ARE GAS PRICES MAKING YOU MAD AS HELL? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

nrclark · 04-29-2006, 10:16 AM

What the #^%@!!!???
I think its fair to assume that people all across Canuckville are scratching their heads over the recent increase in gas prices, but i know that here on the east cost people are "pissed". (all of north america feels the same, i'm sure)
Its like we are at the mercy of a bully in the school yard,. A feeling of total helplessness! (we can't turn around and kick the "bully", Shell or PetroCan in the "nuts", now can we?)
The reason for this post it to pose the question, "what can we do ...if anything"?
The other day i got a "mass" e-mail telling everyone to boycott a couple of the bigger oil companies so as to "fuel", (pardon the pun), a price war, of sorts ... is that realistic?

Is there any way at all to kick our fossil fuel addiction?
What about all the recent talk about renewable fuel sources?
Are we just supposed to lay down and take it?
What are your current or future reactions?

I, for one, ride my bike a lot more now than i used to, i guess i should be thankful for the added health benefits ... but im gonna freeze my go-nads off come the fall ...
Would love to hear view points from others .....

the_marq · 04-29-2006, 10:46 AM

No, not really. Living in Alberta I can see a direct benefit from higher gas prices impacting my local economy. Not to mention the fact that prices are still lower here than in many other places in the world. Additionally, higher prices for gas encourage people to consume less fuel, and that has to be good for the enviroment.

Sure, I wish I could fill the tank on my truck for $20, but I also wish a loaf of bread was 20 cents and beer was a nickel a dozen, but guess what? Its a new reality and new economy.

MexicanOnABike · 04-29-2006, 12:04 PM

i take the bus. so yes. i hate the gas price. they rise the price for bus fare too. when i was in highschool, less than 10years ago, it was 1.50. .it's now 2.35$ it's insane! i know some of it isnt related to the gas but still. i'm a college student dammit! i dont have money to waste!

splck · 04-29-2006, 02:50 PM

Compared to most places in the world our gas is cheap, so no, I don't complain too much. I do get pissed off at how the peices go up just before a holiday weekend.

Maby you should buy energy stocks and start making money on these high fuel prices.

Charlatan · 04-29-2006, 04:42 PM

I either take public transit or I drive my Vespa. The price of gas doesn't greatly effect me. It still cost me less than $5 a week to top up my tank.

Transit fares did go up again recently... we now pay $2.75 per trip. Not cool. Hopefully the money the feds just transfered will go to repair some of the infrastructure and replace the tired streetcars rather than more subways to nowhere...

IMO, the price of gas needs to go up even more. It will make alternative energy sources more economically viable.

blahblah454 · 04-29-2006, 07:23 PM

I would like to take transit more often but the transit system in Calgary just sucks. I feel so ripped off everytime that they raise the price of tickets but do nothing to improve the service. I drive, but now that it is warming up I will be riding my bike much more and driving much less

fresnelly · 04-29-2006, 08:48 PM

Such is life, but I do find way prices fluctuate wildly over the course of a single day frustrating.

james t kirk · 04-29-2006, 08:51 PM

Buy shares in energy companies and join the party.

You'll cheer every time the price of gas goes up.

Cynthetiq · 04-29-2006, 08:53 PM

I take public transportation and walk most days of the week. I have a car that I drive less than 8,000 miles a year.

But I dislike when it costs me $35 to fill up my Neon tank, conversely I'm willing to pay $50 a tank (since I did that for a 1989 Corona in Singapore) because I know that if it hurts me, it's hurting the people who didn't think it through buying the H2, Escalade, Navigator, Denali, etc. filling up with $100+

As far as doing something about it? Write the Sierra Club a thank you note for limiting the building of more refineries instead of pushing for changing the CAFE standards higher than the measly growth it has had in 20+ years. (sorry I'm pissed at those greenies)

highthief · 04-30-2006, 04:57 AM

Personally, I'm thinking we invade Alberta and just take what is rightfully ours!

Fly · 04-30-2006, 07:28 AM

propane.

fuck the gas.

stopped using my gas tanks about 2 years ago........i run strictly propane now.

james t kirk · 04-30-2006, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

As far as doing something about it? Write the Sierra Club a thank you note for limiting the building of more refineries instead of pushing for changing the CAFE standards higher than the measly growth it has had in 20+ years. (sorry I'm pissed at those greenies)

yeah, but, the EPA has only received one (1) application from Big oil since the mid seventies to build a refinery, and it was approved.

In addition, big oil is regularly applying for an receiving permits to expand existing refiineries.

Secondly, big oil has been closing down and rationalizing its production over the years to eliminate excess capacity. (Something like 50% of the refineries in North America were closed in the 1990's.)

Excess capacity = more inventory = lower prices = lower profit.

Blaming the environmentalists is somewhat simplistic.

percy · 04-30-2006, 06:06 PM

i take the bus to work also but still have to fill up the '99 Riviera once in a while and it ain't cheap. At a buck a litre it costs on average about $55-58 when empty to fill. And that's maybe good for 400km city.

Hydrogen car's anyone. I'm in

Cynthetiq · 05-01-2006, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james t kirk

yeah, but, the EPA has only received one (1) application from Big oil since the mid seventies to build a refinery, and it was approved.

In addition, big oil is regularly applying for an receiving permits to expand existing refiineries.

Secondly, big oil has been closing down and rationalizing its production over the years to eliminate excess capacity. (Something like 50% of the refineries in North America were closed in the 1990's.)

Excess capacity = more inventory = lower prices = lower profit.

Blaming the environmentalists is somewhat simplistic.

