Dark Tower 7 (And the entire mythos) Spoiler Thread

[pazuzu]

I would like to stat a discussion amongst the Dark Tower lovers, and haters if there are people out there who've read all 7 and decided they don't like them, especially the ending. I think this should be a complete spoiler allowed thread so we can discuss all issues openly. Are there others out there who would like to do so?

For instance, having read the revised edition of The Gunslinger (Book 1), I would say its incredibly necessary for the series to tie back in on itself. The very beginning where Roland feels momentarily displaced in time, woozy as if he had gone Todash, of course immediately follows the end of Book 7. He also immediately thinks about Cuthbert's fall and the loss of his horn. A sin that was supposed to be a step in damning him.

Another thought I had, was the way Susannah left near the end of Book 7. The difficulty in letting her go, her fear for a moment that he would stop her. Do you think, not letting Sussannah go was one of the sins he previously committed along his journey, he has now rectified?

Any other thoughts or comments? My gf does not have time to read the book right now, she is a HS Drama teacher and is directing a play. I am dying at my inability to discuss is with her.

And for the record, this was touched on in the other DT thread, I do wish RF had gone out a bit more dramatically. Stephen King's greatest obstacle as a story teller has always been the ending. It never seems to match the momentum of the first 3/4 of his books, and this is the ending of a 7 book series, and really so many more of his books as well. I'm not surprised there are stutters along the way.

Paz

[thatoneguy]

Hooray! A place to talk about DT! I have the same problem, pazuzu, well, kind of. My problem is that nobody else I know has read any of the books, let alone all seven, but anyway...

I was somewhat dissappointed with the ending as well... you mentioned a "revised" 1st book? I didn't know it had been revised at all, the only one I've ever read was the original one I bought around 10 years ago or so. Is that the only part that was changed?

You only had a problem letting go of Susannah? haha I had issues with all of them, after so long and so much that had happened, it wasn't fun seeing any of them leave (even Oy!) I think he had to let her go, he was the only one supposed to go all the way, and better for her to leave alive than dead somehow, like everyone else.

I was just disappointed with the ending in general... I didn't think it was horrible, but just not "enough", I guess. The King seemed too easy to get rid of, after all the focus on how powerful and such he was, then in the last book he's just some crazy old man that they get rid of without hardly trying. Plus, the looping factor... I want to know more... Like, how many times has he gone through it? Did he make it next time? Will he EVER make it?? I just feel kind of unsatisfied.. I just can't believe it's over! haha

Well, enough of my ramblings, hopefully more people will share some thoughts on the books.

[pazuzu]

Yes, he has revised the first book. A year ago it was released. The whole book was revised in that he basically re-wrote everything to make the language and quality of writing match the rest of the series. He also incorporated several important changes, not just that one. I would highly recommend you pick it up. The way book 7 ended makes me feel the first book is actually book 8. I suspect the last meeting with walter, which was revised as well, will provide a lot of insight into the looping nature of Roland's quest.

Also, the tower specifically chastised Roland for leaving his horn with Cuthbert's dead body. At THE VERY END of DT 7, it is revealed that this time through he picked it up. The implication being, in my opinion, that he is able to change his fate eventually, and end the cycle.

Also, have you read: Insomnia, Talisman, Black House, Hearts in Atlantis? All of these are important Dark Tower books. Most of SK's books have been incorporated, for instance both Eyes of the Dragon and The Stand have Randall Flag in them, but the four i listed above seem to be the core books.

Thanks for replying. I hope others will filter in here as well.

Paz

[warrrreagl]

There are at least four other threads about this already.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=69812

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=58732

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=71806

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=57005

[Hedgehog]

Damn it, I missed this one too....

I'll post my thoughts here as well then.

[Hedgehog]

I've had some serious discussion with a couple of friends who are now finished with the book and some interesting things dominate the discussion.

1. This last book seemed rushed. This is particularly strange, since the previous book really didn't advance the plot very much. Did King want to finish this book (and his career) so badly that he didn't pay attention to pacing?

2. The above being said, we got LOTS of plot advancement in the last book, at a very fast pace, which made me happy. Unfortunately, the three major villains, after 6 books of buildup, all go out like punks. Major disappointment. Mordred may as well have been cut from the story. Walter's death would have been cool and somewhat deserved, but the easy end of the other villains cheapened it. And the Crimson King being a total incompetent by locking himself out of the tower was just total shortcut on King's part, IMHO. I'd much rather have had Mordred die at birth, have the CK put an end to Walter, and have Roland and the CK have the big apocalyptic showdown at the tower. Instead, Roland pretty much coasts to the tower in this book.

