Battlestar Galactica - Page 15 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Gilda · 02-28-2007, 05:26 PM

I think Baltar is an interesting character. He's an opportunist, and self-serving, but not strictly evil, which makes him more interesting to me.

It's been a while since I saw the original mini-series, but I'm certain that he didn't sell out the Caprica defense systems. My impression was that Six was a silent collaborator who helped design the computer networks that Baltar was given credit for, which makes perfect sense when you think about what the Cylons did in the initial attack. It goes by rather quickly, but the basic idea was that before the armistice, the humans had avoided any kind of computer networking or AI development as a defense against infiltration of their systems by the Cylons. A couple of generations had gone by, and people had come to accept peace as the status quo, resulting in computer networking being acceptable once again. Baltar, at Six's urging, had taken the lead in helping develop these systems. Six had access because she was partly responsible for the design. It wasn't just the defense codes, but the fact that they were networked at all that allowed the Cylons to penetrate the defenses of the planetary defense systems and the Battlestars themselves.

Also, the Cylon detector did work; it's the other humans who don't know this.

This isn't to say that he's a good person or a hero, and I don't like him very but he's far from my least favorite character, and he really is very interesting. What he's done in his past doesn't invalidate his ideas regarding the social stratification of the fleet.

Col. Tigh, on the other hand, him I can't stand. Nearly everything he does sets my teeth on edge. Since Mrs. Tigh's very timely death, he's become the character I most want to see sacrificed for the greater good.

I had no doubt Adama would have had Caleigh killed.

Willravel · 02-28-2007, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Do you watch every episode twice Will? I've listened to a couple podcasts, and I've saved all of them, but I just can't find the time to watch every episode twice through for the podcast.

I watch every episode twice and then listen to the podcast. When it's Battlestar, you make time. Thanks to iTunes, I can watch them at home or work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Had Adama actually shot Cally, he would have been seen as a dictator and murderer, the whole fleet would have mutinied and all would be lost. Theres a fine line between military authority and actual murder. They may be at war, but supposedly Roslin is still in charge......she eventually did hear what the chief had to say......they could not exist with a subserviant underclass, that had no rest, no means of promotion, and most of all no hope. In the end Adama and Roslin realized this......maybe we should too...

They covered up the half cylon baby theft for over a year. I think they could have covered the Cally thing just fine.

DaveOrion · 02-28-2007, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

They covered up the half cylon baby theft for over a year. I think they could have covered the Cally thing just fine.

The fleet has already been split up once, it could easily be split again....you actually think that the murder of the chiefs wife could be covered up??? I have some swamp land you may be interested in.....

Ch'i · 02-28-2007, 06:12 PM

She does work around alot of machinery. An "accident" would not be so unbelievable.

Willravel · 02-28-2007, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

The fleet has already been split up once, it could easily be split again....you actually think that the murder of the chiefs wife could be covered up??? I have some swamp land you may be interested in.....

Coverups:
- Cylons look like humans (kept until 1x08)
- Adama lied about knowing where Earth is (kept until 1x12)
- Roselyn has cancer (kept until 1x13)
- Baltar is a traitor - or was fooled (kept until 2x13)
- Billy isn't a panzy (kept until 2x16)
- The final five are different (kept until maybe the Eye of Jupiter)
- Cylon baby is still alive (kept until very, very recently maybe a few eps back)
- Kat was a smuggler (kept until 3x09)
Spoiler: - Kara can see the future (kept until 3x16, you'll see)
There's so much crap going on, they could easily say that she contracted a disease or there was an accident.

DaveOrion · 02-28-2007, 06:57 PM

Once again I'll point out out that this is a fictional program,and the writers could conceivable have Cally be abducted by aliens and subjected to an anal probe. Covering up a hybrid childs existance is one thing, but covering up a murder is another. Adama wasnt at Cally's location, his soldiers were....now do you really think "the writers" would have the soldiers shoot an unarmed woman who had just given birth a few months earlier??? Its all supposition....the writers can write whatever they want...it would have been a real shocker if they would have shot her!!!! But they didnt....... good thing too, cause Adama would have had zero credibility then....sure he would have been following the dictates of military justice, but as a human being he would have been a total zero....

aberkok · 02-28-2007, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I find that listening to the podcast enhances my Battlestar experience. Included in this past podcast is Ronald D. Moore explaining how Adama would have done it. Just fyi.

