Baraka_Guru

From an interesting article here: Harry Potter influences and analogues - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The link gives you more information and comparisons with some details. It's quite fascinating actually.

Below is a list, for your convenience:

Harry Potter

Influences

• British folklore and mythology
• The Iliad, Homer
• The Bible
• "The Pardoner's Tale," Canterbury Tales, Geoffrey Chaucer
• Macbeth, William Shakespeare
• Emma, Jane Austen
• The Story of the Treasure Seekers, E. Nesbit
• The Wind in the Willows, Kenneth Grahame
• Dorothy L. Sayers
• The Chronicles of Narnia, C. S. Lewis
• The Little White Horse, Elizabeth Goudge
• The Sword in the Stone, T. H. White
• Manxmouse, Paul Gallico
• Jessica Mitford

Analogues

• The Pilgrim's Progress, John Bunyan
• Wuthering Heights, Emily Brontë
• Tom Brown's Schooldays, Thomas Hughes
• The Lord of the Rings, J. R. R. Tolkien
• Roald Dahl
• X-Men
• The Chronicles of Prydain series, Lloyd Alexander
• The Dark Is Rising sequence, Susan Cooper
• A Wizard of Earthsea, Ursula Le Guin
• The Worst Witch series, Jill Murphy
• Charmed Life, Diana Wynne Jones
• Discworld series, Terry Pratchett
• Ender's Game, Orson Scott Card
• Young Sherlock Holmes (film)
• Troll (film)
• The Books of Magic comic series, Neil Gaiman
• Spellcasting series (text adventure)
• Wizard's Hall, Jane Yolen
• The Secret of Platform 13, Eva Ibbotson

Of course, this raises questions of sources and originality. Rowling, as history's first billionaire author, is notorious for being obtuse, vague, or evasive about her authorship with regard to originality. There are a number of ways to look at it.

For example, you have Orson Scott Card, who says, "I thought we were both just stealing from T.H. White; very straightforward." On the other hand, you have Ursula Le Guin, who says, "[that Rowling] could have been more gracious about her predecessors. My incredulity was at the critics who found the first book wonderfully original. She has many virtues, but originality isn't one of them. That hurt."

I haven't read the Harry Potter series yet, but I imagine I will one day. I have seen the movies up to the most recent one (second last one). Even in those, I can spot the influence of such things at Joseph Campbell's monomyth. Several elements were certainly parallel to such popular works as The Lord of the Rings and The Chronicles of Narnia. Not necessarily in content, but certainly in form.

The above article is great for outlining these things and drawing comparisons. What do you think of this? What do you think about Rowling's addressing of sources, influences, and parallels?

Those of you who loved Harry Potter, would you consider exploring the above works as well?

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Cynthetiq

I've explored many of those listed. It's why I did enjoy the Harry Potter reads and movies. I now have to go back as an adult and re-read them to see just how they affect me now and how I understand and view them now as an adult.

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Fremen

As a guy who loves to read just about every genre, and someone who has read Rowling's books, I don't think any author, and her in particular, are duty bound to show a list of their influences.

Frankly, I couldn't care less where the author learned to create tension between characters, or introduce a new species to the story readers, I just want an entertaining read. She produces.

I've read some of the mudslinging directed at her before, and most, if not all, is jealousy and sour grapes.

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Jove

Yes, as long as the books listed in your post are an interesting read. I seem to have difficulty reading classic literature, but if it captures my attention then I will read it. I read 3 of the books listed, The Lord of The Rings, The Illiad and The Chronicles of Narnia.

Baraka_Guru

I totally get this. They aren't duty bound to show anything, but you're going to get people drawing comparisons/parallels regardless. Because they're there. And sometimes they're obvious. Most dedicated readers and professional writers know that literature isn't created in a vacuum. I think the issue is that there is some indication that Rowling is resistant to this idea. There is a difference between "Yeah, I can't say I borrowed from that" and "I don't know what you're talking about; that was my idea." I don't know if I've seen any of the mudslinging, but there are people with legitimate concerns over her handling of these things. It's pretty lame to cover your tracks just to make it look like you're some kind of genius. I don't know anyone who'd be jealous of that, but I know many who'd be infuriated by it. It's frustrating.

