KMA-628

I don't think we quite know who management is.

I would suggest watching Season One to get a sense of who he is, you would get more from watching the old episodes than us telling you what we think.

As of the last episode, we know management's name, his "other" name. family relations, etc., but we still don't quite know the role everyone is playing/going to play.

This seems to be one of those shows, heavy in character development, that you have to play bystander of. I haven't been able to follow along and predict how things were going to pan out, so I have become comfortable being the voyeur and learn things as the characters do.

That is one of the unique things about this show. In most cases, our education follows that of the characters. They don't know more than we do. They are learning more and more as the show goes on; as we do.

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guthmund

You sick, sick bastard!

A friend of mine (a real Sopranos freak) mentioned that they've started filming the next season to which I replied "and....??" I waited nearly two years for the last season, which sucked. So, I'm not particularly excited to see them come back. I'll watch. Hell, we will all watch. But I'm not going to get my knickers in a bunch because they're filming.

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guthmund

I am enthralled ever time Brother Justin comes on screen. Maybe it's the man-crush talking, but I can't get enough of his story. It seemed he was going to turn in his sister to his benefit, which is what all dirty, filthy bastards do , and he makes poor Tommy the bad guy. I honestly had no idea what was going to happen until it happened.

Question #1 - Spoiler: Do you remember last season when Justin and his father had the big blowout in the church? Justin told him he was a demon, his eyes turned all black and the blood cross popped up on his forehead.... Norman ran to the conclave to alert his fellow church brethren and ended up having a fairly serious stroke on the steps outside. So, he can't move all that much and he can't talk at all, which is kind of funny because he knows the truth about Justin, but didn't get a chance to tell anyone and now he can't tell a soul.

Question #2 - I don't remember a character named Lily, but I'm not all that great with names so, it's expected. Who are you talking about?

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guthmund

KMA summed it up pretty well. We don't know exactly who management is, but we can make some pretty good guesses.

In the first season, Ben kept having these dreams set in the trenches of World War I. Scudder and this Russian soldier seemed to be hunting each other. In one of the dreams (and I hope I get this right) the Russian is mauled by a bear. In another dream, Lodz, the blind man Ben killed at the end of the first season to save the snake lady, Ruthie, seemed to be the owner of that bear. The dreams are all symbolic, so I seriously doubt Lodz' bear really escaped some carnival and mauled the Russian in the middle of a firefight in World War I, but it's certainly something to remember. Later dreams showed the Russian soldier 'recovering' from his encounter. He lost one of his arms and both of his legs. This season we found out that Management was that Russian soldier whose name was Belyakov.

I don't want to get too far off the track, but the interesting thing about Ben's dreams was the fact that he always seemed to see things through Management's eyes and never through Scudder's. Which implies, at least to me, that even though Ben is Scudder's son, it is Management's role that Ben has to assume, which is why it was important that Ben was the one to kill Managment.

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omega2K4

Alright thanks, I picked up the Season 1 DVD set today, and will start watching it tomorrow.

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McG

I'm pretty sure management is the father of Justin. When samson went into the trailer there was a picture of Justin and his sister when they were young.

KMA-628

Pretty good episode tonight - I'm so hooked now, I would fast forward through the week if I could.

Ben has a new partner now.

As to the previous show: Do you think the disapearing fetus now resides in somebody's tummy?

Also, I heard mention of Ben and Sofie being brother and sister, any opinins on that? I haven't seen anything to make me believe so. The mother screaming before the "did it" aludes to something though.

Anyway, tonight was really good. So far, I have everything recorded and plan to watch it again afterwards.

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KMA-628

Actually, I meant Ruthie. However, I remember what happened now.

I'm trying to figure out how that part of the story is going to play out.

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guthmund

Well....I'm of two minds on this.

In a vision from the first season Sofie sees a tatooed man raping her mother. Scudder seems to be the man with the tatoo. So, Scudder seems to be the one that raped Appy and so, Ben and Sofie are at least half-brother/sister. This would explain why her horrified mother showed up while they were having sex.

However, what if the vision of Sofie's wasn't the past, but the future? What if what she was seeing wasn't her mother being raped by a tatooed man, but herself being raped by a tatooed man. Which means that Sofie and Brother Justin are going to get a lot closer. Now we all know what happened to the other maids Justin has had his way with, what do you think will happen to Sofie, who seems to be unaffected by Justin's power and might be pregnant?

I'm leaning towards the first one. With the fetus gone, it seems to imply Sofie is pregnant. Ben, who can heal and Sofie, who must have some of her mother's power, are half-siblings, which means their child is going to be one screwed up puppy with the enormous potential. This would explain why Appy was so horrified at the thought of Ben and Sofie having sex and sort of explain what Lodz meant when he called Sofie the "Omega."

