Newfoundland's flag flap 'disrespectful,' PM says - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

OFKU0 · 12-25-2004, 03:21 PM

Newfoundland's flag flap 'disrespectful,' PM says

Last Updated Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:33:59 EST

OTTAWA - The prime minister has slammed Newfoundland and Labrador's premier for ordering all Canadian flags removed from provincial government buildings, condemning the move as "disrespectful."

Premier Danny Williams ordered the flags taken down on Thursday, in retaliation for an offer from the federal government on offshore royalties that he called a "slap in the face."

Prime Minister Paul Martin said Newfoundland's removal of Canadian flags insults all Canadians. (File photo)

FROM DEC. 23, 2004: Maple Leaf flags removed in offshore feud

Later in the day, Prime Minister Paul Martin said the move insulted all Canadians.

"The premier's actions are disrespectful of our most treasured national symbol," Martin said in a statement. "The flag should not be used as a tool in partisan politics."

Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia have been pushing to retain 100 per cent of offshore energy revenues. Currently, Ottawa claws back 70 cents of every dollar through reduced equalization payments.

After talks with federal Finance Minister Ralph Goodale on Wednesday failed to produce a deal, Williams said the flags would be kept out of sight until Ottawa offers his province a fair settlement.

FROM DEC. 22, 2004: Offshore royalty offer a 'slap in the face': Newfoundland premier

Williams, who had set a Christmas deadline for a new deal, insisted he has no intention of continuing to bargain with the federal government.

N.S. premier distances himself from Williams

Nova Scotia's Premier John Hamm took a more moderate tone, distancing himself from Williams's tactics and saying he will resume negotiations in January.

"I have different issues right now than he has. And I have to pursue my issues and I will in the most effective way that I can."

The Canadian flag comes down at the Newfoundland and Labrador legislature on Thursday.
Goodale had offered a 16-year deal that he says gave the provinces 100 per cent of offshore energy revenues – adding up to as much as $3 billion over several years.

But Williams said Ottawa's actual proposal gave the province less than the full revenues.

RELATED
* Coverage from CBC Newfoundland

He also objected to a condition that required Newfoundland to eliminate its $700-million deficit in order to receive increased benefits from offshore revenues beyond eight years.

It isn't the first time flags have been used in a fight with Ottawa over oil. In 1982, Newfoundland flew them at half-mast to protest negotiations with the federal government over oil.

Written by CBC News Online staff

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...ams041224.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I say good for the Newfoundland premier for standing up to Ottawa. Good for him.

As for the Prime Minister speaking for me and all Canadians that we are embarrassed by the actions taken,..well for one I'm not.

Newfoundland is getting screwed again. Why doesn't our knowledgable Prime Minister come out and say that Canadians are embarrassed by Quebecs constant bickering about seperation everytime the gravy train slows down?

Or how Quebec doesn't pay tax on billions of hydro sold to the U.S?

Or how when then Premier Bouchard of Quebec came to Ottawa to collect a couple of hundred million for the Millenium scholarship fund and proceeded to take every Canadian flag out of a room in the Parliament buildings to be replaced with the Quebec provincial flag? And then said he doesn't want Canada to be seen as a funder to Quebec,..in other words lets take the money and say fuck you. And then 3 months later when all the rest of the premiers were in Ottawa to collect their share,..there was Quebec again double dipping.

And not to mention how our wonderfully knowledgable Prime Minister said that two tiered healthcare would break up Canada according to Stephen Harper,...then he allows ONLY Quebec to have two tiered healthcare.

Any reason that the Newfoundland premier shouldn't be pissed seen as it is a 'have not' province just like Quebec and doesn't get anywhere the same level of nurturing, coddling and burping that is so relevant to the future of 'la belle province?'

Discuss.

blitz.fenix · 12-25-2004, 05:42 PM

There are better ways of protesting to Ottawa than taking down the national symbol and refusing to display it. I am abhorred that a Premier would do such a thing. Yes I agree that Newfoundland is being short-handed and the Prime Minister should step up and take some action. As for Quebec I don't know what to say.

Ace_O_Spades · 12-27-2004, 03:14 PM

I am offended... I was when I read the article, and I am when I think about it.

The flag is a symbol of Canada, it's people, and what we stand for. It is not a tool, or something trivial that should be used in retaliation to some political action/sanction.

I think it is a slap in the face.

El Kaz · 12-27-2004, 03:39 PM

For taking down the flag, well it's a matter of opinion, I find it tasteless personnaly, but I guess it can seem legitimate.

What I don't get, however, is what your apparent personnal grief agaisnt Quebec has to do with this issue..?