Cheater.

I checked it out... you're right, but in the same podcast he concedes that the actors might have better insight into the characters than he might. I wonder what Olmos would have to say about it.

Willravel · 02-28-2007, 07:59 PM

Well the last episode Edward James Olmos directed was "Tanking a Break from All Your Worries", in which Baltar tries to commit suicide, Roselyn was going to throw Baltar out the air lock, and Admiral Adama uses hallucinogenics to brutally interrogate Baltar. I'll bet that he would have gone balls to the wall. Also, I think Eddie has it in for James Callis.

Gilda · 02-28-2007, 08:17 PM

I don't think they would have tried to cover up Cally's execution. It wouldn't have the deterrent effect Adama wanted to produce.

Willravel · 02-28-2007, 08:33 PM

Gilda, good point.

Gilda · 02-28-2007, 08:41 PM

DaveMatrix: We understand that the show was written knowing that Cally was going to survive, and the threat was there to create drama. It was, however, also there to make a dramatic point regarding what kind of man Adama is, and that's why we're discussing whether he'd have gone through with it.

aberkok · 02-28-2007, 09:28 PM

We know that killing Cally would have been the right choice from a military perspective, but I'm not convinced Adama would do it, given the opportunity. I don't think he wouldn't do it either. I'm just not sure either way.

The most recent situation I can think of that comes close was on the algae planet, where I think we can all agree he wouldn't have nuked the planet, given that Lee and Kara were on it. So I guess by comparison, Cally is far less important and he could have gone through with it.

Consider, though, that the fallout would be too great. Given Cally getting killed, what are the chances the ship's crew would continue to work? He already threatened Tyrol so I don't think a cover-up could fool any of the crew. Also, don't you think he's learned a thing or two about what not to do from Admiral Cain? She did something quite similar to what y'all are proposing.

Ch'i · 02-28-2007, 09:35 PM

Admiral Adama has moved past the perspective of self interest. He understands that his interests must be those of the fleet; his position is too important to the fleet to allow a conflict of interest. That is why I believe he would have killed Cally, and why he would have nuked Lee and Kara.

Willravel · 02-28-2007, 09:38 PM

Actually, I did consider the possibility that Adama would have nuked the planet. I would have been surprised, but moreso at the writers and not at Adama.

As Adama said, the union has no place in the military. The question really is how far Adama is willing to go to protect the survivors. Considering what we've seen over the past 3 years, that's pretty damned far. The difference between Adama and Cain is that what Adama does is put the interest of the fleet at the top. Cain put the interest of her ship at the top. That's a marked difference, though they may use similar methods.

DaveOrion · 02-28-2007, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

DaveMatrix: We understand that the show was written knowing that Cally was going to survive, and the threat was there to create drama. It was, however, also there to make a dramatic point regarding what kind of man Adama is, and that's why we're discussing whether he'd have gone through with it.

Gilda: Thanks for clearing that up for me......please continue with your discussion unabated by an opposing viewpoint....

Gilda · 03-01-2007, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Gilda: Thanks for clearing that up for me......please continue with your discussion unabated by an opposing viewpoint....

I'm happy to have dissenting opinions because it makes for good discussion, and I made no argument regarding Adama's actions in that particular post.

I was pointing out that we understand that it's a scripted fictional show, and we were discussing a different point--Adama's motivation--from what you were discussing--the writers' motivations. Even if the writers would never have had Adama have Cally executed, it's still possible that, taken from the character's point of view, that Adama would have.

aberkok · 03-01-2007, 08:44 AM

The thing is, we can't separate what the writers want, from what the characters want, from what the actors would have the characters do.

These three elements combine to form the result. We can discuss it from any angle we want.

To further clarify my point of view, the decision to shoot Cally was not actually in front of the Admiral yet... he was using it as a threat to get things back in line. I don't want to think about whether he would have done it if the gun (so to speak) was in his hand... I want him to be a good guy... damn you RDM for toying with my emotions like that.

Gilda · 03-01-2007, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aberkok

The thing is, we can't separate what the writers want, from what the characters want, from what the actors would have the characters do.

Sure we can. It's possible to discuss the resulting work as an entity in itself that exists separate from what motivations went into creating it as it exists. I'd even argue that, once the decisions have been made and the product finalized, it becomes an entity that exists separate from whatever motivations the creators had for it.

