skier

It looks as though there will be a non-confidence vote coming up soon (may 16th?) pushed by the bloc and the NDP. The conservatives are sitting on this one, trying to gauge public opinion etc. before deciding which way to go. As of right now, Paul Martin wants the election in 10 months, for the gomery trial to finish first. He feels that the result will be a purge of many Creatin's cronies and more corrupt liberals from his party, leaving him in the clear.

I'm wondering when you guys want the election. Personally, I think that the bloc and NDP pushing the election like this shows they want to ride on the coattails of the scandal. I'd like to wait and see the results of the gomery trial first and see who gets the axe, then head into the election.

edit for idiom correction

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"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

Ace_O_Spades

I definitely think patience will be a virtue for the government in this. Let's get the inquiry done with and get the guilty parties dealt with, then we can go into the election without constant gomery revelations spiking election results.

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Feh.

cellophanedeity

Though I would love to vote (for my first time! ) I'd like it to be when I have a bit of a better idea of what's going on.

I figure that once the inquiry is resolved, then it will be easier for us to know who did what, and therefore who we want representing us.

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who am I to refuse the universe?
-Leonard Cohen, Beautiful Losers

metalgeek

Problem is, people have short memories, and eventually all this news from the gomery trial is going to get boring, and people will ignore it.
Basically for a large number of Canadians, the Liberals have lost the right to rule. I personally don't want them in power for 10 more months, to shred whatever evidence of whats going on that they possibly can. (Personally, I feel that if there is one scam going on, there are probably others.)

And all of the guilty parties are not going to be dealt with. Cretien certainly won't be, and I'm quite sure Martin won't either.

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The truth is, wherever you choose to be, it's the wrong place.
Chuck Palahniuk , Diary

CandleInTheDark

The bums on the hill should stop thinking about elections and get the hell the back to work.

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Where there is doubt there is freedom.

Bossnass

The current leader of our country was the Finance Minister during the sponsorship scandal. This means he is either a liar or incompetent, there is no longer any question at this point that tax dollars were wrongly dispersed. His current position and his current power plays show that he isn't politically incompetent, so maybe he is just bad with numbers.

The fact that the liberals won the last election at all is a strong indication of both a lack of accountability and a poorly informed electorate. If the Gomery inquiry isn't kept in the news, it will be forgotten. If updates are put on national news on a regular basis, it out will dilute the impact. The Gomery results should spike the results. The former Prime Minister didn't take it seriously and won't be held accountable, but I can hope that the current one may be. (Although I am much happier having Martin in the seat then Chretien)

There should be an election soon. A minority goverment is the most ineffective arrangement possible. That said, I don't know how to vote. I can't support the social policies of the conservatives, the NDP can't win, and I certainly can't vote liberal.

OFKU0

Martin wants to drag it out, as stated, because people will become even more complacent than they already are. Look at the angst directed toward the Alliance (New Conservatives) concerning the HRDC boondoggle, the Gun Registry, Jean Chretiens golf course he did/didn't own and the Business Development Bank scandal,...etc on and on and on. People were pissed off at the opposition for wasting time and not dealing with the countries business. What the fuck. Kinda like ordering a steak in a restaurant medium rare, getting it well done, then blaming the restaurant across the street because they didn't let you know they had pasta primavera. Hmmm,....right.

Whenever an election is called, if the Liberals are left in power in a majority or minority function, not only will I have lost all faith in the electoral system but worse, will look at anyone voting Liberal as a complete idiot. How far does ones head have to be up ones ass to not realize there is a bid Liberal cock sharing the same space? Bloody pathetic.

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" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

Daoust

I think it doesn't really matter. I think sooner or later the Liberals are going to call an election. But I cannot honestly say with confidence that the Liberals will lose the next election. And I cannot honestly say that I think the Conservatives would do any better than the Liberals are doing. It's just been so long since a Conservative lead Canada, and oh what a nightmare. Now I think that Harper doesn't have the same blood as Mulroney by any stretch, and I'm sure he and Bush wouldn't make the same kind of bedfellows that Mulroney and Bush the First were.

I hope that the Marijuana Party is beefing up their platform...

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I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace
But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

james t kirk

Not really.

Martin was the finance minister yes. He was dealing with a budget of 200 BILLION dollars. We are talking about 120 million here. That's .06 percent.

So if you make 100,000.00 per year, that's like you losing track of 60 bucks that your wife stole out of your bank account to pay for the motel room to screw her boyfriend while your back was turned.

Does that make you incompetant to manage your finances? or your wife?

Martin was not the guy signing the cheques. He was not the nuts and bolts guy. He was there basically coming up with budgets for each department. How that department spends that money is up to them. He doesn't see every single cheque that goes out the door.

