KnifeMissile

Normally, I would (unlike a lot of people, much to my chagrine) make a descriptive thread title but this question will be a spoiler to those who have not already seen Kill Bill vol.2. So, consider this your warning! If you haven't seen the movie and want to, I recommend not continuing with this thread!

My question is...
Spoiler: Why did Elle kill Budd? I mean, her first conversation with Budd where she wanted her death to be drawn out and painful clearly showed that she had no love for the Bride, but then she appears to have killed Budd because he killed the Bride in a disgraceful and insulting manner. What's up with that?
...also...
Spoiler: I had always wondered why Budd seemed so remorseful over what he did to the Bride that he was prepared for his death but then, when it came down to it, turned around and tried to kill her in such a sadistic manner. Where was the remorse, then? What's up with that?
Perhaps, there's a clue in his line "We deserve to die--but then, so does she..."
Actualy, Vilkata had a good theory in another thread but I wanted to get more other people's ideas, too.
...and finally...
Spoiler: Why would Pai Mei teach the Bride the Five Point Exploding Heart technique? That was never explained in the movie and there was no evident affection between the two...



Please mention if the links show up through the spoiler tags...

phredgreen

the best explaination i could derive is that first and foremost, budd and bill had a falling out, and as bill's lover/partner/whatever, elle was doing it for bill. secondly, you saw her gathering the money up afterwards. do you think she's just gonna give up a million dollars? she dosen't seem the type.

sure, budd thought it shitty what they did to the bride, but when it came down to it, he knew she was coming and that it was his ass or hers, and he wasn't about to give up.

as far as the five point exploding heart technique, i could only guess that after the initial breaking in time that beatrix and pai mei got along pretty well, so i'm sure he felt comfortable passing on his secrets to a worthy student.

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ironchefkorea

I got the feeling that Beatrix was the only of the Deadly Viper Assassination Squad who didn't defy or dislike Pai Mei in one way or another. Now I don't know for sure about O-Ren (although I have a feeling Pai Mei would've liked her the least, as she was half Japanese and embraced her Japanese side over the Chinese half), Budd or Vernita (or that they even studied under Pai Mei) but they probably all at one point showed anger or some sort of defiance. Hence Bill warning Beatrix, and Elle losing her eye. I figured that Beatrix proved herself as a worthy student and earned the right of knowing the technique.

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Shady

maybe all she had to do was ask him

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FleaCircus

Pai Mei teaching Beatrix the Five Point Exploding Heart Technique was also a way to show that she was superior to Bill. He knew of the technique, but he did not know the technique. Thus, she was more worthy of the knowledge, and presumably more honorable, as she wouldn't abuse the knowledge (where Bill certainly would have).

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Lasereth

You basically answered your own questions. Elle killed Budd because she was pissed that The Bride didn't get a warrior's death. Budd admitted he deserved to die, but that doesn't mean he *wants* to die. After all, she deserves to die as well. And finally, I agree with ironchef - Beatrix was probably Pai Mei's favorite or something. She did disagree with him throughout her training, but she never jerked an Elle on him or anything.

-Lasereth

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KnifeMissile

I don't think I answered my own questions, Lasereth.

While Elle pretty much said that she killed Budd for not giving the Bride a warrior's death, why on Earth did she tell Budd not to give her a warrrior's death?

I never said that Budd didn't want to die. His actions, when it came down to it, showed that he didn't want to die, I guess, but before that, while he was talking to his brother--yeah, actually, it did sound like he wanted to die!

Finally, yeah, one might infer that the Bride was Pai Mei's favourite but only because, as it happens, he taught her and only her the Five Point Exploding Heart technique. However, we never saw any of this. There was nothing leading up to this conclusion so it kind of ends up a deus ex machina, although not an unpleasant one...

Vilkata

woohoo, someone said I had a good theory!


I think Elle killed Bud because when it came down to it, Elle was the one who wanted to off the Bride. She's the "new" girlfriend jealous over the ex. She was always jealous of the Bride because The Bride and Bill shared something Elle and Bill would never have. The Bride was meant to be her kill (hence the hospital scene in vol1) and since Bud got the job done before her, she killed him out of spite. She then called Bill and claimed that she was the one who finished the Bride off, marking her superiority over The Bride.

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Lasereth

I realize that Elle made sure with Budd to give her a slow, painful death, but I suppose Elle wanted her to at least have a chance to fight back, hence a warrior's death. Being buried alive isn't "honorable." Maybe Elle is angry over Beatrix not having a chance to fight for her life, not over the fact that she suffered.