Next week looks just as good. It seems that Samson is telling Libby not to tell anyone about what happened to Jonesy, but I think she's going to end up spilling the beans and it's probably going to be her mother's fault. The whole camp knowing what Ben can really do, would certainly make it a bit more interesting.

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KMA-628

I'm still dealing with:

Brother Justin = Mr. Krabbs (Spongebob) and the asshole correction officer from "Shawshank Redemption".

I was perusing a few other boards regarding Carnivale and saw this: The offspring of Ben and Sofie would be the anti-christ "ushered" into this world by you know who.

I don't think the vision of Sofie was from the future; it fits to well with the disapearing fetus, sofie's mom freakin' out, etc. However, I never got a good look at the rapist, so I didn't see the tattoos - plus, do we know if Scudder had tattoos?

/still trying to figure out the blue blood and the milk

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Hain

God I wish I had time to watch it! I think I will just buy the whole damned series now! Then I will know exactly what everyone here is talking about and then have some answers!

And I'm glad I brough to light the issue of the milk.

EDIT: a'Duh, the reason I even wanted to reply was to thank you guys for cluing me in.

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guthmund

I'm glad you did you too, but now it's driving me insane.

I was watching the last episode to see if the milk would pop up and, lo and behold, it did!

It seems that every little nuance or happenstance in the show means something. So, I find it hard to believe that the writers are having Justin drink milk just because.

I've been to several message boards about this show and not once did I see mention of the milk...so, good eye, Augi, good eye.

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KMA-628

guthmond -

the show seems to be revolving around the Book/Gospel of Matthias--an apocryphal book that was removed from the New Testament.

The book is lost and I can only find mention of it--no exact quotes or anything--but I am seeing a theme that the Matthias book was considered heretical by the "Church" and gnostic.

I've spent hours on the milk thing--nothing--usually google is my friend.

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guthmund

Absolutely. A remarkable number of books by the apostles are considered heretical in the broadest sense of the term. From what I've read over the years, nobody seems to have any idea exactly who Matthias was. I've read that he was appointed to be an apostle to replace Judas Iscariot by winning a "contest" proffered by the remaining 11 apostles.

The fact is there are several books that seem to have Matthias' hand in them, but no one seems to know if it was the same Matthias or several different men bearing the same name or writing it themselves and attributing it to him, which wasn't all that uncommon at the time.

Anyway enough with the history lessons, no? You're absolutely right. The Gospel/Book of Matthias hasn't been found, but there are some honorable mentions of him in the writings of others. I'm not sure of what you found, but here's what I've amassed so far.

Origen lumps the writings of Matthias and Thomas together in his Homily on Luke. Eusebius lumps the Gospels of Peter, Thomas and Matthias all together and calls them heretical.

While there is no way of knowing for sure, here are a couple of quotes supposedly from the teachings of Matthias. It isn't all that big a stretch to think that he would write something along the same lines as what he was teaching.

From Clement:
There's also a tie to the "Oxyrhynchus 840 Gospel" is tied to Matthias by some as well. The writing style, particular wording and it's location lead some to believe that it might have the hand of Matthias involved either directly or indirectly.

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guthmund

That was a little longer than I expected. So, I thought I'd put my thoughts towards the show seperate.

I wonder how much thought the writers put into this when they were coming up with the idea?

Samson talks about man giving up the "age of wonder for the age of reason" in the very first show. Remember Matthias "tells" us to "Wonder at what is present." There are a lot more of other instances, but that's the one that sticks out for me.

I wonder if they really put the work in finding out what the Gospel of Matthias was before they wrote it in the script or if they simply used the name because it had biblical ties and was no where to be found, which made it remarkably easy just to make things up that were supposedly in it.

I think it's the former as the attention to detail in this show is remarkable.

I absolutely love watching this show.

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McG

No comments on last night's show? ohhh it was a good one. I watched for the milk, but didn't see any.

KMA-628

I have it recorded on my DVR - haven't watched it yet

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guthmund

Nope, he drank lemonade. Maybe the milk doesn't mean anything at all.

Last night's show was excellent. It's about time Scudder stopped getting stepped on and unleashed the beast, so to speak.

I'm a bit confused. Is it two episodes left for the season or for the series?

If it's two episodes left for the series, I just don't see how they're going to wrap it all up that quickly.

I was just getting used to the idea of Sunday night Carnivale. By my count it will be 12 full episodes. That's a bit hard to believe as they seem to have flown by. Oh, well.

Lodz hinting about coming back "in the flesh" was certainly the most tantalizing tidbit of information from last night and the bit about the Iris & Balthus conspiracy certainly changes my opinion of Iris. Not much, mind you, but a change nonetheless.

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McG

Yes i'm completly confused by Iris. Not sure if she is good or bad. 2 more doesn't seem like enough, so I really hope there is another season coming.

KMA-628

I am hearing that there is a Season 3, but no word on anything beyond that.

