JJRousseau

I've really enjoyed exchanging rhetoric with all of you on some of the more interesting and pressing topics in Canadian sociology and politics. There's a very respectful tone in this forum that is missing from many others which makes the debate a lot more fun.

But as I get to know some of you better (by your stands on the issues) I am curious where you fit in the "grand scheme". For those of you who don't mind being pigeonholed... I suggest that you take this test and report your scores here.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

It's a British site but it applies to most political systems. Take the test before you looking at the rest of the site. I found it very interesting. It's difficult to put aside political correctness and answer honestly but when I did, I discovered that I was more moderate than I thought.

i scored:

Economic scale: +2.5
Social scale: -4.3

( an uncommitted anarchist)

The site also scores historical and current political figures. It's interesting to note that most current politicians from Bush to Kerry to Martin score very similar. In other words, we have little choice in casting our votes...

skier

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -4.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

I have some strong opinions on social responsibility and governmental control.

Interesting test, for sure.

edit- looks like i'm sitting right around where nelson mandela and the dalai lama are. :P

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"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

JJRousseau

-6.36! Wow, As a committed libertarian, I dream of that score. Tthat makes the Dalai look like a fence sitter. Referring back to the last line in my previous post, I am noticing that everyone who has told me their scores is negative on the Social scale and yet all our politicians are in the positive.

El Kaz

Economic Left/Right: -2.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.33

Sitting amongst Gandhi and the Dalai Lama, at the opposite of pretty much all politicians.
I feel like a peace-lovin' hippy

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"Write a wise saying and your name will live forever." -Unknown

skier

JJ- it's probably a reflection of the type of people that frequent the TFP, rather than a larger social trend. Although I would love to see it that way.

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"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

CandleInTheDark

Economic: -2.13
Social: -3.79

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Where there is doubt there is freedom.

drawerfixer

EDIT - whoops, just noticed that this is in the Canadian forum. Please disregard my scores. PM or reply if it would be best for me to just delete this post.

I feel like I belong in Canada though!

Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -9.18

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They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

munchen

Wow, I am extreme, but my views are correct so its okay,
Economic: -8.63
Social: -7.08

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"Love is a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun" -Matt Groening

JJRousseau

drawer, happy to have your input. Among other things, I'm a student of political science too.

Two very extreme scores and I think it is the most difficult corner of the graph to define. So what "term" do you apply to someone in the far bottom left corner? Is that a classic (as opposed to neo) Liberal? A utopian?

And how do you see a society functioning that holds the values of extreme personal liberty AND extreme capital control?

By the way, it's good to be naive and idealistic for a while. It certainly doesn't last for long until cynicism sets in.

JJRousseau

You are probably right. But a number of my friends who have taken the test (particularly the women) fall in to that bottom left sector too - albeit much closer to the centre than most of you. Most of them aren't "the tfp type". They are the middle aged, 2.2 kids, BMW driving, suburban executive types.

captanhero

Economic: -4.13
Social: -3.74

Not at all what I expected. I may need to change parties, heh.

Hope you can forgive the input of another American. I'm adopted though...my SO is a native

Jackebear

Wow, very interesting test. I thought I would be more libertarian but I guess I am either a fantastic fence-sitter or a good devil's advocate in a debate with 2 others who are way north or south.

I was just one and a half boxes down from the exact middle.

Economic : -0.13
Social : -1.85

However, I strongly agree that marijuana should be legalized.

I live in a country now where I can get 3 years in jail just by being in a room where it is but they sell cigarettes in vending machines and allow smoking everywhere including Mickey D's...can you believe it....smoking in Mickey D's. Terrible.

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Yakk

Economic Left/Right: -2.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.00

Note, however, that I answered many, many of the questions on semantic grounds. I doubt I was answering the question they meant to ask. When you say 'sometimes', that means 'sometimes' and not often, for example. I find that, depending on how literal I am feeling that day, my score varies alot on these tests. =)

They admit to this:
Which makes me wonder, am I supposed to respond to the emotional buzzwords, or what they actually said?

The second problem with this scale is that it was developed (or promoted) by Libertarians. To actually sort people into areas, they should first ask questions, then look for co-relations to generate dimensions, then name the dimensions. It looks like they started with the dimensions, and generated the questions -- odds are, they didn't even do co-relatory work to determine the weight of each question.

However, I can't tell, because they don't release their scoring methodology.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

JJRousseau

Oh Yakk. You're no fun... It's not meant to be the be all and end all. It's an intersting quiz that can generate some interesting discussion. Political ideology is a terribly messy thing but as far as attempts to quantify it go, I think this particular quiz has considerable validity. Certainly more than any other I have seen.

I certainly agree that some of the questions are difficult to answer because your intellect and your emotion respond differently. The first time I took the test, I tried to answer intellectually to the "Sentiment" that the statement made. I took the test again, answering emotionally and was slightly more extreme. i consider that the first is my cynical real world answer. The second is my "what-if", utopian answer. ???