Quote:

These three elements combine to form the result. We can discuss it from any angle we want.

Of course, but what I was reading here was a discussion of what Adama would have done, with nobody arguing about whether it was a fictional, scripted show.

Mondak · 03-01-2007, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Even if you hate him, I don't think anyone would say Baltar is totally evil.

I would say Baltar is totally evil. After being responsible for the death of billions, and thinking perhaps that you might never get caught, but you would have the knowledge that you did it, how do you think YOU would act? Lets just got with this whole innocent lamb thing for a moment. Maybe you don't come clean because that would get you shot, but you do your damnedest to make amens for it. Instead of lying about Cylon detectors, elections, giving the enemy nuclear weapons, perhaps you would try and make sure that you would never again be "led astray". Nope. Not this cat.

Plain and simple he consistently hurts others to his own advantage (many times leading to their death). He does this in cases both big and small.

Now does the show need a foil? Yep. Do I like him or his (evil) character? Nope, he is a filthy POS who needs to be tossed out the nearest airlock.

stevie667 · 03-01-2007, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mondak

I would say Baltar is totally evil. After being responsible for the death of billions, and thinking perhaps that you might never get caught, but you would have the knowledge that you did it, how do you think YOU would act? Lets just got with this whole innocent lamb thing for a moment. Maybe you don't come clean because that would get you shot, but you do your damnedest to make amens for it. Instead of lying about Cylon detectors, elections, giving the enemy nuclear weapons, perhaps you would try and make sure that you would never again be "led astray". Nope. Not this cat.

Plain and simple he consistently hurts others to his own advantage (many times leading to their death). He does this in cases both big and small.

Now does the show need a foil? Yep. Do I like him or his (evil) character? Nope, he is a filthy POS who needs to be tossed out the nearest airlock.

I thought he was more acting under red-dress six in his mind making him continue on, with him not powerful enough to fight her. I've always seen him as more of a broken person, with serious issues, and as gaeta said, a huge urge to stay alive.

SecretMethod70 · 03-01-2007, 01:04 PM

Indeed, Baltar is, for the most part, a very weak person. Most of the things you mentioned, such as lying about the results of the cylon detector, were the result of Six messing with his mind. She (probably rightly) pointed out that if he had done anything about the results, Boomer would have killed him.

Mondak · 03-03-2007, 08:25 AM

First the fleet, now the rest of you. He has you all fooled. Pathetic. . .

I hope he runs in '08. . . Then again, there are plenty of him already running.

hagatha · 03-03-2007, 09:04 AM

I can't help but think that all this character development is build up for some really big event(s) that will really test the strengths and weaknesses of the main characters. And possibly form strange alliances among unlikely individuals.

SecretMethod70 · 03-03-2007, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hagatha

I can't help but think that all this character development is build up for some really big event(s) that will really test the strengths and weaknesses of the main characters. And possibly form strange alliances among unlikely individuals.

Let's just say, you're right

DaveOrion · 03-03-2007, 12:15 PM

Dont give it away!! Thank God, the spoiler was whited over! I dont want to know....Please! I hate to even see the previews....

Willravel · 03-04-2007, 08:01 PM

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

Ch'i · 03-04-2007, 08:03 PM

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

guthmund · 03-04-2007, 08:39 PM

That was awesome!

I've stayed away for about two weeks. Boy, am I glad I came back tonight. Great episode.

Ripsaw · 03-04-2007, 09:03 PM

Guess who's waking up in a big vat of goo?

Willravel · 03-04-2007, 09:13 PM

Spoilers, dude.
Spoiler: It's also possible that she ejected and was picked up by the heavy raider. Or, she's dead. We can't rule that out, no matter how painful it is.

Fremen · 03-05-2007, 01:24 AM

And once again, I forgot BSG moved to Sundays...

SecretMethod70 · 03-05-2007, 05:14 AM

If you haven't seen the most recent episode yet, I don't know what you're doing reading this thread in the first place. But just in case, my post is filled with...

***SPOILERS***

So, I knew Starbuck was going to "die" as far as Galactica was concerned. The fact she was done shooting for the season after this episode wasn't exactly a well-kept secret, but I wasn't sure exactly what was going to happen. I have to say, I'm a bit disappointed.