In reference to building refineries I agree, but what about the CAFE standards which IMO is much more important.

hossified · 05-01-2006, 08:46 AM

i love this argument about how gas prices are higher in other places around the world and we should be happy.....wtf kind of answer is that!?!?! Did their gas prices climb 75% in under 6 months??? Christ, we drill the stuff in our own backyard, yet are getting raped over it.......its f-ing bull-shiit......

nrclark · 05-01-2006, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hossified

i love this argument about how gas prices are higher in other places around the world and we should be happy.....wtf kind of answer is that!?!?! Did their gas prices climb 75% in under 6 months??? Christ, we drill the stuff in our own backyard, yet are getting raped over it.......its f-ing bull-shiit......

This is what im talkin about, how and why are we supposed to just take it????
The reason i started this post is to find out what we can do about it ...

splck · 05-01-2006, 10:45 AM

Quote:

=hossified]i love this argument about how gas prices are higher in other places around the world and we should be happy.....wtf kind of answer is that!?!?! Did their gas prices climb 75% in under 6 months???

Do you think we're the only country that has had spike in their gas price? I'm sure people around the world are asking the same question and being choked that we Canadians are paying so little for our fuel. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the current prices, but when compared to most other places, we got it good.

I don't think you can do much about it other than "take it", ride a bike, don't drive as much, car pool, or even better, buy a Vespa.

hossified · 05-01-2006, 11:41 AM

bingo....there's nothing we can do. Coincidence that the oil companies are showing their biggest profits ever??? Yeah right. Oil and byproducts are a necessity for our modern society......we rely on it for everything......you want to do something about it, drill it and refine it yourself......otherwise we are at the mercy of other peoples greed....

Daoust · 05-01-2006, 12:09 PM

I'm paying over $400 a month for gas to get to my work. I'm having to redo my budgets every month just to try to find money to get us through. There is no bus system on PEI. I'm not in a good place right now, financially speaking, so paying out my ear for gas isn't feeling too good.

percy · 05-01-2006, 01:26 PM

There was an economist on CBC or something that said the oil companies estimate people will finally backlash when prices hit about $1.60-$1.80 a litre. Then they drop the price to about $1.20 a litre and leave it. Then they will only be about .25 cents over the price they should be at fairly.

It'll happen. Honestly just about everything is going up in price and very few people notice or care about so, we'll keep paying.

Leto · 05-01-2006, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by splck

I don't think you can do much about it other than "take it", ride a bike, don't drive as much, car pool, or even better, buy a Vespa.

i would love to ride a Vespa (wife wont let me) ride a bike (do it, but hard to carry my gym clothes, lunch, lap top, meeting notes and binder at the same time for the 13 km to work), car pool (this i have done, but it is klugey). But it is really difficult to navigate a family of 5 anywhere on a regular basis, using transit/bikes. Try leaving No Frills with the regular $200 groceries in a taxi or bus. So I pay the price to fill my VW, but only complain about the elasticity of the prices.

Back in the '70's prices seemed to vary by 2/10's of a cent per GALLON over several days. Not 10/cents per litre within a day!

nrclark · 05-03-2006, 01:34 AM

G.M. is doing something with "corn" ... Ethanol or Methanol burning cars, does anyone see this going anywhere?
At least its renewable ...

hossified · 05-03-2006, 05:50 AM

ethanol has been around for a long time.....ever buy gas at Co-op??? The thing they don't tell you is that newer cars don't run well on it.....especially if you've been running regular gas, than try to switch over.......

Cynthetiq · 05-03-2006, 06:04 AM

USAToday has an article of how US guys are pissed off...

Quote:

Across USA, wave of anger building over gas prices
LINK
Updated 5/3/2006 12:05 AM ET
By the staff of USA TODAY
FRONT ROYAL, Va. — The sunrise turns the night sky pink Tuesday as four travelers meet at the Park 'N Ride lot off Interstate 66 on the eastern edge of the Blue Ridge Mountains.
A nightmare has brought them together: the price of gasoline, which lists at $2.84 for regular, $2.94 for medium and $3.04 for supreme at the Shell and Exxon stations down the street. Their blue Kia van is bound for Washington, 60 miles away. Today, the one-way trip will cost $10.

Jennifer Sperry, 32, works at the U.S. Office of Personnel Management. Her mother, Linda Burnett, 51, is bound for the same agency. Regina Sommers, 39, works at a law firm. And Pete Williams, 53, is building manager at the Reagan federal building.

Two weeks ago they faced the inevitable and formed this carpool, which saves them each more than $300 a month and costs them autonomy, convenience and privacy. Sperry and her mother used to drive in together, just the two of them, free to dish and divulge as they pleased. They don't see each other on weekends; that was their time together.

So begins Tuesday, May 2, another day in the great gasoline price spike of 2006. Across the nation, it will be another day of debating, bemoaning, analyzing, comparing and predicting the cost of a liquid vital to the nation's economy, mobility and sanity. Another day when the price of gas will seem as fundamental as the weather.

PHOTOS: Pain at the pump across the U.S.

Everyone will be affected by it, many will complain about it, and a few will do something about it. But almost no one will disagree that Tuesday was like almost every other day of late. Gas prices are driving us to distraction — minute by minute, mile by mile, cent by cent, from sunrise to sunset, ET.

In Lake Tahoe, Nev., prices at some gas pumps are approaching $3.50 for regular. Record highs are being posted statewide in California, according to a new American Automobile Association survey.

A motorist pulled into the Bradley's Food Mart in Aurora, Colo. Monday, and paid his bill with $34 in change — quarters, nickels and dimes — which took the attendant five minutes to count out.

But at Grand Central Terminal in New York City, some early morning rail commuters quietly relish the prices they don't have to pay. Roby Muntoni, a Bank of America employee, ditched her SUV 18 months ago when she moved from North Carolina: "I couldn't even tell you what prices are right now."

On New York's West Side, cabbie Alvin Adams doesn't feel like he's facing a crisis. His Toyota taxi consumes so much less gas than the standard 4-door, 8-cylinder Fords that he saves $30 a shift. He expects the city's taxi commission to approve a dollar surcharge soon to compensate for the high prices; he says more people are ditching their cars and taking cabs.

