance just lets them rejoin knowing they are cursed? Why wouldn't they let the Forsaken re-join when they broke the Lich King's hold on them.

[Strange Famous]

What do you think I am making up?

The fact that he is half ogre? I dont need to read the "lore" to make this judgment.

Just look at the big lummux. He is about twice the size of other orcs. About the size of a small ogre. His ogre blood also explains his affinity with nature magoc.

However, only his own personal mental weakness can explain his decision to resign as war chief to serve under the night elves in the earthen ring.

[Frosstbyte]

Seriously SF, it's time for you to have a long, long night reading wowpedia. It's cool you get into the story of the game so much, but it's a little frustrating for you to repeatedly and deliberately contort lore to suit your perceptions of the game world.

Thrall is currently the most powerful shaman on the entire planet. His channeling at the Maelstrom is, along with Muln and Nubundo, literally keeping the world from being destroyed. It's also fairly clear he's going to be granted powers beyond anything any prior mortal has achieved when he becomes the next aspect of earth later in this expansion (the only other mortals who could claim to have gained even a shred of this much power are Arthas and Ner'zhul, both of whom paid for it with their souls). Finally, he is larger than PCs because of game design reasons, not lore reasons. His father was Durotan and his mother was Draka, both full blooded, normal orcs. He's a bit of a Mary Sue for Chris Metzen, sure, but I guess you're allowed to do that when you design lore as epic in scope as Warcraft's.

Diverging from the other stuff about Sylvannas, I'm extremely interested to see what the consequences of her "death" and subsequent "resurrection" at the hands of the val'kyrs will be. I get the distinct feeling we're not dealing with the same Sylvannas anymore, which is probably a good thing, since that one's storyline ended rather pointed with the end of Arthas.

[Reese]

You think Sylvannas is going to get killed?

I know the current mechanics of stuff in the game won't support it, but I'd like to see the forsaken split from the horde to form a 3rd faction. A quest chain would allow any player to swap to that faction, becoming undead versions of their race. Undead Tauren, Undead Orcs, Undead Gnomes... etc... Like I said though, mechanics like battlegrounds just don't support it. Oh well, It's just wishful thinking.

[Strange Famous]

First - Muln Earthfury is the leader of the Earthen Ring, not Thrall

Second,Thrall's people have committed far worse atrocities than the Forsaken. The orcs are a savage race who delight in war and plunder.

Third, You must consider that the "lore" is like any other narrative, in that it is influanced by those who are a part of it. Perhaps what we know about Thrall is sometimes what he wants to portray. To me it seems very likely that Thrall's is half ogre rather than "he just happens to be 3 foot taller than any other orc, because its a game and thats the way it is"

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

First - Muln Earthfury is the leader of the Earthen Ring, not Thrall

Second,Thrall's people have committed far worse atrocities than the Forsaken. The orcs are a savage race who delight in war and plunder.

Third, You must consider that the "lore" is like any other narrative, in that it is influanced by those who are a part of it. Perhaps what we know about Thrall is sometimes what he wants to portray. To me it seems very likely that Thrall's is half ogre rather than "he just happens to be 3 foot taller than any other orc, because its a game and thats the way it is"

Ummm, now you must be talking out of your ass because that's not congruent with anything. Thrall isn't the author of the lore. Characters don't get to have a say in what their history is. That would be like saying Darth Vader has influence on how he comes off in the books, movies, and the rest of the canon.

The backstory is something meticulously written and maintained because it has a long standing history that predates WoW.

[Baraka_Guru]

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Second,Thrall's people have committed far worse atrocities than the Forsaken. The orcs are a savage race who delight in war and plunder.

Tu quoque?

Third, You must consider that the "lore" is like any other narrative, in that it is influanced by those who are a part of it. Perhaps what we know about Thrall is sometimes what he wants to portray. To me it seems very likely that Thrall's is half ogre rather than "he just happens to be 3 foot taller than any other orc, because its a game and thats the way it is"

Actually, I have noticed this with many of the epic/heroic (or whatever you want to call them) NPCs in the game. They are much bigger, even the humans. It's not that the humans are actually half-giants, but it's that---in the cartoony style of the game---they have a "big" stature in terms of their power and "epicness."

If Thrall were born of half-ogre, it would be blatantly obvious and Durotan wouldn't be considered his father.

Thrall might be powerful in terms of his earth magic - from his half ogre side I admit he has an intrinsic and unthinking intuation for nature, but there is no way he is more powerful than the blood elves best magicians.

You also seem to be unfamiliar with the ogre magi, who are ogres with much higher intelligence than is average for their race. These ogres tend to have blue skin and usually favour sorcery over other types of magic (such as shamanism).

