Battlestar Galactica - Page 26 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

SecretMethod70 · 03-21-2009, 04:11 AM

They didn't rip off Hitchiker's Guide. The concept is ooooold, not to mention it was central to the original BSG as well.

Lucifer · 03-21-2009, 05:04 AM

Yes, it was central to the original series, but they arrived in our present, not our past. Remember the Viper motorbikes? I'm not griping (just a bit), I just think it could have been wrapped up a little neater. And everyone going their separate ways, just didn't make sense to me, like the Adama is going to live out the rest of his days in isolation? And isn't Tyrol going to get awfully lonely out there on his island by himself? Personally I think walking off into the wilderness with just the clothes on your back after living in an advanced society pretty well spells extinction. Could you survive, say in the mountains, with just the clothes on your back?

QuasiMondo · 03-21-2009, 05:21 AM

I don't think the fans expect everything to be spoonfed to them, when the tagline, "All Will Be Revealed," is in each episode trailer and one of the more important questions really isn't revealed, then you're going to have some grumblings.

Simply dismissing Kara, along with head Six and head Baltar as 'angels' seems to me like a cheap way out of coming up with an explanation and downright disappointing when you compare it to how well they handled explaining the origins of the Final Five. I don't mind a bit of spirituality and ambiguity in sci-fi, but when you use that as a means to tie up loose ends it gives the impression that they just wanted to wrap it up and get the hell out of Dodge.

Other than that, it was a great finale.

Lucifer · 03-21-2009, 05:40 AM

It was good to see Adama taking the piss out of Baltar when they were all watching the cavemen, but I was pretty pissed off when Kara vanished without an explanation. And saying she is an Angel, just doesn't cut it.

mrklixx · 03-21-2009, 07:18 AM

Glad I wasn't the only one that thought of Hitchhikers.

I also thought for sure when they were doing the final panoramic shots of ancient Earth that they were going to do the "There are those who believe" speech.

Willravel · 03-21-2009, 08:46 AM

Smeth's right, that classic science fiction ending started a long, long time before Hitchhiker's.

BTW, we broke 1000 posts right as the series ended. Pretty cool.

SecretMethod70 · 03-21-2009, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer

Yes, it was central to the original series, but they arrived in our present, not our past. Remember the Viper motorbikes? I'm not griping (just a bit), I just think it could have been wrapped up a little neater. And everyone going their separate ways, just didn't make sense to me, like the Adama is going to live out the rest of his days in isolation? And isn't Tyrol going to get awfully lonely out there on his island by himself? Personally I think walking off into the wilderness with just the clothes on your back after living in an advanced society pretty well spells extinction. Could you survive, say in the mountains, with just the clothes on your back?

Galactica 1980 is an abomination and doesn't count as the original series

The REAL original series started with the words, "life here began out there." The aliens didn't arrive in our present, they came in our past, and the original BSG has a slightly different take on it than new BSG, saying the aliens were responsible for the pyramids, etc. Kinda like Stargate :P

Adama went off to die, as did Tyrol. Adam said that without Laura life isn't worth living, and after such a stressful journey he was just done. He wanted to die in peace. Same with Tyrol. As for the rest of them, after running and living on spaceships for so long, they just wanted to actually live on a planet for once. And after everything that has happened, and don't really see anything wrong with people yearning for a simpler life.

The god stuff wasn't a cop out. Faith has been central to the show from the very beginning, and not all sci-fi has to answer everything with the "sci." Head Six said in the very beginning that she was a messenger from god. Turns out she wasn't lying, that's all.

guy44 · 03-21-2009, 12:55 PM

You know, I've seen so many different reactions to the finale (here and at the AV Club) that I'm beginning to be even more impressed with it. There's no way a show with this much mythology and twists and turns should have a simple, happy wrap-up that everyone finds acceptable. It seems like half the fans hate the fact that there are any religious or mythical elements at all - as if all the mysticism running throughout the series was just a head fake, and a perfectly scientific and logical explanation for everything was supposed to be just around the corner.

The other half of the fans don't mind the religious aspects, but half of those fans think that "god" and the various angels all need to be fully explained. These strike me as fundamentally similar to the fans who hate the religious aspects altogether, because what they really want is a thoroughly explicable answer to every single thing that happened throughout the run of the show with utterly no ambiguity or doubt left at all.

The final quarter of the fans, a group that includes myself, is perfectly OK with a) religion being an important piece of the show, and b) the religious aspects being mostly unexplained. As far as I'm concerned, the mysterious religious interference throughout the show, whether it took the form of Head Baltar and Head Six, or Kara's resurrection, or shared visions, or prophecies, or the hybrids' connection with god, added a layers I found both surprising and welcome. Even though I was jarred by the introduction of religion when it first appeared, I've come to accept that the very themes of BSG - human nature and society, forgiveness and redemption, even the meaning of life - cannot be explored without grappling with it. How could one construct a history of man's attempt to answer these questions without placing religion at the center? For our entire existence, humans have believed in mystical forces that hold answers to these questions, and whether or not you personally believe in such things I think any show with those themes that ignored the mystical would be incomplete.

Furthermore, the fact is that BSG has been blaring its intentions with regards to religion for a very long time. There were the prophecies that led the way to Earth, and the visions, and the Cylons' monotheistic beliefs, and prophecies that told Kara that she would lead human kind to its doom. Way back on New Caprica, Leoban called Kara an angel. Hell, Head Six (and later Head Baltar) was around since the beginning and always seemed to know precisely what was about to happen and how Baltar (or Caprica Six) should react in order to stay alive. Brother Cavill was introduced as a priest. I could go on, but my point remains that anyone complaining that unexplained religious forces played an undue part in the resolution of the series in its finale has simply not being paying good enough attention to the rest of the show. The truth is that the show has been proclaiming almost from the beginning that religious phenomena was a part of the whole, and I think a lot of fans simply didn't want to take it at its word.

More prosaically, I think the finale itself did an excellent job of wrapping up the story. The first half I think we can all stipulate to as being awesome: final battle, big scary booms, some fan favorite characters eat it, 2000's Centurions versus 1970's Centurions, etc.

The middle portion took place in the CIC, where the Opera House prophesy is realized as Roslin, Athena, Baltar, and Caprica Six each chase Hera down like a runaway superball until she winds up in the hands of Cavill himself. Here is the first moment some people seem to have a problem with - Baltar's peace negotiation - but I thought it made a lot of sense. By this time, Baltar has not only learned that Head Six isn't a Cylon plot by Cavill, the final five, or anyone else, and furthermore that CapSix sees Head Him as well - AND they can now each see the other's mind partner. So what else can they be but actual, honest-to-goodness, sent by god himself angels? After all, Head Six has spent years tutoring him on religion - maybe she was just telling the truth. So, by finally stopping his bullshit cult-of-personality religious leader persona and genuinely believing for the first time, AND by being one of the few people in existence with enough guilt on his shoulders to truly understand the value in forgiveness, he becomes the only one capable of brokering the truce that really will save humanity. Which just so happens to be what Head Six has been telling him is his prophesied role for a very long time.

