Survivor All-Stars ***Possible Spoilers*** - Page 6 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Derwood · 05-07-2004, 03:42 PM

I have always liked Rob. You can't win this game as a power player without lying a lot I think. You have to gain trust through any means necessary.

Personlly, I was pissed when people like Vecepia, Sandra and Tina won since they were all coattail riders and didn't deserve the million. I respect Rob for playing the game harder than anyone I've ever seen. I was actually rooting for him on the Marquesas season, and I think he's learned a lot since then.

This has to be the most bitter jury ever. Full of people who have now lost Survivor twice, and I will be interested to see how bitter they are in the final questioning on Sunday. If they don't respect the way Rob has played, then the jury is dumb.

kutulu · 05-07-2004, 04:10 PM

Totally. If he actually manages to make it to the final two I don't see how anyone could honestly not think he deserves the money. The way he played this season reminds me a lot of the used car salesman.

Averett · 05-07-2004, 04:13 PM

I cannot believe how bitter and self rightous (I cant spell for shit) these people are. I'm so sick of Lex's reaction shot and that stupid mohawk. He always looks shocked and disgusted. Come on people, it's a game for $1,000,000!!! Do you think they're going to play nicey nice? These people need to get a clue.

sexymama · 05-07-2004, 08:48 PM

I must admit, I think Rob has a good chance; although I have a stronger feeling that Rupert could make it now. The jury is so mad at Rob that if he doesn't win amunity he is history. Sunday should be very interesting!

philosopherking · 05-08-2004, 09:22 AM

I think the Jury will be able to set their feelings aside and vote for who played the game the best. Therefore, if Rob makes it to the final two I think he'll win. I kinda like the final 4 setup of Rob and Amber vs. Rupert and Jenna. If Rupert makes it through the next vote, I think that he has a good shot of winning the final immunity since it's always endurance based. His best shot from there would be to take along Jenna if possible.

matteo101 · 05-08-2004, 01:01 PM

I'm pulling for Rupert. Now that both Rob and Amber have a vehicle, I think that someone else should get the million.

happyraul · 05-09-2004, 04:39 PM

Crap I forgot it was on, I turned on the TV right at the tribal council when Amber had the necklace on and there were still 4 people left. Can anyone tell me, what happened before that?

Averett · 05-09-2004, 04:44 PM

They had a maze challenge. They had to go through and find 8 (or maybe 7?) ladder rungs. Amber got through first...

Now they're doing that stupid "look back on your fellow Survivors and weep" kinda thing. Lame

I am so sick of the jury. They just sit there so condesending and rolling their eyes the whole time. Shut The Fuck Up.

happyraul · 05-09-2004, 05:15 PM

What was the deal with if there was a tie in the vote? I didnt get that part. seriously, the jury needs to quit being high and mighty and realize that they are jealous. looking at alicia says it all. obviously lex isnt gonna vote for rob, from the way he shook his head when rob said "i dont know if i have a chance of winning against either of them."

Averett · 05-09-2004, 05:48 PM

The jury is so annoying. The majority are the most high and mighty people ever. Big Tom looked like a big old chump right there. I guess he's never heard of anything called the high road.

Averett · 05-09-2004, 06:09 PM

Aww well that was great

Fremen · 05-09-2004, 06:11 PM

Jebus H. Crispy! Spoiler: I can't believe Rob proposed to Amber.
He wins either way.

Slavakion · 05-09-2004, 06:11 PM

Oh, man.
Heh heh.
And speaking of Tom, ouch. And the rest of the jury was pretty caustic as well.
EDIT: PS, is it being tape delayed on the west coast, fremen?

Fremen · 05-09-2004, 06:18 PM

I think so. Shit. I need to edit mine. Oops.

matteo101 · 05-09-2004, 07:07 PM

Awesome survivor is all I will say. Ile wait for everyone else.

Fremen · 05-09-2004, 07:12 PM

Damn, Jerri is a primadonna extraordinaire.

Audience: *boo* *hiss*

Jerri: *walks out*

fnaqzna · 05-09-2004, 10:09 PM

I can see what she was thinking... Sometimes, Survivor resembles a Jerry Springer show.