Again, go to the lore. Your experiences based on what you see onscreen is misinterpreting what's actually true.

For example, you know that Sylvanas is an expert at demon magic, right? Don't you find necromancy and mind control a wee bit unbecoming?

[Strange Famous]

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Ummm, now you must be talking out of your ass because that's not congruent with anything. Thrall isn't the author of the lore. Characters don't get to have a say in what their history is. That would be like saying Darth Vader has influence on how he comes off in the books, movies, and the rest of the canon.

The backstory is something meticulously written and maintained because it has a long standing history that predates WoW.

Well, anyone can say "its just fiction" - but I wouldnt get any pleasure out of the game if I just ran around killing 10 of a certain type of monster over and over without getting into the story.

You would admit that even fiction can mis-lead us, give us false clues, try to hide sudden twists in the plot, and even ignore its own history and retrospectively re-write things done in the past.

The current "lore" is not definitive, it is flexible.

Whether Thrall is really a half orc or not - I interpret him as such. He and his brainless horde of hooligans will not stand against the united forces of the blood elves and the forsaken if there is a civil war within the horde, this I am pretty sure of.

I like the idea mentioned by someone else of a three way war, but I guess it would be a big change. It is possible that Sylvanas withdraws and the Forsaken, and undead becomes a class in its own right rather than a race, which Sylvanas is in some way the figurehead or demi-god of.

Those who think that Sylvanas is the the lackey of Garrosh the brainless and his motley coalition can please themselves - but I suspect they will be in for a rude surprise!

[YaWhateva]

Oh, so you're saying you don't care what the actual facts of the story are, you will just believe what you choose to believe. Seems like that is a recurring thing with you.

[Strange Famous]

I am saying that I believe what I have seen from my own experience of the game, not what someone wrote up on wowpedia or whatever.

[Baraka_Guru]

Yeah, and Zeus is a hobbit.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

I am saying that I believe what I have seen from my own experience of the game, not what someone wrote up on wowpedia or whatever.

Then you better work on your reading comprehension because everything in the game works according to Warcraft canon. Note that I did not say lore, because it is not up for debate. It is pretty much written in stone and it is consulted before they draft any changes or introduce new story.

They go to great lengths to make sure that the books and history all work together properly.

For example:

YouTube - Blizzcon 2010 - The Red Shirt Guy

YouTube - Blizzcon 2010 - The Red Shirt Guy

[Zeraph]

Yeah, also though warcraft cannon gets retcon'd a lot. Though they're finally doing a better job now. I remember when BC first came out and people were like "WTF spaceships and vampires?!"

[Cynthetiq]

Chris Metzen has emphasized the importance of ensuring continuity within the Warcraft universe:

We're taking the process of building a world seriously and it wasn't just churned out. It had a strong sense of continuity. We've always tried to do that with our ancillary products like the D&D line and our novels. We are kind of painstakingly anal, about making sure all the details add up, that continuity is held to be sacred. So that no matter in what medium you are experiencing Warcraft it all feels like a contiguous experience.

SF, so that you understand it's not something that someone just pulls out of their ass, this is Chris Metzen, the Vice President of Creative Development at Blizzard Entertainment saying it.

So you can read and interpret what you what to believe, but what you comprehend and understand ultimately has to line up with the canon.

[Frosstbyte]

Originally Posted by Reese

You think Sylvannas is going to get killed?

Sylvannas has already been "killed" in Cataclysm. Or something. It's not entirely clear what happens to her, but this ensues in a cut scene type event during a quest chain in Silverpine Forest:

EDIT: I originally quoted a bunch of stuff, but it's easier to just link to the Know Your Lore article on Sylvannas from WoW Insider: Know Your Lore: Sylvanas Windrunner, part 2, page 2.

SF, if you want to interpret the game that way, I guess that's cool, but there's nothing any of us can say about it and no way for us to discuss it with you. The quests in the game say you're wrong. The books and comics say you're wrong. The cutscenes and old games all say you're wrong. We're not trying to dog on your interpretation so much as trying to explain to you that the stuff you're talking about isn't up for interpretation.

As someone else said, there's no way to interpret that Frodo isn't a hobbit. He is and that fact is crucial to his character in the Lord of the Rings. Similarly, there's no way to interpret Thrall's race. He is clearly and undeniably an orc and it is fundamental to his character that he is one. Important NPCs are often larger than PCs and less important NPCs to make them stand out and look cooler. That's the *only* reason he is larger than an orc in game.

So, as I said, if you want to "interpret" WoW in your own way, that's fine, but there's no way for anyone else to respond to it, because the story we're working with isn't yours. There ARE a lot of places of ambiguity in WoW lore if you want to learn it, but Thrall's origin story isn't one of them.