OFKU0 · 12-27-2004, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Kaz

For taking down the flag, well it's a matter of opinion, I find it tasteless personnaly, but I guess it can seem legitimate.

What I don't get, however, is what your apparent personnal grief agaisnt Quebec has to do with this issue..?

Just drawing a comparison between two 'have not' provinces and how differently the attitude and tone are presented. Paul Martin would never say that Quebec is being disrespectful if they in turn removed flags as stated because of the huge Liberal voting block. Hence the nurturing, coddling and burping that has been going on 40 years strong now.

vox_rox · 12-29-2004, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OFKU0

As for the Prime Minister speaking for me and all Canadians that we are embarrassed by the actions taken,..well for one I'm not.

Newfoundland is getting screwed again. Why doesn't our knowledgable Prime Minister come out and say that Canadians are embarrassed by Quebecs constant bickering about seperation everytime the gravy train slows down?

Okay, there is an easy knee-jerk side to this, and a more complex critical side, and I think the obvious reactions are emotional. However, I can't help but both agree and disagree with OFKU0 in that, no Martin does not speak for me. Yet, I also say that the NFLD Premier has it very, very wrong.

What, for instance, does he think will be acomplished with this bizarre political posturing? Will an agreement come faster becuase Ottawa wlil want a deal that wlil fly the flags again? Absolutely not. It's political grand-standing, taken right out of the Ralph Klein handbook on "How NOT To Run Your Province."

Do I think that the Maritime provinces should get the Lion's share of these resource revenues? Absolutely. Does this have anything to do with the Greedy P.Q. provincial agenda? Nothing whatsoever (although I agree with an earlier poster that says maybe we should be looking at those Quebec hydro revenues a little closer, even though it would result in civil war

Still, IMO only, I see the act of the NFLD Premier as silly, self-serving, and without any real thought, except to make sure that every person in the province becomes aware that they have a Premier.

Anyway, Ottawa will get a deal one way or the other, flags or no flags, and NFLD will end up giving something up, just as Alberta does for its oil and gas. It's just the way Ottawa works when they are addicted to collecting revenue from provinces in the form of equalization, and from its citizens in the form of taxation overburden.

C'est la vie.

Peace,

Pierre

OFKU0 · 12-29-2004, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vox_rox

Do I think that the Maritime provinces should get the Lion's share of these resource revenues? Absolutely. Does this have anything to do with the Greedy P.Q. provincial agenda? Nothing whatsoever (although I agree with an earlier poster that says maybe we should be looking at those Quebec hydro revenues a little closer, even though it would result in civil war

Good post vox rox. After further review, yeah the flag thing is over the top but it served its purpose.

But does this have anything to do with greedy P.Q provincial agenda? Two words. Churchill Falls. That pretty much is the starting point and ending point as to why Newfoudland is a 'have not' province when it should be a 'have' province.

holymoly · 12-31-2004, 01:48 AM

I was in NFLD for a couple weeks in the summer and there's a lot of people who feel very bitter towards the federal gouvernment. I saw a lot of Republic of Newfoundland shirts and whatnot out there, which I'm sure were a joke, but also maybe a little bit serious.

jakewesier · 01-02-2005, 07:07 PM

it's pretty terrible to think that is going to help their cause any. NFLD has a lot of problems with their economy, moreso then probably any other prov and to piss off the entire country like that I personally don't think was wise at all.

But hey, to each their own.

blitz.fenix · 01-03-2005, 04:20 PM

Newfoundland Republican Army, N.R.A

Sorry...

skier · 01-03-2005, 09:37 PM

I think the premier wanted to raise awareness in this issue from the rest of canada by lowering the flags- but he sent the wrong message.

Newfoundlanders want to recieve the revenues from the oil so that they do not have to recieve equalization (read: handouts) from other provinces. It decreases their dependance on the federal government, even if the actual revenue they receive is the same. It's the source of their revenues that is important, and when the PM changed his "100%" stance that was promised to them, newfie voters and government were understandably upset.

I totally agree however that taking down canadian flags was not the right message. Instead of just pissing off the federal government, he's pissed off the rest of canada as well. I'm sure if he had spent a little less time fuming and a little more thinking, he could have found a better way to express his displeasure with Paul Martin and his political agenda.

OFKU0 · 01-09-2005, 09:06 AM

There doesn't seem to be much interest in this topic, but I'll post this anyways. From John Crosbie in todays Toronto Sun.

===============================================================

Sun, January 9, 2005

Our beef with Canada

By John Crosbie -- For the Toronto Sun

Today, I will try to explain what causes the intensity of the feeling in Newfoundland and Labrador over its offshore oil and gas resource dispute with the government of Canada.