Either 1) her "destiny" was to accept death, in which case it's the Lamest Destiny EVAR (TM), or 2) there's more to her destiny we were not shown. If there's more to it, they should have had some shocking revelation in the last moments of this episode, because without that final revelation as a cliffhanger, I'm left no choice but to assume #1 - her "destiny" is to accept death, and also the lamest excuse to kill off a character I've seen in a long time. If all they're doing is killing her off, they should have given her a death that makes more sense, not "gee, death's not so bad, I guess I'll just let myself die for no reason now." By bringing destiny into the picture, it makes it seem like there's more to her death than that, but you could have fooled me after watching last night's episode.

All it would have taken was a quick 10 seconds: show her wake up on a baseship, show her find herself transported through a wormhole, whatever. Just show SOMETHING to indicate that there's more to the episode than "Starbuck's destiny is to accept death." But, they didn't show anything else, all they showed is Starbuck blowing up. And no matter what they show at a later date, it doesn't change that this episode felt like one big contrived excuse to kill off her character - even more contrived than the excuse to kill off Kat - and nothing more.

ASU2003 · 03-05-2007, 05:51 AM

I was shocked last night, and I'm still shocked. I can't believe that they did that to a main character. I thought she was going to survive again.

Ch'i · 03-05-2007, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

If you haven't seen the most recent episode yet, I don't know what you're doing reading this thread in the first place. But just in case, my post is filled with...

***SPOILERS***

So, I knew Starbuck was going to "die" as far as Galactica was concerned. The fact she was done shooting for the season after this episode wasn't exactly a well-kept secret, but I wasn't sure exactly what was going to happen. I have to say, I'm a bit disappointed.

Either 1) her "destiny" was to accept death, in which case it's the Lamest Destiny EVAR (TM), or 2) there's more to her destiny we were not shown. If there's more to it, they should have had some shocking revelation in the last moments of this episode, because without that final revelation as a cliffhanger, I'm left no choice but to assume #1 - her "destiny" is to accept death, and also the lamest excuse to kill off a character I've seen in a long time. If all they're doing is killing her off, they should have given her a death that makes more sense, not "gee, death's not so bad, I guess I'll just let myself die for no reason now." By bringing destiny into the picture, it makes it seem like there's more to her death than that, but you could have fooled me after watching last night's episode.

All it would have taken was a quick 10 seconds: show her wake up on a baseship, show her find herself transported through a wormhole, whatever. Just show SOMETHING to indicate that there's more to the episode than "Starbuck's destiny is to accept death." But, they didn't show anything else, all they showed is Starbuck blowing up. And no matter what they show at a later date, it doesn't change that this episode felt like one big contrived excuse to kill off her character - even more contrived than the excuse to kill off Kat - and nothing more.

Where would be the fun in that? If Ronald Moore put something like that into the end of the episode it would completely take away from the shock of her dying because we would immediately know she was alright. I think its a great cliffhanger.

Kadath · 03-05-2007, 10:59 AM

Now I'm even more convinced she's a Cylon.

SecretMethod70 · 03-05-2007, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch'i

Where would be the fun in that? If Ronald Moore put something like that into the end of the episode it would completely take away from the shock of her dying because we would immediately know she was alright. I think its a great cliffhanger.

See, the way the episode was filmed was not as a cliffhanger. It was filmed as the death of Starbuck - no more, no less. A cliffhanger would be to show a quick flash of her being alive somewhere: maybe a flash of her waking up on a baseship, or perhaps a quick moment where she's alive in some other dimension, or whatever. Instead, we were given an episode that wraps everything up, with her accepting death. No indication that there's more to come, except out faith as fans that the people behind BSG wouldn't write such a crappy and pointless death (and destiny) for a major character. I shouldn't have to rely on my faith in the writers to know that someone's death is a cliffhanger: they should have made some indication of it.

Willravel · 03-05-2007, 01:43 PM

Being a BSG fan is all about having faith in the writers. Remember 'one year later'? Usually shows do that at the end of the series, but BSG did it when the ratings were strong and the show showed no signs of cancellation. From experience, we know the writers are allowed to really move in unorthodox directions. No matter what the outcome, I'd say this is one of those unorthodox directions.