While the two dimensional model was created by a Libertarian, I don't see on this website that these people are necessarily Libertarians. In fact, the two names they credit are socialists. Further the two dimensional model is well respected by educators and supporters of various parties. Specifically, this web sites model is not the same is the one on the American Libertarian site. It is rotated 45 degrees counter-clockwise and the left/right axis is somewhat different. Comparing the philosophy behind differences in interesting.

I strongly disagree. Too many people label themselves incorrectly (myself included) and too many political labels mean different things. You can not co-relate American Republicans because they are all over the map on most issues. As you can not co-relate Libertarians, etc. I don't think you can read that much in to this quiz. It is simply asking you for you opinion on social and economic issues and plotting where you fall. Once you see where you land, you can call yourself what ever you want. Yes, I guess they could be weighting the test so that most people fall in the bottom left but I hope most won't make any dramatic life altering choices based solely on this quiz.

Charlatan

Economic Left/Right: -6.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.64

I agree that some of the questions were a bit odd... the one about the effectiveness of a one party system... I agreed that the statement was correct but disagreed with the application of that statement...

I think I am right about where I was the last time I took this test... somewhere in the lower left corner...

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

JJRousseau

Wow, a lot of small-c communists. How interesting.

Zephyr66

Economic Left/Right: -7.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.77

Hooray for left-wing Libertarians!

JJRousseau

Ah. So many libertarians. It does a body good. now if only we could elect one. Left or right!

Would you far left guys really support some-one who sat on his ass all day??

Antikarma

Aaaaaand....

Economic Left/Right: -5.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.46

Me and Ghandi man, we're tight. And no, I would not elect a left leaning politician that sat on his ass all day. I'm a strong volunteer for the NDP, but in an ideal world, where I had three wishes and after booze beer and song, I got ANOTHER wish, I'd wish for a Liberal minority with NDP opposition.

Aw crap, now I've done it.

/ducks and covers under desk for impending anti-Jack Layton comments

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"Whoever you are, go out into the evening,
leaving your room, of which you know each bit;
your house is the last before the infinite,
whoever you are."

Charlatan

Are you refering to the question that asked if we would support those on welfare who when given the opportunity to work refuse?

I disagreed with that one... not strongly but that was only because I didn't know the context... I disagree in principle but could agree on a case by case basis... If you follow me.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

vox_rox

Actually, I had some major problems with the wording of some of the questions, and semantics cannot be ignored when some of the quesitons were clearly designed to evoke emotional reposnses. Still, I analyzed those questions individually, outside of the matrix of the survey, and answered using logic and my most honest feelings.

My score:
Economic Left/Right: -6.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.31

Looks like I'm keeping fairly good company with Ghandi and the Dalai Lama.

So, J.J., I'm interested to find out how a strong libertarian such as yourself actually ranked so economically high? I can't help but think that you, too, answered some of the emotional questions contrary to your thoughts just so as not to do what is expected. Is this true?

Two things that are unfortuante about this test are 1) that you cannot repeat the test with any reasonable expectation of accuracy, knowing how to skew the results and 2) that the survey appears to be primarily qualitative in nature and that the mertics used to evaluate the responses are not available. That could be helpful in determining the accuracy of the measurements, although statistics is not my field, and I really and truly dislike them!

Anyway, thanks J.J. for challenging us with this, very thought provoking.

Peace,

Pierre

ps. I don't suppose that the "JJ" Actually stand for Jean Jacques like the original, do they?

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There is no such thing as strong coffee - only weak people.
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Ace_O_Spades

Economic Left/Right: -4.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.10

About what I expected

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Feh.

JJRousseau

Oh man. Aren't any of you over with me? I'm getting lonely.

Yes Charlatan. I was referring to that question. I guess I think that to be far bottom left, you have to consider that some people in your commune may chose not to produce. And if you are extreme left, you will likely support them anyway. I have way too big of a "personal responsibility" streak to get my head around that. However, before your reply, please note that in my books personal responsibility does include charity and assistance to those in need. Just not to those who can't be bothered.

Vox, libertarian, anarchism and communism (all small letters as in ideologies not parties) seem to get thrown around together and moved around to mean different things. Certainly, communism is extreme left of the libertarian view but of Anarchists and Libertarians (capital letters) there are left and right. Normally, anarchists are seen as left thought there are many who accept the concept of private property. Normally, Libertarians (capital letter again) are extreme right. However, there are some "social libertarians" who are to the left.

In other words, I'm not far enough right for most Libertarians. The problems I have with the bottom right is uncontrolled corporatization. But, the only understanding I have of corporations is how they operate in a lame democratic system like ours where they receive welfare, run amok and are in tight with the ruling class.

It may be (???) that in a perfect free market, libertarian society, corporations would operate to the benefit of the population. I can't see it but I can't say for sure.

It's interesting that both these extreme systems fail because of people. The left can't deal with sloth. The right can't deal with greed.

vox_rox

Hey, you started this whole thing in the first place. But, really, I think I speak for all of us when I say we're here for you. Actually, I can't speak for all of "us" nor do I think I am, so I'll take that back. What I REALLY mean to say is that I'M here for you. 'Nuff said.


