Baraka_Guru

Tilted Speculative Fiction Book Club presents: Isaac Asimov's Prelude to Foundation

**Spoiler alert**
This is a book discussion thread for the Tilted Speculative Fiction Book Club. Discussions here are open and free, as it is assumed that those participating in the thread have read the material already. The use of spoiler tags would be cumbersome, and so they will not be used.

For more information, visit: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...book-club.html

Prelude to Foundation, Isaac Asimov

First, let's answer some generic questions about the book, so that we can build a foundation (foundation, get it?) for following discussions on the scientific, technological, social, and speculative aspects of the book.

1. How did you experience the book? Beyond whether you simply liked it or not, what were your initial reactions to it?
2. Are the characters convincing? Did you like all the characters? Did they grow? What about their motivations? Their actions?
3. What is the central conflict? What are the major themes running throughout?
4. Is the plot believable? Did it maintain integrity throughout?
5. Is the ending satisfying? Was it predictable? How well does it set up the rest of the series? Are you hooked?

Remember, there aren't any right or wrong answers at this point. These are your opinions. Feel free to hash out your impressions of the book.

I will make my own contributions after I've thought about these questions a bit.

Most important, have fun!

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

GreyWolf

As a LOOONNNGGG time Asimov fan (since the 60's), and having read the story last at least 20 years ago, I'm going a lot from memory.

By this stage in the Foundation/Robots saga, Asimov was becoming much more complex in terms of characters and plot development, reflecting a more sophisticated reading audience. The behaviours, dialogue, and interaction in Prelude reflect the general maturation(?) of the science fiction genre. Gone were the wooden, stereotypical caricatures of the 50's and 60's; replaced by much more believable characters (if not the situations).

I can't really respond in detail to all the questions since it's been so long since I read it, but I would like to say that the reappearance of R. Daneel in Foundation and Earth was an incredible twist for those of us who had read the Robots trilogy. It was one of the most surprising and welcome twists in all of my reading. Unexpected, almost logical, and a perfect way for Asimov tie 2 series together.

For those who had read his Opus 100 discussion of the problems inherent in continuing the Foundation series, all of the later books were welcome additions, even if they were so completely different in style than the original books. The best comparison I can offer on the difference in styles is the innocent simplicity of The Hobbit versus the detailed, captivating complexity of The Lord of The Rings.

__________________
The secret to great marksmanship is deciding what the target was AFTER you've shot.

levite

This is a truly excellent analogy. Well said. I could not agree more.

I am not going to comment further in detail, because I was not a huge fan of Prelude, but I also wholeheartedly agree with GW's comment vis-a-vis Foundation and Earth, and the welcome surprise of Daneel's reappearance.

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Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Baraka_Guru

Okay, so here are my initial reactions to the book.

So I liked the book. However, take that with a grain of salt, as I haven't read much science fiction. At first I wasn't particularly interested, but as the story progressed, I got more into it. I can see the "prelude" factor. It appears to me that Asmiov did much to start setting up the Foundation books in this title. It did much to introduce the universe, technology, and social implications of the Galactic Empire. I think much of the information here will be useful for future books.

I generally liked the character of Seldon. He's not made out to be a superhero or otherwise unrealistic. He's naive and uncertain of himself. As the book progresses he gains some confidence in himself, and this is helped along with some of the other characters. I found that he did act a bit out of character at times, showing more bravery than I would expect, but it didn't break my engagement with the book.

Dors at first was compelling, but I became progressively frustrated with her as a character. She seems more like a plot device than a character. Suddenly she's an expert knife fighter and is tough as nails, following Seldon everywhere with the intention of protecting him at all costs. Her motivations are completely out of whack, and she always seems to know how to handle a situation. At the end, Seldon suspects that she's a robot. She better be, or I'll be damned. I hope, at least, she's just using the university professor facade as some kind of front for something else.

I won't discuss Chetter Hummin at this point, because I'd like to reserve that for more detailed discussions later.

The main drive behind the book revolves around the concept of psychohistory, which is generally a theory of mathematics that can predict future events. Whether it's possible or not seems to be beside the point: people want to use it for their own ends. It's viewed as something that will change the balance of power within the Empire. More on this at a later time.

The general themes I found throughout the book revolve around social decay/fragmentation, technological & scientific stagnation, power & decadence, and what I'll call "deep multiplicity." This latter concept I like. It refers to the idea that there are 25 million populated planets with their own distinct cultures and societies, and the seemingly infinite interactions and influences amongst them. This ties into psychohistory and whether it is capable of working upon that kind of magnitude.