05-09-2004, 10:14 PM

who is everyone gonna vote for?!

Sensei · 05-09-2004, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Xepidemic
who is everyone gonna vote for?!

Doesn't really matter, Rupert is going to absolutely crush this competition. That being said, I will probably still vote for him. I want to give it to Rob Mariano since he played the game best but he already the car and a very hot fianceé (who will spend some of her million on him). That leaves Rupert or Tom and Tom shouldn't be rewarded for so blindly following Rob.

Rubyee · 05-10-2004, 04:33 AM

That was the one part I missed- I came back from doing the dishes and they said that Jerri had walked out. What happened?

I guess maybe it was because I had never watched Survivor before this season, but I wanted the nicer people to win. I guess I understood that Rob played the best, but at the same time, how hard did he try, as opposed to Rupert or Tom? They worked a hell of a lot harder than he did, in my opinion. My vote is stuck between Rupert, Jerri (she was my favorite in the beginning) and Ethan (also my favorite in the beginning).

warrrreagl · 05-10-2004, 04:49 AM

Rupert gets my vote.

And did anybody put a gun to Jerri's head and force her to be on Survivor? Twice? Or pose nude for Playboy? She could have walked away from the publicity ANYTIME before last night if it was such a drag on her.

Averett · 05-10-2004, 05:33 AM

I taped the reunion show, went to sleep after they anounced Amber as the winner.

I thought Rob proposing to Amber was sweet. They really do look to be quite happy. And I loved that he asked her parents

So, the deal is that you get to vote for somebody else to win a million bucks? I'd vote for Rob.... He should have won anyway.

Rupert is annoying. "You can't eat my fish. Oh, and you also can't use my spears to fish with." Uhh duh?

I just hope that Rob and Amber don't turn into Trista and Ryan from the Bachelorette

Kostya · 05-10-2004, 06:22 AM

Screw the jury for not giving Rob the million man!

I can't believe Lex's ridiculous attempt at moral superiority.

Frankly, Rob played the best game of Survivor ever, I mean, he practically controlled the game from a few weeks in, he even managed to control the decision in a whole other tribe! Yet, when we get to the end, the jury, out of spite, cause they lost gave it to AMBER, who did nothing but ride the Robfather's coat tails to the end. Honestly, this was ALL STAR Survivor, did Lex & co really think it was going to be sunshine, lollypops and rainbows? No way man, the only way to get to the end of that game was to play hardcore, at times you would have to betray, that's the damn game. Rob played the game the best out of anyone, the only reason he didn't get what he deserved was because some jury members got outplayed and couldn't get over it.

Averett · 05-10-2004, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kostya
Honestly, this was ALL STAR Survivor, did Lex & co really think it was going to be sunshine, lollypops and rainbows?

You're awesome

sherpahigh · 05-10-2004, 06:42 AM

Man what a load of bitterness on the jury. Boo hoo, I got out played and Rob told me a lie. Bunch of Drama Queens on there. Lex and Big Tom were the worst of the worst, total hypocrites. And what's with Tom going up to shake Rob's hand and pulling away? What are we back in grade 1? I hated Shi Ann and Hatch in the game but at least they're grounded in reality.

Rob deserved to win but I guess in the end he's marrying into it anyway. Winner either way. I can't believe how many of them are such incredible babies. I'll probably throw a vote Rupert's way.

kutulu · 05-10-2004, 11:34 AM

The jury was a bunch of whiney bitches. Kat, Jenna, Rupert, and Shii Ann are the only ones without their heads in their asses. It pissed me off so much when people vote out of spite rather than who they think deserved it the most. Shii Ann was the only person who actually thought Amber played a better game than Rob. Before she was voted off, she said that she was voting for the person who she thought would win if not voted off (Amber)

I liked Lex for a while, but I couldn't stand his martyr trip. It's fucking all-stars, the only way to get to the final two is to fuck people over. At the least, Lex could have respected Rob for being straight up with him when he questioned his intentions on repaying the favor.

Alicia was just plain dumb.

Tom had no reason to be so bitter.

Rob played such a good game. He was just about as good as the car salesman from Survivor Thailand.