I don't think Budd sounded like he wanted to die. He sure as hell convinced the audience that he deserved to die, but I didn't get any impression that he wanted to. That was easily the best speech in the movie (Budd talking to Bill about Beatrix), and I didn't get any sense of him wanting to die from it. Of course, it can be taken differently, so maybe it gives that effect if ya look at it that way. I just took it as, "She's coming for us, and we're probably going to die. We deserve it."

-Lasereth

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flamingdog

Just read this review of Kill Bill Vol. 2. Would be interested to see everyone's thoughts on it.

The Filthy Critic

http://www.bigempire.com/filthy/

Some of it rings true to me, but it doesn't stop me feeling I have seen an entertaining and interesting movie. When there is so much total horseshit at the pictures, to be able to see something like this is very refreshing.

Lasereth

When it comes to movie critics, the only (and I do mean ONLY) critic that I trust is Roger Ebert.

-Lasereth

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pocon1

I think that Elle didn't want to hand over the money, and she may not have even liked Budd. Budd did not want to die. Pai Mei taught her the palm technique because he was impressed with her. It wasn't deus ex machina, it was showing that Beatrix was a better student and protege.

bltzkriegmcanon

I know she didn't like Budd, but I think the primary motivation was because Budd was a alacky, bushwhackin' redneck who "killed" the supposedly greatest warrior ever. Elle was getting vengeance for Beatrix because she wanted a piece of her.

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evilbeefchan

Don't forget that she wanted Beatrix's Hanzo sword. Elle also frames Beatrix for Budd's death, then takes the credit for Beatrix's death. I guess she figures that this would put her in higher or better standings with Bill.

I like to imagine Budd as Mr. Blonde in another life. He's just living day by day, and if anybody tries to start any shyt, you know his killer instincts are gonna kick in.

And maybe Pai Mei was a huge fan of Pulp Fiction, and has a thing for hitchhiking girls with gigantic thumbs. ::shrugs::

Kostya

Why did Elle kill Budd?

Reason No 1. She hates him, she hates her. 'Wrong brother you hateful bitch' etc.

Reason No 2. She hates the fact that Budd got to kill Beatrix

Reason No 3. The Hanzo sword.

Elle's first question to Budd after he informs her that he's caught Beatrix is 'Did you kill her', so clearly she's concerned primarily with Beatrix's death, how and by whom etc. He says no of course, but Elle surely knows that even though Budd's a bum, he's not about to simply hand the glory associated with killing the Black Mamba over to Elle. So she figures why not make the best out of the situation and get the Hanzo sword and kill Budd who she hates. So she packs up her surprise suitcase and cruises over there to do just that. She uses the Black Mamba as a symbolic gesture to Beatrix I guess. I believe it was a combination of factors that led to her killing Budd.

Also, I'd go as far as to say that the hatred between Budd and Elle and the falling out between Bill and Budd suggests that Budd had serious reservations about Bill's relationship with Elle. Of course, as Esteban says, Bill is a sucker for women, so it's no surprise. Budd on the other hand seems to have had little time for Beatrix or Elle. His remark about Beatrix being 'smart for a blonde' contains a tacit implication that Elle's a dumb blonde too. but I digress.

Why did Pai Mei teach Beatrix the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique?

Well pretty much already answered above, but I'd like to add that during the very final Pai Mei scene there seems to be the very nascent beginnings of friendship between the two. When Beatrix attempts to pick up the rice with her hands, Pai Mei is harsh, but not as insulting insulting or contemptuous as at the beginning. Beatrix's stoic response seems to please him greatly, and the tiniest hint of a smile can be seen as he strokes that madcool beard of his before it cuts out.

KnifeMissile

I must say, Kostya, this is a very thorough analysis with incredible insight! Thank you...

I'm still unconvinced about her relationship with Pai Mei. That came out of left field...

CSflim

Not really. Think about her reaction when Elle tells her that she killed Pai Mei (in a most dishonerable way). While it never explictly showed on screen their bonding, it was certainly implied.

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ChasingAmy

Yes Beatrix was very visually disturbed to learn that Elle had killed Pai Mei. Her other eye being ripped out was just what she deserved!

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Mondak

I think she blew him. I bet Pei Mei might like that.