[Reese]

ah shit, You're right. I guess I need to do more than skim the wiki entry. You'd think "Shortly afterwards she is killed by Godfrey" would be in bold or something.

[Strange Famous]

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Yeah, and Zeus is a hobbit.

I never liked Zeus much and I never understand why he would be king of the Olympians rather than Hades, who was a stronger warrior and in his way a fairer (if harder) leader.

_

And nothing I have said:

1 - That Greymane the Wicked is a betrayer of his people who unwittingly infected them with the werewolf curse due to his arrogane and pride

2 - That Garrosh is hare brained, little more than a common lout

3 -That Thrall is probably half ogre and has lied about his past because he could not have been war chief if he was known not to be pure orc. Why did he stand down to be second in command in the Earthen Ring - was it really cowardice (even if he is a powerful shaman he is hardy the only one), or did a supporter of Garrosh (who Thrall mistrusts and sees as too aggressive) blackmail him?

4 - That Sylvanas is a mighty warrior, who has tremendous willpower (she broke the Lich King's control over her), is a brilliant general, is utterly ruthless and is not and never willingly will be subserviant to any power in the WOW universe. If the Orcs think that she is following their orders now to appease them or because she is frightened of a few orc commando's stationed in the undercity, they are bigger fools that Garrosh the brainless.

Slyvanas knows that the Alliance consider the undercity as their territory, she knows she will come under attack - what she does now is influanced by that, not the will of the orcs.
_

I dont ask people to ignore what they call canon or lore - merely to use their own intelligence and observation to interpret it in a logical way rather than to accept it uncritically.

[Zeraph]

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

I never liked Zeus much and I never understand why he would be king of the Olympians rather than Hades, who was a stronger warrior and in his way a fairer (if harder) leader.

Zeus was always more powerful than Hades, or at the very least he was equal. Otherwise they would not have had to share Persephine, Hades would have just killed Zeus if he could, but he can't in any of the lore.

Zeus being much wiser lets Hade have the underworld to serve his purpose. Keeping in check souls while Zeus kicks back and has sex a lot.

[Reese]

Thrall just isn't half orge. Look at the half ogres in the game and there is abolutely no resemblance. Almost every major NPC in the game is 50% taller than players, including Jaina and Sylvannas. His backstory is set in stone, it's verified and witnessed by too many characters to be fake. To dispute it is akin to being a holocaust denier or a birther.( The claim is ludicrous.

[Strange Famous]

Originally Posted by Zeraph

Zeus was always more powerful than Hades, or at the very least he was equal. Otherwise they would not have had to share Persephine, Hades would have just killed Zeus if he could, but he can't in any of the lore.

Zeus being much wiser lets Hade have the underworld to serve his purpose. Keeping in check souls while Zeus kicks back and has sex a lot.

I think Zeus maybe had stronger powers marginally, and was more cunning, but Hades was more ferocious and would have been more deadly in open war. Maybe the key was that Zeus had more balls or front... and assumed the leadership, and Hades who had a dark and gloomy personality did not challenge him because Zeus took care not to goad him but at the same time acted like he deserved to be king.

---------- Post added at 09:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Reese

Thrall just isn't half orge. Look at the half ogres in the game and there is abolutely no resemblance. Almost every major NPC in the game is 50% taller than players, including Jaina and Sylvannas. His backstory is set in stone, it's verified and witnessed by too many characters to be fake. To dispute it is akin to being a holocaust denier or a birther.( The claim is ludicrous.

I think comparing having a contrary view to the majority about a video game to holocaust denial is a bit of a stretch!

I dont remember Jaina being especially tall, she was shorter than me (a night elf female) when I did a mission for her.

I still have the ring Jaina gave me for doing a quest at lvl 20 or so in my pack as I liked her, so I definitely remember her character.

Sylvanas, as a high elf, is taller than most of the (human) forsaken anyway.

And I have read enough of the lore to know a few things about Thrall the Half Orc... did you know for example that he was once captured and almost killed by a couple of murlocs? Thats good going for the most powerful shaman in the world!

[Baraka_Guru]

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Sylvanas, as a high elf, is taller than most of the (human) forsaken anyway.

She's not a high-elf, she's a banshee turned dark ranger.

High elves are imbued with the Holy Light. Sylvanas is undead.

[Zeraph]

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

She's not a high-elf, she's a banshee turned dark ranger.

High elves are imbued with the Holy Light. Sylvanas is undead.

Dark Ranger. That needs to be the new class

[Strange Famous]

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

She's not a high-elf, she's a banshee turned dark ranger.

High elves are imbued with the Holy Light. Sylvanas is undead.

She was formerly a high elf and has the same physical body now... which makes her taller than the human forsaken... thats the point I was making.