Of course, all that gets buggered when Torey finally (finally!) gets hers when what seems to be BSG's biggest bugaboo about humanity, the inability to forgive and desire for vengeance, rears its Tyrol-shaped head.

So then hell breaks loose, Cavill shouts, "Frak!" and them instantly kills himself because he is, among other things, a badass, and Kara's weird Dylan-esque mental delusions finally reveal themselves to be the coordinates to our Earth, circa 150,000 years ago. There must be some way out of here, indeed.

The final half of the final episode is basically everyone's denouement, as the Centurions fly away forever, the fleet heads for the sun, and 30-some-odd-thousand folks scatter to live the simple life on Earth with the homeopithicuses or something. I loved this slow, gracious goodbye to all these characters. Helo gets to live, Roslin dies happy, and everyone splits into different groups. The controversial portion here is over Kara's disappearance - is she an angel too? How come she was tangible and didn't know her role as opposed to Head Six and Head Baltar?

While I was appropriately shocked at this development, I've come to realize: I don't care. I think that a) she's been called an angel for three seasons now, but more importantly, b) her disappearance was poetic. She never did fit in anywhere, and certainly even less so ever since she kicked and subsequently returned. As she said, her story was played out and whether Sam's final words (that he would see her on the other side) were because he knew she was really already dead or any other theory the idea that she simply stopped existing when she wasn't needed anymore is beautiful in a way.

Furthermore, BSG has said over and over again that this has all happened before and will happen again, and very clearly the point of the very last scenes (current Earth, Hera as Eve, the imminent danger of the Roomba apocalypse) is that intelligent life is a test in character and god is forever measuring us. It was true in the original thirteen colonies, true on the (original Cylon) Earth, true in the new Colonies, true throughout BSG, and true today. I like the idea that god fudged and pushed until the remaining Colonialists and Cylons landed on Earth so that we could collectively give it another go. I obviously won't argue with those who think those final scenes drove home this point a little too clearly, or too obviously, or with gratuitous use of Ronald Moore's face, but I find it hard to argue that this wasn't a point that the show has made pretty much from Day 1.

I suppose, in conclusion, that I think some folks should be far less harsh on the finale than they have been so far. I hope people take some time to digest it before declaring that it ruined the rest of the series for them or some other such nonsense (I'm look at you, AV Club recap guy). I, for one, am going to miss the frak out of this show.

Lucifer · 03-21-2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Galactica 1980 is an abomination and doesn't count as the original series

The REAL original series started with the words, "life here began out there."

Okay, well, being about 20 years older than you, I actually wasn't referring to Galactica 1980, but to the original series, which I am old enough not only to remember, but actually quite liked for the time! The episode with the pyramids wasn't on earth, it was on Kobol. Starbuck and Apollo were dead and Adama's adopted grandson, Boxey, was the main son-like character then. They went into the past, to WWII to be exact, to stop another Galactican from helping the Nazi's to create the V2 and influence the present.

SecretMethod70 · 03-21-2009, 01:32 PM

Hey now, I'm quite familiar with the original series. Age has nothing to do with it - that's what the internet is for

Everything on Earth was Galactica 1980, also known as season 2. The true original Battlestar Galactica had only one season and they never found Earth. It got canceled, and then brought back with a smaller budget (they reused all the effects shots from the first season) and with them suddenly having found Earth because the network was sick of spaceships.

As for the Egyptians, I wasn't talking about a specific episode, I was talking about the voiceover that was at the beginning of every episode:

Quote:

There are those who believe that life here began out there, far across the universe, with tribes of humans who may have been the forefathers of the Egyptians, or the Toltecs, or the Mayans. That they may have been the architects of the great pyramids, or the lost civilizations of Lemuria or Atlantis. Some believe that there may yet be brothers of man who even now fight to survive somewhere beyond the heavens...

Anyway, I don't even think the current BSG writers did it because the original BSG had the same concept. The point is simply that it is a concept which is not uncommon and predates Hitchhiker's Guide, that's all.

---------- Post added at 04:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:21 PM ----------

Guy44:I could not agree more.

---------- Post added at 04:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:28 PM ----------

Well, except for being initially shocked when Kara disappeared. I actually just thought it felt right. Lee turned around, she was gone, and like Lee I just thought... "OK... I get it... that makes sense."

Lucifer · 03-21-2009, 01:35 PM

I bow to your superior geekitude

SecretMethod70 · 03-21-2009, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer

I bow to your superior geekitude

LOL, nothing superior, I've just seen it more recently. When my brothers (who are about 10 years older than me) were younger, BSG was a family affair (before I was even born), so somehow that has made me always interested in the series. I was actually one of those people who refused to watch the new one for awhile. Not because Starbuck was a female, but I saw clips here and there and didn't like the tone at all when compared to the original BSG. Then, for some reason, one day after the second season had already ended, I decided to give it a chance and start from the beginning. I'm glad I did, because I was hooked right away!

Fremen · 03-21-2009, 02:39 PM

What I wanted to say has been said by you guys, way more elegantly, especially by guy44, so all I'll add is this,
Wow! What a great frakking series, and an awesome ending!

p.s. Cavill's exit was priceless and had me laughing out loud.

p.p.s. It was an honor to read your thoughts on the series, guys. Thanks.

Reese · 03-21-2009, 03:27 PM

I think Kara just started sprinting away and dove into the bushes when Apollo looked away.. but That's just me..

Willravel · 03-21-2009, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybermike

I think Kara just started sprinting away and dove into the bushes when Apollo looked away.. but That's just me..

Best. Theory. Ever.

Reese · 03-21-2009, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Best. Theory. Ever.

I put a lot of thought into it.

Willravel · 03-21-2009, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybermike

I put a lot of thought into it.

I just picture her giggling like a little girl behind the bush, then she turns around and Tigh is there giggling, too.

ratbastid · 03-21-2009, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

I just picture her giggling like a little girl behind the bush, then she turns around and Tigh is there giggling, too.

That man can act one-eyed better than any other one-eyed actor I know of.

I'm in the "thank gods for ambiguity" camp. lurkette has decided she prefers it if they jumped back in time, rather than having been in current-humanity's distant past all along. It reads as a more literal "this has all happened before", for her. There's no evidence for that, but she's decided it's so.

Reese · 03-21-2009, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

That man can act one-eyed better than any other one-eyed actor I know of.

I'm in the "thank gods for ambiguity" camp. lurkette has decided she prefers it if they jumped back in time, rather than having been in current-humanity's distant past all along. It reads as a more literal "this has all happened before", for her. There's no evidence for that, but she's decided it's so.

My dad is in the "Starbuck jumped them back in time" camp too. I tried to argue that the last "earth" they found didn't have such recognizable features.

