Xerxys

**Sheilds self** I think firefly was allright. I only just watched it. Dunno what all the hype is about it. Maybe it could have lasted 2 more 21 episode seasons but that's about all I could handle out of firefly. I just finished Dollhouse Season 2 and I think one more 13 episode season is asking for too much. Angel, I have never watched an entire season in linear fashion and I think I would die if I did. Same for Buffy. Can't stand that universe

I sorta feel his writing CAN get somewhere because his concepts are universal. Mind control, aliens, no aliens, aliens using mind control, sex, Sexy aliens using mind control to take over the world.

Whedon can stand to learn from the producers of Prison Break or Alias.

So, why do y'all hate him and why do you think he sucks? For me? His shows are not "ZOMG my mind is BLOOOOWWWWWN!! Take me now for all to see!!" But I think they're OK and he gets less credit than he deserves.

Reese

Prison Break could have used Joss Whedon's dialog and casting. I agree

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Xerxys

Actually thats the opposite of what I meant.

spindles

I'm a Whedon fan, mostly based on firefly. I've watched a few episodes of Dollhouse and really didn't think much of it. My annoyance with firefly getting cancelled is that there are heaps worse shows in my opinion that somehow manage to survive being culled when something as good as firefly was cut.

I'm wondering whether that means the TV audience as a whole don't want witty dialog and character interactions, but just one more CSI/Law and Order clone/franchise. Perhaps firefly was doomed as soon as it was thought out because it was "sci-fi" (I put that in quotes because it was really a western - it just happened to be set in space.)

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Charlatan

I can't say that I hate Whedon. In my opinion, Buffy and Angel were examples of excellent writing, casting and story development. That said, I wouldn't expect someone to deliver a series like either one of those today. They are both a product of their time.

I've only caught a few episodes of Firefly and no episodes of Dollhouse so I can't really discuss them.

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Cynthetiq

One has to pay attention specifically to the episodes that he writes versus the other writes on the shows. The one's he's written specifically are amazing. There are some seasons, that were just horrible. Angel S4 comes to mind. I think BTVS S5 was bad as well, (I think it's 5, not sure, it's after she died and came back and Dawn came into the picture.) I didn't like Firefly because I didn't care for the characters

If you think that it's just the dialog, then you look to BTVS episode Hush. If you think it's just drama, look at BTVS musical episode Once More With Feeling.

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Baraka_Guru

I think the value of Firefly lies in its categorization and technical aspects. For starters, you don't see many space westerns. Second, you don't see many sci-fi film and television productions that actively go against most of the typical trappings as space operas as much as Firefly did.

From the characterization (flawed, relatively unheroic...generally realistic), to the universe (no aliens; Newtonian physics; interesting use of language, both in Chinese and specific English "slang" terms; technology isn't ultra high tech), to the filming techniques (unsteady, "zoomy" shots of the main characters' ship vs. sweeping, steady wide-angle vistas of the Alliance ships).... there's more than what I listed here. But what kept me tuned in and rewatching them was this nice departure from what I'd normally see or expect from sci-fi.

I also found it genuinely funny without it coming across as unserious (i.e. a comedy).

I'd like to see more of this kind of thing. Anyone who knows of anything else in this vein generally speaking, please let me know!

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Vaultboy

I think all American writers and producers can learn from J Michael Straczynski (sp?) - They should complete a story arc from beginning to end, and shoot it that way. too many shows are "This is a cool concept. It theoretically gives us 100 episodes, lots of room for plot twists, and we can make things up as we go along (read: LOST)" Prison Break is a shining example of a story that should have used a 2-season story arc max.

Its just a pity that the American series model is built on Ratings instead of telling a good story, because there are SO MANY great concepts that get dreamt up, and fall away because of poor initial ratings, and so many shows that gets sustained well beyond its shelf life just because it still gets ratings. Whedon and JJ Abrams would be excellent if they learnt the art of a great ending. Now, they're just ok in my book - they make competent sci-fi and fantasy soapies.

Edit: Add Tim Kring and whoeverthehell makes stargate and all its spinoffs to this list.

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Charlatan

I would suggest that Whedon *does* understand good story telling and *does* create endings. One of the things that was great about Buffy was his ability to construct not only great episodes but also a story archs that span several episodes or a whole season. Each season could, in theory work towards the end of the series, or just the season.

The issue you have has more to do with the business side of television in the US. You can be sure that it was ABC that wanted Lost to last as long as it has.

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Frosstbyte

I own the complete sets of Buffy and Angel and I own Serenity. I've watched every episode of Dollhouse and Firefly.

I'm not sure I get the hero worship of Whedon, but for my tastes, the man makes great television. I can happily watch and rewatch his shows. Dollhouse has had some very odd, inconsistent streaks, but the last third of the first season, and the last half of the second season (ESPECIALLY the last half of the second season), have made for stunningly good watching. Though I didn't mind when it was announced that Dollhouse would be cancelled, I'm now very sad to see it go.

I'm not totally sure why you came out guns-ablazing, xerx, but I wholly disagree with pretty much everything you've said.