Galiagno was the Minister in charge. I have NO doubt that he was receiving direction from Chretien. I honestly believe Martin didn't know about it cause if he did, he would have used it to screw Chretien in a heart beat.

Ace_O_Spades

Yes, I whole heartedly agree... It was no secret he was gunning for his job for a LONG time... and there was no strong friendship between those two gentlemen.

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Feh.

Lyncher

well it doesn't look like there will be an election soon ... The NDP jumped in bed with the Liberals and it looks like the story will be played out in the inquiry, which I think is the right way. At the least we can expect the NDP to get some of thier bills accross while holding the liberals by the nuts and then have an election in 10 months or so... So lets all not jump the gun here folks, lets wait for the timing to be right... True people might forget about it, and maybe it might stew and make the Liberals look worse. There is no need to run to the polls everytime there is a problem that can be resolved internally.

cellophanedeity

I'd love to not vote liberal, but there's little chance of my top two parties getting in, and I'd be very very sad to have Stephen Harper in charge. I hate that man.

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who am I to refuse the universe?
-Leonard Cohen, Beautiful Losers

Bossnass

It is one thing to 'lose track' of 60 bucks, proportional or not, $120,000,000.00 is a considerable chunk of change.

I think a more apt comparison would be if my imaginary wife, who is my accountant, managed to let her boyfriend steal 60 bucks out of my bedside table. It doesn't really matter if she knew about it or not. Money (perhaps that I collected from co-workers to buy a new watercooler) was "lost" or given away to someone that shouldn't have been there is the first place. My wife is in bed with someone else; is it worse if he stole it or if she gave it to him? Perhaps as a reward we should elect the wife to rule over my extended family- she was always trying to one-up me at big family dinners.

The Gomery Inquiry has shown links between beefed up contracts going to personal friends of Paul Martin. While Paul Martin can't deny the money paper trail, he says he barely knew the company owner. Although a letter has been shown in evidence where Martin comments on golf games and how attractive (the company owner, taking a 20% commission)'s wife is. We aren't talking about a casual 60 bucks for a hotel room, we are talking about a political slush fund with kickbacks to Liberals members. We are talking about criminal activity.

Further, I am not a federal government. The source of my funds aren't arbitrarily taken as taxes. Beyond those taxes, I don't have to be held accountable for a penny. However, regardless of how far down the bureaucracy goes, public funds should be traceable, even in amounts, say, less then 120 Million. If Martin and the Liberals can not be held accountable, then why do we bother with elections at all? Any government that can be put to a non-confidence vote can not be effective. I know the Conservative's are largely responsible for it, but Martin has recently refused a trip to Holland in honor of war dead and vetrans because he needs to be available for a vote. I think that is shameful.

I'm also aware of Martin's political ambitions and that there is no love lost bewteen him and Jean. However, I would say that both Chretien and Martin were well aware of what was going on. But neither can rat out the other without implicating himself and destroying his legacy/current career.

To speak further about percents and figures, the Layton and the NDP, with I think (and my figures could be wrong), 19 out of 309 seats, represents under the current system, about 6%. Because the Liberals are in a precarious position, Layton has forced a NDP friendly budget and will have strong influence for the remainder of the time this minority gov't stays in power. While I am not opposed, for the most part, to NDP ideals, 94% of the country is.

Therefore, I think the current government is completly ineffective, not representative (and yeah, I know that we have a parlimentarian, not representative system), and frankly, a little bit embarassing.

I also conceed that Harper is in large part responsible for make the gov't ineffective, and I'm also a little scared of what would happen if the Conservatives got into power. I don't have a solution to the current platforms of the current parties, but something needs to change sooner or later.

Bossnass

Just wondering where the hate comes from. Person or party? Certainly he is preferable to Manning or Day. I also understand complete opposition to Conservative social polices, even hating the policies. Harper has very much stayed within conservative ideals, although I'm not sure what he has done as a person for him to be hated.

I don't like the Liberals. Not because of platform, but because of recent history and performance. I think Martin is a pretty solid politian and leader, I just don't think he deserves to be in power. I don't hate him.

I am opposed to the borderline socialist policies of the NDP. Social responsibility is good, but not to the extent that the NDP support, which I think is socially and economically unsustainable. I think Layton is a weak representative and I find him rather annoying. I don't hate him though.

cellophanedeity

Perhaps I was harsh. No, I was most definitely harsh. I don't hate him. I just very strongly disagree with his (and the conservative party's) policies, and would be terribly unhappy if he won.

That was rash of me to say that I hate him. I just hate his party. Thanks for pointing out my mistake.

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who am I to refuse the universe?
-Leonard Cohen, Beautiful Losers

Sticky

I'm sorry, but I don't get this way of thinking.
You can only vote for who is going to win?