Last June 5, Prime Minister Paul Martin, in a phone conversation with Premier Danny Williams that was confirmed later on Signal Hill before the press, committed to make sure that the province was "the primary beneficiary of its resources." Martin stated: "I have made it very clear that the proposal that (Williams) has put forth is a proposal that we accept."

The failure of Martin since June 5 to carry out his electoral commitment to Newfoundland and Labrador comprises the third major betrayal of the province's vital interests by Canada, with respect to the major assets Newfoundland brought to Confederation when it joined on April 1, 1949.

In addition to our strategic geographical position essential to the defence of Canada, we Newfoundlanders brought with us a claim to most of the Atlantic Continental Shelf, comprising millions of square miles later recognized by the UN as part of the Canadian 200-mile economic zone.

If Newfoundland had not joined Canada, Newfoundland would have controlled the fish resources and the oil and gas and mineral resources in that huge area, as well as the iron ore and hydro power resources of Labrador.

The 56 years since 1949 have seen the vital interests of Newfoundland and Labrador ignored by Canada, with the resources either poorly administered and depleted -- as in the case of the cod and other fish species -- or with the province's economic and revenue needs ignored, as in the development of the offshore and hydro power resources.

Shamefully ignored

The promise that it should be the primary beneficiary of the offshore resources -- in accordance with the Atlantic Accord on offshore oil and gas resource management and revenue sharing -- has been ignored shamefully by Canada while Newfoundland continues as a "have not" province, its fiscal capacity per capita still only 68.5% of the national average.

This is why most people in the province back Williams' position in the Atlantic Accord negotiations with Martin -- and why they are so upset that they also support his decision to remove the flag of Canada from provincial buildings.

This all results from Canada's three major betrayals, the details of which should be known to all Canadians:

Hydro: The hydro-electric development of the Upper Churchill River in Labrador was initiated in 1953 when Brinco entered an agreement with the government of Newfoundland. Because of geography, Quebec either had to be the customer for the huge quantity of power developed or had to permit the energy developed to be transmitted across Quebec to other purchasers. The result was torturous negotiations with Quebec that continued for 14 years.
Canada refused to use its constitutional power to declare this a work "for the general advantage of Canada or two or more of the provinces" which would have prevented Quebec's objections. Instead, Canada believed it to be in the national interest not to aggravate the threat of Quebec separatism. This federal decision was largely responsible for the onerous 65-year contract forced upon Newfoundland and Brinco by Quebec that severely limited prices.

During the years since 1974, Quebec has received economic rent from the Upper Churchill Project of $800 million per year while Newfoundland, as the owner of the resource, receives $20 million per year. The development of the Lower Churchill did not proceed and despite seven major negotiations between the two provinces in the 30 years since, two major sites remain undeveloped, with the water running to the sea and Newfoundland and Labrador losing hundreds of millions of dollars of economic rent. How would the people of Ontario or other provinces feel if Quebec was aided by Canada to impose such a deal on them?

Fish: The northern cod were fished off Newfoundland by Europeans from 1481 onwards. In the 100 years from 1850 to 1950, an average catch of 250,000 tonnes of northern cod was taken each year with no diminution in the fish stocks or any threat to the survival of the species. However, in 1992, Canada, within whose jurisdiction the fishery is constitutionally placed, had to announce the cessation of the cod fishery off the east coast of Canada and the fishing for other species cut because the stocks had been so vastly reduced, thanks to modern fishing technology and overfishing. The northern cod stock is still in danger, with other stocks overfished and in a parlous state as well, although Canada instituted generous programs of assistance to the 30,000 fishermen and fish plant workers affected.
Fierce battles

Oil and Gas: The discovery well at Hibernia was drilled in 1979, but it was 20 years before oil was produced and revenues began to flow in 1999. The first deep well had been drilled off Newfoundland in 1966. Fierce battles raged over these resources and how the revenues should be divided until 1985, when the Atlantic Accord was entered into by the administration of then-PM Brian Mulroney (in which I was a cabinet minister).
In 1974, the Supreme Court of Canada decided that Canada owned the oil and gas resources offshore, just as it had owned the oil and gas resources in what were known as the Dominion lands that came into Canada in 1867, and which became the provinces of Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba as well as Northern Ontario and Quebec. The sub-soil resources were owned by Canada clearly, but in 1912 the sub-soil rights to minerals in Northern Quebec and Northern Ontario were granted to those provinces by Canada. In 1930, the sub-soil rights to oil and gas and other minerals were confirmed to Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba by Canada -- without any compensation to the then maritime provinces.