As far as the fan vote goes, we voted for Rupert. He might not be the most deserving as far as playing smart, but he's such a great guy.

thespian86 · 05-10-2004, 12:03 PM

Just to let everyone know, I was the one who started Robfather

philosopherking · 05-10-2004, 12:23 PM

has anyone else watched the pleas for the second million over on the CBS website? I love that Rob C. played on Ruppert's popularity by saying he'd give half to him. I haven't decided who I want to vote for yet, it's between Ruppert, Jerri (it's the pitty factor), or Big Tom.

matteo101 · 05-10-2004, 02:32 PM

I am going to have to vote for Rupert. Rudy said that if he wins he will donate 500000 of it to the families of the victims of the war in Iraq. Still gotta go with Rupert though.

Amethyst · 05-10-2004, 02:46 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by philosopherking
I love that Rob C. played on Ruppert's popularity by saying he'd give half to him.

I was laughing so hard when I watched him. My husband voted for ruppert last night and I went back today and voted for Rob C. I guess you can vote as many times as you want.

kutulu · 05-10-2004, 02:58 PM

I always thought that Rob C was way overrated as a player.

Kostya · 05-10-2004, 04:08 PM

In Australia we didn't get to see the series with Rob Mariano in it.

The Amazon series was great, and before The Robfather came along, Rob C was my fucking hero for how well he played Amazon. The two were very similar, but what impressed me more about Rob Mariano, was that while both Rob's played brilliantly in their respective series, Rob M was the one who began to exercise explicit and complete control over the entire game. Perhaps things would have been different if Rob C had ended up in Saboga at the beginning.

Fremen · 05-10-2004, 05:10 PM

Too bad this show is more about gaming than about actual surviving.
I'd like to see a group of people dropped off in the middle of nowhere with only a knife, fishing line and hooks, and the clothes on their backs, and watch them survive for 2 months without all the stupid reward challenges.

Kostya · 05-11-2004, 02:53 AM

Somehow that strikes me as a show that would break a great many international laws...

Though, 'Lord of the Flies: FOR REALS' would make for compelling viewing...

Sensei · 05-11-2004, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by punkmusicfan21
Just to let everyone know, I was the one who started Robfather

I'm not sure if that's a bad joke or if you're confused. The term "Robfather" was first used on the show itself.

Sensei · 05-11-2004, 12:28 PM

I just voted for Colby. Is this because I think he should have it more than anyone else? Nah, not really. I'm a sentimental sucker too and also think it's right that Rupert will get the money. Colby does make a good case that he willingly gave up the million in Australia by keeping his word to Tina rather than taking Keith along with him to the finals. Just wanted to give him credit for that.

Piston Honda · 05-12-2004, 09:44 AM

The fact that you can vote multiple times is pretty bush league. If these people don't all have their hacker friends out there writing scripts, I'll be surprised.

The winner is going to end up having something like 2 trillion votes.

Tdoggg · 05-12-2004, 08:51 PM

Im Voting for Rupert also.....

frankgrimes · 05-12-2004, 09:20 PM

rob played very well, but not quite good enough to win. part of the game is to make sure people feel good enough about you in the end to vote for you. rob treated people badly and it cost him in the end. amber was smart in that she let rob do the hard work and was less offensive to the majority of the jury.

matteo101 · 05-13-2004, 06:15 PM

Spoiler: Rupert win's the million. Good for him, I think he deserves it, and i hope he uses it right. Maybe he can invest in a new wardrobe, and a good razor. Nah, im just kidding, he wouldn't be Rupert anymore...

05-07-2004, 03:42 PM	#201 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	I have always liked Rob. You can't win this game as a power player without lying a lot I think. You have to gain trust through any means necessary. Personlly, I was pissed when people like Vecepia, Sandra and Tina won since they were all coattail riders and didn't deserve the million. I respect Rob for playing the game harder than anyone I've ever seen. I was actually rooting for him on the Marquesas season, and I think he's learned a lot since then. This has to be the most bitter jury ever. Full of people who have now lost Survivor twice, and I will be interested to see how bitter they are in the final questioning on Sunday. If they don't respect the way Rob has played, then the jury is dumb. __________________ "You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

05-07-2004, 04:13 PM	#203 (permalink)
Averett Is In Love Location: I'm workin' on it	I cannot believe how bitter and self rightous (I cant spell for shit) these people are. I'm so sick of Lex's reaction shot and that stupid mohawk. He always looks shocked and disgusted. Come on people, it's a game for $1,000,000!!! Do you think they're going to play nicey nice? These people need to get a clue. __________________ Absence is to love what wind is to fire. It extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.