7 a.m. Acworth, Ga., Regular: $2.74

The QuikTrip convenience store on U.S. 41 is locked in a price war with a Raceway station across the street. They had the third-lowest gas prices in the Atlanta area on Monday, according to the website gasbuddy.com.

Among those attracted by the warfare:

Bill Marcus, 46. He likes the battle. "These guys can afford to sell gas 15 cents lower than everybody else in town because they're in a gas war. ...Why can't everybody lower their prices that much?"

Raymond Gossett, 37, no longer fills up occasionally with premium gas to clean the fuel injectors in his Honda. Today, he pumps just $7 worth of regular because that's all he has; it's payday.

Belia Lara, 54, who supports herself reselling odds and ends at a flea market, says she sometimes begs strangers for gas money so she can drive her 15-year-old son to therapy for a spinal injury. "I say 'please, please give me some money for gasoline' Sometimes, they give me $5 or $10." She offers her patrons something from her trunk, like a baseball cap. "But they say, 'no, no, it's okay.' "

8 a.m., Melbourne, Fla. Regular: $2.89-$2.95

In the Misty Creek subdivision outside Melbourne, Fla., three crewmembers from M&M Lawn Maintenance steer a fleet of roaring Kubota riding mowers around neat rows of palm trees. Three other workers swing gas-powered edge trimmers, scattering blades of rubbery St. Augustine grass.

M&M co-owner Steve Rose oversees 18 such crews that burn through more than 1,300 gallons of gasoline a month. Rose's fuel bill is now $18,000-$20,000 per month, compared with $14,000-$15,000 late last year. But because of yearly contracts, lawn services like M&M can't easily pass their costs on to consumers. And the business is so competitive, services keep margins low to win those contracts.

Rising gas prices have forced Rose to craft new plans to save gas and maintain profits. For example, he used to send one crew over a five-day period to mow a 900-home subdivision in Port Orange, an hour's drive north. He now sends up three crews to get the job done in one long, hard day. That saves his fleet 280 vehicle miles per week, he says.

Rose is eager to try gas alternatives such as biodiesel fuel. But he doesn't foresee changes coming soon. "The people who have the power to do something about it are the people who are making money from it today."

8:09 a.m. (7:09 a.m CT), Chicago Regular: $2.99

Chris Franczyk, 39, arrives for work in downtown Chicago, having finished another 25-mile commute from the suburbs while watching his gas gauge sink and calculating how soon he'll have to pay another $40 to fill his Saturn Ion.

He's annoyed by the very thought of gas prices ("what I really think about them you can't write down"). He's shopping for a new car that gets better mileage — his gets 23 miles a gallon — but he thinks hybrids are too expensive. And he knows whom to blame for the prices. "Oil companies. Billions of dollars in profits for Mobil Oil? Come on. It's them."

Across the prairie in Iowa, Raymond Repp would be planting corn and soybeans on any other May morning. But recent rains have left his 3,300 acres too wet. That gives the 58-year-old farmer more time to plot ways to combat rising fuel prices, which makes everything more expensive, from fertilizing crops to hauling them to market.

This year, he and his cousin decided to cultivate fewer fields before planting, thus saving about a half gallon of diesel fuel per acre.

Repp bought a 7,500-gallon tank full of diesel in February, paying about $2 a gallon. Now he'd pay $2.80. So he's considering selling grain closer to home, even though the price he gets would be less.

"Does it keep me up at night? No," says Repp, whose family has farmed south of Perry since 1869. "Do I think about it a lot? Yes."

Meanwhile, the business day begins. In Dallas, Remington Oil & Gas Corp. says higher oil and gas prices and strong production drove first-quarter profit up sharply. In New York, oil and gas producer Noble Energy Inc. says its quarterly profit doubled.

10:55 a.m. (9:55 a.m. CT), Madison, Wis. Regular: $2.89

Jen Richter, 21, arrives for class at the University of Wisconsin driving a Honda Aero moped. Richter, who drives all week on less than $2, feels no gas price squeeze. In crowded Madison, she says, parking is a bigger problem.

About 20 minutes later, Jamie Dillon, 23, a student at a Madison technical college, drives up in an aging Buick Century that now costs about $42 to fill up. So Dillon has cut back on groceries, and he plans to move closer to school. And soon, he says, "I'm going to get rid of this, and get a bike."

Outside Denver, Gwen Sterner has an even better idea. She's feeling a bit morally superior as she fills her 2001 Toyota Prius hybrid with $29.59 regular — "the most I've ever paid for gasoline." But she'll drive 650 miles before refueling. "I still can't believe all these people driving these hunkers," Sterner, 60, says of SUVs. "I look at these guys and say, 'You're stupid!' "

By that logic, you might expect sales of gas-guzzlers to be slow at Mount Kisco Chevrolet, Cadillac, Hummer outside New York City. You'd be wrong.

SUVs such as the Chevrolet Suburban and Tahoe sell well, as does the Cadillac Escalade. And the tank-like Hummer? The smaller, more economical H3 "has been gigantic since its introduction last June," says Patrick Holden, a confident 25-year-old salesman. The larger H2, estimated to get about 15 miles per gallon, sells to a niche market pretty much unaffected by gas prices.

"We've had the best March and April that we've had in a long time," says Holden. "People look at the sticker and see what the EPA rating is, but they've been doing that for decades. We're doing great with models that you might think wouldn't be doing so well. We have the blessing of affluence around here."

Liz Kato is not so blessed.

The 41-year-old unemployed receptionist is searching for work in Aurora, Colo. But this morning she's almost run out of gas while driving around looking unsuccessfully for the office of a potential employer.

She pulls into a Sinclair Bradley station to put a mere $10 in the tank of her old SUV. "I hate to think that's the way it's going to stay," she sighs, referring to the price on the pump. She pulls away to continue her search for work.