In fairness, Canada should grant to Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and the other maritime provinces full right, title and property in offshore oil or natural gas. But Canada has refused to treat offshore resources as they treated onshore resources.

The long disputes over the offshore resources were settled by the Mulroney administration with the Atlantic Accord, which states "the right of Newfoundland to be the principal beneficiary of the oil and gas resources off its shores."

But because of the way Canada's equalization program works, there is a clawback so that Newfoundland loses up to 70% of its equalization grants, deducted from provincial oil and gas revenues received through the Atlantic Accord. The result is Newfoundland receives only 14% of the total government revenues from the offshore resources, while Ottawa receives 86%.

Last chance

It is Paul Martin who, since 1999, has led Canada's opposition to Newfoundland and Nova Scotia being the principal beneficiaries of offshore revenues. This is their last chance to become "have" provinces.

Last June 5, when Martin made his commitments to Williams, naturally Williams thought the issue settled, with Newfoundland and Labrador to receive 100% net of provincial revenues from offshore oil, without clawback of any kind.

You can well imagine how the weaseling of Martin and his ministerial minions, Ralph Goodale and John Efford, have aroused the distrust and revulsion of the people of the province, who see the commitments made to them after years of bitter disappointment snatched away once again by a totally untrustworthy and dishonourable government of Canada.

Newfoundlanders need their fellow Canadians to understand what has happened, how they have been betrayed.

Hundreds of millions lost on the Churchill River hydro developments, up to $1 billion that could be lost over 16 years on provincial revenues from offshore oil, and many hundreds of millions since 1992 lost by our fishermen and plant workers and rural Newfoundlanders: Surely enough is enough.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Column...08/850381.html

james t kirk · 01-09-2005, 10:39 AM

Crosbie is right about the hydro power. The rock got screwed by Quebec, and Canada did nothing to stop it. But if memory serves me correct, NFLD was part of the problem, they got out manouvred by Quebec, and a couple of years ago, they simply refused to keep paying Quebec. I don't know if that is still the case.

The fish, I dunno. Seems to me the Newfs did as much over fishing as anyone else and now they want to blame everyone but themselves.

The oil, as far as I am concerned, they are entitled to the same deal that Alberta has. In other words, they get every cent.

Oh, and by the way, if it was the US, the federal gov't would control the entire oil reserve.

JJRousseau · 01-09-2005, 07:25 PM

OFKUO. It's a good topic and I've read it with interest. My opinions are too strong to be objective so I chose to shut my trap. Suffice to say that I love our flag and all it stands for.

Antikarma · 01-10-2005, 09:43 AM

I have to say that on one hand, I have my strong opinions on the subject, but on the other hand, I'm on the other coast. I don't understand the issue well enough yet to verbalize my thoughts, for fear of making a Copps of myself. Off to GoogleLand with me.

OFKU0 · 01-10-2005, 11:56 AM

So the flag is flying again in Newfoundland. I wonder if Paul Martin will address the issues now that the flag is up as he promised. Again I understand that some were disappointed with the premiers actions, but he got the attention he was looking for.

For those so outraged though, and respectfully speaking, I wish that the ire raised over this flag being taken down carried the same weight as Paul Martin taking down the Canadian flags on his fleet of ships for a Bahamian flag I believe, in order to skip paying taxes in Canada and further to hire cheap Romanian labour. Just a thought.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Canadian flag again flying over Newfoundland
CTV.ca News Staff

The Canadian flag is again flying over provincial buildings in Newfoundland and Labrador, on orders from Premier Danny Williams.

Williams ordered all Canadian flags to be removed from government buildings on Dec. 23, after negotiations broke down between the province and Ottawa over offshore oil and natural gas revenue.

He said that Prime Minister Paul Martin had promised during the election campaign in June to allow his province to keep all oil revenues, but then reneged on that promise. In response, Williams pulled down the flags.

The premier says the move sent a clear statement to Ottawa that his province is serious about getting a new deal.

"Our statement with the lowering of the flag was directed to the federal government; however, the statement has been made and now we will be raising the flag as proud Canadians," Williams said in a statement Monday.

"History has proven that the only way to get the attention of the federal government in Newfoundland and Labrador is to get the attention of Canadians. This is exactly what we achieved when we removed the flags."

"Not everyone may have agreed with our decision, but we were able to focus the attention of the country on our issue."

Williams told CTV's Craig Oliver on Question Period Sunday that he has yet to hear from Martin a week after writing to request a new meeting on the oil revenue issue.

"He hasn't even given me, as a premier of a province, the courtesy of a response, and people wonder why we're annoyed?" Williams said.

