BC referendum - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Powderedmaggot · 05-10-2005, 08:32 AM

How will you be voting in the STV (single transferable vote) referendum and why?
Do you know how it works? There is a shit pile of info if you google "bc stv." Edumacate yourself.

I'm voting yes in hopes that it will produce more accountable governments. As things are right now the party in power can take a minority of the votes and still end up with a huge majority in the legislature. Once in power with a majority they can do whatever they want with effecticve opposition.

BigBen · 05-11-2005, 08:51 AM

Those wacky BC folks are going to try to reform the voting system here in North America, and I have to congratulate you all for it. About time!!

Can I ask, now that you have mentioned it, what kind of communication strategy has the referendum folks put in place? Is there information on every single media and posters pasted on every vertical surface?

I think the challenge of convincing the average voter to:
1. Become dissatisfied with the current system (okay, the results of the last election might have done that)
2. Believe that the STV system is the answer
3. Understand all of the pros and cons so that there is a sense of ownership
4. Actually show up and vote on the referendum.

Is there a counter-STV group running a smear campaign? I would imagine that the current politicians would be none too happy, but that might actually work in favour of the referendum! The idea of NOT THROWING MY VOTE AWAY and the possibility of HAVING SOMEONE IN MY CONSTITUENCY THAT SHARES MY POLITICAL AND SOCIOLOGICAL IDEOLOGIES is really exciting.

Please give me more info on the political climate surrounding this...

BTW, am I the only one that equates STV with STD? Maybe they should have used a different name!

Yakk · 05-11-2005, 12:01 PM

The only absolute flaw I see in the BC-STV system is that there are stages that are not human verified or human verifiable.

At some point you have assloads of data. There are relatively simple computer operations you can perform on the assloads of data.

But, I don't know of a way you can take the ballots, and turn them into the assloads of data in a way that makes large scale cheating require large scale effort.

The current vote-count system is really nice this way because:
1> Each vote is counted with representatives from every party present
2> Those representatives all know the count at their station
3> The vote count at each station is public, so each representative can confirm part of the global list of the results easily.
4> The adding up of each of those verifiable facts can be done by anyone.
5> Thus, the result of the election is human-verifiable.

In order to commit voting fraud, you need a conspiracy purportional to the size of the fraud. To corrupt a riding's results without noise being made, you need to coopt every representative in the riding to your conspiracy.

Other than this one objection, the result of BC-STV would be:
A> Career politicians would tend to have more stable seats.
B> You'd have peons members, and prime members, in each riding, for each party.
C> It would increase the strength of small parties.
D> It would make it nearly impossible to form majority governments.

Powderedmaggot · 05-11-2005, 07:41 PM

Surprisingly there is almost no media attention being paid to this referendum. There is a "no" side but they are pretty quiet. The only reason I know of them is because I decided to edumacate myself and surf up some info. The only thing I have seen other than what I have found on the interweb was a flyer mailed to me about 2 months ago, otherwise it has been real quiet.

ALBINO · 05-13-2005, 05:33 PM

I am against the STV system because although it will reflect the will of the people better you're going to get MLAs from parties like the Communism party of BC and other crap parties like that in the Legislature. With STV you're going to get Minority governments virtually every time. With minority governments you don't have the power to get stuff done. Just look at the federal government right now. Sometimes you just need one party to take control and get stuff done.

guitardude74 · 05-17-2005, 06:04 PM

The issue about not getting majority governments...
Well it's all about equal representation. If a single party doesn't have enough support to form a majority government, then they don't deserve all that power... if this is to be a truly democratic society.

Yakk · 05-22-2005, 12:25 AM

57%

They needed 60%

BigBen · 05-24-2005, 12:28 PM

Ouch.

Close one.

I still agree to the principle, win or lose...

Yakk · 05-26-2005, 02:24 PM

Alternative PR system:

1> Make ridings roughly 5 times larger. (this can vary for geographic reasons).
2> Each riding gets roughly 10 "seats" in the House (5 * 2).
3> One MP or MPP can have more than 1 "seat" or vote in the House.
4> The MP's get a number of seats purportional to the fraction of their vote.

I would also want the following modification:
5> MPs run as a pair of candidates: the candidate and the runnnig mate. The running mate gets just under half of the number of seats that the candidate got.

If the Candidate and Running Mate pair earned 5 seats, the Candidate would get 3 and the Running mate would get 2 seats. If the pair earned 4 seats, Canadidate gets 3 and Running Mate gets 1. (Running mate never gets as many seats as the Candidate).

This prevents the number of MPs in the house from fluxating as much.

Lastly, how exactly you allocate seats to each MP is a detail that matters. "roughly in purportion to votes" isn't detailed enough.

ALBINO · 05-26-2005, 06:26 PM

One thing I don't see mentioned about STV was how confusing it was. Us young guys might be able to understand it, but geezers going into the booth and having to look at a list of 30 cantidates and rank their top ones. That's just not going to work.

