Is Banning Books Ever Justified? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Double D · 07-02-2003, 08:36 AM

School Bans Potter's Magic

Wed July 2, 2003 08:13 AM ET
SYDNEY (Reuters) - An Australian Christian school has banned the new best-selling adventure of teenage wizard Harry Potter, saying the book promotes evil witchcraft and magic.
Bert Langerak, principal of the Maranatha Christian School in the southern city of Melbourne, said Wednesday none of the five books in author J. K. Rowling's blockbuster Harry Potter series was welcome on the school's library shelves.

"We would deal with, say, Macbeth and Hamlet, because evil there is being portrayed as evil and not as being good, whereas Harry Potter is on a quest to become the best possible wizard and that's being applauded by the author," Langerak told Reuters.

"And us poor muggles are being put in a bad light," he added, using the name by which the book refers to non-magical people.

The latest book in the series -- Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix -- became an instant best seller around the world when it was launched last month.

Langerak said the school was leaving it up to parents to decide if they wanted to expose their children to Harry Potter and his unchristian magic turbo-charged brooms.

"If they want their kids to read Harry Potter, so be it. But I think that parents also have to be given the opportunity to say, 'No, I don't want my child to read Harry Potter'."
---------------------------------------------------------
(Wasn't sure where to start this thread...apologies if it should be elsewhere).

The principal justifys the banning of ALL Potter books, because the books portray evil (as being) good.

My questions: Is banning Harry Potter justified?
Is the banning of books ever justified?
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...log/GetContent

lurkette · 07-02-2003, 08:47 AM

In a word, nope.

Never, ever ever.

Ok, that's more than a word. I might as well go on.

I can't believe people are still going on about Harry Potter. In the first place they're completely harmless - I can't believe the mere presence of magic is enough in some peoples' minds to override the larger messages which on the whole are quite conservative and Manichean. And in the second place I thought the principle of censorship had been largely discredited by now. If you don't want to read a book, don't read it. If you don't want your child to read a book, don't let them. If you're afraid your child is going to get their hands on the book despite your wishes, well then, there's not much you can do about it. If they're interested enough to check out a book from the library they're interested enough to borrow the fucking book from a friend and read it behind your back. This isn't about protecting children, it's about policing ideas and imposing a small minority's will on the rest of the public.

To answer the larger question, I don't think banning books is ever justified, even the most offensive books. You're essentially trying to control the traffic of ideas - what are books but ideas written down? - and that in my mind is more evil than anything that could be in a book, and the first step on a slippery slope to totalitarianism.

The Atomic Boy · 07-02-2003, 09:16 AM

Banning books is never right. Though Id find it slightly more excusable for a school only ban because if the kids really want to read whatever book is banned they can go to a public library.

Nyenrodian · 07-02-2003, 10:13 AM

Books should never be banned. If they can read Mein Kampf at the library then most certainly they should be allowed to read Harry Friggin' potter.

To me it seems like Star Wars for kids anyways.

Sparhawk · 07-02-2003, 10:28 AM

I fail to see the difference between this:

<img src="http://www.mindsetcentral.com/images/bookburn.jpg">

and this:

<img src="http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/burning/bookburn.jpg">

Charlatan · 07-02-2003, 10:37 AM

No. There is no case where banning of books by a government institution is acceptable.

However, if this christian school is a private institution (i.e. no public money) then they have a right to dictate what goes into their libraries. This is not the same as banning a book as the book in question can still be purchased with very little difficulty anywhere else.

That said, I can't believe anyone would get so worked up about Harry Potter. There are way to many things that matter in this world than to get bent out of shape over what is essentially the story of a good kid (a classic underdog that has to fight every step of the way even) that fights evil.

Some organizations have no sense of perspective.

CSflim · 07-02-2003, 11:08 AM

No. Censorship is ALWAYS ALWAYS wrong!

