Watchmen comic book - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Shades · 12-15-2003, 11:25 PM

I read this kind of recently, and although I really liked it, I have one big question left. Why does Rorshack (sorry about spelling) have to die? My working theory is that his situation is analogous to the new pirate in the comic book that the kid at the newspaper stand reads, and rather than become the thing that he hates, he chooses to have John kill him. But I'm an engineer, not a philosopher, any thoughts?

MPower · 12-16-2003, 09:05 AM

Rorsach is black and white. Allthough Ozy did good by ending the potential war, he killed millions. Ror hadno choice but to let the world know that it was a fake, and then we would go back to nuking each other, so he forced Dmanhattan to kill him.

Tophat665 · 12-16-2003, 09:06 AM

Can't be put much better than that. certainly not by me.

Shades · 12-16-2003, 10:05 AM

Right, but I just figure that the pirate story has to mean something. After all, it's in every single issue, and with only twelve issues to tell the story, I don't think they'd waste all that space.

bartgroks · 12-17-2003, 01:09 PM

Part of the point of the pirate story was to illustrate the lack of superhero comics in the Watchmen universe. Also to give you a connection to the people Ozymandias killed. (both the newsseller and the boy reading the comic die in the phony alien invasion.) I do not recall a parallel between the pirate story and Rorshach's death. There may be one. i will try and dig up my trade paperpack and look for one.

Easytiger · 12-17-2003, 10:05 PM

The pirate story is a parallel for the lives of everybody in the comic. It reflects aspects of the minor characters and has moments of similarity with actions that Ozymandias performs (remember right at the end where Ozy tells Jon that he dreams about swimming towards a black ship?- that's also the last image in the pirate story), but its main link to the story is thematic.

The pirate story talks about doing evil while seeking a greater good. That's Ozymandias all over, and it is also reflected in the actions of Rorschach and the other "vigilantes".

/English teacher and major Watchmen fan

MPower · 12-18-2003, 07:21 AM

I cant remember but I thought that the pirate story was also written by one of the guys that ozy kidnapped and used for the fake aliens brain blast. Somewhere in the newspaper clippings it said they were missing, then found dead.

Easytiger · 12-18-2003, 02:59 PM

Yeah, that's right, though he wasn't kidnapped, just hired on the slyest of the sly. Was his name Max Shea?

Moobie · 12-23-2003, 07:32 AM

Yeah Max Shea. That was it.

Spoiler:
It was him and the artist lady that were the focus/mascots for the team of scientists working on the alien. Remember they're on the ship after finishing the project, making out in the hold of the ship, when they find the bomb.

Just in case.

hklong741 · 12-30-2003, 09:22 AM

Ahhhhh.....now this makes things more interesting... I always found the novel as fantastic, however the pirate comic was one thing i didn't think about. I wonder if the names of the characters in the pirate comic had some significance, maybe a reference to something else.

gilada · 01-13-2004, 03:30 PM

Yeah, the pirates were basically because they didn't need superhero comics, as they could just look out their windows. So they needed another form of escapist entertainment.

And if they didn't kill Roarshack, he would have ruined Ozy's plans (which he might have done anyway... who knows).

magua · 01-13-2004, 05:03 PM

My take on the Black Ship:

I think the Black Ship was actually a metaphor for Rorschach's view of the world. In the comic, the sailor performs gruesome deeds (making the human raft, murder, etc) in order to do what he thinks is right (save his family), but at the end, it's revealed that he's doomed himself, and he swims out to take his place on the Black Ship.

Moral being, the ends do not justify the means. If you do evil, you'll become evil.

And that's Rorschach's view. Ozymandias, and all the others, are...well, not comfortable, but accepting of an idea that'll kill millions to save billions. Rorschach isn't, because, to him, evil is evil, and there are lines that can't be crossed.

He forces Joe(?) to kill him, because he can't live with either alternative -- either he lets them get away with it (which means he has given in to evil), or he exposes the plot (in which not only will the millions have died in vain, but the Earth will be up for destruction again).

Troublebot · 01-14-2004, 07:53 AM

Excellent explanation Magua.

A bit off topic:

Back in high school, while all the other kids were writting college compositions on the signifigance of the white whale in Moby Dick, I took a crack at explaining Rorshach from the chapter "The Abyss Gazes Also..." Not an easy task, but I remember getting an A on the paper, possibly in part because it kept the teacher from reading another damn paper about Moby Dick.

Shades · 01-14-2004, 08:59 AM

Wow, Magua. I think you may have really hit that one on the head.

12-15-2003, 11:25 PM	#1 (permalink)
Shades Insane	Watchmen comic book I read this kind of recently, and although I really liked it, I have one big question left. Why does Rorshack (sorry about spelling) have to die? My working theory is that his situation is analogous to the new pirate in the comic book that the kid at the newspaper stand reads, and rather than become the thing that he hates, he chooses to have John kill him. But I'm an engineer, not a philosopher, any thoughts?