Oh, and I suppose it would be relevant to quote my current signature:

In our day, the conventional element in literature is elaborately disguised by a law of copyright
pretending that every work of art is an invention distinctive enough to be patented.
—From "Mythical Phase: Symbol As Archetype," Anatomy of Criticism (1957), Northrop Frye

If you check out the synopses of the titles on the list, you will find that many of them are fairy recent works of children's literature in the same vein as Potter.

---------- Post added at 08:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:35 AM ----------

This is always such an interesting experience.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

jewels

Why would a list of influences raise questions as to source and originality?

Unless there's plagiarism involved, the idea alone is totally ludicrous.

That would be akin to saying that Salinger stole from Hemingway. Or Robert Frost stole from Walt Whitman. Much of literature is based on themes found in the bible.

We're influenced by what we like and what we read. Our style is going to reflect that.

Why you being such a meanie, BG?

Knowing what influenced any artist is fascinating. But it doesn't necessarily mean I'll enjoy everything they do.

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Baraka_Guru

Oh, it's not that. To me, the issue is Rowling's position. I won't go as far as to say she's being intellectually dishonest. It does seem to me, however, that she's disingenuous about certain aspects of it.

I'm not the meanie, she is. I mean, c'mon, she hurt Ursula Le Guin's feelings.

Seriously. Even Shakespeare's works have their sources. It's not necessarily about being original in ideas/structures/themes; it's about being original in presentation. Although I haven't read them yet, Rowling's works are great in that they have infused a new passion for reading in both children and adults—and at a time of instant electronic flashy entertainment. Furthermore, she's lit up the fantasy genre unlike anything seen since Tolkien.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

jewels

Golly gee, BG. Even when I try, I can't stay mad at you.

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We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Baraka_Guru

Does that mean I get a hug?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

jewels

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Vaultboy

As a scientist used to having to do meticulous citations, i also found Rowling's position to be absurd - no one would take anything away from her if she stated where she got ideas or inspiration from. One of the reasons I like authors like Dan Simmons and Stephen King is that have time and time again explained their writing process, and cite inspiration (in their books, and in interviews, etc). Regardless of what the HP series has done to reinvigorate readership, her lack of acknowledgment to her peers and predecessors doesn't sit well with me. Ultimately I regard her as a Spice Girl - someone with enough talent who saw a gap in the market, and profited immensely from it - and nothing more.

I should say though, that I sympathise with Le Guin. Whilst reading the first HP novel, I recognised the links with A Wizard of Earthsea immediately (as well as the more one-dimensional comparisons with LoTR and Ender's Game). Given though, that Earthsea is my favourite childhood novel, and one I re-read about 5 times as years went by, I felt that HP was not as complex as Sparrowhawk, and that actions (like summoning the dead) had far less consequences, and that world was less rich and less thought-provoking. Only with Prisoner of Azkaban did JKR start to impress me.

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Frosstbyte

I think Rowling's attitude in this regard is immensely telling of how extensively she borrowed from existing fantasy literature. Rowling's "ingenuity" has been one of her most heralded virtues since the release of the series, largely built on the shoulders of critics who no doubt cared little for fantasy literature prior to Harry Potter and have cared little for it since other than to critique those series which are direct offshoots of the Potter movement (Percy Jackson, et. al.).

The section of what Card says that you don't quote is far more telling than what you do:
Harry Potter, for whatever else it may be (and it is a lot of things), is exceedingly derivative of a rich tapestry of bildungsroman genre literature. I don't mean to suggest she didn't make any of it up since her world is her own, but she's received a lot of credit for creating what she built only the very topmost part on the backs of the work of hundreds or thousands of other authors. Add that to her insistence on a few occasions that Harry Potter isn't fantasy literature (for reasons I can't imagine) and I can imagine why other fantasy authors wouldn't could her amongst their greatest fans.