3. Was anyone other than me hoping that Mordred would turn out to be IT? I could see him getting thrown from the top of the tower and vanishing into the past to become Bob "Pennywise" Gray in Derry. What a shame that King didn't think of that.
__________________

[FoolThemAll]

I have many thoughts, which I will type up when I have more time. For now...

I am of the opinion that this was Roland's nineteenth time through the loop.

I really liked Flagg's death.

I loved the ending.

I considered the funniest part to be when Mrs. Tassenbaum was critiquing Stephen King's writing quality. A close second: "Young man, did that creature just say 'fuck'?"

I consider it the best of the seven. My tentative order: 7, 3, 5, 2, 4, 1, 6.

[Derwood]

I was completely satisfied with the ending. As King says in his Afterword, "It's about the journey, not the destination." I completely agree. In fact, I would have been satisfied if the book had finished with the door slamming behind him and never knowing what was in the Tower at all. His quest was always just to get to the tower. He never said what he needed to do inside (besides try to get to the top).

I do have some questions that occured to me though:

If the Tower is the center of all worlds, why is it at the edge of End-World in Roland's world? What is on the other side of the Tower? Seems strange that the center of the universe is on the very fringe of the world.

Where is Jack Sawyer? I was happy to see Ted Brautigan and Patrick Danville show up in the book, but I figured Sawyer would somehow make an appearance as well.

No references to the little doctors? Insomnia's take on the Tower (as a metaphorical structure representing different layers of reality) was never touched upon in the DT books. And was it actually the Crimson King who appears in Insomnia, or some being that he sent to do his dirty work (not Walter, but some other manifestation of evil)?

Besides the references to the Browning poem that they specifically point out at Dandelo's house, did any of the other stanza's influence the story? Seems like the greatest inspiration for King was the title!

I'm sure I'll think of more. I'm currently trying to figure out all the connections that King says are in his other books. I have just about all of them (Multiple SPOILERS to follow):

'Salem's Lot: Donald Callahan's battle against vampires (low men)

The Stand: Randall Flagg's first appearance. The survivors of an airborn disease all start dreaming of either an ancient old black woman, or of a man in black leather (Flagg)

The Talisman: 12 year old Jack Sawyer must save his mother's life by retrieving a Talisman from "The Territories", and alternate world where time and distance run faster than in his own world.

It: Some say Pennywise is the Crimson King. At any rate, the Turtle is the symbol of good.

The Eyes of the Dragon: Another Flagg story. This time, he's in the form of an evil wizard who tries to throw a kingdom into bloody chaos.

Insomnia: Two senior citizens are "chosen" to save a young boy (Patrick Danville), who is predestined to save Roland's life. Their lack of sleep allows them to see their world in different layers. The old man has a confrontation with the Crimson King himself.

Rose Madder: I haven't read this one.

Desperation: I read it, but can't remember. I think the can-toi make their debut here.

Bag of Bones: I haven't read this one.

Black House: Jack Sawyer as an adult, helping a small Wisconsin town's police force track down a serial killer. He comes to find that the murderer is actually harvesting young children as new Breakers for the Crimson King.

From a Buick 8: Loose ties here. Basically, the car (and it's driver) match the description of the taheen/can-toi who take Ted Brautigan back to End-World at the end of "Low Men in Yellow Coats" (Hearts in Atlantis). The description of the driver makes it seem like he has a human mask on....

The Regulators: Same as Desperation? They are companion novels...

Skeleton Crew: I've read it, but havent' re-read it to find which story relates

Hearts in Atlantis: First story, "Low Men in Yellow Coats", follows a young boy and Ted Brautigan, who moves in upstairs. Ted is the chief breaker, and is running from the Crimson King, but is eventually taken back by the taheen.

Everything's Eventual: haven't read this one.

[FoolThemAll]

Originally Posted by Derwood

Where is Jack Sawyer? I was happy to see Ted Brautigan and Patrick Danville show up in the book, but I figured Sawyer would somehow make an appearance as well.

I've heard rumors of a third Talisman book...but nothing nailed down.

Besides the references to the Browning poem that they specifically point out at Dandelo's house, did any of the other stanza's influence the story? Seems like the greatest inspiration for King was the title!