05-07-2004, 08:48 PM	#204 (permalink)
sexymama My own person -- his by choice Location: Lebell's arms	I must admit, I think Rob has a good chance; although I have a stronger feeling that Rupert could make it now. The jury is so mad at Rob that if he doesn't win amunity he is history. Sunday should be very interesting! __________________ If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

05-09-2004, 04:44 PM	#208 (permalink)
Averett Is In Love Location: I'm workin' on it	They had a maze challenge. They had to go through and find 8 (or maybe 7?) ladder rungs. Amber got through first... Now they're doing that stupid "look back on your fellow Survivors and weep" kinda thing. Lame I am so sick of the jury. They just sit there so condesending and rolling their eyes the whole time. Shut The Fuck Up. __________________ Absence is to love what wind is to fire. It extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.

05-09-2004, 05:48 PM	#210 (permalink)
Averett Is In Love Location: I'm workin' on it	The jury is so annoying. The majority are the most high and mighty people ever. Big Tom looked like a big old chump right there. I guess he's never heard of anything called the high road. __________________ Absence is to love what wind is to fire. It extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.

05-07-2004, 04:10 PM	#202 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Totally. If he actually manages to make it to the final two I don't see how anyone could honestly not think he deserves the money. The way he played this season reminds me a lot of the used car salesman.

05-08-2004, 09:22 AM	#205 (permalink)
philosopherking Crazy Location: Lincoln	I think the Jury will be able to set their feelings aside and vote for who played the game the best. Therefore, if Rob makes it to the final two I think he'll win. I kinda like the final 4 setup of Rob and Amber vs. Rupert and Jenna. If Rupert makes it through the next vote, I think that he has a good shot of winning the final immunity since it's always endurance based. His best shot from there would be to take along Jenna if possible.

05-08-2004, 01:01 PM	#206 (permalink)
matteo101 In transition Location: north, no south abit, over to the right, getting warmer...there!	I'm pulling for Rupert. Now that both Rob and Amber have a vehicle, I think that someone else should get the million.

05-09-2004, 04:39 PM	#207 (permalink)
happyraul Crazy Location: St. Louis, MO	Crap I forgot it was on, I turned on the TV right at the tribal council when Amber had the necklace on and there were still 4 people left. Can anyone tell me, what happened before that?

05-09-2004, 05:15 PM	#209 (permalink)
happyraul Crazy Location: St. Louis, MO	What was the deal with if there was a tie in the vote? I didnt get that part. seriously, the jury needs to quit being high and mighty and realize that they are jealous. looking at alicia says it all. obviously lex isnt gonna vote for rob, from the way he shook his head when rob said "i dont know if i have a chance of winning against either of them."

05-09-2004, 06:09 PM	#211 (permalink)
Averett Is In Love Location: I'm workin' on it	Aww well that was great __________________ Absence is to love what wind is to fire. It extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.

05-09-2004, 06:11 PM	#212 (permalink)
Fremen With a mustache, the cool factor would be too much Location: left side of my couch, East Texas	Jebus H. Crispy! Spoiler: I can't believe Rob proposed to Amber. He wins either way. __________________ Google Last edited by Fremen; 05-09-2004 at 06:19 PM..

05-09-2004, 06:11 PM	#213 (permalink)
Slavakion Mjollnir Incarnate Location: Lost in thought	Oh, man. Heh heh. And speaking of Tom, ouch. And the rest of the jury was pretty caustic as well. EDIT: PS, is it being tape delayed on the west coast, fremen?

05-09-2004, 06:18 PM	#214 (permalink)
Fremen With a mustache, the cool factor would be too much Location: left side of my couch, East Texas	I think so. Shit. I need to edit mine. Oops. __________________ Google

05-09-2004, 07:07 PM	#215 (permalink)
matteo101 In transition Location: north, no south abit, over to the right, getting warmer...there!	Awesome survivor is all I will say. Ile wait for everyone else.