I certainly don't want anybody voting for the NDP but...
...I just don't get it. If you don't vote for who you want then what is the point of even having a vote anyway.

How many people think the way you do? What if all those people voted for who they wanted to? Their party may not win, but they would certainly take more of the popular vote.

What purpose does it serve to vote Liberal just becuase they are goin to win?


To me the only way that you can justify voting for a party that you don't want to vote for is if another party is even worse and there is a chance they may gain enough support to take power.


Here is what I think.

It is a minority government. That means the party making the decisions do not represent the majority of Canadians. If the there is a no-confidence vote it should becuase the people want it. If the poeple don't want it will be reflected in the polls come election time.

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Sticky The Stickman

OFKU0

Agreed with the post you stated but how is Harper largely responsible for the ineptitude of the Liberal government? I'm not a big fan of his but responsible for an ineffective government is a stretch.

People shouldn't be scared of the Conservatives or of Harper. It's funny, last election all I heard from people was how scary Harper was but when asked why he was scary, no one could give me an answer. Sometimes it's hip to say media generated words.

Fact is if the Conservatives get into power, very little will change. For some reason people have this notion that the first day in power for a new government, there will be a violent shift 180 degrees. Big government doesn't work that way. I don't like some of the Conservative ideals but I like change. Change is good.

It's time for fresh ideas. The Liberals are stagnant and have been that way for years. Let's try someone else for a change. Who knows they might even do the job as opposed to the current gov't that is doing very little to nothing but collecting taxes and then blowing the wad like drunken sailors on a day pass.

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" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

Bossnass

Sticky:

I would vote liberal if they were more conservative, I would vote conservative if they were a little bit more liberal. I agree with the NDP -in theory. In theory communism works. My point is that there isn't a party that I fully support. I don't support the NDP or the Liberals enough to vote for them. I agree though, that you need to vote for a party that you support, even if they can't win. All those people who I told that a vote for the NDP was a wasted vote can laugh in my face now that Layton has so much leverage on Martin.

OFKU0:
The Liberals are ineffective and inept. And Harper is taking them to task, as he should be. But by applying pressure, as he is, it allows the Liberals excuses. For example, the claim that if conservatives force an election, the inquiry would have to be stopped or postponed. Or Martin not going to Holland because he needs to be present if a vote of non-confidence arises wouldn't be an issue if Harper doesn't put the vote on the table.

I will likly vote conservative in the next election, but every platform has its detractions. I support same-sex marriage and am pro-choice. I'm not religious, and the many of the christian stances of the (Reform, Alliance...Conservative?) have no place in politics. I also don't see much point in the american missile defense program. I support good border relations but I would be scared of a conservative prime minister of jumping into the back pocket of Bush.

Ace_O_Spades

I couldn't believe my eyes when I opened the paper this morning.

Jack Leyton is effectively in charge now. This new budget is total NDP... Rock and roll!!! We're FINALLY (kinda) in power!



of course I exaggerate, but I honestly think Paul Martin has lost all credibility now as a leader. The next government is going to be Conservative for sure... and that makes me sad.

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Feh.

silent_jay

I must agree Ace, I really don't want the Conservatives in charge, but Martin has left the people of Canada with no choice. Although in the last election I made a registered no vote simply because we really didn't have a choice. I voted Chretien for years I liked the man and the way he led the country but Martin just isn't that good, I've just never trusted him.

I doubt that Harper would be able to do any better, but who knows, all I know is he won't be getting my vote.

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Ace_O_Spades

I can't in good conscious register as a no vote, because I support neither the liberals, nor the conservatives

I always have my choice... I'm really proud of Jack Leyton for being able to muscle Paul Martin like that. I wonder how the negotiations went?

Martin: K, we need your help.

Leyton: We want all our demands met.

Martin: No fucking way.

Leyton: Alright, see you on the opposition side.

Martin: I'm so worried about not being Prime Minister I'll sacrifice all my values and credibility to stay Prime Minister for another few months. Deal.

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Feh.

OFKU0

Agreed 100%. I'm not anti-American by any stretch, but we are a people, not a puppet. I also enjoy some good bud from time to time and that's a big no-no with the Tories. And my sister is gay.

This really is Canada's step into the 21th century and we have to start acting like a responsible nation in the global world. We need someone with balls, not to put us on the map, but to highlite our place in the global sense.

Don't know of anyone with balls that big to step up to the plate and put Canada in a position to be recognized and respected internationally and more importantly, taken seriously. Well maybe I'll double my current age and live to see it. Hope so.