GunslingerCold · 07-02-2003, 11:34 AM

I agree with Charlatan that if it is a private school they can ban the books from their private property. It isnt like the kids cant go to the public library or buy the book themselves. The school has the right to say they dont agree with the book and think that the kids at their school shouldnt read it. They cant stop the kids from reading the book, theyre just letting everyone know their feelings on the subject.
If it were a public library then that would be a different matter. I do however think it is a stupid stance by the school.

Eviltree · 07-02-2003, 12:36 PM

heh, this stuff always cracks me up. I can't help but find it amusing when these type of people go overboard and completely misunderstand something. It just goes to show how blindly dogmatic people can get about something. I've seen one site that was trying to get these books banned because they saw a story at <i>the onion</i> or something (and gave it as a source.)

Slims · 07-02-2003, 01:03 PM

well yeah, if you think ignorance is power. Otherwise hell no.

Gortexfogg · 07-02-2003, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Double D

"We would deal with, say, Macbeth and Hamlet, because evil there is being portrayed as evil and not as being good, whereas Harry Potter is on a quest to become the best possible wizard and that's being applauded by the author," Langerak told Reuters.

Harry Potter's trying to be the best possible wizard so he can stop evil wizards. There can be good wizards, just like there can be bad Christians (i.e. the guy who banned the book...). Banning books is nonsense.

Halx · 07-02-2003, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Double D
"And us poor muggles are being put in a bad light," he added, using the name by which the book refers to non-magical people.

bad english coming from someone talking about books

Double D · 07-02-2003, 03:57 PM

Ah yes, Halx makes a good point.

Everyone remember the rule (I've forgotten most, but this one somehow stuck) with a sentence like this:

"And us poor muggles are being put in a bad light," he added, using the name by which the book refers to non-magical people.

To know whether to use *us* or *we* in this sentence, in your mind, take out the *poor muggles* part.
Then which sentence sounds better?
*And we are being put in a bad light..., etc.*
OR
*And us are being put in a bad light...?*

And I think there also a problem (English whizzes jump in now, please) with the orginal sentence in that it is a sentence fragment.

gov135 · 07-02-2003, 04:04 PM

Most adults who ban books fail to see that children view these books differently.

A child thinks Harry is an adventure, a good time. Not a substitute diety. Kids know what is fantasy and what is not. Wonder who has a better grip on reality, the clergy or the children?

RedCometChar · 07-02-2003, 10:48 PM

I still fail to see what all the complaining about HP is about. It isn't like Harry's a pagan or anything... he and his friends celebrate Christmas every year, even if it isn't observed as a religious event.

At my local library a few months ago, there was a display of books which had been banned for one reason or another over the years in the US (not that the library was currently restricting access to these particular books, mind you). Most of them were children's books which small-minded adults took exception with somehow- for example, there was an elementary book on Buddhism, banned because "it describes Buddhism in such a way as to make children consider making it their religion." Go figure, huh?

Nyenrodian · 07-02-2003, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RedCometChar
for example, there was an elementary book on Buddhism, banned because "it describes Buddhism in such a way as to make children consider making it their religion." Go figure, huh?

When you put it like that it looks like there is no separation between religion and the state in the U.S.A.

The Atomic Boy · 07-03-2003, 12:04 AM

What everyone fails to realize here is kids inspired by Harry will ofcourse want to be like Harry. First they read the Harry Potter series than they start checking out occult books. They begin to learn to use magic to destroy their enemies all the while making sacrafices to their pagan gods.

Double D · 07-03-2003, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Atomic Boy
What everyone fails to realize here is kids inspired by Harry will ofcourse want to be like Harry. First they read the Harry Potter series than they start checking out occult books. They begin to learn to use magic to destroy their enemies all the while making sacrafices to their pagan gods.

I hope you are kidding. It's late and my sense-of-humor meter is on empty. If you are at all serious, you need to talk to some (child) HP fans.

A kid that can get through an 870 page book has the wits to distinguish between the fantasy of HP and real life.

MacGnG · 07-03-2003, 07:07 PM

there is no reason to ban books
NOT promoting them is what should be done, if somehting like that is going to be done

The Atomic Boy · 07-03-2003, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Double D
I hope you are kidding. It's late and my sense-of-humor meter is on empty. If you are at all serious, you need to talk to some (child) HP fans.