Willravel · 03-22-2009, 09:08 AM

I can see Starbuck maybe jumping the Galactica back in time, but what about the rest of the fleet? How did they communicate with them to join the party at Earth 2: Electric Boogaloo?

Nopers, I'm 99.99% sure the Earth they finally settled on was a different planet than the burnt out Earth formerly populated by skin-jobs from Kobol.

BTW, how many times do you suppose "it"'s happened before? Are we sure Kobol was the first time the cycle happened? Is it possible that a much, much earlier cylon people survived and evolved into something very, very powerful that didn't like being called god?

Lucifer · 03-22-2009, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

but what about the rest of the fleet? How did they communicate with them to join the party at Earth 2: Electric Boogaloo?

They sent a raptor to the rendezvous co-ordinates. When they were watching the caveman, Admrial Hoshi showed up and gave Adama his pins back, saying that being admiral was more than he was ready for and it was the happiest day of his life when he saw the raptor jump in.

I think the earth that they ended up on (our earth), is another world than the burned out earth, i.e. they jumped in space, not in time. Both theories are plausible, considering it's all speculative anyways.

SecretMethod70 · 03-22-2009, 10:24 AM

It's not speculative, because I posted an interview with Ronald D. Moore in post #999 where he explicitly says that they are two different Earths. The Earth shown at the end of season 3 - where North America was visible - was a teaser of things to come. The Earth they found midway through season 4 - where the land was covered by clouds - was the ORIGINAL Earth, but not OUR Earth. Finally, the Earth Starbuck brought them to - OUR Earth - in the finale, was the final realization of that tease we saw at the end of season 3. Two different Earths, same time.

Will: Jane Espensen has said in interviews that in the BSG universe, humanity originally evolved on Kobol. It doesn't seem the writers have given any thought to other iterations of the cycle. There doesn't need to be some alien or super-evolution answer to everything. As far as the BSG writers and creators are concerned, there's just a higher power. What it is will remain an unanswered question - in their minds and ours.

Speed_Gibson · 03-22-2009, 11:43 AM

I have two questions having seen all of two minutes of this new show (which is 90 seconds more than my exposure to the 47 seasons of survivor).
Does this use more than just the names and ships in the original series, or tie into that in some fashion ?
Just what are these new cylons? I never have seen or heard if it was explained what they were in the first series.

Willravel · 03-22-2009, 11:47 AM

Oh my goodness.

The new series is a "reimagining" of the old series, in that it takes some major plot points and runs in a different direction with them. And the human-form cylons are a long story. I strongly suggest watching the whole thing.

cdwonderful · 03-22-2009, 11:56 AM

I loved the ending

Speed_Gibson · 03-22-2009, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Oh my goodness.

The new series is a "reimagining" of the old series, in that it takes some major plot points and runs in a different direction with them. And the human-form cylons are a long story. I strongly suggest watching the whole thing.

The reimagining is what I suspected it was. I have only seen brief trailers on sci-fi - something about cylons looking like humans. The Sci-Fi channel lost my overall interest years back and has yet to get it again for the most part; that excellent "Beyond the Yellow Brick Road" mini-series and the pilot for Stargate: Atlatis were notable exceptions though.
Nothing about these trailers has given me any cause to attempt to watch it yet. I am thinking now I should watch the original series on DVD (it has been a few years) and wait for this Caprica prequel to hit DVD to really start at the beginning.

Lucifer · 03-22-2009, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

It's not speculative, because I posted an interview with Ronald D. Moore in post #999 where he explicitly says that they are two different Earths.

See, when I said it's all speculative anyways, I was referring to the whole genre of science-fiction, FTL drives, artificial intelligence, speculative in the sense that we'll overlook obvious implausibilities and improbabilities and impossibilities (such as explosions in space [no oxygen, therefore no fire] and why isn't everyone on Galactica floating in the lack of gravity [gravity generators?]) in favour of a great story.

ratbastid · 03-22-2009, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer

I think the earth that they ended up on (our earth), is another world than the burned out earth, i.e. they jumped in space, not in time. Both theories are plausible, considering it's all speculative anyways.

Well they as much as said so, Adama and Roslyn sitting under their shade sail watching gazelles. "What is this place going to be called?" "We're calling it Earth." "Hunh! Really? Okay, Earth it is."

---------- Post added at 06:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:03 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer

and why isn't everyone on Galactica floating in the lack of oxygen [gravity generators?])

Um.... Shut up, is why!

Buk · 03-22-2009, 06:58 PM

Like Lee Odama said when Kara disappeared, "You won't be forgotten."

I feel the same way about this show, great conclusion to everything, it just feels right.

Zeraph · 03-22-2009, 08:58 PM

I just finished watching it and I take back my earlier words a few months ago. This is the best show on TV in a long time, probably in the top 5 of all time. Easily top 10.

The ending was beautiful. It was art. Everything came together perfectly if you've been paying attention. It reflected life, our struggle to define it, our racism, our violence. It balanced the scientific viewpoint perfectly with faith. It leaves it as a question, just like life. You can view the whole thing literally, that they really were angels, or metaphorically, creative license to bring about the end of the show.

What was the name of the missing cylon model that the original 5 boxed because he was too emotional or something? Wasn't it Gabriel? They never remembered much from those times, makes me think Baltar was a cylon after all. Just the only remaining model of his line. Also fits the angel thing (with the name).

SecretMethod70 · 03-23-2009, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speed_Gibson

The reimagining is what I suspected it was. I have only seen brief trailers on sci-fi - something about cylons looking like humans. The Sci-Fi channel lost my overall interest years back and has yet to get it again for the most part; that excellent "Beyond the Yellow Brick Road" mini-series and the pilot for Stargate: Atlatis were notable exceptions though.
Nothing about these trailers has given me any cause to attempt to watch it yet. I am thinking now I should watch the original series on DVD (it has been a few years) and wait for this Caprica prequel to hit DVD to really start at the beginning.

Don't consider Caprica the beginning, for two reasons. One, it's like watching Star Wars: Episode I-III first and saying you're starting from the beginning, when they're really meant to be seen after IV-VI. Two, Caprica takes place in the same universe, but is really being made as a standalone series. They're going to great lengths to make sure one does not depend on the other.

Also, you should really watch the new Battlestar Galactica. It took me two years to give it a chance because I didn't like the tone of the show based on clips I saw. Problem was, I wasn't giving it a proper chance. One day, I decided to watch the pilot miniseries and give it a fair shot, and I was immediately hooked. By the first episode, I had already decided that it was better than the original.

The re-imagining is more than just using the same names. The core premise is still there in its entirety: the cylons have destroyed life on the 12 colonies, leaving only a rag-tag fleet of survivors led by the Battlestar Galactica. The difference is that the original was a fairly cheery show considering it dealt with the genocide of the human race. The re-imagining lends the topic all the weight it deserves.

As someone who really liked the original and was hesitant about this re-imagining, I really think you should give it a shot. Rent the pilot miniseries (basically a 3 hour movie since it was only in 2 parts) and watch the first episode of the first season...and if you're not intrigued by then, don't feel obligated to watch any more. But definitely give it a chance from the beginning.

