BigGov

Jeff has no skills. Anyone that thinks Jeff does insane things hasn't seen ECW, or for that matter, NWA-TNA. New Jack for example and his dives off the balcony are from higher than Jeff has taken most of his bumps, only difference is New Jack is pretty huge, did the dive fairly often, oh, and it was onto concrete, not the mat.

Hell, almost anything you saw in the WWE/F you thought was the most amazing thing ever was probably done in ECW two years before.

Derwood

Here's my first post on this thread. I didn't read all 9 pages of posts, so forgive me if I repeat something.

I generally don't watch wrestling much anymore. I was a rabid fan in the 80's and early 90's, with my interest sparked by Hulk Hogan winning his first WWF title over the Iron Shiek. I watched the NWA and WWF religiously, including all of the Wrestlemanias, Starracades, and the always elusive Saturday Night's Main Event.

Looking back, I realize that the thing that pulls you in is the stories, not the violence. Sure, you wanted to see a well conceived match with lots of drama and action, but a match wasn't necessarily better if it was bloody or ultraviolent.

So recently I was flipping channels and I landed on one of the WWE programs. I was really shocked at how violent it was. Brock something (you know who I'm talking about) was tossing this skinny guy around like a rag doll, smacking him with chairs, smashing his legs into the steel posts, etc.

While we all know that the story lines and outcomes of WWE matches are pre-written, a lot of this violence is real. Back in the day, getting hit with a steel chair looked pretty tame. Now a days, I'm surprised that people aren't in the hospital for compressed spinal columns.

So my question is this: is WWE going to far in the violence department? Do fans really crave blood and broken bones so much that the wrestlers are willing to risk their lives for Vince McMahon?

__________________
"You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

meanSpleen

The thing is that they aren't risking their lives. Aside from a handful of wrestlers, most of the WWE roster are part-time independant contractors. They have the option to say no to any stunt that may occur. (although the probability of them not appearing on any following shows is likely if that happens)

No move is forced, just because VinnieMac says so. Booker T refuses to use a full basket scissors kick because it is extremely dangerous if the other guy does not land correctly. He only uses it in PPV's and high profile matches. Otherwise, he just uses the one leg scissor, which is much safer.

The best matches are generally not the most violent ones. Chairs, Ladders, Tables, Cages, are just incentive for people who are tired of the standard match. Great matches have ups, and downs, backs and forths between the wrestlers involved. It doesn't have to be technically sound, nor does it have to have any spectacular moves. It just needs to flow well, and be as 'real' as possible for the fans to see.

Broken bones and blood are not something to strive for. If you break something, it will just cause you to either:
a) do worse in the ring, because with the broken something or other, you can't do your regular moves
b) can't wrestle, because you are out to heal

__________________
Like TFP? Donate To Keep It Alive!!

DownwardSpiral

I always thought Matt Hardy was the better Hardy Boy, Jeff was like a mediocre Rey Mysterio to me.

__________________
"So Keep on Pretending.
Our Heavens Worth the Waiting.
Keep on Pretending.
It's Alright."

-- H.I.M., "Pretending"

h2ogo69

seen ecw i new jack and sabu are crazy mothe rfuckers and jeff did have skills no matte rwhat pppl say the boy had some moves on em but he wasnt as technichally sound as matt ill give u all the

BigGov

What skills did Jeff have?

The only "skill" Jeff had was he flipped a few ways which had been done years before he broke in. He couldn't even flip accurately. That "Whisper In The Wind" bullshit never, EVER, hit someone squarely.

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

Prophecy

1st RVD is "The Whole Damn Show", he's also "Mr. Monday Night", maybe thats why he's on RAW?. To bad they didn't make more of his feud with Y2J. All so, I wish the hardcore belt was still in action. Having RVD as the hardcore champion would be awesome if they didn't tone down the matches. Imagine a RVD & Tommy Dreamer match like in the ECW days.

2nd Thank god the Dudley boys are back in action. Bubba Ray and Devon didn't work all that well solo. Though the Reverand had some great enterance music, and he faired better solo than Bubba in my mind.

3rd Sting isn't gonna leave NWA

4th, Oldberg should win the title and then lose it to Y2J . If Goldberg becomes the new HHH and goes into a period of no jobbing and no selling I'll give up on RAW. (Also, does anyone like Jericho's newest music? I heard it once, but I have mixed feelings about it.)