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flagpole

I think it explains why Elle killed Budd in the film. When shes talking to him as he dies, shes saying how someone like Beatrix doesnt deserve to die to someone like Budd, because she should have died in combat with a "great" warrior like Elle. But she tells Budd to kill Beatrix because shes afraid to face her herself, even though she wants to. That way, Beatrix dies, Elle gets to take the credit for it herself, and she gets to kill Budd as well, who she obviously doesnt get on with. The snake was just a nicely symbolic way of doing it.

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ChasingAmy

I dont know how to hide text like some other peoples do, but I have a question below,

*Spoiler*
























Anyone have any idea why Hatori Hanzo helped Beatrix Kiddo exact her revenge? Did I totally miss it? I havent watched the first one since it came out really, so ya.

Any ideas?

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matteo101

I personally dont know the answer either. I always thought it was just to prove that Bill can get on peoples bad sides easily, and he is enemies with alot of people. But I didn't catch the real reason if there is one.

YaWhateva

I took it as Hatori Hanzo was upset with how Bill disgraced him by using the sword as a tool for evil. Just my guess. It hurt him so much so that he stopped making swords shortly after.

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YaWhateva

damn double post....

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Kostya

Why did Hanzo help Beatrix?

Ok, well here's my thoughts...

Obviously by the time the movie takes place (I say movie since Vol 1. and 2 ought to be considered the same film) Hanzo and Bill have a deep and permanent rift between them. In Vol 1. Hanzo's immediate knowledge of which 'student' Beatrix is referring to is indicative of how important this division between the two is. Furthermore, during his monologue as he presents the sword to Beatrix he even says that he 'sympathises with her aim', basically to Kill Bill. Hanzo himself is of course a pacifist, and though he may hate Bill, does not have it in his nature to do so himself.

Now this brings me to my next point. Hattori Hanzo swore a 'blood oath' never to make another as he terms them 'instrument of death'. One can assume, that in Tarantino's world, a blood oath by a character like Hanzo is a covenant of gargantuan (Elle would be proud) importance. However, he broke this blood oath for Beatrix, in my opinion he was probably induced to do so by her story.

Now, in Kill Bill, the role of Hanzo we see primarily is that of a swordmaker. However, as Beatrix reveals, Bill was a former student of Hanzo. Now, unless Bill wanted to make swords which is highly unlikely, we can presume that Hattori Hanzo was not only a maker of swords, but also a Master of Swordsmanship. As Beatrix also reveals, Bill tended to gravitate towards paternal figures, another reason he probably ended up under Hanzo's tutelage. It could be plausibly suggested in fact that 'Baldy' who fetches the sake, was Hanzo's last student, who swore to follow him as a disciple, but unfortunately missed out on learning anything but the sushi business, bound by the oath he swore 30 years earlier.

Now, exactly when and how Bill and Hanzo fell out is not easy to tell, but there is one clue: Bill knows that Hanzo makes bad sushi. Now, either Bill had some of his sushi while they were still on good terms, during some kind of discussion they had after they fell out, but without killing each other (highly unlikely considering the characters), or someone else told him so.

Now if scenario number one is true, which it could very well be, Hanzo must have either 1. Made some sushi for Bill that was crappy since he was always busy making swords. 2. Made some sushi for Bill that was crappy because he'd given up making swords, but was just a crap cook.

Anyhow my point is, there is evidence to suggest that in fact Hanzo gave up making swords BEFORE he had a falling out with Bill, not BECAUSE he has a falling out with Bill.

Budd mentions that Hanzo bears a grude towards Bill, one that he has held for 30 years no less. Now, one could assume that Hanzo held the grude because Bill used his sword for evil, but in my opinion, this simply doesn't cut it. I mean, Hanzo must have known his sword would have been used for killing, along with every other one he made, and it's the killing he seems to be unhappy about when he's talking to Beatrix. More likely is that Bill did something that hurt Hanzo directly, after he gave up sword making because of his repulsion at the function of his artworks. Perhaps Bill came and saw Hanzo after he retired, ate some of his bad sushi and asked him between mouthfuls to make him a sword (perhaps for Elle, who doesn't have one but seems desperate to get one), perhaps for Beatrix before the whole movie even takes place. Hanzo refuses and so Bill says or does something horrible to him, Hanzo's pacifism precludes him from any violent response, and so he simply withdraws to a back alley sushi bar.

I don't know really exactly why, but those are my thoughts.

Confederate

I honestly think elle killed bud to get her money back. plain and simple. she put the black mamba in there to cover for herself. she killed bud and then told bill that beatrix did it. elle was covering her ass so bill wouldnt be pissed that she killed his brother.