11:45 a.m. (10:45 a.m. CT), Elmhurst, Ill.

Lunch deliveries are just starting, and the driver for the Red Dragon Chinese Restaurant pays for his own gas. Owner Bob Choi says that, so far, the driver hasn't complained about soaring costs at the pump. But Choi, 54, has plenty of his own concerns: He pays more these days for vegetable and meat deliveries, and his gas bill is up to $800-$900 a month.

"Gas price affects everything," he says. The biggest culprits are the gas jets used in the kitchen to cook the food he serves. "They eat gas like it is water," he says.

Choi, in the restaurant business for 23 years, worries about the impact of rising costs on his bottom line and wonders if he might have to increase what he charges customers. "Raising prices," he says, "is not a good idea."

1:15 p.m. (11:15 a.m. MT), Sand Springs, Mont. Regular: $2.97

The few travelers along the 75-mile stretch of Route 200 between Winnett and Jordan in Eastern Montana pass hundreds of Black Angus cattle, dozens of pronghorn antelope and one gas pump.

Diana Thomas, 52, is in town for the day to work as an elections judge at the one-room schoolhouse. She spends $32.90 on 11 gallons to fill her Chevy Lumina, and wishes she'd done it a day earlier — when the price was 20 cents cheaper. "I don't really have a choice," said Thomas. "It's too far to walk."

Sand Springs consists of Sand Springs Store and Post Office, the Ecumenical Sand Springs Community Church, and the school, which has seven children in kindergarten through eighth grade. The nearest real town is Jordan, where everybody does their shopping. It's 32 miles away. Public transit consists of catching a ride with a neighbor.

Calvin Thomas, 54, a farmer, isn't buying Tuesday. He's driven in on his four-wheel Yamaha Rhino buggy to pick up his mail. He's using the all-terrain vehicle, rather than his Chevy half-ton pickup, more these days to get around the farm.

"Everything we do here takes us 100 miles," he says. "It's a 65-mile round trip just to buy milk."

2 p.m. (1 p.m. CT), Interstate 90 rest area, S.D.-Minn. border

Sitting in his truck with a good cigar and his dog, Hershey, Randy Kostiz appears unconcerned about the gas price crisis. Here's the key:

"I'm old," says Kostiz, 61. "You've still got to live your life. There's no sense fighting windmills."

From home in Forest Ranch, Calif., he and his wife are driving with an RV trailer to visit friends in Hutchinson, Minn., a 2,000-mile trip. No problem, he says: "You've just got to do what you gotta do and not worry about everything else."

4:30 p.m., New York City

Gine Romano, a young, stay-at-home mom from Philadelphia visiting family in New York, opted to travel by Greyhound bus, even though it means toting a stroller, luggage and 1-year-old through the Port Authority Bus Terminal, one of the nation's busiest.

"We used to go out just to go out, (but) now it's only for important errands," says Romano, who shares a car with her mother. Leisure trips have been reduced from four to six times a week to one to three. "Instead of driving to the mall, now we walk to the park," she says. "Things are just getting more and more expensive. I can't even think about what it's going to be like 15 years from now, when my baby is grown up."

5:20 p.m. (2:30 PT), Bermuda Dunes, Calif. Regular: $3.33

George Stock steels himself for the commute home. But instead of opening his wallet to pay for gas, he opens a saddlebag on the 30-year-old 10-speed he rides to and from work.

"These you have to have," says Stock, holding up two miniature bungee cords from the collection he uses to secure items on the bike. He says he can carry everything he needs, from school papers to a 50-pound bag of mortar.

Stock, 63, a substitute teacher, has navigated traffic, desert heat and a stiff breeze to ride about 14 miles between his home and three area schools. Although he's been riding since gas was less than a buck a gallon, the gas price hike has renewed his optimism that more people will trade four wheels for two. "I'm no Lance Armstrong. If I can do it, anybody who is reasonably physically healthy can do it."

6 p.m., Wintersville, Ohio

Step right up, the Bates Brothers carnival is open for thrills and chills. And step quickly, because the rides are open for just four hours — thanks to fuel prices.

Eric Bates, 57, owner of Bates Brothers Amusement Co., says that until recently, the Mardi Gras fun house, The Screamer and The Yo-Yo would run until midnight or longer — as long as people wanted to ride.

On this night, they'll stop in four hours — at 10 p.m. sharp.

Fuel prices are testing Bates' business skills. "It hurts to write a check for $7,000 to keep one generator going for a week," he says.

His company consumes up to 10,000 gallons of diesel fuel a week. Fuel has replaced insurance as his company's second-biggest expense, behind labor costs. So Bates is adjusting that over which he has control: operating hours.

6:10 p.m., Front Royal, Va. Regular: $2.81

The commuters in the blue Kia van pull back into the Park 'N Ride about 75 minutes after leaving Washington.

That business about mother and daughter losing their private time on the road? The mom, Linda Burnett, says she doesn't really miss it.

For one thing, they eat lunch together every day. For another, when it was just the two of them with Jennifer driving, "I never felt like I could sleep, in case it would make her sleepy," Burnett says.

Now, with two others to keep the driver company, Burnett can get her rest. And when neither mother nor daughter are driving, Jennifer can join her. Gas prices may be a nightmare, but for the Burnetts, carpooling works like a dream.

james t kirk · 05-06-2006, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by percy

There was an economist on CBC or something that said the oil companies estimate people will finally backlash when prices hit about $1.60-$1.80 a litre. Then they drop the price to about $1.20 a litre and leave it. Then they will only be about .25 cents over the price they should be at fairly.

It'll happen. Honestly just about everything is going up in price and very few people notice or care about so, we'll keep paying.

I have to agree.

People bitch and complain, but so what?