The plot generally was believable. I didn't have my suspension of disbelief challenged that much. The only problems I had were with some of the actions of characters on a smaller scale. Sometimes it seemed a bit too deus ex machina for my tastes. More on this at a later time, I'm sure.

The end was satisfactory, and I didn't predict it. However, I'm a passive reader while doing the act and so I rarely if ever try to figure out a book. I let the story be told and I consume it. Anything beyond that will come out hindsight, such as in this thread. I'm sure Asmiov intentionally left the hook as it is to get us to continue reading, especially considering he wrote this book after the others that "follow." The revelation of Hummin's (ahem, Daneel's) true identity (and alternate identity) was nicely executed and served to explain a lot about what was happening. However, it leaves me intrigued. Who, now, are the real enemies? And what will become of psychohistory? This is what has me looking forward to the next book. So, yeah, I'm hooked.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

GreyWolf

Your comments on the themes running through the book (and indeed the entire Foundation series) are right on. If you weren't aware of the history of the series, it began on the subway in New York. Asimov was on his way to a luncheon meeting with one of his editors (as he put it, as they moved from publisher to publisher, they just took him along, while a new one at the old publishing house would pick him up, giving him a collection of editors). He had no idea for a new book, just wanted a free lunch, and was desperately trying to come up with something. Someone was reading Gibbon's Decline of the Roman Empire, and Asimov (who knew the book well of course) took that to the science fiction extreme of the fall of a galactic empire.

So what you are seeing are indeed what Asimov intended.

BTW... Asimov wrote Prelude because he had run out of ideas on where to take the series, so this gave him an opportunity to fill in some gaps, but bound him to things he had already written. It was somewhat of a cop-out on his part. However, with the re-appearance of R. Daneel in Foundation and Earth, he had almost written himself into a corner, so it's understandable.

As for more books... I don't think I've ever read an author with the sheer simplicity of style of Asimov, yet with the ability to seamlessly weave complex concepts into his works. I don't think any future books will live up to the originals.

__________________
The secret to great marksmanship is deciding what the target was AFTER you've shot.

snowy

Finished it last night. Once I started reading it, I found it hard to stop. Asimov definitely created a universe in this book that I am very interested in, and I am looking forward to reading the next.

I'll probably have to give it some time to sink in and come back, but there are some initial things I'd like to comment on.

The characters are believable--to an extent. I liked the character of Dors a lot, actually. I thought she would turn out to have some badass capabilities from the start, after she seemed so adamant about how she had to protect Hari. But WHY does a woman have to be a robot to be so badass? Seldon struck me as a self-doubting Everyman at first, who obviously changed as time when on, but after reading the end of the book, I now know why those changes happened.

I also thought the high amount of sexual tension was utterly unbelievable at times. This actually drove me nuts.

And yes, BG, I too just like to read a story (unless it's an M.C. Beaton mystery). Good stories, like this one, catch you off-guard with their revelations, hopefully. To me, bad stories are the ones I can figure out before the ending. Did I have any inkling whatsoever that Hummin/Demarzel were the same person? No. Did I think they were a robot? The thought passed fleetingly through my head, that this robot must still be around, and must be in a position of power, but it didn't occur to me just how much power.

I'll be back with more to say

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Baraka_Guru

snowy, I'll await your return before responding, with this exception:
I agree with you on this one. However, it was sometimes tolerable because I sympathized with Seldon's awkward/cheesy, clumsy, and sometimes desperate attempts at gauging Dors's sexual interest. I don't have much experience with women, but I imagine his general tactics would be like my own.

What made it unbearable was how Dors responded to it. I would have liked more resistance/criticism from her. I can't imagine Seldon's clumsiness is generally appealing.

I don't really get Dors, though, which is why I think/hope she is a robot.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Daniel_

I re-read this book about a month ago - just before the first thread went up - and have read it several times before. There are some loose ends, and there are a number of things that fall to pieces on close examination, but these are largely dealt with very well in the "Second Foundation Trilogy" (an authorised posthumous continuation of the saga written by Benford, Bear and Brin).

Overall, it's clear how far apart the writing of this was in time from the other books, and how (in common with Heinlein) the subject of sex and sexuality arrives which it never had before.

I find it interesting how much the universe of foundation is incredibly sexist - much more so in the original books, naturally, but still in this one to a large level.

I like the story though, even if the use of Demerzel to tie everything back to "the stars like dust" and "robots and empire" is a little heavy handed.

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Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
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