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" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

matteo101

I am sort of getting the feeling that Martin and the Liberals have no problem with this budget. The only major change was cutting out the major corporation tax cuts, and putting the money into selected social programs such as the environment, education, foreign aid, affordable housing etc. The liberals only put in the big business tax cuts to please Harper enough to vote for the budget, and now that they no there is no chance of this happening anyways, I really dont think the new budget bothers the liberals that much.

Sticky

But it is not about the budget.
And if we even get to a vote on the budget in the house it still won't be about the budget.

It is about a minority government.
A minority government has an inherrant flaw - they do not hold a majority of the seats.

What we are faced with now is polls telling us that the liberals do not have enough support to be able to win an election.
Harper was going to jump on that at his first opportunity if it means the conservatives can benefit.
Duceppe's numbers are awesome in Quebec so he will go along even if he cant stand the Tories.

Then Martin hears that nobody likes his budget he has 3 options.
- He can change it to get support from the Bloc. Bloc + Liberals would be a good percentage of Canadians
- He can change it to get support from the Tories. Tories + Liberals would be a good percentage fo the population
- He can change it to get support from the NDP. NDP + Liberals does not give him a majority and it is also not even close to the representation of the population he would get with the first two options.
- Do nothing.

The first 2 options (above) were really out of the question because the Tories and the Bloc have seen the numbers (polls), they want to topple the Gov't now.

So he is left with
- deal with the NDP and still not be ensured of his budget passing
- do nothing and die now

So to keep himself alive (for an undetermined amount of time) he signs a deal with teh NDP. The deal does not ensure him of his budget passing nor does it give him good representation across the country. In addition, this pisses the Tories and Bloc off even more.

So now we are
- 151 Libs and NDPs
- 153 Bloc and Tories

So now the fate of the current government rests in the hands of 3 independants.

So what can Martin do next.
Matin: Hmm maybe I can appoint some Conservative or Bloc MPs to sentate ro soemthing else effectively taking them out of the house and shifting the numbers in my way.

So I say again. Is this about the budget?

I think not.

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Sticky The Stickman

matteo101

I agree with you one hundred percent that it has nothing to do with the budget. All that matters now is the three independant MP's.

james t kirk

I will give you three.

1. Harper is a career politician. He started working for the PC party basically the second he finished law school. He has never ever had a "real job" in his life. Contrast this to Paul Martin who is a self made multi millionaire.

2. During the last election, Harper and the Conservatives were campaigning on a big US style tax cut, large increases to health care and the military. While I am all for large increases to the military and health care, I have to ask, where is all this money going to come from if you are cutting taxes? Martin has been running surplusses, but not that big of a surplus.

So where's the money going to come from?? What are you going to cut? or are you going to deficit finance to do it?? Harper would never come clean on this issue. (He did say he wanted to buy an air craft carrier though.)

I will never ever ever vote for US styled tax cuts based on borrowing money. It's absurd.

3. Making social policy an election issue. I.e. abortion, gay marriage, both of which I support. (Because I want less government intrusion in my life not more.)

james t kirk

Martin's deal with Layton only pisses me off cause I hate Layton so much. He's such a self serving bastard with that smug look on his face.

I have had the grave misfortune of working indirectly with Layton. I found him a complete scum bag and could not be trusted. He has to be the biggest self promoter I have ever met.

As far as the deal itself, that's what happens in a minority gov't. You make compromises to stay in power.

That being said, I think the liberals are cooked.

I predict another Joe Clark conservative minority. By that I mean that Harper will win a minority gov't but will be tossed on his ear within a year or two at which time the liberals will storm back into power under Brian Tobin and win a huge majority.

Paul Martin though sadly is finished.

Sticky

Looks like (according to polls) that we Canadians will do it again. We have not had enough:

Liberals and Conservatives tied in latest poll
CTV.ca News Staff

A new poll shows that if an election was held today, the Liberals and the Conservatives would be neck-and-neck in the race for national support. The numbers show a boost for the Liberals in the past week, indicating a recovery from bombshell news from the sponsorship inquiry.
http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/A...hub=topstories

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Sticky The Stickman

OFKU0

Number 1 isn't scary to me. Trudeau was a career politician as was Chretien. Actually, come to think of it, it is pretty scary since both the aforementioned fucked things up pretty good too.

And now we have 4.6 billion in corporate taxes shifting to social policy. Hmmm,...I smell a deficit coming on.

And I'm not a fan of Harper. I too support abortion and gay marriage and LESS religious influence in government not more, but I'll tell you, this current Paul and Jack show will suprise you. How? by taking pages out of the conservative playbook and acting as Conservatives. Afterall, what better way to keep Harper out of power than to borrow from conservative ideology. And to boot, Harper can't whine and complain or he'll be accused of turning his back on what he supports. That's why he wants an election so bad. To get credit for his ideas and not the Liberals and now NDP.

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" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.