zenmaster10665

How could someone so cute be so silly?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/Movi....ap/index.html

I wonder what she will think when he starts talking about the spaceships and our impending alien enslavement.

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guthmund

From what I gather, (I have a lot of free time at work )she's very serious about it.

Stories about the whole thing are all over the internet. The gist of it being that Holmes spends an awful lot of time in the company of some sort of roving band of Scientologists. From what I understand they've been going out with her on her press junkets for Batman Begins and such. They supposedly spent a lot of time sequestered in a small room during the MTV Movie awards and, Cruise's sister (I think it's his sister..), who's also a big Scientologist, has been sitting in on Holmes' interviews and such lately.

There's a whole movement on the internet (well, what doesn't have a whole movement on the internet...oy vey) selling t-shirts and such.. Here's a link I pulled off of google selling shirts...


Kind of odd, from reading interviews and such, I always thought she had a pretty good head on her shoulders. In the end and despite the stuff I've posted, I don't really care all that much. I mean, Tom Cruise is a much bigger nut, in my opinion, but I'll probably go see War of the Worlds. As long as they're not outside my house throwing shitty L. Ron Hubbard books at my door...then we might have a problem.

I'd be interested in how many, if any, Scientologists we have here on the boards. I haven't seen anything from any particular member, but I could have missed something, I guess.

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maleficent

Saw on some silly show that Cruise's sister is now Katie Holme's (Or Kate as he refers to her as -- guess it makes her seem a little older and is not robbing the cradle) press agent. (Which is why she sits in on the interviews)

This is not a religion I understand... I am not sure what it is that they completely stand for (It's disturbing to me that the founder of this religion is a Science Fiction Writer -- so is the religion Science Fiction?)

Ahh -- What they stand for:
A civilization without insanity, without criminals and without war, where the able can prosper and honest beings can have rights, and where man is free to rise to greater heights, are the aims of Scientology. —

Not that I really care about what celebrities do, but when Tom Cruise made the comments to and about Brooke Shields for her use of anti-depressants to treat post partum depression after the birth of her child... all I could think is what business is it of yours/ I seem to recall him suing one of the gossip magazines for printing stuff that was no one's business -but yet it's OK for him to dictate what someone else thinks is right for them.

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Charlatan

If she is a Scientologist then all my questions have been answered...

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FloydianOne

can someone please explain what scientology is exactly... and yes i would like to hear the weird details not just the textbook definition. thank you.

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maleficent

well this group doesnt think too highly of it...
http://www.xenu.net/roland-intro.html
The Church of Scientology is a vicious and dangerous cult that masquerades as a religion. Its purpose is to make money. It practices a variety of mind-control techniques on people lured into its midst to gain control over their money and their lives. Its aim is to take from them every penny that they have and can ever borrow and to also enslave them to further its wicked ends.
It was started in the 1950s by a science fiction writer named L. Ron Hubbard in fulfilment to his declared aim to start a religion to make money. It is an offshoot to a method of psychotherapy he concocted from various sources which he named "Dianetics". Dianetics is a form of regression therapy. It was then further expanded to appear more like a religion in order to enjoy tax benefits. He called it "Scientology".

Scientology is a confused concoction of crackpot, dangerously applied psychotherapy, oversimplified, idiotic and inapplicable rules and ideas and science-fiction drivel that is presented to its members (at the "advanced" levels) as profound spiritual truth.

However, going over to.... http://www.religioustolerance.org/scientol1.htm

Scientology recognizes "Eight Dynamics." A "dynamic" is an urge, drive or impulse. Understanding these dynamics help a person gain insight and harmonize all their life activities. The first four dynamics were initially described by Mr. Hubbard in Dianetics; the remaining four were added with the creation of Scientology: The First Dynamic is the urge to survive as oneself.
The second the urge to survive through family and sex.
The third is to survive in various groups such as a company or with a group of friends.
The fourth is to survive as mankind.
The fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth are the urge to survive through other life forms such as animals, the physical universe, the spiritual universe and Infinity or God respectively

That sounds pretty reasonable...

I've spent over an hour on their site, I can see where they are all about money (but what religion really isn't) Idon't get the celebrity appeal of it, but then again, i don't get the celebrity appeal of Kabballah either... I'm getting stupider in my old age, every anti-Scientology site says they are a brainwashing cult, but looking at the description on religious tolerance.org - it seems like a reasonable belief...