Yup, the fallibility of the egocentric and inherently selfish naked apes is the the one quality that makes all of our other qualities (intellegence, opposable thumbs, ability to chrun out lame sit-coms ad infititum, etc...) take a back seat. If not for our need - our basic deep-down individual need - to get everything we can out of what ever sitution we are presented with, we could be a paceful, loving, environmentally sustainable, and wholly social society.

Well, we can only all do our part. As Ghandi said (and I paraphrase), to remain neutral in an unbalanced fight is to support the stronger. I think it rings of the Ben Fraknlin concept (as seen as a .sig on this board maybe?) that democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding on what to have for dinner. It kind of places majority rule in question, and underscores the fact that equality, as we understand it, is basically unequal as long as individual power is variable.

Anyway, thanks again JJ, but you never answered my question about the letters JJ, you aren't the original essayist come back to grace a new millennium with wisdom that we'll probably ignore at our own peril are you?

Peace,

Pierre

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There is no such thing as strong coffee - only weak people.
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JJRousseau

Yes I took my online name from the author of the Social Contract. For me, if you can't answer the spiritual questions (which I don't presume the intelligence to) then you must try to answer the moral questions (right and wrong, good and evil) before you can move on to any others. The Social Contract made the most sense to me. I know my Libertarian brothers would spit up their exploited-worker-made-wine and tell me to read more Nietzsche, but I guess that's why I'm only a 2.5 on the Economic scale...

Paix à vous

vox_rox

Well, th Social Contract is not a perfect treatise, but the clarity with which he puts forth the concepts makes the work worthy of, at least, consideration.

As for your friends and Nietzsche, it is possible to mix philosophy with political science and sociology as they are not uncomfortable bedfellows. In fact, here is one of my favourite quotes by Nietzsche that, I think, fits here:

"Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity. Those who would like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity. For the crowd believes that if it cannot see to the bottom of something it must be profound. It is so timid and dislikes going into the water."
-The Gay Science

Yet the Scoial Contract is both clarity defined, and so deep as not to have a visible bottom, so therein lies an interesting paradox.

Anyway, this is now WAY off topic, but I just can't help myself when these fantastic threads appear, or others like the Lament of a Nation thread erlier. I could see myself talking about this stuff over a good single-malt with JJ, Ace, Charlatan, Antikarma and a bunch of others someday. Who knows?

Peace,

Pierre

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There is no such thing as strong coffee - only weak people.
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Antikarma

aye well, I'd agree with you, cept if its going to be a conversation with you folks I'll need a rye instead of a malt. I tend to be more an emotional and less an analytical sort when it comes to opinions, and I can FULLY expect how that conversation will go

Naive? Perhaps. Uninformed? I hope not. Passionate about what I believe in? Hell yes.

But, should the opportunity ever arise, you can expect me to be at the table, being chided by JJ for drinking the heavy instead of the wines.

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"Whoever you are, go out into the evening,
leaving your room, of which you know each bit;
your house is the last before the infinite,
whoever you are."

JJRousseau

I only drink the grapes of oppression when with my brothers of the jungle. When I'm with my worthy colleagues of great struggle, I drink Vodka! Preferably Polish!

ledsam

Economic Left/Right: -7.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.95

I remember doing this test ages ago and getting the same result. This test might not be perfect but at least gives you a general sense of where everyone is.

Good guy, that Ghandi ...

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"We are always in our own company."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Charlatan

I find it interesting that we Canadians by and large seem to be falling in the lower half and largely into the bottom left...

I seem to recall it was almost the opposite when this test was take by the general populace of the TFP...

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Powderedmaggot

Economic -4.65
Social -5.44

I'm right in there with the Dali Lama.

The general populace of the TFP is mostly 'mercans. I'm not too surprised that they scored in the authoritarian right.

Yakk

You don't corelate people based on thier own labels. You corelate people based on answer clumps.

If answering A on question 1 and Z on question 4 corelates strongly, they are probably about the same, or related, opinion. Do that on a larger scale.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Lewis

Blimey! I'm pretty near Ghandi somewhere in the left/libertarian. Good company, I guess.

Nice test.

scott_p_1

I'm just about where I thought I'd be
left -7.13
libertarian -4.41

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<Insert witty and profound statements here>

Yakk

Not that I mind, but I'm wondering -- what are you doing around these parts, if yer not from Canada? =)

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Antikarma

omg he's a terrorist spy!!!!!

Oh wait, Canada, thats right. Hey, have a beer eh? It's on me, the company's always welcome in our corner of the TFP.

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"Whoever you are, go out into the evening,
leaving your room, of which you know each bit;
your house is the last before the infinite,
whoever you are."

Yakk

Ya hoser, of course she's welcome.

So long as she takes off her shoes.

We do have standards, ya know.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Cujo

Hmmmmmm.

Economic Left/Right: -1.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.44

Man.......... Why does that score scare the shit out of me?

JJRousseau

Mom, is that you?

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Take from the philosopher the pleasure of being heard and his desire for knowledge ceases.