5th I don't like Kane's new maskless char. Kane new direction is weird to say the least. Same goes for the Deadman's American Badass char(I know he's been this way for a while but I still don't like it. His old theme Rollin' really got on my nerves...). I miss "The" Undertaker. The Ministry days, before the Corporate Ministry were my favorite Undertaker days.

__________________
La Disciplina È La Mia Spada,
La Fede È Il Mio Schermo,
Non salti Ciecamente In Incertezza,
E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense.

h2ogo69

ahh fuck it im getting tired of defending jeff's skills trash him all u want
i liekd the way he wrestled and i thoiught he was extremly entertaining to watch alhto he was sloppy

Prophecy

I don't know about the rest of you but the mic going out on RAW was pretty funny. I like how HHH covered for it though. "I'd didn't know Goldberg made Microphones. Something else that doesn't work."

__________________
La Disciplina È La Mia Spada,
La Fede È Il Mio Schermo,
Non salti Ciecamente In Incertezza,
E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense.

h2ogo69

i wanna see shane and kane go down just cause Shane hit kane about 6 times square in the nuts.... i ddint know that could happn and u can still walk

Prophecy

well shane had jumper cables "attached" to his nuts and he seems fine walking around. Watch that part again in slow mo, i bet you he pulled the kicks.

__________________
La Disciplina È La Mia Spada,
La Fede È Il Mio Schermo,
Non salti Ciecamente In Incertezza,
E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense.

DownwardSpiral

As much as you people want Jericho to be the Champion once again, seeing as he has been put back in the Intercontinental championship contention, that probably wont be happening anytime soon.

__________________
"So Keep on Pretending.
Our Heavens Worth the Waiting.
Keep on Pretending.
It's Alright."

-- H.I.M., "Pretending"

meanSpleen

Who cares?! Lets make him a triple crown KING OF THE WORLD!! (Heavyweight, Intercontinental, and Tag) That would be awesome... although he really can't hold the heavyweight and intercontintental belts at the same time *sigh*

__________________
Like TFP? Donate To Keep It Alive!!

h2ogo69

ive seen it done by hbk and stone cold

meanSpleen

Not at the same time though. You can't hold the World Heavyweight Championship at the same time as the Intercontinental title... I think. Pretty sure at least. But yes, I agree that HBK and Stone Cold have indeed held all three titles, albeit at different times.

__________________
Like TFP? Donate To Keep It Alive!!

h2ogo69

stone cold held the intercontinental and the world title, but they made him give up his intercontinental ... hbk i messed up on, he held the european title at the same time

Prophecy

Don't forget the Ultimo Dragon, that man had 16 belts at once, why can't Y2J have 2?

__________________
La Disciplina È La Mia Spada,
La Fede È Il Mio Schermo,
Non salti Ciecamente In Incertezza,
E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense.

DownwardSpiral

Dragon had those titles in different promotions, not the same one. And no, Austin didn't have the World title and the IC belt at the same time, at least not that I recall.

__________________
"So Keep on Pretending.
Our Heavens Worth the Waiting.
Keep on Pretending.
It's Alright."

-- H.I.M., "Pretending"

h2ogo69

exactly once he won the world title they stripped him of the ic title the very next night

brandon11983

What do you guys have against Goldberg? He is very entertaining to watch. His "pissed" motif is awesome to watch. Same thing with Big Poppa Pump.

__________________
Well behaved women rarely make history.

BigGov

Goldberg does the same moves every match, he refuses to take some moves, he has been careless in the ring, and he hasn't ever taken a big bump.

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

trench

I remember when Scott Steiner used to be a very impressive almost cruiserweight type wrestler. Now he's just an overly pumped up juicehead.

JohnnyRock

Great Ironman Match on Smackdown! last night...hopefully the numbers will be good and we'll get more actual wrestling on wrestling shows. They got me too, never thought they'd give away a PPV match with a PPV ending [title change]...GREAT JOB by WWE!!!

__________________
Not only do I not know the answer...I don't even know what the question is!!!

Prophecy

Didn't Goldberg have a run in with Y2J back stage once when the both worked for WCW? It would be interesting to see how Goldberg would react if he was told he had to drop the title to Y2J.

__________________
La Disciplina È La Mia Spada,
La Fede È Il Mio Schermo,
Non salti Ciecamente In Incertezza,
E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense.