Until they actually DO something about it, it's all just hot air. The only thing that will lower gasoline prices is reduced demand, or a recession. Since I am not too keen on the latter, and I doubt that North Americans are going to cut back, higher prices are here to stay.

Last year I saw a buck 40 or so was about the highest I remember for a day or two.

The highest I ever paid was $1.32.

One great thing about living in Bloor West in Toronto is that I can walk for pretty much everything I need. Restaurants, stores, bakeries, post office, everything is within walking distance. (Unlike my suburbanite SUV friends who must drive EVERYWHERE for EVERYTHING.)

TTC subway is a 5 minute walk from my front door.

That being said, I work in Mississauga (the most barren wasteland in Canada, a truly gawd-awful place, other than Port Credit, I like Port Credit) so I have no choice but to drive. But, it's a 15 minute drive, so it's not the end of the world.

nrclark · 05-07-2006, 02:50 AM

I agree with Mr. Kirk, until we do "something" then it is just a bunch of hot air. I walk a little more, ride my bike a little more and when i do drive i take care as to not waste any gas by "gunning" the gas peddle or letting the car idle for no reason. I know it aint much but every little bit helps.

What about Hydrogen, is there a future there?

Cynthetiq · 05-07-2006, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nrclark

What about Hydrogen, is there a future there?

Iceland seems to think so.

Quote:

Their ancestors the Vikings are better known for the way they pillaged and despoiled. But now Icelanders are offering to show the rest of the world how best to clean the planet up and protect the fragile resources of the earth.

As world leaders head for the earth summit in Johannesburg, Iceland is embarking on a radical plan to abolish the burning of fossil fuels altogether - by transforming itself into the world's first "hydrogen economy".

It aims to run all its transport and even its huge fishing fleet on hydrogen produced in Iceland itself.

and are already using Hydrogen powered buses:

Quote:

H2/FC CAR MANUFACTURES
Hydrogen Fuel Cell Busses Arrive in Iceland
By PEB
Oct 1, 2003, 16:25

The hydrogen fuel cell busses have arrived in Reykjavik, Iceland. At 10 o'clock the 30th of September a little happy crowd of people were to be found at the cargo-harbour in Reykjavik, welcoming two out of three H2 FC buses from EvoBus (DaimlerChrysler).

Hjalmar Arnason MP commented that 5 years had passed since this idea was first mentioned between an Icelandic delegation and DaimlerChrysler. Until the 5th of October the buses will be used to train the conductors and go through scrutinising checkups and installations.

The busses have been transported across half of the Atlantic Ocean. They will be tested for the first time on the 5th of October, when the public of Reykjavik is invited to have a short ride between the hydrogen fuel station and the Straeto headquarters (the municipal bus company).

The busses will eventually go into normal operation and will refuel at the Shell hydrogen station located in Vesturlandsvegur in the east of the Icelandic capital.

The Reykjavik hydrogen station incorporates machinery, supplied by Norsk Hydro, to produce hydrogen from water by electrolysis. All of Iceland’s electricity is generated from hydroelectric and geothermal sources

Nimetic · 05-08-2006, 04:40 AM

One thing that bothers me... in the midst of all this our local government has announced plans for big new road spending.

Yes roads.

Martian · 05-09-2006, 08:18 AM

Iceland can do that because they're already operating independent of fossil fuels for their power grid. Over here, it's much more complicated.

The problem stems from the fact that hydrogen is inefficient. The fuel itself is powerful and clean burning, but extracting it via electrolysis consumes more energy than we gain from it. That ends up being a net loss and the energy has to come from somewhere. In North America that somewhere ends up being primarily the oil and coal fueled stations that are still providing a large portion of our power demand. Taken from that perspective, hydrogen as a fuel is just as likely to cause more pollution, not less. And we still don't solve the shortage problem.

Not to mention that we'd have a much harder time installing the necessary infrastructure. It's not just obtaining the hydrogen, it's distributing it that's a hurdle as well. That could cost billions of dollars to implement, further reducing the economic gain of hydrogen.

And that's not even getting into the safety and storage issues. I have no idea what Iceland is doing on that front.

Cynthetiq · 05-09-2006, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian

Iceland can do that because they're already operating independent of fossil fuels for their power grid. Over here, it's much more complicated.

The problem stems from the fact that hydrogen is inefficient. The fuel itself is powerful and clean burning, but extracting it via electrolysis consumes more energy than we gain from it. That ends up being a net loss and the energy has to come from somewhere. In North America that somewhere ends up being primarily the oil and coal fueled stations that are still providing a large portion of our power demand. Taken from that perspective, hydrogen as a fuel is just as likely to cause more pollution, not less. And we still don't solve the shortage problem.

Not to mention that we'd have a much harder time installing the necessary infrastructure. It's not just obtaining the hydrogen, it's distributing it that's a hurdle as well. That could cost billions of dollars to implement, further reducing the economic gain of hydrogen.

And that's not even getting into the safety and storage issues. I have no idea what Iceland is doing on that front.

I'd have to parallel that thought with the conversion from whale oil products to fossil oil. People said it was expensive to drill into the earth instead of floating on a boat. Then you still have to refine it and there weren't refineries for crude oil back then. The infrastructure had to be built.

KnifeMissile · 05-09-2006, 05:01 PM

I don't know, I still think people who complain about gas prices are a bunch of whiners. Really, the price of gas has finally caught up with the price of milk. Sell the SUV. Buy a smaller car. Take public transit. Or, pay for the gas to run your luxury items. I have always found it weird that everyone and their dog owns a car. It's at the point where it's hard to cross a street because there's a constant funeral procession running through it! Maybe high gas prices will make people think twice about buying a car.

...And if you really think it's the gas companies colluding to raise profits then you should seriously consider buying yourself some of their stock...

Martian · 05-10-2006, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

I'd have to parallel that thought with the conversion from whale oil products to fossil oil. People said it was expensive to drill into the earth instead of floating on a boat. Then you still have to refine it and there weren't refineries for crude oil back then. The infrastructure had to be built.