As for the holy light - she doesnt walk in the light certainly, but no one who is created in pure light is ever completely lost to it. The fact that the Lich King could not conquer her will cannot be solely down to her own emotional force.

I think there is a really possibility that the Forsaken are expelled from the Horde because Sylvanas does something that provokes an attack from the Orcs... and the "Undead" become a class rather than a race... they would be less boring than the Death Knights who are utterly pointless if Arthas has gone. The other option is Slyvanas as the Lich Queen I suppose.

Garrosh the Brainless asks her what is the difference between her and the Lich King.... but I would find this a quite boring plot.

_

And ask yourself this - if Sylvanas is the completely amoral lose canon and butcher that you portray her as, why are the Forsaken so fanatically loyal to her (as opposed to the human king, who has almost as many human enemies as followers).

If Thrall the half orc is such a great guy, why was there so much force behind those who wanted Garrosh the Brainless to take over?

[YaWhateva]

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

She was formerly a high elf and has the same physical body now... which makes her taller than the human forsaken... thats the point I was making.

As for the holy light - she doesnt walk in the light certainly, but no one who is created in pure light is ever completely lost to it. The fact that the Lich King could not conquer her will cannot be solely down to her own emotional force.

I think there is a really possibility that the Forsaken are expelled from the Horde because Sylvanas does something that provokes an attack from the Orcs... and the "Undead" become a class rather than a race... they would be less boring than the Death Knights who are utterly pointless if Arthas has gone. The other option is Slyvanas as the Lich Queen I suppose.

Garrosh the Brainless asks her what is the difference between her and the Lich King.... but I would find this a quite boring plot.

_

And ask yourself this - if Sylvanas is the completely amoral lose canon and butcher that you portray her as, why are the Forsaken so fanatically loyal to her (as opposed to the human king, who has almost as many human enemies as followers).

If Thrall the half orc is such a great guy, why was there so much force behind those who wanted Garrosh the Brainless to take over?

There is already a new Lich King, so it's fairly obvious you don't know the lore you speak of. I've never seen anybody be so willingly ignorant in so much of what they say as you. This thread is completely in line with most everything you post on this site and it's growing increasingly tiresome.

Garrosh was chosen by Thrall to succeed him in his absence...

[Cynthetiq]

Maybe if he made it into ICC and saw Highlord Tirion Fordring at the beginning and he's like 2.5 times the size of a Night Elf, SF may say that he's 1/2 Ogre or even Gronn.

[YaWhateva]

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Maybe if he made it into ICC and saw Highlord Tirion Fordring at the beginning and he's like 2.5 times the size of a Night Elf, SF may say that he's 1/2 Ogre or even Gronn.

Tirion Fordring the Half Ogre. It has a nice ring to it.

[Baraka_Guru]

Originally Posted by YaWhateva

Tirion Fordring the Half Ogre. It has a nice ring to it.

No way! At that height, he's got to be a pureblood ogre!

[YaWhateva]

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

No way! At that height, he's got to be a pureblood ogre!

How about Malfurion Stormrage? obviously a Gronn.

[MPower]

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

I think Zeus maybe had stronger powers marginally, and was more cunning, but Hades was more ferocious and would have been more deadly in open war. Maybe the key was that Zeus had more balls or front... and assumed the leadership, and Hades who had a dark and gloomy personality did not challenge him because Zeus took care not to goad him but at the same time acted like he deserved to be king.

---------- Post added at 09:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 PM ----------

"Great warriors do not great leaders make." I think Yoda said that*. But of course he was a half goblin / half ogre, so we might have to take that with a grain of salt.

* or Starscream

[Strange Famous]

Originally Posted by MPower

"Great warriors do not great leaders make." I think Yoda said that*. But of course he was a half goblin / half ogre, so we might have to take that with a grain of salt.

* or Starscream

Sometimes true, but Duke William and Edward I were both (great warriors and leaders)... Duke William in my opinion was the greatest king who ever lived and the most fearsome warrior. But Hades wouldnt have been a good ruler I suppose because of the darkness and insular nature that was always a part of him (before the underword even). But the kind of the gods isnt exactly a leader, its more a honorific title isnt it?

Malfurian Stormrage is a demigod, that is why he is huge.

Thrall is a mortal I believe, unless you know of many gods who cannot overcome a couple of murlocs?

As far as I am aware Arthas is dead. If someone now holds the crown of the Lich King in his place, he could not keep it from Sylvanas' hands if she wanted it. But I dont believe she does.

I like the idea of her as an outsider, a bandit leader - not some kind of dull conventional villian.

_

As usual the key points I make remain unanswered

If Sylvanas is such a bad leader, why to the Forsaken genuinely revere her as they do?