That being said, I'm really pissed that we don't get any new Starbuck until October 2007.

It's be funny if Anders made a pass at Dee.....

SecretMethod70 · 03-05-2007, 02:44 PM

That's the thing though: "One Year Later" *IS* a cliffhanger. It's easy to have faith when you're thrown a bone. The whole point of a cliffhanger is that you're given a strong hint of what's to come, but have to wait to find out how it plays out.

Think of it this way: this past episode with Starbuck was the equivalent of watching the season 1 finale where Adama gets shot and at the end of the episode he's declared dead. As a viewer, you're left with nothing other than to assume that what you've been shown is accurate - Adama is dead. Sure, the writers may reverse that in the season 2 premiere - someone will suddenly discover Adama is still alive but barely - but since you weren't given any concrete indication that there was more to come in that storyline, you spent the previous months thinking Adama was dead and with that as the primary image in your mind.

Better yet, an example from Star Trek. This past episode is the equivalent of watching an episode of Star Trek where a ship blows up with a major character in it, before they could be transported out, and then we see everyone sad that the major character is dead and they have a funeral for that person and everything. Next season, we suddenly discover that the person has been trapped in the transporter buffer and they manage to save that person. That's not a cliffhanger, that's just stupid. If it were a cliffhanger, the episode would have ended with some indication that the person is stuck in the transporter buffer and we'll be waiting anxiously for the next season to see how the crew gets them out of there.

Cliffhangers do not trick you. They entice you. Killing Starbuck only to bring her back in some way at a later date is tricking the viewer, and not even in a good way, because as far as death stories go this past episode was pretty bad. The only excuse for spending an hour with completely transparent references that say "LOOK! STARBUCK'S GOING TO DIE! LOOK HERE! LOOK HERE!!" is if you're going to give the audience something to redeem the episode at the end: a cliffhanger. A cliffhanger, by definition, leaves a very obvious opening without answering what is on the other side. That's why I say an extra 10 seconds or so would have saved this episode. They don't even have to answer why she's still alive, just show that she is. For example, they could show a close shot of Starbuck's face waking up - we don't have to see whether it's on a resurrection ship or in another dimension or anything, just something to show us "there's more to come." Instead, we're left with an episode that wraps up neatly and doesn't give any indication (beyond "I refuse to believe this episode was THAT pointless") that there was more to Starbuck's death than accepting death.

EDIT: And trust me, I don't enjoy saying this. BSG is easily my favorite show on television, but this past episode was just bad, and that's assuming they ARE going to do more with Starbuck. If they don't, then the episode was just plain terrible.

hagatha · 03-05-2007, 03:11 PM

I agree her death at this point seems pointless, however if we are to believe she is destined to do something, I suspect that means she is more useful to Gallactica dead than alive. So does that mean returning as a useful "spirit" ?
I suspect some sort of post- death incarnation of this character to appear in future episodes.

Willravel · 03-05-2007, 07:20 PM

Maybe her death serves to focus other characters, Lee, Anders, etc. Listening to the podcast, and please listen to the podcast, it seems as if she may not return but in memories. It's a damn shame, but I see it as being reasonable if for no other reason but it's realistic. Sure, most shows would never dream of losing a real main character. Riker would never die on TNG, for example. The reality is that in real life people die, especially in a war situation and especially especially when they are in a war situation and suffering from mental illness and are warriors. It's escaping from the bs marketing-driven part of fictional writing. While I will sorely miss the Starbuck character, I understand and I'll move on. If she does come back, great. If not, it's okay.

02-28-2007, 05:26 PM	#561 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	I think Baltar is an interesting character. He's an opportunist, and self-serving, but not strictly evil, which makes him more interesting to me. It's been a while since I saw the original mini-series, but I'm certain that he didn't sell out the Caprica defense systems. My impression was that Six was a silent collaborator who helped design the computer networks that Baltar was given credit for, which makes perfect sense when you think about what the Cylons did in the initial attack. It goes by rather quickly, but the basic idea was that before the armistice, the humans had avoided any kind of computer networking or AI development as a defense against infiltration of their systems by the Cylons. A couple of generations had gone by, and people had come to accept peace as the status quo, resulting in computer networking being acceptable once again. Baltar, at Six's urging, had taken the lead in helping develop these systems. Six had access because she was partly responsible for the design. It wasn't just the defense codes, but the fact that they were networked at all that allowed the Cylons to penetrate the defenses of the planetary defense systems and the Battlestars themselves. Also, the Cylon detector did work; it's the other humans who don't know this. This isn't to say that he's a good person or a hero, and I don't like him very but he's far from my least favorite character, and he really is very interesting. What he's done in his past doesn't invalidate his ideas regarding the social stratification of the fleet. Col. Tigh, on the other hand, him I can't stand. Nearly everything he does sets my teeth on edge. Since Mrs. Tigh's very timely death, he's become the character I most want to see sacrificed for the greater good. I had no doubt Adama would have had Caleigh killed. __________________ I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert Last edited by Gilda; 02-28-2007 at 05:29 PM..