Reese

Whedon makes good TV. It may not have mass appeal, but it has a dedicated fan base because like JJ Abbrams and Kevin Smith he's VERY in touch with his fans. This is why he's worshiped.

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mrklixx

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kutulu

/Disclaimer, I've watched all of Buffy and Angel from start to finish at least 4 times.

Joss's only problem to me is that you need to be invested in the series to really get what is going on. The general public likes shows that are mindless and for the most part allow people to miss several episodes at a time and have it not affect the viewer's understanding.

I didn't care too much for Dollhouse. Firefly was amazing, it was a travesty that it got the axe so quickly.

guy44

I feel like the OP was designed in a laboratory by a team of scientists to induce the largest flame war in history.

Also, Prison Break and Alias sucked. Joss Whedon can do no wrong. (I'm kidding, kind of. Not every episode on his shows was great.)

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CinnamonGirl

Oh, xerx...

For the record, I've never gotten in to Prison Break or Alias. Or CSI. Or Law & Order. I absolutely loved Buffy. And Angel. And Firefly. And Dr. Horrible. (yes, I own all of those. And Serenity, which I also loved.) Didn't really get into Dollhouse, though.

I had an English prof cool enough to let me write one of my papers on Buffy a couple years back...I'll have to see if I can dig it up.

So... I love the dialogue in his shows. I love the way he breaks my heart (although, yeah, I kind of hate it, too.) I love how a completely offhand or under-the-breath remark can make me laugh again days (or years) later. I love how the story arcs intertwine and take a whole season to really be resolved.

I could go on, but I'm not going to. Basically, for whatever reasons, Whedon's shows strike a chord in me that very few other shows can. I realize that's not the case for everyone, and that's cool. But gorram it, I want Firefly back.

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Baraka_Guru

You know....as much as I love Firefly and Serenity...I can't seem to bring myself to watch Buffy. Is it really that good?

A part of me resists because I still view Kristy Swanson as the "real" Buffy.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

flat5

I'm in tune with the comments of Frosstbyte, kutulu, and CinnamonGirl.

I have all of Buffy, Angel, FireFly, Dollhouse.
Buffy I've watched at least five times complete and still sometimes watch an episode or two or one of the extra features.
The show has so much class.

Other series I have collected because I think they are worth having include:
Boston Legal, Mad Men, House, Bones, Lost. Boston Legal I may end up watching a few times.
House & Bones sometimes have a very good episode. So much for my taste.

Cynthetiq

BG, yes it is that good. Season 1 & 2 is a little slow and repetitive, but it does a decent job of getting the characters setup. If I remember correctly it gets really good around seasons 3-6.

It is nothing like the movie. Do not compare it to the movie at all. You can see some of the soul in the movie AFTER you've watched the series.

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Reese

The buffy series is definitely better than the movie. The only thing I didn't like about Buffy when I first started watching is that 1: It's dated. 1997 is a LONG time ago. And 2: It's been copied so many times since then that I already felt I'd seen it before. It took me a long time to get through those episodes but by late season 2 I was hooked and watching multiple episodes every day.

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Hektore

Thought you Joss fans would appreciate this:

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guy44

Yeah, I saw that. It's freakin' hilarious. JOSS WHEDON. DOESN'T SUCK. Heh. Amen.

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levite

Sorry y'all. I love Whedon and everything he's done, especially Buffy and Angel. LOVED THEM! Own them all. Still watch them.

I unashamedly worship at his altar. I love his dialogue, his casting choices, his writing, his direction, his sense of humor, and his ideas. Don't care who disagrees with me.

Just heard he's in talks to direct the Avengers movie. OMG, if only!!!

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FuglyStick

I didn't care for Buffy or Angel. I liked Firefly, and Serenity was a good movie.

Dr. Horrible was fresh and unique. It would have gotten real tiresome real quick if it had been any longer though.

I never gave Dollhouse a chance, but it had nothing to do with Whedon, and everything to do with the horrible acting of Dushku.

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CinnamonGirl

Oh, man. That's a GREAT video. Also: best name for a website EVER. How much would I love to actually see Serenity: Origins? (answer: omg, so so so much.)


Oh! Joss (who doesn't suck!) is directing next week's episode of Glee!

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Fremen

I wasn't into Dollhouse, but I enjoyed Buffy, Angel and especially Firefly.

Long live Jayne!!

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Gina_

I think I saw every episode of BTVS and 3 seasons of Angel and enjoyed them very much. As others have mentioned, not every episode was stellar, but there were some that were amazing and I appreciated his willingness to push the envelope in the method he used to tell the story (as noted by Cyntetiq).

Whedon also had an eye for spotting talent. Both series used actors above the usual ability found in other long running shows. At different times he shoved their characters way out our comfort zones and the actors pulled it off.


I haven't seen Firefly, Serenity or Dollhouse.

I agree, those episodes speak to Whedon's creativity. He was definitely not a one-trick-pony.



Which is why I liked Buffy and Angel. Like a book, you couldn't skip a chapter or you could be lost. You can't say that about other series shows. That's good story telling.