Martin said last week he was "certainly prepared to take a call from Premier Williams," but suggested he wouldn't negotiate further until the national flag was raised again.

"I do not believe the Canadian flag should be used as a lever in any federal-provincial negotiations," he said at the time.

The flag flap issue turned into one of provincial pride, and divided not only the province but the country.

"When the action was taken, I understood that some Canadians would get annoyed," Williams explained to Oliver.

"But believe me, there are a lot of Canadians from coast to coast in this country, non-Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, who have expressed their significant support for us on that issue," he said.

Williams insisted the move was not one of disrespect; rather, it was to make a point.

"We had to get the Canadians' attention about the deep history of Newfoundland and Labrador, how we've been wronged and slighted by the federal government," he said.

Williams dismissed critics who called Newfoundland and Labrador a have-not province that relies on the goodwill of its wealthier neighbours.

"We're not a have-not province; we're a keep-not province. We have it, we're just not allowed to keep it," he said.

http://g.msn.com/0US!s6.73430_734763/2.b7371/3??cm=CTVNews

12-25-2004, 03:21 PM	#1 (permalink)
OFKU0 Junk	Newfoundland's flag flap 'disrespectful,' PM says Newfoundland's flag flap 'disrespectful,' PM says Last Updated Fri, 24 Dec 2004 14:33:59 EST OTTAWA - The prime minister has slammed Newfoundland and Labrador's premier for ordering all Canadian flags removed from provincial government buildings, condemning the move as "disrespectful." Premier Danny Williams ordered the flags taken down on Thursday, in retaliation for an offer from the federal government on offshore royalties that he called a "slap in the face." Prime Minister Paul Martin said Newfoundland's removal of Canadian flags insults all Canadians. (File photo) FROM DEC. 23, 2004: Maple Leaf flags removed in offshore feud Later in the day, Prime Minister Paul Martin said the move insulted all Canadians. "The premier's actions are disrespectful of our most treasured national symbol," Martin said in a statement. "The flag should not be used as a tool in partisan politics." Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia have been pushing to retain 100 per cent of offshore energy revenues. Currently, Ottawa claws back 70 cents of every dollar through reduced equalization payments. After talks with federal Finance Minister Ralph Goodale on Wednesday failed to produce a deal, Williams said the flags would be kept out of sight until Ottawa offers his province a fair settlement. FROM DEC. 22, 2004: Offshore royalty offer a 'slap in the face': Newfoundland premier Williams, who had set a Christmas deadline for a new deal, insisted he has no intention of continuing to bargain with the federal government. N.S. premier distances himself from Williams Nova Scotia's Premier John Hamm took a more moderate tone, distancing himself from Williams's tactics and saying he will resume negotiations in January. "I have different issues right now than he has. And I have to pursue my issues and I will in the most effective way that I can." The Canadian flag comes down at the Newfoundland and Labrador legislature on Thursday. Goodale had offered a 16-year deal that he says gave the provinces 100 per cent of offshore energy revenues – adding up to as much as $3 billion over several years. But Williams said Ottawa's actual proposal gave the province less than the full revenues. RELATED * Coverage from CBC Newfoundland He also objected to a condition that required Newfoundland to eliminate its $700-million deficit in order to receive increased benefits from offshore revenues beyond eight years. It isn't the first time flags have been used in a fight with Ottawa over oil. In 1982, Newfoundland flew them at half-mast to protest negotiations with the federal government over oil. Written by CBC News Online staff http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...ams041224.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I say good for the Newfoundland premier for standing up to Ottawa. Good for him. As for the Prime Minister speaking for me and all Canadians that we are embarrassed by the actions taken,..well for one I'm not. Newfoundland is getting screwed again. Why doesn't our knowledgable Prime Minister come out and say that Canadians are embarrassed by Quebecs constant bickering about seperation everytime the gravy train slows down? Or how Quebec doesn't pay tax on billions of hydro sold to the U.S? Or how when then Premier Bouchard of Quebec came to Ottawa to collect a couple of hundred million for the Millenium scholarship fund and proceeded to take every Canadian flag out of a room in the Parliament buildings to be replaced with the Quebec provincial flag? And then said he doesn't want Canada to be seen as a funder to Quebec,..in other words lets take the money and say fuck you. And then 3 months later when all the rest of the premiers were in Ottawa to collect their share,..there was Quebec again double dipping. And not to mention how our wonderfully knowledgable Prime Minister said that two tiered healthcare would break up Canada according to Stephen Harper,...then he allows ONLY Quebec to have two tiered healthcare. Any reason that the Newfoundland premier shouldn't be pissed seen as it is a 'have not' province just like Quebec and doesn't get anywhere the same level of nurturing, coddling and burping that is so relevant to the future of 'la belle province?' Discuss. __________________ " In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

12-27-2004, 03:14 PM	#3 (permalink)
Ace_O_Spades The Death Card Location: EH!?!?	I am offended... I was when I read the article, and I am when I think about it. The flag is a symbol of Canada, it's people, and what we stand for. It is not a tool, or something trivial that should be used in retaliation to some political action/sanction. I think it is a slap in the face. __________________ Feh.