02-28-2007, 06:57 PM	#566 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Once again I'll point out out that this is a fictional program,and the writers could conceivable have Cally be abducted by aliens and subjected to an anal probe. Covering up a hybrid childs existance is one thing, but covering up a murder is another. Adama wasnt at Cally's location, his soldiers were....now do you really think "the writers" would have the soldiers shoot an unarmed woman who had just given birth a few months earlier??? Its all supposition....the writers can write whatever they want...it would have been a real shocker if they would have shot her!!!! But they didnt....... good thing too, cause Adama would have had zero credibility then....sure he would have been following the dictates of military justice, but as a human being he would have been a total zero.... __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

02-28-2007, 08:17 PM	#569 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	I don't think they would have tried to cover up Cally's execution. It wouldn't have the deterrent effect Adama wanted to produce. __________________ I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert

02-28-2007, 08:41 PM	#571 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	DaveMatrix: We understand that the show was written knowing that Cally was going to survive, and the threat was there to create drama. It was, however, also there to make a dramatic point regarding what kind of man Adama is, and that's why we're discussing whether he'd have gone through with it. __________________ I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert

02-28-2007, 09:28 PM	#572 (permalink)
aberkok “Wrong is right.” Location: toronto	We know that killing Cally would have been the right choice from a military perspective, but I'm not convinced Adama would do it, given the opportunity. I don't think he wouldn't do it either. I'm just not sure either way. The most recent situation I can think of that comes close was on the algae planet, where I think we can all agree he wouldn't have nuked the planet, given that Lee and Kara were on it. So I guess by comparison, Cally is far less important and he could have gone through with it. Consider, though, that the fallout would be too great. Given Cally getting killed, what are the chances the ship's crew would continue to work? He already threatened Tyrol so I don't think a cover-up could fool any of the crew. Also, don't you think he's learned a thing or two about what not to do from Admiral Cain? She did something quite similar to what y'all are proposing. __________________ !check out my new blog! http://arkanamusic.wordpress.com Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

02-28-2007, 06:12 PM	#564 (permalink)
Ch'i Artist of Life	She does work around alot of machinery. An "accident" would not be so unbelievable.

02-28-2007, 07:59 PM	#568 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Well the last episode Edward James Olmos directed was "Tanking a Break from All Your Worries", in which Baltar tries to commit suicide, Roselyn was going to throw Baltar out the air lock, and Admiral Adama uses hallucinogenics to brutally interrogate Baltar. I'll bet that he would have gone balls to the wall. Also, I think Eddie has it in for James Callis.

02-28-2007, 08:33 PM	#570 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Gilda, good point.

02-28-2007, 09:35 PM	#573 (permalink)
Ch'i Artist of Life	Admiral Adama has moved past the perspective of self interest. He understands that his interests must be those of the fleet; his position is too important to the fleet to allow a conflict of interest. That is why I believe he would have killed Cally, and why he would have nuked Lee and Kara. Last edited by Ch'i; 03-01-2007 at 12:29 AM..

02-28-2007, 09:38 PM	#574 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Actually, I did consider the possibility that Adama would have nuked the planet. I would have been surprised, but moreso at the writers and not at Adama. As Adama said, the union has no place in the military. The question really is how far Adama is willing to go to protect the survivors. Considering what we've seen over the past 3 years, that's pretty damned far. The difference between Adama and Cain is that what Adama does is put the interest of the fleet at the top. Cain put the interest of her ship at the top. That's a marked difference, though they may use similar methods.