It's important to note that saying it's not economically viable now doesn't mean it never will be. There was a time when the oil sands out in Alberta weren't economically viable either, but they're looking mighty attractive these days.

I'm still interested to know how Iceland is getting past the technical hurdles. Primarily the storage issue... hydrogen is not cheap to produce and store in large quantities. You can add a chemical reagent and store it as ammonia (for example) but that's even less efficient in terms of energy. I suppose when you're Iceland and have as much excess as they do it's less of an issue.

cdnjeepin · 05-11-2006, 06:09 AM

For people in bigger citys..transit systems are possible, but for where I am...there is no bus system...you either, walk, bike or drive..and I live 15kms from work..which I am not walking, i do bike it sometimes..but really..its a necessity for me to drive.

Now what I don't get is that we are the 2nd largest supplier of crude oil to the US..we also refine it here, ship it to the US and then BUY IT BACK...WTF???

Personally I think the GST needs to be taken out of Gas and home heating oil, propane etc...it is a necessity.. And for those who say its not a necessity but a luxury are crazy...I will agree that driving the big H1 or a Lexus or something along that line is a luxury..but for most of us..gas is a necessity..we need to go get groceries, get to work, etc...In some places I am sure you can use a transit system to do that..but a lot of the smaller communitites that Canada is made up of does not have that benefit.

But they will never take the GST out of it..every time gas goes up...they make how many more millions in GST??

So what can we do?? probably nothing..until prices for everything get so high that the economy goes into a recession..I know costs keep going up for me, hydro, cable, phone, gas, etc, etc...but my paycheck doesn't go up...so that means I have even less spendable income..

Oh and before someone tells me to move closer to work...I live 15mins from work..which is the country here, so my 1.36acres and small house is worth about 85K..now if I moved that into where I work..its probably 150K home now..and i would have a building lot..and not 1.36 acres..So by moving closer I would lose my equity, have a higher mortgage payment, and higher Ins payments

james t kirk · 05-11-2006, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdnjeepin

Personally I think the GST needs to be taken out of Gas and home heating oil, propane etc...it is a necessity..

Nope, totally disagree.

Gas taxes haven't been raised in going on 10 years.

The pain you are feeling is a result of two things:

1. Higher cost of crude.

2. Oil companies rationalizing their production.

If they scrapped the GST on fuel, big oil would take up the gap in about a week.

cdnjeepin · 05-12-2006, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james t kirk

Nope, totally disagree.

Gas taxes haven't been raised in going on 10 years.

The pain you are feeling is a result of two things:

1. Higher cost of crude.

2. Oil companies rationalizing their production.

If they scrapped the GST on fuel, big oil would take up the gap in about a week.

But GST is only supposed to be on items that are not a necessity..that was the orginal plan to the GST..but now its on everything..

highthief · 05-12-2006, 04:03 AM

The problem with GST on gas is that is a tax on a tax.

But I agree that withdrawing the GST (on anything) only means the manufacturers will jack their prices and hope the consumer doesn't notice the difference.

mokle · 05-12-2006, 10:57 PM

It's greed, pure and simple.

I wish more stations and cars supported natural gas. I've personally worked on over 1000 producing natural gas wells, I can assure you we have an insane supply of it.

KnifeMissile · 05-20-2006, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdnjeepin

Personally I think the GST needs to be taken out of Gas and home heating oil, propane etc...it is a necessity.. And for those who say its not a necessity but a luxury are crazy...I will agree that driving the big H1 or a Lexus or something along that line is a luxury..but for most of us..gas is a necessity..we need to go get groceries, get to work, etc...In some places I am sure you can use a transit system to do that..but a lot of the smaller communitites that Canada is made up of does not have that benefit.

I do believe that most Canadians live in cities so, no, for most of us, gas is not a necessity.

Quote:

So what can we do?? probably nothing..until prices for everything get so high that the economy goes into a recession..I know costs keep going up for me, hydro, cable, phone, gas, etc, etc...but my paycheck doesn't go up...so that means I have even less spendable income..

Oh and before someone tells me to move closer to work...I live 15mins from work..which is the country here, so my 1.36acres and small house is worth about 85K..now if I moved that into where I work..its probably 150K home now..and i would have a building lot..and not 1.36 acres..So by moving closer I would lose my equity, have a higher mortgage payment, and higher Ins payments

You know, if you live 15kms from work, even if gas were a buck a litre, it would still cost you less than two dollars a day to commute to work, including the round trip. I don't recall what gas prices used to be but even if they have quadrupled, it still amounts to a cup of coffee a day. If you can't budget an extra cup of coffee for your day than you had bigger financial issues than the price of gas!

nrclark · 05-31-2006, 09:59 PM

.... he said he lived 15 kilometers from work, not 15 meters.
How the hell can you drive 30 kms on "the price of a cup of coffee"? ... unless you are driving a scooter? (and they're not practical in Canada for ten months of the year)

leftwingx · 06-21-2006, 12:32 PM

You could always do what many Albertan's do:

1) Invest heavily in your choice of Oil and Gas companies (extra points for choosing one with a sizeable investment in the oil sands).

2) Upgrade your vehicle to a truck or SUV and happily consume even more gas.

3) (Optional) Retire.

I haven't reached step 3) status yet, but I'm sure happy when the price of oil increases...