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zen_tom

It's a religion, self-help regime, or set of techniques that were developed by L. Ron Hubbard, the 50s Sci-Fi writer. It uses self-hypnosis techniques (which could arguably be similar to those used in eastern meditative religions and Crowley's, Wiccan and other spell-casting or deep prayer religions) to create feelings of warmth and euphoria, as well as to help achieve one's personally defined goals. They believe that a person is a spiritual being, literally, a being separate to the body, or rather, one that is trapped within the body, unaware of what it is truely capable of.

More is learned as one becomes more involved in the religion, and it is rumoured that the more advanced people are taught that they are inhabited by hundreds of alien spirits, each of which confuse and abberate the central, 'thetan' that is the true identity of the individual. Later revelations are classed as secret and a number of attempts at revealing them have resulted in heavy-handed usage of libel laws as a method of silencing dissenters.

The study, or involvement in scientology aims to improve the condition of one's spiritual being by taking it through a series of techniques designed to free it, or clear it of abbarations caused by traumatic events that occur both during this lifetime, and also in previous ones. Both in the human manifestation, and in other, less evolved forms.

Some of the controvosy is due to the way the people behind it use selling techniques to recruit people (one of which may might include actively recruiting hollywood celebrities). There is also the morally questionable method of witholding involvement unless people pay 'donations', or work to recruit others. In a similar way, other religions have come under fire for 'selling' God, or for asking their members to pay money in order to show their commitment.

I want to be as fair as possible about this, and hope I've given a rounded picture - if not, there are many web sites that can be found both in favour, and against. Some of the critical websites have been silenced, or removed from google's primary search results - however, they can be reached either via direct links, or by following Google's explanation of their pulling the listing.

ForgottenKnight

Scientology is a brainwashing cult that only is reconized as an official religion because it sued for it. The cult filed so many lawsuits against the government for not reconizing them that it would cost more for the government to sort through and defend them all than to pay them. The Cult then turned to congress and told them they's drop all the lawsuits if they were reconized as an official religion. So to save billions of dollars, the United States government declaired them an official religion. They then took over a plesent retirment town in Florida. When they did that, they turned it into hell for everyone living there that wasn't a member of the cult. They forced businesses to pay them a large percentage of their profits each month or boycotted them and did other things which forced non-paying companies to go out of business in that town.

DO NOT GET INVOLVED IN THIS CULT!

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zenmaster10665

Alright, I am convinced.

Tom is inhabited by an alien force whose sole purpose is to bang as many hot chicks in hollywood as possible, brainwash them and send them out to make movies worse than the ones in his repertoire.

FREE KATIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!![I]

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He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
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aKula

Though what they stand for sounds reasonable their religion has some thing to do with aliens. Now I don't mind people following such a thing, I mean atheists will say christianity is total bullshit aswell. What I have a problem with is that the religion was set up to make money. The founder is quoted as saying that being a writer won't make one rich you have to create a religion. From what I understand, people must donate a set ammount to be included in the religion. Their "Bible" is copyrighted and they have threatened to sue when someone posted a section of it on slashdot. Even worse are the stories about their intimidation tactics.
I am not completley happy with mine (and others) arguments againts scientology (it becomes somewhat tricky as I am Christian, and weigh up how my arguments could be used againts Christianity aswell). I just have a bad feeling about Scientology.

asaris

They were also involved in a number of kidnapping cases in Europe...

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"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

zen_tom

I do think we should approach this with some display of tolerance. I think the initial poster was a bit out of line posting what is little more than an incitement to slag-off Scientology in a philosophical forum.

My concern is that we've not really made any philosophical points about this at all - I think we should either kill the thread, move it to a more suitable forum (something where celebrity chat might be more acceptable) and leave it at that.

maleficent

I concur...

Feel free to talk about Katie and Tom, or celebrities and their choices of religion, but leave the slamming of Scientology at the door please...

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zenmaster10665

How do ya figure?? If I had truly wanted to slag off scientology I would have brought back one of the former threads on the subject...

And, for the record, I did not slam scientology at all...The aliens and spaceships *are* part of their philosophy.

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He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
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Reese

I cannot even begin to understand this religion, but I can totally understand how a celebrity can get involved with it. It's less about the beliefs of the religion, and more about the community that the religion offers.

As for Kabbalah, If I understand it correctly, It's basically a "Kabbalah Lite" as I've heard it called. I don't know alot about the religion, but with quotes like:

I can't help but put it in the same category as Scientology.