03-01-2007, 08:44 AM	#577 (permalink)
aberkok “Wrong is right.” Location: toronto	The thing is, we can't separate what the writers want, from what the characters want, from what the actors would have the characters do. These three elements combine to form the result. We can discuss it from any angle we want. To further clarify my point of view, the decision to shoot Cally was not actually in front of the Admiral yet... he was using it as a threat to get things back in line. I don't want to think about whether he would have done it if the gun (so to speak) was in his hand... I want him to be a good guy... damn you RDM for toying with my emotions like that. __________________ !check out my new blog! http://arkanamusic.wordpress.com Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

03-01-2007, 01:04 PM	#581 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Indeed, Baltar is, for the most part, a very weak person. Most of the things you mentioned, such as lying about the results of the cylon detector, were the result of Six messing with his mind. She (probably rightly) pointed out that if he had done anything about the results, Boomer would have killed him. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

03-03-2007, 08:25 AM	#582 (permalink)
Mondak Industrialist Location: Southern California	First the fleet, now the rest of you. He has you all fooled. Pathetic. . . I hope he runs in '08. . . Then again, there are plenty of him already running. __________________ All truth passes through three stages: First it is ridiculed Second, it is violently opposed and Third, it is accepted as self-evident. ARTHUR SCHOPENHAUER (1788-1860)

03-03-2007, 09:04 AM	#583 (permalink)
hagatha Addict	I can't help but think that all this character development is build up for some really big event(s) that will really test the strengths and weaknesses of the main characters. And possibly form strange alliances among unlikely individuals. __________________ Thats the last time I trust the strangest people I ever met....H. Simpson

03-03-2007, 12:15 PM	#585 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Dont give it away!! Thank God, the spoiler was whited over! I dont want to know....Please! I hate to even see the previews.... __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

03-04-2007, 08:01 PM	#586 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

03-04-2007, 08:03 PM	#587 (permalink)
Ch'i Artist of Life	!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

03-04-2007, 08:39 PM	#588 (permalink)
guthmund big damn hero	That was awesome! I've stayed away for about two weeks. Boy, am I glad I came back tonight. Great episode. __________________ No signature. None. Seriously.

03-04-2007, 09:03 PM	#589 (permalink)
Ripsaw Chef in Training	Guess who's waking up in a big vat of goo? __________________ "We are supposed to be masters of space, but we cant even line up our shoes?" One life, one chance, one opportunity.

03-04-2007, 09:13 PM	#590 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Spoilers, dude. Spoiler: It's also possible that she ejected and was picked up by the heavy raider. Or, she's dead. We can't rule that out, no matter how painful it is.

03-05-2007, 01:24 AM	#591 (permalink)
Fremen With a mustache, the cool factor would be too much Location: left side of my couch, East Texas	And once again, I forgot BSG moved to Sundays... __________________ Google

03-05-2007, 05:14 AM	#592 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	If you haven't seen the most recent episode yet, I don't know what you're doing reading this thread in the first place. But just in case, my post is filled with... *SPOILERS* So, I knew Starbuck was going to "die" as far as Galactica was concerned. The fact she was done shooting for the season after this episode wasn't exactly a well-kept secret, but I wasn't sure exactly what was going to happen. I have to say, I'm a bit disappointed. Either 1) her "destiny" was to accept death, in which case it's the Lamest Destiny EVAR (TM), or 2) there's more to her destiny we were not shown. If there's more to it, they should have had some shocking revelation in the last moments of this episode, because without that final revelation as a cliffhanger, I'm left no choice but to assume #1 - her "destiny" is to accept death, and also the lamest excuse to kill off a character I've seen in a long time. If all they're doing is killing her off, they should have given her a death that makes more sense, not "gee, death's not so bad, I guess I'll just let myself die for no reason now." By bringing destiny into the picture, it makes it seem like there's more to her death than that, but you could have fooled me after watching last night's episode. All it would have taken was a quick 10 seconds: show her wake up on a baseship, show her find herself transported through a wormhole, whatever. Just show SOMETHING to indicate that there's more to the episode than "Starbuck's destiny is to accept death." But, they didn't show anything else, all they showed is Starbuck blowing up. And no matter what they show at a later date, it doesn't change that this episode felt like one big contrived excuse to kill off her character - even more contrived than the excuse to kill off Kat - and nothing more. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 03-05-2007 at 05:17 AM..