12-16-2003, 09:06 AM	#3 (permalink)
Tophat665 Minion of the scaléd ones Location: Northeast Jesusland	Can't be put much better than that. certainly not by me. __________________ Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

12-17-2003, 01:09 PM	#5 (permalink)
bartgroks Crazy Location: Dallas, Tx.	Part of the point of the pirate story was to illustrate the lack of superhero comics in the Watchmen universe. Also to give you a connection to the people Ozymandias killed. (both the newsseller and the boy reading the comic die in the phony alien invasion.) I do not recall a parallel between the pirate story and Rorshach's death. There may be one. i will try and dig up my trade paperpack and look for one. __________________ I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by Google

12-23-2003, 07:32 AM	#9 (permalink)
Moobie Insane Location: baked beans	Yeah Max Shea. That was it. Spoiler: It was him and the artist lady that were the focus/mascots for the team of scientists working on the alien. Remember they're on the ship after finishing the project, making out in the hold of the ship, when they find the bomb. Just in case. __________________ Obscenity is the crutch of inarticulate motherfuckers. We like money. Give us your money you stupid consumer whore.

01-13-2004, 03:30 PM	#11 (permalink)
gilada Psycho Location: Dallas, Tx	Yeah, the pirates were basically because they didn't need superhero comics, as they could just look out their windows. So they needed another form of escapist entertainment. And if they didn't kill Roarshack, he would have ruined Ozy's plans (which he might have done anyway... who knows). __________________ Hey, this isn't rocket surgery. See my futurephone pics at: http://gilada.textamerica.com See my DVD's at: http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=gilada

12-16-2003, 09:05 AM	#2 (permalink)
MPower Psycho	Rorsach is black and white. Allthough Ozy did good by ending the potential war, he killed millions. Ror hadno choice but to let the world know that it was a fake, and then we would go back to nuking each other, so he forced Dmanhattan to kill him.

12-16-2003, 10:05 AM	#4 (permalink)
Shades Insane	Right, but I just figure that the pirate story has to mean something. After all, it's in every single issue, and with only twelve issues to tell the story, I don't think they'd waste all that space.

12-17-2003, 10:05 PM	#6 (permalink)
Easytiger Insane Location: Tigerland	The pirate story is a parallel for the lives of everybody in the comic. It reflects aspects of the minor characters and has moments of similarity with actions that Ozymandias performs (remember right at the end where Ozy tells Jon that he dreams about swimming towards a black ship?- that's also the last image in the pirate story), but its main link to the story is thematic. The pirate story talks about doing evil while seeking a greater good. That's Ozymandias all over, and it is also reflected in the actions of Rorschach and the other "vigilantes". /English teacher and major Watchmen fan

12-18-2003, 07:21 AM	#7 (permalink)
MPower Psycho	I cant remember but I thought that the pirate story was also written by one of the guys that ozy kidnapped and used for the fake aliens brain blast. Somewhere in the newspaper clippings it said they were missing, then found dead.

12-18-2003, 02:59 PM	#8 (permalink)
Easytiger Insane Location: Tigerland	Yeah, that's right, though he wasn't kidnapped, just hired on the slyest of the sly. Was his name Max Shea?

12-30-2003, 09:22 AM	#10 (permalink)
hklong741 Upright Location: someplace cold and dark	Ahhhhh.....now this makes things more interesting... I always found the novel as fantastic, however the pirate comic was one thing i didn't think about. I wonder if the names of the characters in the pirate comic had some significance, maybe a reference to something else.

01-13-2004, 05:03 PM	#12 (permalink)
magua Tilted	My take on the Black Ship: I think the Black Ship was actually a metaphor for Rorschach's view of the world. In the comic, the sailor performs gruesome deeds (making the human raft, murder, etc) in order to do what he thinks is right (save his family), but at the end, it's revealed that he's doomed himself, and he swims out to take his place on the Black Ship. Moral being, the ends do not justify the means. If you do evil, you'll become evil. And that's Rorschach's view. Ozymandias, and all the others, are...well, not comfortable, but accepting of an idea that'll kill millions to save billions. Rorschach isn't, because, to him, evil is evil, and there are lines that can't be crossed. He forces Joe(?) to kill him, because he can't live with either alternative -- either he lets them get away with it (which means he has given in to evil), or he exposes the plot (in which not only will the millions have died in vain, but the Earth will be up for destruction again).

01-14-2004, 07:53 AM	#13 (permalink)
Troublebot Intently Rocking Location: Davey's	Excellent explanation Magua. A bit off topic: Back in high school, while all the other kids were writting college compositions on the signifigance of the white whale in Moby Dick, I took a crack at explaining Rorshach from the chapter "The Abyss Gazes Also..." Not an easy task, but I remember getting an A on the paper, possibly in part because it kept the teacher from reading another damn paper about Moby Dick. __________________ Howard Moon: The wind is my only friend. Wind: [whistling] I hate you.

01-14-2004, 08:59 AM	#14 (permalink)
Shades Insane	Wow, Magua. I think you may have really hit that one on the head.