But, and this is perhaps more apropos of this thread, if reading Harry Potter gets people started reading other, better fantasy literature, then I'm all for it. There's a lot out there.

Strange Famous

hmm.. I came here to give a real answer!

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Lucifer

I loved The Chronicles of Prydain series by Lloyd Alexander when I was a boy. I want to go back and read them again as an adult to see if they still stir the same feelings in me.

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Strange Famous

I got a copy of the "Earthsea" books on the back of this, have read the first two books

I liked them, but really cant see any link to Harry Potter other than the "school for wizards" stuff. In the first half of the Harry Potter series its basically just a English Boading School story which happens to include magic. I gets series at Book 4 maybe. The magic in Earthsea was far better thought out metaphysically

And other than one obvious connection Spoiler: Harry must live and die and live again to defeat Voldemort and Sparrowhawk must face his own death to live... the leading characters and not really similar characters.

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
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hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

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Zeraph

SF- well influences are quite broad, for instance it could have been pacing from that particular series that influenced her. I write, and I've been influenced by Stephen Brust. But my novels aren't much like his...the influence was from 1. He sold me on 3rd person 2. his personal advice.

Another instance is influence from LoTR. It was the epicness and the ability of a normal (non super power like gandalf) to change the fate of an epic series that influences me. Not orcs or elves or anything specifically.

I liked hairy potter, liked not loved. She's a good writer, but original, no. If anything her whole series is almost an old fantasy trope simply put in modern time. That is, the trope; of a boy who's marked for destiny, must learn/earn super powers, and then take down the dark lord in the end. Its actually almost cliche. She got by because it was set in modern times and she didn't use the old magic sword trope as well. So most people didn't notice.

My greatest influence is the scifi author Robert Heinlein. He was pretty much all scifi. But I haven't written any scifi yet. His influence was the philosophy he worked into his books.

Strange Famous

To be fair thats a pretty universal storyline, not only limited to most fantasy books.

I read about about it:

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Zeraph

Yes...but mostly fantasy. In fact show me a book that isn't fantasy that follows that trope, and I bet it'll actually be fantasy.

genuinegirly

There's no way you're going to get a 10-year-old kid to willingly sit down and read The Iliad. Sorry, it's just not happening.

JK Rawlings managed to find a way to sell an entire generation of fast-talking, videogame-playing, impatient, ADD kids on her novels. She instilled a love of reading that transformed them, and opened their minds to reading. She opened the door for these children to delve into other novels, and often more classic works. The love that they developed through her novels carried on throughout their early adult lives.

I'll never forget the morning that the last novel was released. Everyone waited up all night at the bookstore around the corner, there was a stillness that was eerie and never repeated in our co-op. Everyone, all day, was locked away reading that book. It was an incredible calm, and our house wasn't unique - the entire town of Berkeley seemed to share the hushed library-like atmosphere.

I did not get into the Harry Potter craze. I was in high school when the first novel came out, and I wasn't interested in starting a new series of fantasy novels. I've read the first one more recently, and have attempted on many occasions to check out the second novel from the library. It hasn't ever happened because there's always an insane waiting list. I'll eventually read all of them I'm sure, but there are better novels available with less demand.

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Strange Famous

I got the least Harry Potter book at midnight and read it straight off.

I think its a great series insofar as its accessible, likeable main characters, a strong storyline... but I have to admit I find Sparrowkawk (especially in the first book) to be a lot more engaging and interesting character.

And throughout the whole Harry Potter series, you are always about an inch away from admitting to yourself that the magic, the metaphysics of it, just makes no sense.

On the other hand, I was really taken with the idea in the Earthsea series that true magic was based on knowing true names.

_

As John Constantine said... "the thing about magic is.. any cunt can do it"

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Vaultboy

Hmm, off the top of my head:

1. The super-wizard whole orphan boy goes to boarding school is the obvious bit.
2. Both summon the dead against better knowledge.
3. Both are touched by evil.
4. Both have a standoff with a schoolboy rival of 'higher pedigree'.
5. Both have birds for totems.

and then of course both have to confront their death in order to defeat the evil that has touched them.

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