DownwardSpiral

Steve Austin won his first title from Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania XIV, and after that I don't recall him ever holding the Intercontinental title again, so as far as i'm concerned, no, he didn't hold them at the same time. The only person I recall ever doing that and getting stripped of the IC Belt is the Ultimate Warrior. And I was personally upset with the Ironman match, Lesnar didn't deserve to get the title back so soon. And I don't have anything against Goldberg, bt Steiner I never did like, his gimmick is stupid and signing that fool was a mistake, he went from title shots to matches over Stacy Keibler with Test. And, lastly, what;s your bets on the title match Sunday between Goldberg and Triple H? I think Goldberg is gonna get it done this time, what do you all think?

__________________
"So Keep on Pretending.
Our Heavens Worth the Waiting.
Keep on Pretending.
It's Alright."

-- H.I.M., "Pretending"

DownwardSpiral

Oh ya and if you're referring to the time when Steve Austin forfeited the IC Belt to The Rock when Rock was in the Nation, Steve Austin had not yet won the World Title from HBK.

__________________
"So Keep on Pretending.
Our Heavens Worth the Waiting.
Keep on Pretending.
It's Alright."

-- H.I.M., "Pretending"

Mr. Spacemonkey

I was upset too. That just seems stupid to have Kurt lose the championship this soon. I mean how long has he even had it, like a month maybe?

__________________
"I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko

BigGov

Smackdown title changes often revolve around injuries. Brock was injured for a little bit, then Angle came back, now Angle is getting beat up a little (on top of coming back from his neck injury in an extremely short period of time). Angle's sister also recently died so he might get a little time off to grieve with his family.

Not every title change is decided by the creative team, sometimes other factors force a change.

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

DownwardSpiral

I heard about Angles sister and that's sad, but at least give the belt to someone worthy, like Chris Benoit, or the Undertake, but not Lesnar, he;s more a Goldberg clone, but a heel, in my opinion.

__________________
"So Keep on Pretending.
Our Heavens Worth the Waiting.
Keep on Pretending.
It's Alright."

-- H.I.M., "Pretending"

BigGov

They give it to someone in the storyline. The WWF/E has been careful with it's belts in the past and given them to people involved in the storylines. It's better than WCW and them changing the title belt every week.

Actually, traditionally the WWF/E has had one or two PPV quality matches a year on their major programs (Raw/SD). Most often they occur almost as far away from Wrestlemania as possible. Probably to keep the interest in the company until months later the big PPV can finally push the company back up.

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

trench

No offense Jimmy but the WWE is far from careful with their titles. I mean why keep the World Title on a guy who is injured just because he's banging the boss's daughter?

meanSpleen

Trench - theres a difference between being careful, and being safe.

WWE is careful by not having title changes on a weekly basis, as Jimmy said before. They also keep it within main event stars. There are no suprises (usually) as you can be sure that Lance Storm will never hold the World Title (sadly) because he really just isn't WWE world champ material... sad sad sad.

WWE is being safe with the title, which will answer your thing aboveAs much as I don't like HHH, and how much I am pretty much sick of him, WWE kept the title on him because HHH can draw a lot of fan's into madness. He gets a lot of heat from the fans, which is good. Even though he is injured, he hides it well, and still puts on a pretty decent match every week that he wrestles. Thats a lot more then Goldberg or Steiner can do when they are at 100 percent.

It would be nice if they gave it to someone else, but who? I spout all the time that Jericho should be champ, but how the heck are they going to get HHH and Jericho into a ring? They need to build some sort of story line, which would lead to a few matches, then to a PPV or two.

I probably started rambling, but the point is that HHH was able to keep the title because he can do what he does pretty dang well, even though I really don't like him.

__________________
Like TFP? Donate To Keep It Alive!!

BigGov

Triple H does get away with too much shit, and he influences everything far too much, but he still is one of the top main event stars in the WWF/E (sadly).

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

brandon11983

I hope Lance Storm's character does get a push up in the ranks. I like his "trying to prove I'm not boring anymore" character. He and Golddust are hilarious together.

__________________
Well behaved women rarely make history.

DownwardSpiral

I don't really like thre whole Lance Storm/Goldust gimmick, just something about it turns me away from the screen when they come on. And I agree with meanSpleen, they didn't just give HHH the belt because he is marrying Stephanie, HHH draws a crowd. He is one of the top moneymakers in the company.