I'm a fan of the theory that King actually did include a real ending, the story of the final loop, and hid it in plain view. The final loop: Robert Browning's "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came". Roland comes to the Tower with his horn and the realization that he is not ever meant to enter the tower. And thus, the end of the story is Roland's (20th?) arrival at the Dark Tower.

Rose Madder: I haven't read this one.

The parts concerning the other world that Rosie visits contain a reference or two to Lud, iirc.

Everything's Eventual: haven't read this one.

Dinky Earnshaw's the main character.

[Derwood]

I just picked up Bag of Bones at the library. All I've read is the flap on the dustcover, but it seems to deal with Maine and the house called Sara Laughs. It starts in Derry, but maybe goes to Lovell? We'll see.

[the_marq]

Well I am glad I didnt click on this thread till I finished the book, which I just did about 2 hours ago.

I thought the ending was brilliant. For years King as written books with extremely disappoining endings, most notably was The Tommyknockers (worst ending ever). But this was awesome, its the kind of ending that I should have seen comming, it seemed so obvious when he opened the door at the top of the tower and it all fell into place.

It's true that books 6 and 7 were horribly rushed, but remember that King ( in the book) wanted to hurry and finish before he died. Maybe that's a lame ass excuse, but it works.

Hile wordslinger, I say thankya.

[guthmund]

Originally Posted by Hedgehog

1. This last book seemed rushed. This is particularly strange, since the previous book really didn't advance the plot very much. Did King want to finish this book (and his career) so badly that he didn't pay attention to pacing?

This one I think is perfectly paced. I never really like the first book. The second was fine and the third seemed to lag. The fourth, fifth were complete stories unto themselves and I don't think can be held in consideration when talking about the pace of the entire story. The sixth lagged at times, but overall I think King did a fine job keeping us interested long enough.

2. Unfortunately, the three major villains, after 6 books of buildup, all go out like punks. Major disappointment. Mordred may as well have been cut from the story. Walter's death would have been cool and somewhat deserved, but the easy end of the other villains cheapened it. And the Crimson King being a total incompetent by locking himself out of the tower was just total shortcut on King's part, IMHO. I'd much rather have had Mordred die at birth, have the CK put an end to Walter, and have Roland and the CK have the big apocalyptic showdown at the tower. Instead, Roland pretty much coasts to the tower in this book.

Mordred's death was a little anti-climactic, but the rest were fine. In fact, they were more than fine. Flagg comes back to try to pull a fast one and finds out that there are no fast ones to pull. The smug pretentious man we meet in Eyes of the Dragon, The Stand and hear mention of in half a dozen other books tries to 'go along to get along' using the same old shit and is made to pluck his own eyeballs out. Nice.

The Crimson King. After all the build-up we find out he's actually just a crazy old booger in blood red garb. Isn't that the way it always is? The bogeyman outside is always bigger and badder than he really is? The Crimson King didn't deserve to have Roland ease his misery, even though he certainly thought of Roland as an inferior being. Instead the mute-artist gets the pleasure. Nice.

You couldn't have had a big apocolyptic showdown because life isn't full of apocolyptic showdowns. In the end, a big showdown would have been equally disappointing. Not because you can't make everyone happy, but rather because it would have felt wrong. The Tower was the objective. Everything that happened after the big showdown wouldn't have compared. That would have lessened the importance of achieving the Tower and the story would have fallen on it's ass.

Roland didn't coast to the Tower at all. Even before the loop started he lost his family, his home and his friends. After the loop he had to witness Jake, a boy he considered a son, right?, die twice, once by his own hand. Eddie died, Susannah had to go, Oy served as sacrifice. Gave a few fingers and suffered through a few bad fevers and what he thought was 'dry twist.' He made some hard choices and walked a long road, I'd hardly call that coasting.

Originally Posted by derwood

If the Tower is the center of all worlds, why is it at the edge of End-World in Roland's world? What is on the other side of the Tower? Seems strange that the center of the universe is on the very fringe of the world.

I think that it's at End-World in Roland's world view. For Roland to finish his epic story the Tower has to be at the edge of End-World. (I travelled all over the land, through the city of Lud and Thunderclap all the way to Mid?-World.) Doesn't quite work for me. Maybe physically it really is in the middle of all worlds, but from Roland's view (and that of his ka-tet) it's End-World.

No references to the little doctors? Insomnia's take on the Tower (as a metaphorical structure representing different layers of reality) was never touched upon in the DT books. And was it actually the Crimson King who appears in Insomnia, or some being that he sent to do his dirty work (not Walter, but some other manifestation of evil)?