01-03-2005, 09:37 PM	#11 (permalink)
skier Rawr! Location: Edmontania	I think the premier wanted to raise awareness in this issue from the rest of canada by lowering the flags- but he sent the wrong message. Newfoundlanders want to recieve the revenues from the oil so that they do not have to recieve equalization (read: handouts) from other provinces. It decreases their dependance on the federal government, even if the actual revenue they receive is the same. It's the source of their revenues that is important, and when the PM changed his "100%" stance that was promised to them, newfie voters and government were understandably upset. I totally agree however that taking down canadian flags was not the right message. Instead of just pissing off the federal government, he's pissed off the rest of canada as well. I'm sure if he had spent a little less time fuming and a little more thinking, he could have found a better way to express his displeasure with Paul Martin and his political agenda. __________________ "Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

01-09-2005, 09:06 AM	#12 (permalink)
OFKU0 Junk	There doesn't seem to be much interest in this topic, but I'll post this anyways. From John Crosbie in todays Toronto Sun. =============================================================== Sun, January 9, 2005 Our beef with Canada By John Crosbie -- For the Toronto Sun Today, I will try to explain what causes the intensity of the feeling in Newfoundland and Labrador over its offshore oil and gas resource dispute with the government of Canada. Last June 5, Prime Minister Paul Martin, in a phone conversation with Premier Danny Williams that was confirmed later on Signal Hill before the press, committed to make sure that the province was "the primary beneficiary of its resources." Martin stated: "I have made it very clear that the proposal that (Williams) has put forth is a proposal that we accept." The failure of Martin since June 5 to carry out his electoral commitment to Newfoundland and Labrador comprises the third major betrayal of the province's vital interests by Canada, with respect to the major assets Newfoundland brought to Confederation when it joined on April 1, 1949. In addition to our strategic geographical position essential to the defence of Canada, we Newfoundlanders brought with us a claim to most of the Atlantic Continental Shelf, comprising millions of square miles later recognized by the UN as part of the Canadian 200-mile economic zone. If Newfoundland had not joined Canada, Newfoundland would have controlled the fish resources and the oil and gas and mineral resources in that huge area, as well as the iron ore and hydro power resources of Labrador. The 56 years since 1949 have seen the vital interests of Newfoundland and Labrador ignored by Canada, with the resources either poorly administered and depleted -- as in the case of the cod and other fish species -- or with the province's economic and revenue needs ignored, as in the development of the offshore and hydro power resources. Shamefully ignored The promise that it should be the primary beneficiary of the offshore resources -- in accordance with the Atlantic Accord on offshore oil and gas resource management and revenue sharing -- has been ignored shamefully by Canada while Newfoundland continues as a "have not" province, its fiscal capacity per capita still only 68.5% of the national average. This is why most people in the province back Williams' position in the Atlantic Accord negotiations with Martin -- and why they are so upset that they also support his decision to remove the flag of Canada from provincial buildings. This all results from Canada's three major betrayals, the details of which should be known to all Canadians: Hydro: The hydro-electric development of the Upper Churchill River in Labrador was initiated in 1953 when Brinco entered an agreement with the government of Newfoundland. Because of geography, Quebec either had to be the customer for the huge quantity of power developed or had to permit the energy developed to be transmitted across Quebec to other purchasers. The result was torturous negotiations with Quebec that continued for 14 years. Canada refused to use its constitutional power to declare this a work "for the general advantage of Canada or two or more of the provinces" which would have prevented Quebec's objections. Instead, Canada believed it to be in the national interest not to aggravate the threat of Quebec separatism. This federal decision was largely responsible for the onerous 65-year contract forced upon Newfoundland and Brinco by Quebec that severely limited prices. During the years since 1974, Quebec has received economic rent from the Upper Churchill Project of $800 million per year while Newfoundland, as the owner of the resource, receives $20 million per year. The development of the Lower Churchill did not proceed and despite seven major negotiations between the two provinces in the 30 years since, two major sites remain undeveloped, with the water running to the sea and Newfoundland and Labrador losing hundreds of millions of dollars of economic rent. How would the people of Ontario or other provinces feel if Quebec was aided by Canada to impose such a deal on them? Fish: The northern cod were fished off Newfoundland by