04-29-2006, 10:16 AM	#1 (permalink)
nrclark Tilted Location: Canada	ARE GAS PRICES MAKING YOU MAD AS HELL? What the #^%@!!!??? I think its fair to assume that people all across Canuckville are scratching their heads over the recent increase in gas prices, but i know that here on the east cost people are "pissed". (all of north america feels the same, i'm sure) Its like we are at the mercy of a bully in the school yard,. A feeling of total helplessness! (we can't turn around and kick the "bully", Shell or PetroCan in the "nuts", now can we?) The reason for this post it to pose the question, "what can we do ...if anything"? The other day i got a "mass" e-mail telling everyone to boycott a couple of the bigger oil companies so as to "fuel", (pardon the pun), a price war, of sorts ... is that realistic? Is there any way at all to kick our fossil fuel addiction? What about all the recent talk about renewable fuel sources? Are we just supposed to lay down and take it? What are your current or future reactions? I, for one, ride my bike a lot more now than i used to, i guess i should be thankful for the added health benefits ... but im gonna freeze my go-nads off come the fall ... Would love to hear view points from others .....

04-29-2006, 10:46 AM	#2 (permalink)
the_marq All hail the Mountain King Location: Black Mesa	No, not really. Living in Alberta I can see a direct benefit from higher gas prices impacting my local economy. Not to mention the fact that prices are still lower here than in many other places in the world. Additionally, higher prices for gas encourage people to consume less fuel, and that has to be good for the enviroment. Sure, I wish I could fill the tank on my truck for $20, but I also wish a loaf of bread was 20 cents and beer was a nickel a dozen, but guess what? Its a new reality and new economy. __________________ The Truth: Johnny Cash could have kicked Bruce Lee's ass if he wanted to. #3 in a series

04-29-2006, 12:04 PM	#3 (permalink)
MexicanOnABike Location: up north	i take the bus. so yes. i hate the gas price. they rise the price for bus fare too. when i was in highschool, less than 10years ago, it was 1.50. .it's now 2.35$ it's insane! i know some of it isnt related to the gas but still. i'm a college student dammit! i dont have money to waste! __________________ - Movie Reviews - Ratings-

04-29-2006, 02:50 PM	#4 (permalink)
splck it's jam Location: Lowerainland BC	Compared to most places in the world our gas is cheap, so no, I don't complain too much. I do get pissed off at how the peices go up just before a holiday weekend. Maby you should buy energy stocks and start making money on these high fuel prices. __________________ nice line eh?

04-29-2006, 04:42 PM	#5 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I either take public transit or I drive my Vespa. The price of gas doesn't greatly effect me. It still cost me less than $5 a week to top up my tank. Transit fares did go up again recently... we now pay $2.75 per trip. Not cool. Hopefully the money the feds just transfered will go to repair some of the infrastructure and replace the tired streetcars rather than more subways to nowhere... IMO, the price of gas needs to go up even more. It will make alternative energy sources more economically viable. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

04-29-2006, 07:23 PM	#6 (permalink)
blahblah454 Let's put a smile on that face Location: On the road...	I would like to take transit more often but the transit system in Calgary just sucks. I feel so ripped off everytime that they raise the price of tickets but do nothing to improve the service. I drive, but now that it is warming up I will be riding my bike much more and driving much less

04-29-2006, 08:48 PM	#7 (permalink)
fresnelly Functionally Appropriate Location: Toronto	Such is life, but I do find way prices fluctuate wildly over the course of a single day frustrating. __________________ Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

04-29-2006, 08:51 PM	#8 (permalink)
james t kirk Junkie Location: Toronto	Buy shares in energy companies and join the party. You'll cheer every time the price of gas goes up.

04-29-2006, 08:53 PM	#9 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	I take public transportation and walk most days of the week. I have a car that I drive less than 8,000 miles a year. But I dislike when it costs me $35 to fill up my Neon tank, conversely I'm willing to pay $50 a tank (since I did that for a 1989 Corona in Singapore) because I know that if it hurts me, it's hurting the people who didn't think it through buying the H2, Escalade, Navigator, Denali, etc. filling up with $100+ As far as doing something about it? Write the Sierra Club a thank you note for limiting the building of more refineries instead of pushing for changing the CAFE standards higher than the measly growth it has had in 20+ years. (sorry I'm pissed at those greenies) __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

04-30-2006, 04:57 AM	#10 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	Personally, I'm thinking we invade Alberta and just take what is rightfully ours! __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

04-30-2006, 07:28 AM	#11 (permalink)
Fly see the links to my music? Location: Beautiful British Columbia	propane. fuck the gas. stopped using my gas tanks about 2 years ago........i run strictly propane now. __________________ BASTARD SterlingStudios

04-30-2006, 06:06 PM	#13 (permalink)
percy Addict	i take the bus to work also but still have to fill up the '99 Riviera once in a while and it ain't cheap. At a buck a litre it costs on average about $55-58 when empty to fill. And that's maybe good for 400km city. Hydrogen car's anyone. I'm in

05-01-2006, 08:46 AM	#15 (permalink)
hossified face f$cker Location: canada	i love this argument about how gas prices are higher in other places around the world and we should be happy.....wtf kind of answer is that!?!?! Did their gas prices climb 75% in under 6 months??? Christ, we drill the stuff in our own backyard, yet are getting raped over it.......its f-ing bull-shiit......

05-01-2006, 11:41 AM	#18 (permalink)
hossified face f$cker Location: canada	bingo....there's nothing we can do. Coincidence that the oil companies are showing their biggest profits ever??? Yeah right. Oil and byproducts are a necessity for our modern society......we rely on it for everything......you want to do something about it, drill it and refine it yourself......otherwise we are at the mercy of other peoples greed....

05-01-2006, 12:09 PM	#19 (permalink)
Daoust "I'm sorry. What was the question?" Location: Paradise Regained	I'm paying over $400 a month for gas to get to my work. I'm having to redo my budgets every month just to try to find money to get us through. There is no bus system on PEI. I'm not in a good place right now, financially speaking, so paying out my ear for gas isn't feeling too good. __________________ I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

05-01-2006, 01:26 PM	#20 (permalink)
percy Addict	There was an economist on CBC or something that said the oil companies estimate people will finally backlash when prices hit about $1.60-$1.80 a litre. Then they drop the price to about $1.20 a litre and leave it. Then they will only be about .25 cents over the price they should be at fairly. It'll happen. Honestly just about everything is going up in price and very few people notice or care about so, we'll keep paying.