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Lead543

http://whatis.scientology.org/home.htm

I question how interested in this..."group" she actually is, or if she's just taking it on to please her boyfriend.

I also find it weird that she grew up with a poster of him on her wall. Is she actually in love with him or is a starstruck 13 year old falling in love with what's written in magazines coming out?

warrrreagl

Is this everybody's first encounter with Hollywood? This is the entertainment industry, folks, and the only rule is that "Thou shalt do whatever is necessary to promote your product."

Tom Cruise has a new movie coming out. Katie Holmes has a new movie coming out. Wow, what a big coincidence that they both happen to be grabbing tons of headlines right now. Their relationship is about as solid and real as Angelina Jolie/Brad Pitt or Eminem/Kim Basinger. Once their movies have died down, then the relationship will magically vanish.

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pan6467

I don't necessarily like Scientology nor would I ever recommend it to anyone, however... they have a great recovery rate for helping addicts. That alone deserves my respect.

People may say it's a brainwash,all about money and yadda, yadda, yadda, but in all honesty, my opinion is that many organized religions are.

In most cases it has been my experience if I go to a Baptist church, Catholic church, Jewish synogogue, two things stand out:

a) if you do not believe as they do you are shunned and looked upon with suspicion

b) they are constantly trying to get money from me.

Those have been my experiences, so in that aspect Scientology is no different.

I wish Katie Holmes the best of luck, if this is the road she chooses to travel perhaps there is a reason for it.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

zenmaster10665

good point...look at Paris Hilton/Abi Titmus/etc...

It may definitely be press manipulation....

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He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
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Halx

Plenty of good stuff in this thread. I've always enjoyed the crazy scientology talk. I like how everyone has something new to add... some new story I haven't heard before about the cult. It sorta leads me to believe that none of it is true. There are too many opinions for a + b = c. It's gotta be d, none of the above.

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Stompy

I feel sorry for these people. I really do. How could you be any more weak minded... unless, of course, you are doing it purely for media attention.

Scientology is a joke. It just pisses me off when I read this stuff about these stars so casually joining as if everything is a-okay. Yeah please, there was a nuclear war billions of years ago on earth and yadda yadda... right. Here, I have a fork. It was used by Darth Vader a long time ago from some galaxy far far away. Worship it, and while you're at it, give me some money.

These stars totally lose my repsect... big time.

Sure, big money folks like Tom Cruise and John Travolta are virtually untouched within the church (and of course, they do have the funds to dish out), but your average person is sucked dry of cash and it's damn near impossible to leave. If you do, you become an enemy of the church and are more or less harassed for the rest of your life.

I've downloaded and read quite a bit on this some years back (Dianetics, the various levels of OT, affidavits, court cases, etc). This shit's no joke. I really don't get how they're legally allowed to operate.

...and just because they cure addicts doesn't mean anything. Various clinics around the country do the same thing and majority are covered by insurance, so no need to sell your house and devote your life to it.

There's a reason why they hate psychologists and psychiatrists.

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kutulu

It's strange, Scientologists are like the 20th Century version of the Mormons. It was basically founded by 'some guy' that makes claims that seem preposterous to those outside of the religion. Both faiths have all sorts of secrecy involved in their ceremonies/practices that only members with high enough standing can participate in or even know about. Both make recruitment very important to lesser members, and both face accusations that the church sucks money out of their members' pockets. I could go on, but I don't want to offend anyone.

By the time 2105 rolls around, they will have similar respectibility as the current LDS Church.

maleficent

That's not an accusation, it's the truth, but anyone who says that it's limited to just Scientology has never been to a Roman Catholic Mass... When I do go, there are usually two collections per mass... the first to benefit the church, the second for some other cause...

Then there's the annual arch bishops appeal where you are supposed to give til it bleeds... And every so often the lectures come up about tithing - where you are supposed to happily fork over 10 percent of your pre-tax dollars to the church -because God makes all things possible, and you should pay him... What you can't afford 10 percent? You can't afford not to... if y ou fork over that money, then by gosh, good things will be bestowed upon you..

I go to church for the entertainment value of t hose sermons.. and it gives me something to bitch about when it's done.

Except for the whole aliens business (which I honestly didn't notice on their website) their doctrine is not all that obscure, it's common sense in some cases.