---------- Post added at 10:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeraph

I just finished watching it and I take back my earlier words a few months ago. This is the best show on TV in a long time, probably in the top 5 of all time. Easily top 10.

The ending was beautiful. It was art. Everything came together perfectly if you've been paying attention. It reflected life, our struggle to define it, our racism, our violence. It balanced the scientific viewpoint perfectly with faith. It leaves it as a question, just like life. You can view the whole thing literally, that they really were angels, or metaphorically, creative license to bring about the end of the show.

What was the name of the missing cylon model that the original 5 boxed because he was too emotional or something? Wasn't it Gabriel? They never remembered much from those times, makes me think Baltar was a cylon after all. Just the only remaining model of his line. Also fits the angel thing (with the name).

Number 7's name was Daniel, and he wasn't boxed - Cavil corrupted his DNA and killed them all. When Ellen resurrected, she regained her memories and would have known if Baltar was a cylon.

Other than that, I agree with you

Speed_Gibson · 03-23-2009, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Don't consider Caprica the beginning, for two reasons. One, it's like watching Star Wars: Episode I-III first and saying you're starting from the beginning, when they're really meant to be seen after IV-VI. Two, Caprica takes place in the same universe, but is really being made as a standalone series. They're going to great lengths to make sure one does not depend on the other.

Also, you should really watch the new Battlestar Galactica. It took me two years to give it a chance because I didn't like the tone of the show based on clips I saw. Problem was, I wasn't giving it a proper chance. One day, I decided to watch the pilot miniseries and give it a fair shot, and I was immediately hooked. By the first episode, I had already decided that it was better than the original.

The re-imagining is more than just using the same names. The core premise is still there in its entirety: the cylons have destroyed life on the 12 colonies, leaving only a rag-tag fleet of survivors led by the Battlestar Galactica. The difference is that the original was a fairly cheery show considering it dealt with the genocide of the human race. The re-imagining lends the topic all the weight it deserves.

As someone who really liked the original and was hesitant about this re-imagining, I really think you should give it a shot. Rent the pilot miniseries (basically a 3 hour movie since it was only in 2 parts) and watch the first episode of the first season...and if you're not intrigued by then, don't feel obligated to watch any more. But definitely give it a chance from the beginning.[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]
....

Still choosing to not not watch Star Wars Episode 3 after suffering through the first two in the theatre and not walking out by a slim margin on Episode 2. Hard enough watching Plan 9 from Outer Space x2 with better effects; I do love the Ed wood classic though when the mood strikes me. I did rent Episode 1 a few years back and watched the good parts - not a bad movie when the total running time is 25-30 minutes,
I think it was the dark tone in the BattleStar trailers that stood out to me. Seems fitting when genocide is the start and theme of the show; happy tones fit there as well as a bright musical set in the Rowanda horror. And it has been too many years since I have watched consecutive episodes or even one of the orginal; reading the wikipedia entry/fan sites would surely jog my memory though. That robotic dog stands out to me in the same manner as the robot voiced by Mel Blanc in Buck Rogers.
If memory serves I was unable to watch the mini-series when it aired, might give a shot one of these days though. The finale sounded utterly confusing reading about it on some news site.
I will wander off elsewhere now unless I have something more useful to say, starting to feel like posting in a thread about that Superbowl/World Series (strictly my opinon) "big boring sports game" that I fail to understand.
one last edit: I liked that episoe where Starbuck (I think) is flying that hijacked Cylon fighter back to the Pegasus and they know it is him because he "wiggles" the wings.

westothemax · 03-23-2009, 09:29 AM

Finally got time to watch the finale last night. Overall I liked it.

Athena seemed pretty reserved when dealing with Boomer. You'd think it'd be more like she pulls out her sidearm, pistol whips Boomer so she's on her knees, then executes her. At least that's what my wife would do if some crazy bitch beat the shit out of her, raped me, and then stole our kid.

Cavill's exit was priceless and kind of funny. Tory's exit was intense but fitting.

I don't think I buy the whole idea of sending all their tech into the sun to start over. I think with 38k people, some would not be willing to revert to stone age tech. Perhaps a group of survivors who wanted to hang on to their technology could've built a city on an island off the coast of Africa that the writers would imply was "Atlantis". Or something cutesy like that.

I felt like the way they handled Starbuck was kind of a cop out. But I read the post-episode Q&A and I guess I agree that it was better than if they had tried to explain it. Edit - I guess to expand on this after thinking about it some more, I liked Starbucks exit way more than if they had tried to work in something hokey like time travel or tried to explicitly explain she is not Starbuck the Grey, but now Starbuck the White or something. I guess my thinking is it could've been worse, and I don't think it was possible for the writers to come up with a good explanation that everyone would be happy with.

The end scene was kind of weird. Instead of Hendrix's version of Watchtower blaring, they should've just kept it playing quietly on the guy's radio in the background or maybe a street musician playing it, as a subtle reference. Instead of close ups of roombas and the creepy girl robot I saw on Engadget, just have the camera pan past a store showing the robots on TV briefly or something. I guess they did this to really get their point across, but for me it didn't seem like it really fit in with the previous hour and forty five minutes or whatever.

Also its kind of weird to think, God's whole plan for the Colonials and Cylons was to have Helo and Athena make Hera and then have her safely transported to New Earth so that she could get busy with some cavemen to make the species evolve into modern day humans.

kutulu · 03-23-2009, 10:59 AM

I loved the finale. Everything about it was awesome. I loved how the colors on Earth were so vivid. Everything in the show was always dark and cramped, it was a great contrast for the ending.

It took me a long time to accept the religion in the show. Now that I have, things fall into place. I'll have to watch the series again over the summer when everything is in reruns.

I do think the survivors screwed up at the end by starting over. By doing so, the eliminate the memory of what brought them to Earth and what eventually will happen if you build the machines. Instead, the thoughts to build the cylons remains imprinted in their DNA (just like their fashion ideas, religion, music, etc) and 150,000 years later they are on the path to destruction again.

ratbastid · 03-23-2009, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

I loved the finale. Everything about it was awesome. I loved how the colors on Earth were so vivid. Everything in the show was always dark and cramped, it was a great contrast for the ending.

Well, I loved how every planet had its own look, in the show. Caprica was really bright and white. Kobol was kind of brownish. "Real" earth was dusty grey. "Our" earth was gorgeous and blue and natural. Perfect. The art design on this show was always just exceptional.

Lucifer · 03-23-2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

I do think the survivors screwed up at the end by starting over. By doing so, the eliminate the memory of what brought them to Earth and what eventually will happen if you build the machines. Instead, the thoughts to build the cylons remains imprinted in their DNA (just like their fashion ideas, religion, music, etc) and 150,000 years later they are on the path to destruction again.

Sort of a "those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it" kind of thing, which now that I think about it, does explain the whole "this has all happened before and will happen again" speech.