05-03-2006, 01:34 AM	#22 (permalink)
nrclark Tilted Location: Canada	G.M. is doing something with "corn" ... Ethanol or Methanol burning cars, does anyone see this going anywhere? At least its renewable ...

05-03-2006, 05:50 AM	#23 (permalink)
hossified face f$cker Location: canada	ethanol has been around for a long time.....ever buy gas at Co-op??? The thing they don't tell you is that newer cars don't run well on it.....especially if you've been running regular gas, than try to switch over.......

05-07-2006, 02:50 AM	#26 (permalink)
nrclark Tilted Location: Canada	I agree with Mr. Kirk, until we do "something" then it is just a bunch of hot air. I walk a little more, ride my bike a little more and when i do drive i take care as to not waste any gas by "gunning" the gas peddle or letting the car idle for no reason. I know it aint much but every little bit helps. What about Hydrogen, is there a future there? Last edited by nrclark; 05-07-2006 at 02:54 AM..

05-08-2006, 04:40 AM	#28 (permalink)
Nimetic Junkie Location: Melbourne, Australia	One thing that bothers me... in the midst of all this our local government has announced plans for big new road spending. Yes roads.

05-09-2006, 08:18 AM	#29 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	Iceland can do that because they're already operating independent of fossil fuels for their power grid. Over here, it's much more complicated. The problem stems from the fact that hydrogen is inefficient. The fuel itself is powerful and clean burning, but extracting it via electrolysis consumes more energy than we gain from it. That ends up being a net loss and the energy has to come from somewhere. In North America that somewhere ends up being primarily the oil and coal fueled stations that are still providing a large portion of our power demand. Taken from that perspective, hydrogen as a fuel is just as likely to cause more pollution, not less. And we still don't solve the shortage problem. Not to mention that we'd have a much harder time installing the necessary infrastructure. It's not just obtaining the hydrogen, it's distributing it that's a hurdle as well. That could cost billions of dollars to implement, further reducing the economic gain of hydrogen. And that's not even getting into the safety and storage issues. I have no idea what Iceland is doing on that front. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

05-09-2006, 05:01 PM	#31 (permalink)
KnifeMissile Location: Waterloo, Ontario	I don't know, I still think people who complain about gas prices are a bunch of whiners. Really, the price of gas has finally caught up with the price of milk. Sell the SUV. Buy a smaller car. Take public transit. Or, pay for the gas to run your luxury items. I have always found it weird that everyone and their dog owns a car. It's at the point where it's hard to cross a street because there's a constant funeral procession running through it! Maybe high gas prices will make people think twice about buying a car. ...And if you really think it's the gas companies colluding to raise profits then you should seriously consider buying yourself some of their stock...

05-11-2006, 06:09 AM	#33 (permalink)
cdnjeepin Crazy Location: Truro, Nova Scotia	For people in bigger citys..transit systems are possible, but for where I am...there is no bus system...you either, walk, bike or drive..and I live 15kms from work..which I am not walking, i do bike it sometimes..but really..its a necessity for me to drive. Now what I don't get is that we are the 2nd largest supplier of crude oil to the US..we also refine it here, ship it to the US and then BUY IT BACK...WTF??? Personally I think the GST needs to be taken out of Gas and home heating oil, propane etc...it is a necessity.. And for those who say its not a necessity but a luxury are crazy...I will agree that driving the big H1 or a Lexus or something along that line is a luxury..but for most of us..gas is a necessity..we need to go get groceries, get to work, etc...In some places I am sure you can use a transit system to do that..but a lot of the smaller communitites that Canada is made up of does not have that benefit. But they will never take the GST out of it..every time gas goes up...they make how many more millions in GST?? So what can we do?? probably nothing..until prices for everything get so high that the economy goes into a recession..I know costs keep going up for me, hydro, cable, phone, gas, etc, etc...but my paycheck doesn't go up...so that means I have even less spendable income.. Oh and before someone tells me to move closer to work...I live 15mins from work..which is the country here, so my 1.36acres and small house is worth about 85K..now if I moved that into where I work..its probably 150K home now..and i would have a building lot..and not 1.36 acres..So by moving closer I would lose my equity, have a higher mortgage payment, and higher Ins payments Last edited by cdnjeepin; 05-11-2006 at 06:48 AM..

05-12-2006, 04:03 AM	#36 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	The problem with GST on gas is that is a tax on a tax. But I agree that withdrawing the GST (on anything) only means the manufacturers will jack their prices and hope the consumer doesn't notice the difference. __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

05-12-2006, 10:57 PM	#37 (permalink)
mokle Psycho Location: Alberta, Canada	It's greed, pure and simple. I wish more stations and cars supported natural gas. I've personally worked on over 1000 producing natural gas wells, I can assure you we have an insane supply of it. __________________ Mokle "Your hands can't hit what your eyes can't see" -Ali

05-31-2006, 09:59 PM	#39 (permalink)
nrclark Tilted Location: Canada	.... he said he lived 15 kilometers from work, not 15 meters. How the hell can you drive 30 kms on "the price of a cup of coffee"? ... unless you are driving a scooter? (and they're not practical in Canada for ten months of the year)

06-21-2006, 12:32 PM	#40 (permalink)
leftwingx Upright Location: Calgary, AB	You could always do what many Albertan's do: 1) Invest heavily in your choice of Oil and Gas companies (extra points for choosing one with a sizeable investment in the oil sands). 2) Upgrade your vehicle to a truck or SUV and happily consume even more gas. 3) (Optional) Retire. I haven't reached step 3) status yet, but I'm sure happy when the price of oil increases... __________________ Happiness is just a roughing penalty away.