05-10-2005, 08:32 AM	#1 (permalink)
Powderedmaggot Banned	BC referendum How will you be voting in the STV (single transferable vote) referendum and why? Do you know how it works? There is a shit pile of info if you google "bc stv." Edumacate yourself. I'm voting yes in hopes that it will produce more accountable governments. As things are right now the party in power can take a minority of the votes and still end up with a huge majority in the legislature. Once in power with a majority they can do whatever they want with effecticve opposition.

05-11-2005, 08:51 AM	#2 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	Those wacky BC folks are going to try to reform the voting system here in North America, and I have to congratulate you all for it. About time!! Can I ask, now that you have mentioned it, what kind of communication strategy has the referendum folks put in place? Is there information on every single media and posters pasted on every vertical surface? I think the challenge of convincing the average voter to: 1. Become dissatisfied with the current system (okay, the results of the last election might have done that) 2. Believe that the STV system is the answer 3. Understand all of the pros and cons so that there is a sense of ownership 4. Actually show up and vote on the referendum. Is there a counter-STV group running a smear campaign? I would imagine that the current politicians would be none too happy, but that might actually work in favour of the referendum! The idea of NOT THROWING MY VOTE AWAY and the possibility of HAVING SOMEONE IN MY CONSTITUENCY THAT SHARES MY POLITICAL AND SOCIOLOGICAL IDEOLOGIES is really exciting. Please give me more info on the political climate surrounding this... BTW, am I the only one that equates STV with STD? Maybe they should have used a different name! __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

05-11-2005, 12:01 PM	#3 (permalink)
Yakk Wehret Den Anfängen! Location: Ontario, Canada	The only absolute flaw I see in the BC-STV system is that there are stages that are not human verified or human verifiable. At some point you have assloads of data. There are relatively simple computer operations you can perform on the assloads of data. But, I don't know of a way you can take the ballots, and turn them into the assloads of data in a way that makes large scale cheating require large scale effort. The current vote-count system is really nice this way because: 1> Each vote is counted with representatives from every party present 2> Those representatives all know the count at their station 3> The vote count at each station is public, so each representative can confirm part of the global list of the results easily. 4> The adding up of each of those verifiable facts can be done by anyone. 5> Thus, the result of the election is human-verifiable. In order to commit voting fraud, you need a conspiracy purportional to the size of the fraud. To corrupt a riding's results without noise being made, you need to coopt every representative in the riding to your conspiracy. Other than this one objection, the result of BC-STV would be: A> Career politicians would tend to have more stable seats. B> You'd have peons members, and prime members, in each riding, for each party. C> It would increase the strength of small parties. D> It would make it nearly impossible to form majority governments. __________________ Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

05-22-2005, 12:25 AM	#7 (permalink)
Yakk Wehret Den Anfängen! Location: Ontario, Canada	57% They needed 60% __________________ Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

05-24-2005, 12:28 PM	#8 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	Ouch. Close one. I still agree to the principle, win or lose... __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

05-11-2005, 07:41 PM	#4 (permalink)
Powderedmaggot Banned	Surprisingly there is almost no media attention being paid to this referendum. There is a "no" side but they are pretty quiet. The only reason I know of them is because I decided to edumacate myself and surf up some info. The only thing I have seen other than what I have found on the interweb was a flyer mailed to me about 2 months ago, otherwise it has been real quiet.

05-13-2005, 05:33 PM	#5 (permalink)
ALBINO Upright	I am against the STV system because although it will reflect the will of the people better you're going to get MLAs from parties like the Communism party of BC and other crap parties like that in the Legislature. With STV you're going to get Minority governments virtually every time. With minority governments you don't have the power to get stuff done. Just look at the federal government right now. Sometimes you just need one party to take control and get stuff done.

05-17-2005, 06:04 PM	#6 (permalink)
guitardude74 Upright Location: BC, Canada	The issue about not getting majority governments... Well it's all about equal representation. If a single party doesn't have enough support to form a majority government, then they don't deserve all that power... if this is to be a truly democratic society.

05-26-2005, 02:24 PM	#9 (permalink)
Yakk Wehret Den Anfängen! Location: Ontario, Canada	Alternative PR system: 1> Make ridings roughly 5 times larger. (this can vary for geographic reasons). 2> Each riding gets roughly 10 "seats" in the House (5 * 2). 3> One MP or MPP can have more than 1 "seat" or vote in the House. 4> The MP's get a number of seats purportional to the fraction of their vote. I would also want the following modification: 5> MPs run as a pair of candidates: the candidate and the runnnig mate. The running mate gets just under half of the number of seats that the candidate got. If the Candidate and Running Mate pair earned 5 seats, the Candidate would get 3 and the Running mate would get 2 seats. If the pair earned 4 seats, Canadidate gets 3 and Running Mate gets 1. (Running mate never gets as many seats as the Candidate). This prevents the number of MPs in the house from fluxating as much. Lastly, how exactly you allocate seats to each MP is a detail that matters. "roughly in purportion to votes" isn't detailed enough. __________________ Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

05-26-2005, 06:26 PM	#10 (permalink)
ALBINO Upright	One thing I don't see mentioned about STV was how confusing it was. Us young guys might be able to understand it, but geezers going into the booth and having to look at a list of 30 cantidates and rank their top ones. That's just not going to work.