05-09-2004, 07:12 PM	#216 (permalink)
Fremen With a mustache, the cool factor would be too much Location: left side of my couch, East Texas	Damn, Jerri is a primadonna extraordinaire. Audience: boo hiss Jerri: walks out __________________ Google

05-09-2004, 10:09 PM	#217 (permalink)
fnaqzna Meat Popsicle Location: Left Coast	I can see what she was thinking... Sometimes, Survivor resembles a Jerry Springer show.

05-09-2004, 10:14 PM	#218 (permalink)
Xepidemic Guest	who is everyone gonna vote for?!

05-10-2004, 04:33 AM	#220 (permalink)
Rubyee I'm baaaaack!	That was the one part I missed- I came back from doing the dishes and they said that Jerri had walked out. What happened? I guess maybe it was because I had never watched Survivor before this season, but I wanted the nicer people to win. I guess I understood that Rob played the best, but at the same time, how hard did he try, as opposed to Rupert or Tom? They worked a hell of a lot harder than he did, in my opinion. My vote is stuck between Rupert, Jerri (she was my favorite in the beginning) and Ethan (also my favorite in the beginning). __________________ You don't know from fun.

05-10-2004, 04:49 AM	#221 (permalink)
warrrreagl pinche vato Location: backwater, Third World, land of cotton	Rupert gets my vote. And did anybody put a gun to Jerri's head and force her to be on Survivor? Twice? Or pose nude for Playboy? She could have walked away from the publicity ANYTIME before last night if it was such a drag on her. __________________ Living is easy with eyes closed.

05-10-2004, 05:33 AM	#222 (permalink)
Averett Is In Love Location: I'm workin' on it	I taped the reunion show, went to sleep after they anounced Amber as the winner. I thought Rob proposing to Amber was sweet. They really do look to be quite happy. And I loved that he asked her parents So, the deal is that you get to vote for somebody else to win a million bucks? I'd vote for Rob.... He should have won anyway. Rupert is annoying. "You can't eat my fish. Oh, and you also can't use my spears to fish with." Uhh duh? I just hope that Rob and Amber don't turn into Trista and Ryan from the Bachelorette __________________ Absence is to love what wind is to fire. It extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.

05-10-2004, 06:22 AM	#223 (permalink)
Kostya Little known... Location: Brisbane, Australia	Screw the jury for not giving Rob the million man! I can't believe Lex's ridiculous attempt at moral superiority. Frankly, Rob played the best game of Survivor ever, I mean, he practically controlled the game from a few weeks in, he even managed to control the decision in a whole other tribe! Yet, when we get to the end, the jury, out of spite, cause they lost gave it to AMBER, who did nothing but ride the Robfather's coat tails to the end. Honestly, this was ALL STAR Survivor, did Lex & co really think it was going to be sunshine, lollypops and rainbows? No way man, the only way to get to the end of that game was to play hardcore, at times you would have to betray, that's the damn game. Rob played the game the best out of anyone, the only reason he didn't get what he deserved was because some jury members got outplayed and couldn't get over it.

05-10-2004, 06:42 AM	#225 (permalink)
sherpahigh So Hip it Hurts Location: Up here in my tree	Man what a load of bitterness on the jury. Boo hoo, I got out played and Rob told me a lie. Bunch of Drama Queens on there. Lex and Big Tom were the worst of the worst, total hypocrites. And what's with Tom going up to shake Rob's hand and pulling away? What are we back in grade 1? I hated Shi Ann and Hatch in the game but at least they're grounded in reality. Rob deserved to win but I guess in the end he's marrying into it anyway. Winner either way. I can't believe how many of them are such incredible babies. I'll probably throw a vote Rupert's way. __________________ "It'd be better for me if you don't understand"