Now that we know how important Patrick Danville was I imagine that the figure we see in Insomnia is full fledged Crimson King. Especially now that we know that the Crimson King isn't some vast hole of indomitable evil on the upper levels of the tower, but a crazy old bastard who locked himself out.

I think King purposefully chose not to bring the metaphor from Insomnia into the DT series. These books are simple, for lack of a better word. They never seem to discuss the voodoo. To Roland the Tower just is. There is no need to question. The Tower is the center of all worlds and the Beams holding all of it together are being broken. If that happens, it's bad. He has to stop it. That's all Roland needs to know.

Originally Posted by FoolThemAll

I'm a fan of the theory that King actually did include a real ending, the story of the final loop, and hid it in plain view. The final loop: Robert Browning's "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came". Roland comes to the Tower with his horn and the realization that he is not ever meant to enter the tower. And thus, the end of the story is Roland's (20th?) arrival at the Dark Tower.

Absolutely bloody brilliant. Hadn't heard that, but makes perfect sense.

[warrrreagl]

I just finished re-reading "Insomnia" and a little discrepancy bothers me. The Bald Doctors explain to Ralph that Patrick Danville is destined to save two men right before the end of his own life, and that one of those men is a king.

However, in DT7, Patrick meets Roland and Susannah (not two men) and only saves Roland (Susannah had already gone back to NYC). Also, according to Roland and Susannah, Patrick is destined to go on and have a long life and career as a famous artist (and not die shortly after).

Strange.

[Derwood]

I read Bag of Bones, and besides the fact that it takes place in the lake house "Sara Laughs", it has nothing to do with the DT series whatsoever. Skip this one. It's long and doesn't satisfy at the end.

[warrrreagl]

Originally Posted by Derwood

I read Bag of Bones, and besides the fact that it takes place in the lake house "Sara Laughs", it has nothing to do with the DT series whatsoever. Skip this one. It's long and doesn't satisfy at the end.

I started "Bag of Bones" a couple of weeks ago and gave up on it. I did notice the Sara Laughs reference from DT, but I thought it was very boring overall. I'm glad to know that I quit before an unsatisfying ending.

[Derwood]

Originally Posted by warrrreagl

I started "Bag of Bones" a couple of weeks ago and gave up on it. I did notice the Sara Laughs reference from DT, but I thought it was very boring overall. I'm glad to know that I quit before an unsatisfying ending.

Yep. I only trudged through it hoping there would be more DT significance, but no such luck.

[Frosstbyte]

I'm a fan of the theory that King actually did include a real ending, the story of the final loop, and hid it in plain view. The final loop: Robert Browning's "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came". Roland comes to the Tower with his horn and the realization that he is not ever meant to enter the tower. And thus, the end of the story is Roland's (20th?) arrival at the Dark Tower.

I really like that explanation given what was put to page, but I'm still left unfulfilled. The "Coda" was a complete waste to me. I really should've heeded King's own warning and left the book after the epilogue, since that ending was much more satisfying.

"Groundhog Day" was good and all, but I liked it much better when it starred Bill Murray. Roland doesn't have quite the same comedic timing.

[Derwood]

Originally Posted by Frosstbyte

I really like that explanation given what was put to page, but I'm still left unfulfilled. The "Coda" was a complete waste to me. I really should've heeded King's own warning and left the book after the epilogue, since that ending was much more satisfying.

"Groundhog Day" was good and all, but I liked it much better when it starred Bill Murray. Roland doesn't have quite the same comedic timing.

But you understand why he wrote the coda. I think readers would have been pissed had they waited years and years for Roland to enter the tower and then never got to see what was inside...

[rthmchgs]

Originally Posted by Frosstbyte

I really like that explanation given what was put to page, but I'm still left unfulfilled. The "Coda" was a complete waste to me. I really should've heeded King's own warning and left the book after the epilogue, since that ending was much more satisfying.

"Groundhog Day" was good and all, but I liked it much better when it starred Bill Murray. Roland doesn't have quite the same comedic timing.

I don't know, I really liked the ending. Even with the Coda. I want to go back and re read the ones I read a long time ago to see if I can see any foreshadowing. I reread a few pages of The Gunslinger, and it was fun to see how King had rewritten it to include the deja vu and the dizzyness right in the begining.

The one question that I do have now (it may be because I don't remember much of the first three books) is why does he loop back to in the desert? Why not earlier? Why not later?