__________________
"So Keep on Pretending.
Our Heavens Worth the Waiting.
Keep on Pretending.
It's Alright."

-- H.I.M., "Pretending"

meanSpleen

Spleens Spouts Unforgiven Results!! (just guesses people)

-----

1) HHH vs. Goldberg - WHY? DAMMIT... HHH will win. (We all know goldberg will, but a guy can hope can't he?)
Winner: HHH

2) Michaels vs. Orton - Michaels looks sissyer and sissyer every week. He needs to stop wearing his old ramp walk outfits. It makes him look like a bikers "friend". Orton wins with the ugliest Diamond Cutter in the business.
Winner: Orton

3) Kane vs. ShaneoMac - I want more feuds in RAW. Oh! here's one! Kane will beat the crap out of Shane, but Shane will make a comeback at the next PPV.
Winner: Kane

4) SnowCoach vs LawlerRoss - Sigh...
Winner: Snow and Coach, for 2 weeks.

5) Christian vs RVD vs Jericho - ____
Winner: Y2J !!!!!

6) Dudleys vs La Ouisistance (and Conway): Dudleys will make the Frenchies (canadians) suffer for their beaning Spike off a table.
Winner: Dudleys with another 3D through a table

7) Test vs Steiner - ... wait... haven't we seen this match before? Oh yeah, only at the last 5 PPV's duh!
Winner: Test wins, and makes Steiner a Bottom (catcher), and Test remains a Top (pitcher). Keibler takes photos and posts them on the internet.

8) TrishLita vs. MollyGail - Who cares? PUPPIES!! *smacks the lawler out of himself*
okay, lets see... Trish is doing pretty good, and Lita is back from a serious injury. Molly is carrying Gail, who is still trying to kill herself in the ring... hmm... Victoria comes out and interferes.
Winner: Molly and Gail as Victoria gets Trish and Lita DQ'ed.

__________________
Like TFP? Donate To Keep It Alive!!

holtmate

Spleen...your predictions seem right on the money...except for HHH, obviously. I really don't want to see Goldbore with the title, but it's better than any more months of HHH, while they build a new storyline, IMO.

__________________
"Give her your coat"
"Why me?"
"Because you're perfect."
"You have a point there."

DownwardSpiral

I hope Coach and Snow lose tonight, I don't wanna hear Coach ramble on more than I have to.

__________________
"So Keep on Pretending.
Our Heavens Worth the Waiting.
Keep on Pretending.
It's Alright."

-- H.I.M., "Pretending"

DownwardSpiral

Unforgiven winners!

Handicap Tables match for the World Tag Team Titles:
Dudley Boyz vs. La Resistance and Rob Conway.

Winners: Dudleyz after putting Rene Dupree through a table to finish the match.

Test vs. Scott Steiner

Winner: Test, after Stacy inadvertantly hit Steine with a chair, Test uses the Big Boot for the pinfall.

Randy Orton vs. Shawn Michaels

Winner: Orton, after using brass knuckles provided by Flair.

Gail Kim and Molly Holly vs. Lita and Trish Stratus

Winners: Lita and Trish, by pinfall when Lita used a top rope moonsault on Molly.

Shane McMahon vs. Kane (Last Man Standing)

Winner: Kane, Shane climbed the Unforgiven set (we all knew he would) and tried to dive on Kane but Kane moved. Ref started ten count, and Kane got up but Shane didn't.

Intercontinental Championship - Triple Threat
Rob Van Dam vs. Chris Jericho vs. Christian

Winner: Christian retains the title after RVD goes for the Five Star Frog Splash, but Christian gets his knees (and the IC title) up and he pins RVD for the win.

RAW Annouce Team decider:
Jerry Lawler and Jim Ross vs. The Coach and Al Snow

Winners: Coach and Snow after Chris Jericho interferes and drop kicks JR in the head and rolls Coach onto JR for the pin.

World Heavyweight Title match:
Goldberg vs. Triple H

Winner: Goldberg, via Jackhammer slam and pin.

I know I didn't go through all the details but there ya have the winners at least, for those people who didn't see and might wnna check here for the results. Until we meet again. . .

__________________
"So Keep on Pretending.
Our Heavens Worth the Waiting.
Keep on Pretending.
It's Alright."

-- H.I.M., "Pretending"

Mr. Spacemonkey

Oh my God, Goldberg actually won . . . i'm so shocked!

. . . And end of sarcasm . . .

__________________
"I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko