CSflim

Derwood

Amazing. I sift through all of these posts and no one has asked the biggest question I have about the entire story:

The question I have isn't "What is the Matrix" or "How many layers of the Matrix are there". These are fascinating questions, posed beautifully by the film, and well worth the great discourse seen on this thread.

My question is "Why the Matrix?" In the first film, Morpheus tells Neo that it was designed by the machines to keep the human "batteries" in blissfull ignorance of what was happening in the real world. I (along with just about everyone) bought this idea in the first one, as there were no reasons given to make you belive otherwise.

But upon seeing Reloaded, I start to seriously question this theory. AI or not, these are machines....machines depicted as insects, which I think is an important thing. Insects survive because they are ultra-efficient and have clear cut roles in their "society" (workers, drones, guards, reproducers, etc.) By my thinking, the creation of The Matrix is entirely too complicated and inefficient an idea for these machines to use. Way too much work to design, perfect, and as the Architect says, refine over 6 iterations. The efficient thing to do would be to simply put all of the human batteries into a sort of comatose state - alive but unable to do anything physically. Don't plug them into any sort of computer program. Just let them sleep in their pods, alive but unconcious.

The next big question is why would machines covet power? Again, since we haven't actually experienced AI in real life, the brothers have some artistic license to decide how this works, but why would a machine want to take over the world? To what end? Great, the machines now have Earth and an endless supply of energy in these human batteries. So what? What is their goal? Unlike Terminator, where the explanation is that the AI got pissed off when the humans tried to shut it down, no reason is given as to why the machines went to war with the humans. All Morpheus tells us is that "all we know is that the machines attacked first, but it was us who scorched the sky." Seems like the humans are a little fuzzy on the facts.

A third question is about the agents. If the theory is that the anomaly humans who reject the Matrix assemble in Zion, why have agents at all? These agents are supposed to kill the renegade humans inside the Matrix, right? If Zion is this cache, why have agents at all? Especially if the predetermined outcome of each iteration of the Matrix is that the One will destroy Zion anyways?

Additionally, if agents are programs meant to kill renegades, why are there only 3 available at any one time? If the agent program was truly meant to kill Morpheus, Trinity, et al in the first film, why wouldn't they simply overwhelm them with 1000's of agents?

And why would the Architect program agents to have martial arts be the fighting method of choice?

This finally brings me to my theory about the whole thing. Some of you will probably hate this theory if its true, but here goes:

The Architect is actually a human being in the heretofore unseen "real world". He is a programmer who is obsessed with creating an artificial reality within a computer, one that creates and emulates human behavior exactly. He thought that his first iteration of this program was perfect, except that some of the humans that the program (or he) created in the computer were anomalies, and ultimately crashed the program. He has set up this scenario (the Matrix, the machines, the One, etc.) as his test sequence to see if his program is perfect yet. Each time the sequence ends (ie the One makes his choice), the Architect refines the program and starts the simulation over again. In this, the sixth iteration of the program, Neo makes a new choice, that of love over survival. This is a new choice, but perhaps one that truly has shown that the program is now perfect, as the Architect has successfully gotten his simulated humans to accurately feel love, an emotion he was unsuccessful at in the previous iterations. The Kung Fu, etc. is for his own amusement, and another test to see how his sims can learn, adapt, and progress.

Whew, that is the first time I've put my thoughts down in any sort of logical order. I'm eager to here responses.

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raju

Excellent post Derwood. I agree with your 'agent' thoughts, but not the last arcitect one. I believe that Smith (and maybe all the agents) are rogue programs inserted into the matrix by the 'real humans' to destroy the matrix. I never thought of the whole 'three at a time' agent idea, but that seems correct and I think bolsters my idea. I'm still sold on the idea that this neo being the one and resetting the matrix is a normal cycle, like the sun rising/setting, but that Smith (and maybe the other agents) are out to stop the cycle (ie kill neo) to crash the matrix once and for all. It would be really interesting to find out that Smith was indeed the hero of the story after all.

rubicon

I haven't read through the thread so I'm just tagging my reply to the end. Here's my 2 cents. And it's worth just that...

Reloaded sufferrs from verbal diahhrea, fight scenes that go on (and on and on and on). and general big-budget movie bloat.

The first Matrix was a tight film. The philosophy was well communicated without a lot of exposition. The theme of believing in one's self to accomplish your goals was well done. The theme of Morpheus' and Trinity's undying belief and devotion to Neo is well done. The fight scenes were fun but also part of the character development.

Reloaded aspired to be these things and fell short.

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rogue49

I still think Smith is a virus created by Neo when he was destroyed,
this is a virus he is encouraging to grow to create chaos.
Chaos is bad for a linear system.

Upon seeing the movie again,
I figured out why Neo was fighting Smith.
He could have taken off at any time.
I believe he was encouraging Smith to multiply even faster,
to increase the chaos in the system.

As I said before, everyone keeps saying "this isn't supposed to happen"
as if the loop (including in the "real" world) is being affected or destroyed slowly.
Things that happen "random" aren't supposed to happen random,
accidents aren't supposed to happen.
Fate is not in control.
Choice.
Chaos.
Life.

The virus is spreading, the chaos is speading, the program is being corrupted.

CSflim

A few more thoughts, which further my previous couple of points:

I have since realised why. They are actually human to an extent, in that they take over the mind of another human. In fact they also physically take over his body too, but they remain within their vessel at all times (their bodies return to normal when killed), so they are bound by the Matrix's "rules" for humans, they can bend them to an extent like Trinity and Morpheus, but ultimately they cannot completely disregard them like the twins can.

This reasoning of course would imply that the other programs within the system are pure programs, and do not reside within someone else's "avatar". (This would be backed up by the fact that programs appear yellow/orange to Neo but humans, and agents, appear green) The question is why do the agents take over bodies? If they were designed as "pure" programs like the others they could be as powerful as was required. This question, unfortunately, cannot be answered without knowing the true purpose of the Agents, but I have a theory that may explain it. (and some of the other "agent problems" that Derwood pointed out)
The Agents were never designed to destroy the One, instead they could be considered as the small-town police force, to keep the Matrix ticking over smoothly, fixing minor glitches before they become a problem. In the animatrix we see them destroying the "Ghost House" however I'm unsure of the "infallibility" of the Animatrix with regards to the film's lore. (See the Animatrix thread They are there to stop the renegades causing to big a scene, which could upset, some of the more "law-abiding" citizens of the Matrix. However I don't believe that the Agents themselves realize that they are not all-important.
As for Smith's motivation, I believe that he is simply "doing his job", but in a rather perverse way. He is a virus, but he was not written by anyone, he is a virus that came into existence when his code became corrupted by Neo. He was destroyed, but the remnants of him rebuilt, and became this virus, with a distorted goal: Kill Neo, that's what his aim was at the time he was killed. He also seems to hold a personal grudge against Neo, as he is now unwanted by his "employers". He is the first piece of software to hold a grudge (maybe). I think he is also insane, as the result of the corruption of his code. He certainly has a rather demented look in his eyes, when he called out in a manic way "MORE!" (during the brawl scene). He is definitely a very major threat to the Matrix, as well as the humans. (Remember that each person he takes over is, well... a person!)



I just noticed, that I never really explained why using humans for batteries is so absurd. If you realise why, you can skip this part The first law of thermodynamics, a.k.a the law of conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only converted from one form to another...duh! But the Matrix seems to imply that humans spontaneously create heat and electricity. It is true, that we give off these things, but they come only from converting from a different source of energy: our food. How are we being fed? With dead bodies! Of course, this would mean that in order for the human population to not decline incredibly rapidly, a person is expected to survive on food consisting of one other person for a life time, which is of course impossible. A good analogy would be this one:
Say you have two rechargeable batteries, and some electronic device you wish to power. Following matrix logic you could use the following set-up. You connect one of the fully charged batteries to the device, then bring a second branch off that battery to recharge the second. By the time the first battery runs out, the second will have had enough time to recharge, and you simply switch the two around, to recharge the first! Voila! An Eternal power source!
Of course, some might say that they are being fed in another manner, perhaps that synthetic gloop that the renegades eat? Well this raises two problems:
First: why bother? "Eat" the food yourself. The machines already know plenty about our biology, surely they can come up with a chemical process to emulate our stomachs and convert gloop in energy? Plus, this way would be far more efficient. Using humans to generate heat would be a very inefficient process.
Second: Where did the gloop get its energy? As we know, from the food chain, all energy comes from the sun. This gloop is synthetically created, so presumably the complex molecules are build from the base elements. Such a process would require energy, and MORE energy than they would get out of it, yup its that damn first law again!

Also, Morpheus points out (rather discreetly, I might add) that the machines have harnessed the power of fusion. If this is so, then they have MORE than enough energy to last a lifetime! Why bother with the Matrix at all? Just build more fusion stations. FAR more efficient!

Now maybe, the Wachowskis were not ignoring all this...maybe they do have a master plan, and are not making everything up on the spot! That remains to be seen...in Revolutions
One possibility is that Morpheus was wrong about the purpose behind the Matrix. (another point brought up by derwood). An idea that occurred to me is that the Matrix is a human zoo for the machines. Not for entertainment, but for education. We are their creators. Perhaps they are trying to determine how our minds work? What are these things "emotions"? What is "love"? Sounds like an illness! They obviously failed disastrously to predict how our minds worked, with the failure of the first Matrix, but perhaps they are getting better? Interesting that Neo’s big choice came down to love, isn't it!
Any thoughts on this possibility?



According to the Animatrix, Zion is situated only four kilometres from the earths surface, this would explain why the machines have to search for Zion each time, it is buried in a different location. Perhaps the codes that the agents are after in the first film would aid in the search for Zion?


Of course that would mean that Neo would have been damaged by the EMP which was fired in the first film, so I take this back.


So, any thoughts?

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CSflim

I agree with you in some ways. I personally really enjoyed the fight scene, I really enjoy well excecuted fight scene choreography (I'm a big John Woo fan!) but I can certianly see how it may not be to some people's taste, especially the brawl scene and the medievil fight scene.

I defintly agree with you on the verbal diahhrea. My god would the Merovingian never stop!? I mean Christ! it's not that difficult to explain the concept of predeterminism! He just went on and on! Without actually saying anything, he would keep on saying the same damn thing over and over, just rephrasing it in different ways. The idea that he is trying to convey is not really so complex that he needed to talk endlessly on it, but he kept going, repeating himself over and over, boring us all to death with his over wordy, overly long expalination of cause and effect, and then just as you think he's about to wrap up, NO! there he goes again, explaining the same thing from a differnt angle, until eventually you start to believe that he it will never end. You really feel that he could be a little more consise....Ok I'll stop now; I think you get my point!

Anyway, his speech was overly long, as were many of the other speeches, they were also very wordy, for no particular reason, giving the Matrix a rather undeserved air of pretensiousness, which is a shame.

As for which is the better movie, I am as yet undecided. I am witholding judgement until I see Revolutions, as we can then see how the three fit together as a whole. The Matrix was a complete film in its own right, but Reloaded is only half of a very long movie, which is the single sequel to The Matrix, and you would never judge a movie after seeing only half of it! I would say that I enjoyed The Matrix more, as it was a complete story, simple, and it just blew you away with the special effects. Reloaded however is a much more ambition film. It has a much more dense back story to it, making the world of the matrix and much more complex place, however it also introduces such gaping holes that we are relying on Revolutions to fix them. Also in Reloaded, the special effects, as amazing as they were, were nothing new. We had already been blown away by them in the first film! They were enjoyable none-the-less.

mackyroo

Quote from Derwood "The next big question is why would machines covet power? Again, since we haven't actually experienced AI in real life, the brothers have some artistic license to decide how this works, but why would a machine want to take over the world? To what end? Great, the machines now have Earth and an endless supply of energy in these human batteries. So what? What is their goal? Unlike Terminator, where the explanation is that the AI got pissed off when the humans tried to shut it down, no reason is given as to why the machines went to war with the humans. All Morpheus tells us is that "all we know is that the machines attacked first, but it was us who scorched the sky." Seems like the humans are a little fuzzy on the facts."


In the Animatrix, which is supposed to explain some of the story in a way with it's 9 short films there are 2 called "The Second Revolution Part 1 and Part 2, they explain exactly what happened during the War between the humans and machines was because the human economy was falling because the machine city "01" was thriving because the machines worked non stop and such, and the humans were worried that they were going to "lose" to their creations. During some point during the war humans covered the earth in dark clouds to cut off the machines from their energy source, which in turn would make them "die". But the machines long having studied their former masters found that they put out however much energy and they harnassed their power.

Kind of a weird answer if you haven't seen the Animatrix because i'm leaving a lot out because it is a good DVD.

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CSflim

mackyroo You're correct. They pretty much explained that in the Matrix anyway. So the short answer is; they need energy to survive. (as do humans)

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Derwood

Needing energy and coveting power are two different things. Needing power doesn't necessarily cause the machines to want to take over the world and destroy all the humans...

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rubicon

The backstory to Matrix is building just like the backstory to Star Wars in the early 80's. Learning the backstory of Luke and other characters, before it was explained in later films, made the experience even more enjoyable.

I haven't seen the Animatrix but I'm sure it is equally effective. The big question is did the writers build the entire "world" of Matrix before they put it to paper, or are they creating it post-success?

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CSflim

Oh I see what you meant. The humans tried to kill them off. According to the Animatrix they were demanding equal rights. Humans tried to destroy them, then when they found they were difficult to damage, they tried to remove their power source, solar power, by scorching the sky. I seems the humans declared war on the machines first, but the machines won out, but knew that they wouldn't survive long without an energy source, and so constructed The Matrix. At least thats what we are led to believe (by Morpheus's speech to Neo in M1, and The Second Renassance from the Animatrix)

EDIT:
Actually scratch that! I don't see what you mean! I don't quite get where you're coming from. What is it exactly that you don't understand about the machines motivation? Its basic self-preservation; presuamably a fundamental tennant for any "living" AI.
The humans tried to destoy them, so they fought back. They needed energy, so they took it. Where do you get the idea that they "covet" power?

synic213

The one thing that most people seem to be forgetting or overlooking is that the ideas presented in Reloaded make the reasoning in the first Matrix movie obsolete. Using the supposition that the "Real World" and Zion are infact another martix (which seems to be the common consensus), this means that everything that Morpheous tells Neo about the machines, the war, the energy source, and the matrix itself are concepts that exist only in this new matrix, created by an even higher power as yet unknown. In the real "Real World" machines may not have taken over, there might not even be machines at all. So in essence, if Zion is just another matrix, we, the audience, have no clue as to the real reason behind the matrices and the current status of the human race (if there is a human race).

I think that Derwood touched on this point very briefly, so credit goes to him where due.

CSflim

We cannot be sure of the Matrices theory, personally I don't, but there are two things the reloaded which could lead us to believe it:
Neo having super powers outside of the Matrix, and Smith downloading himself into Bane.

These two things don't prove the Matrices theory, but are however explained by it.

However, if we are to take the Theory as fact, we do know that they were created by the same force. It would not make sense to claim that a higher power created the "ZION MATRIX", within which humans battled machines, and we defeated, and put inside another matrix, as there is no evidence of this, and it brings us back to square one again. The two incidents mentioned above are not expalined by this theory.

Yuo see the flaw in logic? You are taking a theory which came about so as to explain some phenomena, but then changing it to an extent that it no longer expalins said phenomena!

What I'm interested in, is how Morpheus, and the rest of the Zionites, know this history? Where did it come from? How can they be sure? I'm hoping that in Revolutions, we will be given a better explaination. (I expalined above why the logic behind human batteries is flawed).

rubicon

good comments, synic213.

the same questions lie to the existence of human life. we exist on a planet, in a galaxy, in a universe. if the big-bang created the universe, who started the big bang?

perhaps the end of Revolutions will tell us the meaning of life?

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oldtimer

Which no ONE can do. As inadequate as this sounds, the meaning of life is what <u>you</u> make it to be. It can not be decided by a movie.

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Slowly but surely getting over the loss of TFP v. 3.0.
Where the hell am I?....
Showering once a month does not make you a better person.

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
Martin Luther King, Jr.

rubicon

IMO, this review says it all: http://metromix.chicagotribune.com/m...%5Ftop%5Fheds.

Sorry if a re-post.

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ratbastid

Philosophy, aside I just got tix to watch Neo and crew kick Agent ass in IMAX! Wooo hooooo!!!!

You thought those fight scenes were over-the-top before... Just try watching them 30 feet tall!

redravin40

One of the common complaints was that the dance/sex scene went on too long.
I actually liked the feel of those scenes.
Both the sensuality (seeing them with their plugs exposed was almost more personal then then seeing them naked) and the fierce desire made for some good scenes.
As someone who grew up with Irish folk music, dancing jigs to song about revolution, drinking, fucking, death and destruction I recognized that kind of determination to find joy in survival.
These people had been in a state of war all their lives and they were going to fight back by enjoying the life they have.
In some ways I liked it better then the super powered fights in the Matrix.

On the other subject I wouldn't be surprised if the the 'real' world turned out to be a backup Matrix and for that matter that the programs that once had been designed to make things work had started to become autonomous.

And the motorcycle worked because the Keymaker had a key that worked inside the Matrix. It would do what she wanted then.

Sun Tzu

rubicon suck or no suck look what kind of a thread its generated.

I left feeling a little pissed because I was confused. Then I started nit picking. Later that day I found ,yself still thinking about it. Thats when it dawned on me I couldnt take my mind off of it. I kept replaying what I remembered. Thats when I came to the conclusion it was actually a great movie. This is ofcourse IMO.

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Sun Tzu

Does animatrix tell the background story? Would seeing it help with understanding the movie more?

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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

oldtimer

No...............not even in the same ballpark...........except for the Final flight of the Osiris.

__________________
Slowly but surely getting over the loss of TFP v. 3.0.
Where the hell am I?....
Showering once a month does not make you a better person.

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
Martin Luther King, Jr.

rubicon

Animatrix includes three (of 8??) shorts that give more background.

Flight of the Osiris is the story of discovering the machines are digging to Zion.

The Second Rennosiance (sp) tells the backstory of Man and the Machines.

Another story, I forget the title, is the story of how Neo's "groupie" came to Zion and why he's devoted to Neo.

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wondash

jhighland

Agent Smith is Bane, granted. Smith overtakes him with his black ooze and heads out into the "real" world. In the crossover with Neo that allowed Smith to break free of his program and go on this viral rampage of the matrix system and beyond, Neo also made a crossover to a human-based viral rampage of the computer system. Of course he can stop the squiddies in the "real" world. Smith almost took over Morpheus in the Matrix. Simple parity.

The "real" world is real. It isn't another level of the Matrix. If the brothers were trying to remake Dante's seven levels of hell we would already know and be prepared for constant reevaluation. It's much more powerful of the computers to actually control the belief systems of the counter-culture in the "real" world anyway. Kind of like Phish shows.

Merovignion. Brilliant. He is a program specifically designed to protect the key maker and attract all renegade programs to this task. Serves two purposes. Focuses and controls renegade programs. Makes it harder and harder to get the keymaker so that it is totally insured that only "The One" can access the source.

CGI. By releasing The Matrix: Reloaded on the same day as the video game, Enter the Matrix, the brothers state rather obviously that the two are inseperable. If you watch the moments when the movie becomes cartoonish and video-gamish, it is when the reality of the matrix breaks down to a video-game reality. If you were Neo, it would almost be a joke, not "reality", but some silly game of buttons and programmed expectations. In a video game, the other characters you encounter are all programs that have one specific purpose, like the oracle, keymaker, or Merovignion. In real life, people have entire histories, biologies, emotional chaos, sexuality, psychological, chemical, and sociological depth behind their actions. Its hard to sort out motivation and reason. In a video game, you have a single purpose and everyone else relates to this purpose singly. Its the same bullshit that corporate captialism hands the individual in terms of climbing ladders of success. Even the choice to rebel against the system has been appropriated as a device of the system itself.

Baraka. Check the architect scene. Specifically when he starts talking about the destruction of every living human within/out of the matrix. The screens in the background show many scenes, most of which come from the movie Baraka. Watch it. It makes the same argument the Matrix makes, but in a completely different way.

cornel west. Not just an influence. Like Joseph Campbell to George Lucas, this influential thinker, writer, philosopher, and academic has had a lot to do with the brothers' development of their ideas. not only should you read his shit (it's damn good) but watch his scene in the movie where he appears on the counsel.

I have so much more to talk about that I'll just have to put it off to later. My main point is this;

You cannot judge Reloaded as a single movie. It isn't created as such. The Matrix is a developing universe of the internet, cinema, gaming, anime, myth, story, legend, and such. If you don't examine its larger statements and believe in the basic questions involved, you won't find any answers, but the deeper you delve, the more levels it offers to understanding. It deserves the same accodlades as Tokien's universe. Not the new cinematic recreations, but the original depth of creation.

TawG

Ok, let me blow you guys away with a few posts, and my opinion on the matrix (from other forums).

This is going to be the mother of all spoilers for you, as it solves the whole trilogy of movies in my opinion ofcourse.

I read this thread and it got me thinking. I made a couple of posts on some other forum and i might just paste them in here.

PS: for you do get anything im talking about here you are take some time and read through the post i made link to above ^^

Some posts i made about it on another forum
Now the way the integration happens that each time the Matrix is reset the AIs that are ready for introduction to the human community is taken out of the matrix and new AIs are put into the Matrix. This way us humans have a steady flow of friendly AIs to do our bidings.



I belivie this gave some life back to the discussion, and it will most likely make everyone want to see revolutions.

Bonesaw

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TawG
Ok, let me blow you guys away with a few posts, and my opinion on the matrix (from other forums).

This is going to be the mother of all spoilers for you, as it solves the whole trilogy of movies in my opinion ofcourse.

I read this thread and it got me thinking. I made a couple of posts on some other forum and i might just paste them in here.

PS: for you do get anything im talking about here you are take some time and read through the post i made link to above ^^

Some posts i made about it on another forum

Quote:

Ok, that was a very late robot model. As you prolly know an AI is nothing but binarycode, so in theory the robot body is only a host for the AI. Now if you could chose hosts for the AI, wouldnt it make sense to put them into human hosts, considering you are fooling them to belivie they are human? Thus the physical aspects of them are no different from normal humans except the "implants". This means they will have normal offspring. When you think of it like this they are cyborgs in some sense (if you can call it that). [/qoute] Now the way the integration happens that each time the Matrix is reset the AIs that are ready for introduction to the human community is taken out of the matrix and new AIs are put into the Matrix. This way us humans have a steady flow of friendly AIs to do our bidings. I belivie this gave some life back to the discussion, and it will most likely make everyone want to see revolutions.

Definitely very interesting interpretation of the Matrix. Some what of a mind fuck if what you propose is correct!

I will still go see Revolutions regardless of all the theories posted here.

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Great Scott

Hmm, great posts so far in this thread. I someone MUST have hit upon the true answer to the riddle. A few points that I have that no one seems to have brought up that reenforce some of the points made here:

Agent Smith tells himself "It's happening exactly as it happened before" replies to himself "Well not exactly".

Now if we imagine the Matrix trilogy to have an ending that gives the struggle purpose we have to assume that something is different about the struggle this time as opposed to 5 others the architect mentioned (seems reasonable enough to believe him to an extent). This goes well with the theory of Smith being a virus and a spoiler. Though evil he has been serving a purpose in changing some of the events that should have transpired. No DOUBT that it is Smith in Bane's body there.

I also agree with the Matrix in a Matrix idea. We have never seen the real world, and perhaps in attempting to save Zion now we will get our first glimpse of it. It may be damaged as it appears now or perhaps look totally different. One can never tell. I disagree with Neo being anything less than human. This is a big Star Trek thing. Emotion and Humanity being the only things that matter.

So we are left to realize that enitites like Mero and Smith have seen this sequence of events before albeit slightly differently. Why was Smith waiting for Neo? He wanted to gain entry himself. He wanted power and control. He now has free choice, as do Neo and now his entire enterouge. Freed of the idea of the prophecy and having to do everything to reach that point they are now operating of their own free will.

BTW, mainframe codes to Zion. Sure it SEEMS like the agents wanted them, but remember it is preordained that they will never get them. The one has to be given a choice to save Zion or not to reset the program.

TawG

wouldnt it be a mindfuck if he was a robot? if you watch 2nd renaissance the storyteller speaks alot in favour of the machines. What i think this movie is supposed to do is ofcourse make all of us indentify with Neo and all the other Zionists, and at the end find out that they were machines. It would ofcourse be a great ending.