According to HBO's website - Season 2: The final battle between Good and Evil is looming, and Ben Hawkins and Brother Justin are on a collision course that could determine the fate of the world.

Who knows.

Am I being slow, but was this the first episode where Justin wore the black preacher outfit but not the white collar?

Like you guys, Iris is confusing the hell out of me. They are now twisting her character as if she is on the side of good , but in the past, she has been clearly evil....hell she killed twice before Justin had his chance (pretty cool trick there at the end by Justin--I guess it keeps the sides fairly even)

I'm just not ready to believe she will turn out to be on the good side.

Edit: I don't think the final battle will happen this season. They are gonna draw it our for as long as they can, but they got lucky this season as I was closed to getting tired of it--hopefully they can keep us intrigued.

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KMA-628

Well, we know now. I have to admit that I didn't see that one coming.......and neither did Iris.

Good call, you were right on.

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guthmund

I didn't even notice that....odd.

She beat that poor old lady with an oar....I guess that would automatically disqualify her, eh?

Doesn't it seem like Justin is working harder to get to Sofie? The first couple of girls didn't balk twice when Justin's eyes glazed over and he made his move, but Sofie seems different. Well, he seems more interested in charming her (telling her what a good job she's doing; inviting her to sit down to dinner) than simply having his way with her. I wonder why that is?

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McG

Maybe he knows that Sofie is his daughter?

omega2K4

Alright the season finale just ended, and here's my thoughts: Spoiler: was any one else not surprised that Sophie (Sofie?) "turned" evil? She was having visions of her mother being raped, then she saw a woman in a dark dress with a veil over her face (who she thought was her mother), so Sophie backed up against the wall, the woman uncovered her face and it was Sophie, but with the black eyes that Brother Justin has when he's really pissed, and the "evil" Sophie said something along of the lines of "This is your house" (I don't remember exactly). I kinda thought she would be (or eventually turn) evil when it showed her mother being raped by Brother Justin in past episodes. I thought it was cool how Brother Justin was killed with the blade of the knife having to go through a certain part of Brother Justin's "Tree" tattoo. I thought the ending was kind of corny (no pun intended) when the evil Sophie put her hands on the corpse of Brother Justin (and I presume resurrected him, or maybe absorbed his powers.), then it cut to the Carnivale driving off and the corn in the background wilting and dying. I wonder if Sophie is the "main" evil villain in the next season or will we see the return of Brother Justin as the head evil guy, or just Sophie as his minion? As for Iris (Justin's Sister) I don't know what to think of her, I still don't know if she's good or evil, she seemed happy that the Carnivale drove off from the revival place, but I'm not sure.

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"While the State exists there can be no freedom. When there is freedom there will be no State." - Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

"Reason has always existed, but not always in a reasonable form."- Karl Marx

McG

My thoughts on this is when Brother Justin died he lost his powers and they were transfered to sophie. She did bring him back, but i'm not sure if he has any of the powers still. I'm just hoping for a 3rd season.

KMA-628

Isn't the power transfer accompanied by the death of one of the individuals (i.e. management and scudder)?

BTW - There is a 3rd season, so no worries there.

I have to admit, without getting into too much, I didn't see the ending coming.

I was thoroughly confused with the whole "prophet" and "house" thing and didn't see how it was leading. It will make for a very interesting 3rd season (supposedly the last season).

Oh well, back to "Deadwood" (which was much better last season) and I will await the new series "Rome".

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bparker805

KMA,
Just wondering if you have anything solid on a 3rd Season?

KMA-628

Sorry, didn't see your question until now.

I read it on the HBO website/fansite--it was somewhere in the forums.

However, I am also hearing that is up in the air, so now I am not so sure.

It could be just HBO playing games to gauge the popularity of Carnivale, who knows.

I, for one, would be very disappointed if there isn't a season 3--the only reason I pay for HBO is the original series. Right now, I am content with Deadwood. I will give Rome a chance and will only watch Sopranos because I have been following it this long, might as well see it to its bloody death.

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bparker805

I have to agree with the disappointment about the possibility of there being no season 3. I read on sci fi's website that daniel knauf was working on a show for showtime right now. so who the hell knows...

McG

Showtime? He is going to kill me with all these premium channels i'll have to buy just to watch his stuff. There had better be a 3rd season or i'll revolt. I originally got the hbo channels for the sopranos, but I found that like like Carnivale and Deadwood better.

Mr. Spacemonkey

Well, bad news. No third season for Carnivale. This really sucks.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/TV/0...arnivale.reut/

On this site, they have email addresses you can send comments to: No third season for Carnivale

There is even a petition going: Bring back Carnivale petition

I know, online petitions are worthless, but for those that care ...

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Hain

But the milk was never explained! Damnit!

I really need to get the boxes of Carnivale because that show is fucked up enough for me to lose 6 hours of just watching it. Hooray for summer!

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