Ratbastid, you thought Kobol was brown? I thought Kobol was green!

I watched the finale again today, and I kind of liked it, except I remembered one of the things that was bugging me about the finale in Africa: Where are the fucking lions? The only wildlife they can see are some gazelles and flamingos? What about the hippos (hippos kill more people per year in Africa than any other animal), elephants, hyenas, etc. I kept expecting to see a lion rip Roslin's head off when she and Adama were watching the gazelles.

westothemax · 03-23-2009, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

I do think the survivors screwed up at the end by starting over. By doing so, the eliminate the memory of what brought them to Earth and what eventually will happen if you build the machines. Instead, the thoughts to build the cylons remains imprinted in their DNA (just like their fashion ideas, religion, music, etc) and 150,000 years later they are on the path to destruction again.

Even besides that... to go from space faring tech to stone age tech doesn't make sense at all. Adama didn't want the fleet to lose Doc Cottle, but what good is he without any of his medical equipment, etc.? I think maybe some people would be willing to rough it out caveman style like Lee, but a lot of people would be too attached to things like electricity and stuff that they had even on New Caprica.

Lucifer · 03-23-2009, 11:55 AM

Yeah, they didn't look like they enjoyed roughing it on New Caprica in their tents, etc, yet there they are at the end of the finale, cheerily hiking off across the vedlt with their rucksacks.

Willravel · 03-23-2009, 11:56 AM

Going back to the stone age at the very least bought them a ton of time until the next human-cylon war.

Lucifer · 03-23-2009, 12:09 PM

Battlestar Galactica - Television without Pity

Quote:

What a silly, bloated, preachy, half-assed mess. It's embarrassing to see such great actors saddled with such unvoiceable, pointless activity, for so very, very long. After all the talk about holding something back and pacing yourself for the marathon, one would think the creators would follow their own advice, but then, this episode could have easily been written in 1992 when TV still had an excuse for sucking, so maybe they did.

Caprica Before the Fall: Tigh buys Adama a lap dance, screams "Woo!" sixteen times; Bill barfs on himself and decides to throw a shit fit and retire rather than take a desk job. Sean Ellison turns out to be a hot student of Laura's from when he was a child; she fucks him, smokes a cigarette, and joins Adar's campaign. After a long speech presaging Lee's undying love of democracy, Kara and Lee almost fuck in the same room as Zak but then don't. Caprica Before the Fall was fucking classy.

Galactica/The Colony: Everybody moves Sam's hospice-smelling tank into the CIC so that he can brainwave the Colony's Hybrids. Since they are female, they have orgasms and pass out. After about twenty minutes of "rounding the horn" -- which if you're not savvy means that Adama names each and every room in the ship and then a person in that room says Go! and it's riveting -- the Galactica t-bones the Colony. Next, imagine watching your little brother playing Doom on a PC for approximately sixteen hours. Boomer rescues Hera, and Athena shoots her a million times. Then Helo gets shot a bunch of times and disappears for about an hour and a half. While a bunch of CGI robots shoot at a bunch of other CGI robots, Hera runs off about eleven times for no reason.

The Opera House vision plays out, and Gaius (who joined after all) and Caprica scoop her ass up and take her... into Galactica's CIC. Which is the Opera House, which is cool: all Final Four standing around Sam's tank, glowing. Cavil pops up out of thin air and grabs Hera again, and Tigh promises him resurrection technology in return for Hera, but only after Gaius makes an embarrassing speech about how God doesn't pick sides because he's on everybody's side because we're all friendlies. Everybody immediately starts shooting at each other, only nobody actually dies. Except Cavil, who sticks a gun in his mouth hilariously and for no reason. Meanwhile, Chief chokes the shit out of Tory, because she's a whore and deserves it, but mostly because Ron Moore has discovered that the internet hates Tory and thought he'd give us a little present.

After the Colony is nuked and sent into the black hole with all the 145s aboard, Kara randomly plays "All Along The Watchtower" on the FTL boards, and the Galactica jumps to Earth. That is, our Earth, with North and South America, like we saw when she first came back from the dead because we went to bombed-out Thirteenth Colony Earth. That's a pretty good fakeout: "We're going to find Earth! Before schedule! And it sucks! But just kidding, because then we found Other Earth!" Then there is a lot of grass, some gazelles, and more grass.

Somehow the Fleet randomly shows up and then all the bridge officers lay down and talk racist imperialist shit about our ancestors, and then everybody decides to be freegans and live in dirt huts and make life suck for themselves even worse than on New Caprica, because cities are evil. Sam pilots the entire Fleet into the sun so that just in case anybody starts getting the idea that progress and intellectual development and the human urge to excellence lie anywhere other than somewhere on a scale between inconvenient and vile. There are sixty act breaks for no reason, and then back to more grass every time, so it ends up feeling like the end of that movie with the hobbits where they jump on the bed and then hug in the courtyard and then cry and then Viggo Mortensen and Liv Tyler making weird mouth noises and a necklace and Elijah Wood looking like he's going to throw up.

Then Kara goes, "This just got stupid," and vanishes into thin air because she's Jesus and her resurrection accomplished something or something. Lee stares around for a while and then decides to go climb a mountain. Laura finally dies after a hundred million minutes of staring at the grass and gazelles, and Bill decides to bury her and sit next to the cairn and pretend it's a cabin and talk to himself. Once again, the only emotionally resonant part is Gaius and Caprica, who are back in love and ready to make a go of it as farmers. This is intense because of how Gaius has always defined himself as not-farmer, and so after all the letting go and handing the cult over to Paulla really only has one lie left. It's maybe the biggest emotional step he's taken this whole show, and it's amazing. The angels show up and explain that there wasn't really a point to all of their bullshit except to keep Hera safe long enough to get her to Earth, and then Other Earth. Meanwhile, Helo and Athena teach Hera to surf and grow beans, and the Chief heads off to invent Ireland.

150,000 years later, RDM's hanging out in Times Square, where they've just dug up the remains of Hera -- or "mitochondrial Eve" -- who apparently 1) died early but 2) not before fucking enough cro-mags to populate the entire Earth. A great idea in theory (we're all descended from the Shape of Things to Come) but I guess I don't know enough anthropology to understand how that's not fucked up. Then Chip Six and Chip Gaius are basically like, "God and the Devil are the same thing, which is pretty much everything, but don't call it God because that pisses God off; and I hope you Earthlings of 2009 don't fuck it up like every other time," but even though Six thinks we won't, there's still a montage of Asimo and that creepy Japanese girl robot and like Furby saying probably we will. Because in addition to cities, artificial intelligence is evil and we should all become freegans and it should be Woodstock all the time. Or whatever, the "message" as such is not really clear but I guess we should stop doing terrorism and war-type stuff because the cycle of violence is no bueno whether it's with robots or other people. This part also, though, was awesome, and it ends with the angels walking off through Times Square, and the real "Watchtower" playing because ooooo.