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kutulu

Except that you don't 'need' to contribute in order to be a part of the Church. They have no problem asking for it but Church services are not withheld from those who do not contribute. Everyone can go get communion, confession, etc.

docbungle

I'm curious to know why so many people care so much about what someone else chooses to believe. As if that tells you everything about a person. Let them worship whoever or whatever they want. Some very harsh opinions here based on the "religion" these people choose. Personally, I see no difference between this and "Dr.Phil."

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absorbentishe

This is sort of big news in Toledo. She grew up catholic, went to catholic schools. Her parents are too pleased, but she's an adult. I think she's doing whatever she needs to, to advance her career, and the fling with Tom won't go too far. (I hope).

kutulu

Parents are rarely happy when their child leaves their religion for another, especially if they are devout followers of that religion.

warrrreagl

Then allow me to tell my own personal encounter with Scientology. I played jazz guitar in the 70's in several bands, and I definitely had some major jazz idols. Particularly, there was Chick Corea, Flora Purim, Airto, and Stanley Clarke that stood out for me above all the rest.

As any idol-worshipping teenager would do, I read every single syllable and word on all of their jazz albums, and there was something curious I noticed. All of the above-mentioned artists included a line on their album jackets that said, "And a very special thanks to L. Ron Hubbard." Every single album they released contained the same acknowlegment.

So, I wrote Chick Corea a letter and asked him who this L. Ron Hubbard cat was. He actually wrote me back with a nice little biography and a free copy of "Dianetics." From that point on, I found that I was on the mailing list of the Church of Scientology, whose members included Chick Corea and Stanley Clarke (among others). For about one summer (1978) I was seriously hooked on Scientology. Then, I just lost interest.

It was about that same time that the Scientologists were getting entangled with the FBI, and I started to notice that some of my mail was pre-opened when it got to our house. I figure I must have made somebody's FBI list somewhere. To this day, my mother still gets things mailed to her house addressed to me from Scientology.

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MSD

To give you an idea, while Judeo-Christian religions have Satan and his army of demons as his minions, the Scientologists have the evil galactic lord Xenu and his army of thetans and psychiatrists. Indoctrination starts with phony new-age medical procedures and brainwashes people to the point that they don't realize how absurd their beliefs are or how much money they're pouring into the "church."

Operation Clambake - an anti-Scientology website: http://www.clambake.org/

pocon1

Hubbard may have been a complete nut and his "religion" may leave some things to be desired, but he wrote some damn fine science fiction. If you want to see his core beliefs in the guise of science fiction, read Battlefield Earth and also the mission earth series, his dekalogy satire of earth, drugs, politics, and aliens trying to save us from ourselves. They are a blast to read, and after you read battlefield earth, you wonder how travolta could fuck up that story so badly.

pan6467

I find it interesting how people get all worked up about a star's belief. Like they owe you their personla decisions and explanations why they choose very personal things like who they marry and what religion they practice.

I have heard and know of a few friends that have siad Scientology actually helped their careers, both in acting and in business (seems the "cult" like to do business within its own). Nothing wrong with that.

I grew up with a what many consider a weird religion/denomination (Seventh Day Adventism) and it only helped me look at things more unbiasedly.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

MSD

When a "religion" has protocls for declaring someone an enemy of the "church," and not only allows, but encourages its members to slander, harass, and evern physically harm those enemies, it is a dangerous organization.

pan6467

Ah.... sounds like Pat Robertson and the Religious Right's wing of Christianity, or Catholicism's history, does it not? Yet, I wonder if there would be as much of an outcry if she chose to start going to the same church as Pat and gang or had an audience with the pope. I wonder if she started quoting Bible and verses if people would stand up and decry her choice.

I guess it is all in what society dictates.

(Again, I am not a fan of Scientology, but everyone on this planet has the right to choose how they want to pursue their spirituality...... so long as it harms none.)

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Stompy

Scientology isn't a religion. At all.

That's like saying... people who believe in The Force (from Star Wars) are following a valid religion. It's absurd. I personally thing all religions are equally as absurd, but.. that's for a different thread.

L. Ron Hubbard wrote some sci-fi books and thought it would be clever to try and convince people that certain events actually happened. How can someone sit there with a serious face and think there isn't anything wrong with that? If I sat here and made up a story of how a monkey named Charles gave me a holy banana on a desolate island and told you I believed him to be my god, would you look at me with a straight face? Maybe in principle you'd feel like saying, "If that's what you want to worship, so be it," but no. I would be a fuckin loon. That is... if I ACTUALLY believed in that.