03-05-2007, 05:51 AM	#593 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	I was shocked last night, and I'm still shocked. I can't believe that they did that to a main character. I thought she was going to survive again.

03-05-2007, 10:59 AM	#595 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	Now I'm even more convinced she's a Cylon. __________________ it's quiet in here

03-05-2007, 01:43 PM	#597 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Being a BSG fan is all about having faith in the writers. Remember 'one year later'? Usually shows do that at the end of the series, but BSG did it when the ratings were strong and the show showed no signs of cancellation. From experience, we know the writers are allowed to really move in unorthodox directions. No matter what the outcome, I'd say this is one of those unorthodox directions. That being said, I'm really pissed that we don't get any new Starbuck until October 2007. It's be funny if Anders made a pass at Dee.....

03-05-2007, 02:44 PM	#598 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	That's the thing though: "One Year Later" IS a cliffhanger. It's easy to have faith when you're thrown a bone. The whole point of a cliffhanger is that you're given a strong hint of what's to come, but have to wait to find out how it plays out. Think of it this way: this past episode with Starbuck was the equivalent of watching the season 1 finale where Adama gets shot and at the end of the episode he's declared dead. As a viewer, you're left with nothing other than to assume that what you've been shown is accurate - Adama is dead. Sure, the writers may reverse that in the season 2 premiere - someone will suddenly discover Adama is still alive but barely - but since you weren't given any concrete indication that there was more to come in that storyline, you spent the previous months thinking Adama was dead and with that as the primary image in your mind. Better yet, an example from Star Trek. This past episode is the equivalent of watching an episode of Star Trek where a ship blows up with a major character in it, before they could be transported out, and then we see everyone sad that the major character is dead and they have a funeral for that person and everything. Next season, we suddenly discover that the person has been trapped in the transporter buffer and they manage to save that person. That's not a cliffhanger, that's just stupid. If it were a cliffhanger, the episode would have ended with some indication that the person is stuck in the transporter buffer and we'll be waiting anxiously for the next season to see how the crew gets them out of there. Cliffhangers do not trick you. They entice you. Killing Starbuck only to bring her back in some way at a later date is tricking the viewer, and not even in a good way, because as far as death stories go this past episode was pretty bad. The only excuse for spending an hour with completely transparent references that say "LOOK! STARBUCK'S GOING TO DIE! LOOK HERE! LOOK HERE!!" is if you're going to give the audience something to redeem the episode at the end: a cliffhanger. A cliffhanger, by definition, leaves a very obvious opening without answering what is on the other side. That's why I say an extra 10 seconds or so would have saved this episode. They don't even have to answer why she's still alive, just show that she is. For example, they could show a close shot of Starbuck's face waking up - we don't have to see whether it's on a resurrection ship or in another dimension or anything, just something to show us "there's more to come." Instead, we're left with an episode that wraps up neatly and doesn't give any indication (beyond "I refuse to believe this episode was THAT pointless") that there was more to Starbuck's death than accepting death. EDIT: And trust me, I don't enjoy saying this. BSG is easily my favorite show on television, but this past episode was just bad, and that's assuming they ARE going to do more with Starbuck. If they don't, then the episode was just plain terrible. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 03-05-2007 at 02:49 PM..

03-05-2007, 03:11 PM	#599 (permalink)
hagatha Addict	I agree her death at this point seems pointless, however if we are to believe she is destined to do something, I suspect that means she is more useful to Gallactica dead than alive. So does that mean returning as a useful "spirit" ? I suspect some sort of post- death incarnation of this character to appear in future episodes. __________________ Thats the last time I trust the strangest people I ever met....H. Simpson

03-05-2007, 07:20 PM	#600 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Maybe her death serves to focus other characters, Lee, Anders, etc. Listening to the podcast, and please listen to the podcast, it seems as if she may not return but in memories. It's a damn shame, but I see it as being reasonable if for no other reason but it's realistic. Sure, most shows would never dream of losing a real main character. Riker would never die on TNG, for example. The reality is that in real life people die, especially in a war situation and especially especially when they are in a war situation and suffering from mental illness and are warriors. It's escaping from the bs marketing-driven part of fictional writing. While I will sorely miss the Starbuck character, I understand and I'll move on. If she does come back, great. If not, it's okay.