The Excellent: The Kara/Lee flashback continued to be tonally perfect, both subtle and fraught with meaning, and the story brought both characters to elegant and moving conclusions. Anything involving Caprica and Gaius (or their analogues) was superb in its writing and execution, and I find I'm still finding more and more reasons to love them after the fact -- which, if you think about it, might be the show's highest triumph. The depth and scope of Ellen Tigh's story offscreen, those two kids did right in front of us over the past six years, coming to a place of compassion and empathy no one could have predicted. And of course the Twins, the Drunks and the Roslin/Adama Administration are six more stories I'd be proud to tell, if my skills were equal to the task. Thank God the show was, and is.

The Good: Great actors can make anything work, so you're treated to the usual lapidary performances (between the hour-long onslaught of shit blowing up followed by the hour-long onslaught of weird Prime Directive patronizing weirdness in the veldts of Tanzania). The truth of the Opera House was beautiful in its way, and the mysteries of Kara and the angels were left appropriately mysterious. (Which is not to say vague, but just to say the whole point of stuff we don't have words for is that we don't have words for it: try to put words to it and you end up with Pah Wraiths, so that's at least one lesson learned.) Taken as a whole, despite the draggy finale's execution, the narrative journeys of Laura and Bill and Saul are benchmarks of characterization, and that's as present here as it's been every other week.

Also Good: Boomer's arc feels complete, in that she accepts both the up and down sides of free will, which are pretty much her whole deal, and dies willingly to exercise both at once. Tory never had an arc beyond being the whipping girl for the entire cast and writing staff, so her end was at least appropriate (although it would have been just as easy -- and thematically superior -- to shift her down to the sickbay with Laura working triage and have her die there, which is basically the same chance Felix got with Gaius). And Chief's arc ended with Hotdog's sperm just as much as Athena and Helo this season became automatons randomly shouting HERA every fifteen seconds on the dot, so their fizzled endings seem just as clean. I can almost see it as a shifting focus throughout the show: S1 was pretty much about Boomer, Athena and Helo proportionally, so they've had their parts of the story already. I can handle that, I guess.

Less Good: Laura's arc in the present day started with a bang -- a wholehearted paean to Cottle's gifts to her -- but quickly paled as she did nothing but stand around not being dead and looking more and more like it, so that by the time she finally bite it, it was well past meaningful and right into manipulative. Not really a new problem, considering how many Adama crying/drooling scenes were anchored throughout the season as placeholders for actual development.

Not Great: Most of the two-shot dialogues (Kara and Lee's especially) on Earth had a faceless, generic quality. Much bombastic disquisition on fate, responsibility, identity that would have fit just as easily into the mouths of Kira Nerys and Odo, or Chakotay and Janeway, or Hawkeye and Trapper John... And did. For a show that banks on transcending its genre, the dialogue in this episode sure did sound like the easy-reader pablum you can expect from any other show (or telefilm, for that matter) on the network, with corresponding awkwardness from even the canniest players. Again, not a new problem: the old-guard SF writers (RDM, Weddle & Thompson) on staff have always had these genre-bound tonal issues, and the majority of viewers enjoy it just fine.

Which brings it home, because: if you like robots and shit blowing up, if you like watching people shoot at other people and occasionally grunt or toss off a wisecrack, if you like manipulative callbacks and clichés just for the fact that they're referencing something that's relevant to your past experiences, you probably loved the majority. If you like a little bit of fantasy in the mix, the very-very-ending might not have pissed you off too much. I don't know, because I don't know you and I'm not recapping your experience of the episode: I only know mine. But even if all these things are true, I can't see many people being all that patient with the six hours of unending prairie footage, the trite wishy-washy moralizing, or the haphazard tying up of loose threads in configurations invented on the spot and stuck together with chewing gum and ammunition. Still, shit blowing up and wisecracking gunplay makes more money than anything else, which tells me they're onto something.

However, if you thought the answers to series-long questions would be given their due, rather than snapped together like Lego around somewhat unnecessary character-building flashbacks -- and if you, like me, don't really care for robots, shooting, or TV science fiction -- there wasn't a lot here for you. I'm not going to say it was "bad," because what does that even mean, but I will say that I personally enjoyed it slightly less than "Crossroads," which I enjoyed slightly more than the episode where Lee dates a hooker, but slightly less than a root canal.

I've never understood "they're making it up as they go along" complaint about shows, because that's how stories work: you build a story a word at a time, you're always making it up as you go along. But there's a way to do this with reverence toward what's gone before, creating a greater whole out of the sum of all your parts, and there's a way to do it after a long night of coffee: assembling the pieces you've got on the table in front of you in a way that you think might fly, just to get it off your desk. Letting the plot "figure itself out" has lent itself to great intuitive leaps -- and the finest television show I've ever personally seen -- but it's also led to these last two season finales. So if this poor showing is the end of the marathon, I'm grateful they paced themselves as well as they did, for as long as they were able. I don't think we'll see a story this wonderful again in our lifetimes, and we are privileged to have taken part. And that's really what matters.

03-21-2009, 04:11 AM	#1001 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	They didn't rip off Hitchiker's Guide. The concept is ooooold, not to mention it was central to the original BSG as well. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

03-21-2009, 05:04 AM	#1002 (permalink)
Lucifer Husband of Seamaiden Location: Nova Scotia	Yes, it was central to the original series, but they arrived in our present, not our past. Remember the Viper motorbikes? I'm not griping (just a bit), I just think it could have been wrapped up a little neater. And everyone going their separate ways, just didn't make sense to me, like the Adama is going to live out the rest of his days in isolation? And isn't Tyrol going to get awfully lonely out there on his island by himself? Personally I think walking off into the wilderness with just the clothes on your back after living in an advanced society pretty well spells extinction. Could you survive, say in the mountains, with just the clothes on your back? __________________ I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls. - Job 30:29 1123, 6536, 5321

03-21-2009, 05:21 AM	#1003 (permalink)
QuasiMondo Wise-ass Latino Location: Pretoria (Tshwane), RSA	I don't think the fans expect everything to be spoonfed to them, when the tagline, "All Will Be Revealed," is in each episode trailer and one of the more important questions really isn't revealed, then you're going to have some grumblings. Simply dismissing Kara, along with head Six and head Baltar as 'angels' seems to me like a cheap way out of coming up with an explanation and downright disappointing when you compare it to how well they handled explaining the origins of the Final Five. I don't mind a bit of spirituality and ambiguity in sci-fi, but when you use that as a means to tie up loose ends it gives the impression that they just wanted to wrap it up and get the hell out of Dodge. Other than that, it was a great finale. __________________ Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer. -From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

03-21-2009, 05:40 AM	#1004 (permalink)
Lucifer Husband of Seamaiden Location: Nova Scotia	It was good to see Adama taking the piss out of Baltar when they were all watching the cavemen, but I was pretty pissed off when Kara vanished without an explanation. And saying she is an Angel, just doesn't cut it. __________________ I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls. - Job 30:29 1123, 6536, 5321

03-21-2009, 07:18 AM	#1005 (permalink)
mrklixx President Rick Location: location location	Glad I wasn't the only one that thought of Hitchhikers. I also thought for sure when they were doing the final panoramic shots of ancient Earth that they were going to do the "There are those who believe" speech. __________________ This post is content. If you don't like it then you are not content. Or perhaps just incontinent. This is not a link - Do not click here I hate animated avatars.