Really, if you don't know the "story" of Scientology, read up on it. It's pretty f'n hilarious. If I recall properly, something about a intergalactic nuclear war billions of years ago that destroyed the earth. The beings that were on the earth were destroyed and split into tiny particles called (and I may be off on the name of this) "Thetas" that make up our being today.

[edit]
OK, got this backwards. "Body thetans" are spirits of aliens that inhibit the earth after the intergalactic war some billions of years ago. They cause you to do bad things.. give certain addictions, diseases, etc. Scientologists are on a mission to destroy these thetans.

More info here: http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/body-thetans-def.htm

[/edit]

These tiny 'thetas' make up our every thought, action, etc... and can be manipulated to your will only through the teachings of Scientology.

Still sound like a valid religion to you?

I don't really care who has what religion, but... when a celeb joins these religions, it will get a, "You GOTTA be fuckin kidding me... how stupid and gullible can people be?"

Hm, but honestly, if I was a celebrity, I would totally join Scientology just to play with the media. However, I think Cruise, Travolta... whoever, actually think Scientology to be something valid, which... I find quite hilarious.

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kutulu

I call bullshit on that. The only thing that sets scientology apart from the 'valid' religions is that people have been practicing the valid religions for a long enough time that faith is socially engineered into their belief system.

Is it really that different than some guy walking up to you saying "I have this book here written by the creator of the universe that explains everything. In a nutshell, everything was created 5,000 years ago over the course of 7 days. Mankind started with one dude who lived with his wife in paradise till they talked to a snake and were expelled from paradise for it. Forgien languages? It's just because people were trying to build a ladder to heaven. God struck it down and made then speak different languages so they couldn't do it again. Then there was this flood and this one dude built a boat and gathered two of every species on the planet. Now everything was cool, or so they thought until this other guy was born from a virgin came along and said 'hey you're doing it all wrong!' He walked on water and turned that water into wine. We killed him but he rose from the dead and now we devote our lives to him. Also, if you don't believe you will go to hell and be tortured for eternity. Of course, none of this can be historically proven and science proves all of this to be inaccurate but we KNOW the truth"

Or what about the Mormons? They believe that the Indians were Isralites and that Jesus came to North America. They also believe in the protection gained from special undergarments and that those who reach a certain level in the Church get to rule their own planet.

Tell me honestly that if you had never been exposed to Christianity in ANY way that this somehow would seem more valid than Scientology.

Stompy

I think Christianity is just as absurd.

Just because more people believe in it and follow it doesn't make it more acceptable.

Scientology is just easier to call BS on because you know exactly who wrote it and where it came from.

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Suave

Same could be said of Tom Cruise. He's one of the most attractive men I've ever seen.

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maleficent

Awwww - isn't this sweet -- they got engagged at the Eiffel Tower last night...
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=8822036

(This was actually a top news story this morning...)

PARIS (Reuters) - Film star Tom Cruise has asked girlfriend Katie Holmes to marry him, he announced on Friday, ending weeks of speculation over the fate of Hollywood's hottest couple.
Appearing with Holmes at a Paris news conference, the 42-year-old revealed how he had chosen the city of romance to make his move.

"Yes I proposed to Kate last night ... because it is very beautiful and romantic here," Cruise said, smiling and exchanging glances with Holmes, who was sitting in the audience.

"I haven't slept all night. It's very exciting and very beautiful," Cruise said, adding he had proposed at the Eiffel Tower.

Cruise, one of Hollywood's most powerful personalities, was in Paris to promote his latest blockbuster, Steven Spielberg's "War of the Worlds."

Holmes, 26, has also been trotting the globe in recent days for her film "Batman Begins."

Media attention on the couple has been intense since they revealed their relationship in April, and both have been prepared to discuss it openly in interviews and on red carpets.

That openness has even led to speculation that the relationship was a stunt to promote their movies.

Cruise has been married twice before, to Mimi Rogers and later to Nicole Kidman, with whom he adopted two children.

Cruise and Kidman were together for around 10 years until they split in 2001, since when the "Mission: Impossible" heartthrob has been romantically linked with actress Penelope Cruz.

Holmes was previously engaged to actor Chris Klein.

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zenmaster10665

20 bucks says it doesnt happen....

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He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
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guthmund

It'll happen.

They'll do a couple of movies together. Once they become yesterday's news the break up will start to grab headlines.

/cynical bastard

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