Europeans from 1481 onwards. In the 100 years from 1850 to 1950, an average catch of 250,000 tonnes of northern cod was taken each year with no diminution in the fish stocks or any threat to the survival of the species. However, in 1992, Canada, within whose jurisdiction the fishery is constitutionally placed, had to announce the cessation of the cod fishery off the east coast of Canada and the fishing for other species cut because the stocks had been so vastly reduced, thanks to modern fishing technology and overfishing. The northern cod stock is still in danger, with other stocks overfished and in a parlous state as well, although Canada instituted generous programs of assistance to the 30,000 fishermen and fish plant workers affected. Fierce battles Oil and Gas: The discovery well at Hibernia was drilled in 1979, but it was 20 years before oil was produced and revenues began to flow in 1999. The first deep well had been drilled off Newfoundland in 1966. Fierce battles raged over these resources and how the revenues should be divided until 1985, when the Atlantic Accord was entered into by the administration of then-PM Brian Mulroney (in which I was a cabinet minister). In 1974, the Supreme Court of Canada decided that Canada owned the oil and gas resources offshore, just as it had owned the oil and gas resources in what were known as the Dominion lands that came into Canada in 1867, and which became the provinces of Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba as well as Northern Ontario and Quebec. The sub-soil resources were owned by Canada clearly, but in 1912 the sub-soil rights to minerals in Northern Quebec and Northern Ontario were granted to those provinces by Canada. In 1930, the sub-soil rights to oil and gas and other minerals were confirmed to Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba by Canada -- without any compensation to the then maritime provinces. In fairness, Canada should grant to Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and the other maritime provinces full right, title and property in offshore oil or natural gas. But Canada has refused to treat offshore resources as they treated onshore resources. The long disputes over the offshore resources were settled by the Mulroney administration with the Atlantic Accord, which states "the right of Newfoundland to be the principal beneficiary of the oil and gas resources off its shores." But because of the way Canada's equalization program works, there is a clawback so that Newfoundland loses up to 70% of its equalization grants, deducted from provincial oil and gas revenues received through the Atlantic Accord. The result is Newfoundland receives only 14% of the total government revenues from the offshore resources, while Ottawa receives 86%. Last chance It is Paul Martin who, since 1999, has led Canada's opposition to Newfoundland and Nova Scotia being the principal beneficiaries of offshore revenues. This is their last chance to become "have" provinces. Last June 5, when Martin made his commitments to Williams, naturally Williams thought the issue settled, with Newfoundland and Labrador to receive 100% net of provincial revenues from offshore oil, without clawback of any kind. You can well imagine how the weaseling of Martin and his ministerial minions, Ralph Goodale and John Efford, have aroused the distrust and revulsion of the people of the province, who see the commitments made to them after years of bitter disappointment snatched away once again by a totally untrustworthy and dishonourable government of Canada. Newfoundlanders need their fellow Canadians to understand what has happened, how they have been betrayed. Hundreds of millions lost on the Churchill River hydro developments, up to $1 billion that could be lost over 16 years on provincial revenues from offshore oil, and many hundreds of millions since 1992 lost by our fishermen and plant workers and rural Newfoundlanders: Surely enough is enough. http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Column...08/850381.html __________________ " In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

01-10-2005, 09:43 AM	#15 (permalink)
Antikarma Psycho Location: Yellowknife, NWT	I have to say that on one hand, I have my strong opinions on the subject, but on the other hand, I'm on the other coast. I don't understand the issue well enough yet to verbalize my thoughts, for fear of making a Copps of myself. Off to GoogleLand with me. __________________ "Whoever you are, go out into the evening, leaving your room, of which you know each bit; your house is the last before the infinite, whoever you are."

12-25-2004, 05:42 PM	#2 (permalink)
blitz.fenix Insane Location: Toronto	There are better ways of protesting to Ottawa than taking down the national symbol and refusing to display it. I am abhorred that a Premier would do such a thing. Yes I agree that Newfoundland is being short-handed and the Prime Minister should step up and take some action. As for Quebec I don't know what to say.

12-27-2004, 03:39 PM	#4 (permalink)
El Kaz Crazy Location: Canada	For taking down the flag, well it's a matter of opinion, I find it tasteless personnaly, but I guess it can seem legitimate. What I don't get, however, is what your apparent personnal grief agaisnt Quebec has to do with this issue..?