03-21-2009, 08:46 AM	#1006 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Smeth's right, that classic science fiction ending started a long, long time before Hitchhiker's. BTW, we broke 1000 posts right as the series ended. Pretty cool.

03-21-2009, 12:55 PM	#1008 (permalink)
guy44 Somnabulist Location: corner of No and Where	You know, I've seen so many different reactions to the finale (here and at the AV Club) that I'm beginning to be even more impressed with it. There's no way a show with this much mythology and twists and turns should have a simple, happy wrap-up that everyone finds acceptable. It seems like half the fans hate the fact that there are any religious or mythical elements at all - as if all the mysticism running throughout the series was just a head fake, and a perfectly scientific and logical explanation for everything was supposed to be just around the corner. The other half of the fans don't mind the religious aspects, but half of those fans think that "god" and the various angels all need to be fully explained. These strike me as fundamentally similar to the fans who hate the religious aspects altogether, because what they really want is a thoroughly explicable answer to every single thing that happened throughout the run of the show with utterly no ambiguity or doubt left at all. The final quarter of the fans, a group that includes myself, is perfectly OK with a) religion being an important piece of the show, and b) the religious aspects being mostly unexplained. As far as I'm concerned, the mysterious religious interference throughout the show, whether it took the form of Head Baltar and Head Six, or Kara's resurrection, or shared visions, or prophecies, or the hybrids' connection with god, added a layers I found both surprising and welcome. Even though I was jarred by the introduction of religion when it first appeared, I've come to accept that the very themes of BSG - human nature and society, forgiveness and redemption, even the meaning of life - cannot be explored without grappling with it. How could one construct a history of man's attempt to answer these questions without placing religion at the center? For our entire existence, humans have believed in mystical forces that hold answers to these questions, and whether or not you personally believe in such things I think any show with those themes that ignored the mystical would be incomplete. Furthermore, the fact is that BSG has been blaring its intentions with regards to religion for a very long time. There were the prophecies that led the way to Earth, and the visions, and the Cylons' monotheistic beliefs, and prophecies that told Kara that she would lead human kind to its doom. Way back on New Caprica, Leoban called Kara an angel. Hell, Head Six (and later Head Baltar) was around since the beginning and always seemed to know precisely what was about to happen and how Baltar (or Caprica Six) should react in order to stay alive. Brother Cavill was introduced as a priest. I could go on, but my point remains that anyone complaining that unexplained religious forces played an undue part in the resolution of the series in its finale has simply not being paying good enough attention to the rest of the show. The truth is that the show has been proclaiming almost from the beginning that religious phenomena was a part of the whole, and I think a lot of fans simply didn't want to take it at its word. More prosaically, I think the finale itself did an excellent job of wrapping up the story. The first half I think we can all stipulate to as being awesome: final battle, big scary booms, some fan favorite characters eat it, 2000's Centurions versus 1970's Centurions, etc. The middle portion took place in the CIC, where the Opera House prophesy is realized as Roslin, Athena, Baltar, and Caprica Six each chase Hera down like a runaway superball until she winds up in the hands of Cavill himself. Here is the first moment some people seem to have a problem with - Baltar's peace negotiation - but I thought it made a lot of sense. By this time, Baltar has not only learned that Head Six isn't a Cylon plot by Cavill, the final five, or anyone else, and furthermore that CapSix sees Head Him as well - AND they can now each see the other's mind partner. So what else can they be but actual, honest-to-goodness, sent by god himself angels? After all, Head Six has spent years tutoring him on religion - maybe she was just telling the truth. So, by finally stopping his bullshit cult-of-personality religious leader persona and genuinely believing for the first time, AND by being one of the few people in existence with enough guilt on his shoulders to truly understand the value in forgiveness, he becomes the only one capable of brokering the truce that really will save humanity. Which just so happens to be what Head Six has been telling him is his prophesied role for a very long time. Of course, all that gets buggered when Torey finally (finally!) gets hers when what seems to be BSG's biggest bugaboo about humanity, the inability to forgive and desire for vengeance, rears its Tyrol-shaped head. So then hell breaks loose, Cavill shouts, "Frak!" and them instantly kills himself because he is, among other things, a badass, and Kara's weird Dylan-esque mental delusions finally reveal themselves to be the coordinates to our Earth, circa 150,000 years ago. There must be some way out of here, indeed. The final half of the final episode is basically everyone's denouement, as the Centurions fly away forever, the fleet heads for the sun, and 30-some-odd-thousand folks scatter to live the simple life on Earth with the homeopithicuses or something. I loved this slow, gracious goodbye to all these characters. Helo gets to live, Roslin dies happy, and everyone splits into different groups. The controversial portion here is over Kara's disappearance - is she an angel too? How come she was tangible and didn't know her role as opposed to Head Six and Head Baltar? While I was appropriately shocked at this development, I've come to realize: I don't care. I think that a) she's been called an angel for three seasons now, but more importantly, b) her disappearance was poetic. She never did fit in anywhere, and certainly even less so ever since she kicked and subsequently returned. As she said, her story was played out and whether Sam's final words (that he would see her on the other side) were because he knew she was really already dead or any other theory the idea that she simply stopped existing when she wasn't needed anymore is beautiful in a way. Furthermore, BSG has said over and over again that this has all happened before and will happen again, and very clearly the point of the very last scenes (current Earth, Hera as Eve, the imminent danger of the Roomba apocalypse) is that intelligent life is a test in character and god is forever measuring us. It was true in the original thirteen colonies, true on the (original Cylon) Earth, true in the new Colonies, true throughout BSG, and true today. I like the idea that god fudged and pushed until the remaining Colonialists and Cylons landed on Earth so that we could collectively give it another go. I obviously won't argue with those who think those final scenes drove home this point a little too clearly, or too obviously, or with gratuitous use of Ronald Moore's face, but I find it hard to argue that this wasn't a point that the show has made pretty much from Day 1. I suppose, in conclusion, that I think some folks should be far less harsh on the finale than they have been so far. I hope people take some time to digest it before declaring that it ruined the rest of the series for them or some other such nonsense (I'm look at you, AV Club recap guy). I, for one, am going to miss the frak out of this show. __________________ "You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

03-21-2009, 01:35 PM	#1011 (permalink)
Lucifer Husband of Seamaiden Location: Nova Scotia	I bow to your superior geekitude __________________ I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls. - Job 30:29 1123, 6536, 5321