05-10-2004, 11:34 AM	#226 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	The jury was a bunch of whiney bitches. Kat, Jenna, Rupert, and Shii Ann are the only ones without their heads in their asses. It pissed me off so much when people vote out of spite rather than who they think deserved it the most. Shii Ann was the only person who actually thought Amber played a better game than Rob. Before she was voted off, she said that she was voting for the person who she thought would win if not voted off (Amber) I liked Lex for a while, but I couldn't stand his martyr trip. It's fucking all-stars, the only way to get to the final two is to fuck people over. At the least, Lex could have respected Rob for being straight up with him when he questioned his intentions on repaying the favor. Alicia was just plain dumb. Tom had no reason to be so bitter. Rob played such a good game. He was just about as good as the car salesman from Survivor Thailand. As far as the fan vote goes, we voted for Rupert. He might not be the most deserving as far as playing smart, but he's such a great guy. Last edited by kutulu; 05-10-2004 at 11:36 AM..

05-10-2004, 12:03 PM	#227 (permalink)
thespian86 change is hard. Location: the green room.	Just to let everyone know, I was the one who started Robfather __________________ EX: Whats new? ME: I officially love coffee more then you now. EX: uh... ME: So, not much.

05-10-2004, 12:23 PM	#228 (permalink)
philosopherking Crazy Location: Lincoln	has anyone else watched the pleas for the second million over on the CBS website? I love that Rob C. played on Ruppert's popularity by saying he'd give half to him. I haven't decided who I want to vote for yet, it's between Ruppert, Jerri (it's the pitty factor), or Big Tom.

05-10-2004, 02:32 PM	#229 (permalink)
matteo101 In transition Location: north, no south abit, over to the right, getting warmer...there!	I am going to have to vote for Rupert. Rudy said that if he wins he will donate 500000 of it to the families of the victims of the war in Iraq. Still gotta go with Rupert though. Last edited by matteo101; 05-10-2004 at 08:15 PM..

05-10-2004, 02:46 PM	#230 (permalink)
Amethyst Addict Location: Illinois	[QUOTE]Originally posted by philosopherking I love that Rob C. played on Ruppert's popularity by saying he'd give half to him. I was laughing so hard when I watched him. My husband voted for ruppert last night and I went back today and voted for Rob C. I guess you can vote as many times as you want.

05-10-2004, 02:58 PM	#231 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	I always thought that Rob C was way overrated as a player.

05-10-2004, 04:08 PM	#232 (permalink)
Kostya Little known... Location: Brisbane, Australia	In Australia we didn't get to see the series with Rob Mariano in it. The Amazon series was great, and before The Robfather came along, Rob C was my fucking hero for how well he played Amazon. The two were very similar, but what impressed me more about Rob Mariano, was that while both Rob's played brilliantly in their respective series, Rob M was the one who began to exercise explicit and complete control over the entire game. Perhaps things would have been different if Rob C had ended up in Saboga at the beginning.

05-10-2004, 05:10 PM	#233 (permalink)
Fremen With a mustache, the cool factor would be too much Location: left side of my couch, East Texas	Too bad this show is more about gaming than about actual surviving. I'd like to see a group of people dropped off in the middle of nowhere with only a knife, fishing line and hooks, and the clothes on their backs, and watch them survive for 2 months without all the stupid reward challenges. __________________ Google

05-11-2004, 02:53 AM	#234 (permalink)
Kostya Little known... Location: Brisbane, Australia	Somehow that strikes me as a show that would break a great many international laws... Though, 'Lord of the Flies: FOR REALS' would make for compelling viewing...

05-11-2004, 12:28 PM	#236 (permalink)
Sensei Black Belt in Slacking Off Location: Portland Or-ah-gun	I just voted for Colby. Is this because I think he should have it more than anyone else? Nah, not really. I'm a sentimental sucker too and also think it's right that Rupert *will* get the money. Colby does make a good case that he willingly gave up the million in Australia by keeping his word to Tina rather than taking Keith along with him to the finals. Just wanted to give him credit for that. __________________ Slacking off with style since 1981.

05-12-2004, 09:44 AM	#237 (permalink)
Piston Honda Upright Location: Suburban Hell, VA	The fact that you can vote multiple times is pretty bush league. If these people don't all have their hacker friends out there writing scripts, I'll be surprised. The winner is going to end up having something like 2 trillion votes.

05-12-2004, 08:51 PM	#238 (permalink)
Tdoggg Upright	Im Voting for Rupert also.....