12-31-2004, 01:48 AM	#8 (permalink)
holymoly Upright	I was in NFLD for a couple weeks in the summer and there's a lot of people who feel very bitter towards the federal gouvernment. I saw a lot of Republic of Newfoundland shirts and whatnot out there, which I'm sure were a joke, but also maybe a little bit serious.

01-02-2005, 07:07 PM	#9 (permalink)
jakewesier Tilted Location: Nova Scotia	it's pretty terrible to think that is going to help their cause any. NFLD has a lot of problems with their economy, moreso then probably any other prov and to piss off the entire country like that I personally don't think was wise at all. But hey, to each their own.

01-03-2005, 04:20 PM	#10 (permalink)
blitz.fenix Insane Location: Toronto	Newfoundland Republican Army, N.R.A Sorry...

01-09-2005, 10:39 AM	#13 (permalink)
james t kirk Junkie Location: Toronto	Crosbie is right about the hydro power. The rock got screwed by Quebec, and Canada did nothing to stop it. But if memory serves me correct, NFLD was part of the problem, they got out manouvred by Quebec, and a couple of years ago, they simply refused to keep paying Quebec. I don't know if that is still the case. The fish, I dunno. Seems to me the Newfs did as much over fishing as anyone else and now they want to blame everyone but themselves. The oil, as far as I am concerned, they are entitled to the same deal that Alberta has. In other words, they get every cent. Oh, and by the way, if it was the US, the federal gov't would control the entire oil reserve.

01-09-2005, 07:25 PM	#14 (permalink)
JJRousseau Psycho Location: Vancouver, Canada	OFKUO. It's a good topic and I've read it with interest. My opinions are too strong to be objective so I chose to shut my trap. Suffice to say that I love our flag and all it stands for.

01-10-2005, 11:56 AM	#16 (permalink)
OFKU0 Junk	So the flag is flying again in Newfoundland. I wonder if Paul Martin will address the issues now that the flag is up as he promised. Again I understand that some were disappointed with the premiers actions, but he got the attention he was looking for. For those so outraged though, and respectfully speaking, I wish that the ire raised over this flag being taken down carried the same weight as Paul Martin taking down the Canadian flags on his fleet of ships for a Bahamian flag I believe, in order to skip paying taxes in Canada and further to hire cheap Romanian labour. Just a thought. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Canadian flag again flying over Newfoundland CTV.ca News Staff The Canadian flag is again flying over provincial buildings in Newfoundland and Labrador, on orders from Premier Danny Williams. Williams ordered all Canadian flags to be removed from government buildings on Dec. 23, after negotiations broke down between the province and Ottawa over offshore oil and natural gas revenue. He said that Prime Minister Paul Martin had promised during the election campaign in June to allow his province to keep all oil revenues, but then reneged on that promise. In response, Williams pulled down the flags. The premier says the move sent a clear statement to Ottawa that his province is serious about getting a new deal. "Our statement with the lowering of the flag was directed to the federal government; however, the statement has been made and now we will be raising the flag as proud Canadians," Williams said in a statement Monday. "History has proven that the only way to get the attention of the federal government in Newfoundland and Labrador is to get the attention of Canadians. This is exactly what we achieved when we removed the flags." "Not everyone may have agreed with our decision, but we were able to focus the attention of the country on our issue." Williams told CTV's Craig Oliver on Question Period Sunday that he has yet to hear from Martin a week after writing to request a new meeting on the oil revenue issue. "He hasn't even given me, as a premier of a province, the courtesy of a response, and people wonder why we're annoyed?" Williams said. Martin said last week he was "certainly prepared to take a call from Premier Williams," but suggested he wouldn't negotiate further until the national flag was raised again. "I do not believe the Canadian flag should be used as a lever in any federal-provincial negotiations," he said at the time. The flag flap issue turned into one of provincial pride, and divided not only the province but the country. "When the action was taken, I understood that some Canadians would get annoyed," Williams explained to Oliver. "But believe me, there are a lot of Canadians from coast to coast in this country, non-Newfoundlanders and Labradorians, who have expressed their significant support for us on that issue," he said. Williams insisted the move was not one of disrespect; rather, it was to make a point. "We had to get the Canadians' attention about the deep history of Newfoundland and Labrador, how we've been wronged and slighted by the federal government," he said. Williams dismissed critics who called Newfoundland and Labrador a have-not province that relies on the goodwill of its wealthier neighbours. "We're not a have-not province; we're a keep-not province. We have it, we're just not allowed to keep it," he said. http://g.msn.com/0US!s6.73430_734763/2.b7371/3??cm=CTVNews __________________ " In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.