03-21-2009, 02:39 PM	#1013 (permalink)
Fremen With a mustache, the cool factor would be too much Location: left side of my couch, East Texas	What I wanted to say has been said by you guys, way more elegantly, especially by guy44, so all I'll add is this, Wow! What a great frakking series, and an awesome ending! p.s. Cavill's exit was priceless and had me laughing out loud. p.p.s. It was an honor to read your thoughts on the series, guys. Thanks. __________________ Google

03-21-2009, 03:27 PM	#1014 (permalink)
Reese Delicious	I think Kara just started sprinting away and dove into the bushes when Apollo looked away.. but That's just me.. __________________ “It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

03-22-2009, 09:08 AM	#1020 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I can see Starbuck maybe jumping the Galactica back in time, but what about the rest of the fleet? How did they communicate with them to join the party at Earth 2: Electric Boogaloo? Nopers, I'm 99.99% sure the Earth they finally settled on was a different planet than the burnt out Earth formerly populated by skin-jobs from Kobol. BTW, how many times do you suppose "it"'s happened before? Are we sure Kobol was the first time the cycle happened? Is it possible that a much, much earlier cylon people survived and evolved into something very, very powerful that didn't like being called god?

03-22-2009, 10:24 AM	#1022 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	It's not speculative, because I posted an interview with Ronald D. Moore in post #999 where he explicitly says that they are two different Earths. The Earth shown at the end of season 3 - where North America was visible - was a teaser of things to come. The Earth they found midway through season 4 - where the land was covered by clouds - was the ORIGINAL Earth, but not OUR Earth. Finally, the Earth Starbuck brought them to - OUR Earth - in the finale, was the final realization of that tease we saw at the end of season 3. Two different Earths, same time. Will: Jane Espensen has said in interviews that in the BSG universe, humanity originally evolved on Kobol. It doesn't seem the writers have given any thought to other iterations of the cycle. There doesn't need to be some alien or super-evolution answer to everything. As far as the BSG writers and creators are concerned, there's just a higher power. What it is will remain an unanswered question - in their minds and ours. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

03-22-2009, 11:43 AM	#1023 (permalink)
Speed_Gibson Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? Location: right here of course	I have two questions having seen all of two minutes of this new show (which is 90 seconds more than my exposure to the 47 seasons of survivor). Does this use more than just the names and ships in the original series, or tie into that in some fashion ? Just what are these new cylons? I never have seen or heard if it was explained what they were in the first series. __________________ Started talking to yourself I see. Yes, it's the only way I can be certain of an intelligent conversation. Black Adder

03-22-2009, 11:47 AM	#1024 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Oh my goodness. The new series is a "reimagining" of the old series, in that it takes some major plot points and runs in a different direction with them. And the human-form cylons are a long story. I strongly suggest watching the whole thing.

03-22-2009, 11:56 AM	#1025 (permalink)
cdwonderful another passenger Location: Youngstown, Ohio	I loved the ending __________________ Never try to teach a pig to whistle it wastes your time, and annoys the pig.....

03-22-2009, 06:58 PM	#1029 (permalink)
Buk Addict Location: Seattle, WA	Like Lee Odama said when Kara disappeared, "You won't be forgotten." I feel the same way about this show, great conclusion to everything, it just feels right.

03-22-2009, 08:58 PM	#1030 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	I just finished watching it and I take back my earlier words a few months ago. This is the best show on TV in a long time, probably in the top 5 of all time. Easily top 10. The ending was beautiful. It was art. Everything came together perfectly if you've been paying attention. It reflected life, our struggle to define it, our racism, our violence. It balanced the scientific viewpoint perfectly with faith. It leaves it as a question, just like life. You can view the whole thing literally, that they really were angels, or metaphorically, creative license to bring about the end of the show. What was the name of the missing cylon model that the original 5 boxed because he was too emotional or something? Wasn't it Gabriel? They never remembered much from those times, makes me think Baltar was a cylon after all. Just the only remaining model of his line. Also fits the angel thing (with the name).

03-23-2009, 09:29 AM	#1033 (permalink)
westothemax Insane Location: Bay Area	Finally got time to watch the finale last night. Overall I liked it. Athena seemed pretty reserved when dealing with Boomer. You'd think it'd be more like she pulls out her sidearm, pistol whips Boomer so she's on her knees, then executes her. At least that's what my wife would do if some crazy bitch beat the shit out of her, raped me, and then stole our kid. Cavill's exit was priceless and kind of funny. Tory's exit was intense but fitting. I don't think I buy the whole idea of sending all their tech into the sun to start over. I think with 38k people, some would not be willing to revert to stone age tech. Perhaps a group of survivors who wanted to hang on to their technology could've built a city on an island off the coast of Africa that the writers would imply was "Atlantis". Or something cutesy like that. I felt like the way they handled Starbuck was kind of a cop out. But I read the post-episode Q&A and I guess I agree that it was better than if they had tried to explain it. Edit - I guess to expand on this after thinking about it some more, I liked Starbucks exit way more than if they had tried to work in something hokey like time travel or tried to explicitly explain she is not Starbuck the Grey, but now Starbuck the White or something. I guess my thinking is it could've been worse, and I don't think it was possible for the writers to come up with a good explanation that everyone would be happy with. The end scene was kind of weird. Instead of Hendrix's version of Watchtower blaring, they should've just kept it playing quietly on the guy's radio in the background or maybe a street musician playing it, as a subtle reference. Instead of close ups of roombas and the creepy girl robot I saw on Engadget, just have the camera pan past a store showing the robots on TV briefly or something. I guess they did this to really get their point across, but for me it didn't seem like it really fit in with the previous hour and forty five minutes or whatever. Also its kind of weird to think, God's whole plan for the Colonials and Cylons was to have Helo and Athena make Hera and then have her safely transported to New Earth so that she could get busy with some cavemen to make the species evolve into modern day humans. Last edited by westothemax; 03-23-2009 at 01:00 PM..

03-23-2009, 10:59 AM	#1034 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	I loved the finale. Everything about it was awesome. I loved how the colors on Earth were so vivid. Everything in the show was always dark and cramped, it was a great contrast for the ending. It took me a long time to accept the religion in the show. Now that I have, things fall into place. I'll have to watch the series again over the summer when everything is in reruns. I do think the survivors screwed up at the end by starting over. By doing so, the eliminate the memory of what brought them to Earth and what eventually will happen if you build the machines. Instead, the thoughts to build the cylons remains imprinted in their DNA (just like their fashion ideas, religion, music, etc) and 150,000 years later they are on the path to destruction again.

03-23-2009, 11:55 AM	#1038 (permalink)
Lucifer Husband of Seamaiden Location: Nova Scotia	Yeah, they didn't look like they enjoyed roughing it on New Caprica in their tents, etc, yet there they are at the end of the finale, cheerily hiking off across the vedlt with their rucksacks. __________________ I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls. - Job 30:29 1123, 6536, 5321

03-23-2009, 11:56 AM	#1039 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Going back to the stone age at the very least bought them a ton of time until the next human-cylon war.