A kid that can get through an 870 page book has the wits to distinguish between the fantasy of HP and real life.

Yeah sometimes I forget people can't hear my sarcastic tones over the internet. I think fundamentalists tend to be rather pessimistic. I'm not a fan of the Potter books but I do respect that its got children nationwide reading more than I ever did at their age and I used to be a fairly avid reader. I was impressed to have read a 400 page book in the ffth or foruth grade and that was a Star Trek novel...

boredjerk · 07-03-2003, 09:18 PM

no, but private schools can do whatever the hell they want

rodimus · 07-07-2003, 01:02 PM

in short... no ... like there was a where's waldo book that was banned for 1 hidden nude guy

John Henry · 07-07-2003, 01:49 PM

With all due respect to fellow members of TFP...

Sure, ban Harry Potter. Never mind the witchcraft, it's just another example of a well marketed mediocre idea making one person rich while the rest of the market is crowded out and ignored.

And never mind this 'all censorship is wrong' stuff. What about snuff?!

Miserlou · 07-07-2003, 07:34 PM

I read the 5th book of Harry Potter already and theirs a funny irony to all this.
****tiny spoilers*************************************

In the book their is a time when a controversial story (Harry's explanation) is released in the paper.
The headmaster of the school bans the paper from being within the school grounds and anyone caught with it will be expelled.
Upon Harry hearing about this the dialogue goes:
Harry: This is Terrible!
Hermione: This is great!
Harry: What?....How?
Hermione: By banning that story she just made sure that every person in this school will attempt to read it.
Harry: oh...that is good.

Relates to exactly what is happening.

07-02-2003, 08:36 AM	#1 (permalink)
Double D Junkie Location: Chicagoland	Is Banning Books Ever Justified? School Bans Potter's Magic Wed July 2, 2003 08:13 AM ET SYDNEY (Reuters) - An Australian Christian school has banned the new best-selling adventure of teenage wizard Harry Potter, saying the book promotes evil witchcraft and magic. Bert Langerak, principal of the Maranatha Christian School in the southern city of Melbourne, said Wednesday none of the five books in author J. K. Rowling's blockbuster Harry Potter series was welcome on the school's library shelves. "We would deal with, say, Macbeth and Hamlet, because evil there is being portrayed as evil and not as being good, whereas Harry Potter is on a quest to become the best possible wizard and that's being applauded by the author," Langerak told Reuters. "And us poor muggles are being put in a bad light," he added, using the name by which the book refers to non-magical people. The latest book in the series -- Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix -- became an instant best seller around the world when it was launched last month. Langerak said the school was leaving it up to parents to decide if they wanted to expose their children to Harry Potter and his unchristian magic turbo-charged brooms. "If they want their kids to read Harry Potter, so be it. But I think that parents also have to be given the opportunity to say, 'No, I don't want my child to read Harry Potter'." --------------------------------------------------------- (Wasn't sure where to start this thread...apologies if it should be elsewhere). The principal justifys the banning of ALL Potter books, because the books portray evil (as being) good. My questions: Is banning Harry Potter justified? Is the banning of books ever justified? ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...log/GetContent Last edited by Double D; 07-02-2003 at 10:21 AM..

07-02-2003, 08:47 AM	#2 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	In a word, nope. Never, ever ever. Ok, that's more than a word. I might as well go on. I can't believe people are still going on about Harry Potter. In the first place they're completely harmless - I can't believe the mere presence of magic is enough in some peoples' minds to override the larger messages which on the whole are quite conservative and Manichean. And in the second place I thought the principle of censorship had been largely discredited by now. If you don't want to read a book, don't read it. If you don't want your child to read a book, don't let them. If you're afraid your child is going to get their hands on the book despite your wishes, well then, there's not much you can do about it. If they're interested enough to check out a book from the library they're interested enough to borrow the fucking book from a friend and read it behind your back. This isn't about protecting children, it's about policing ideas and imposing a small minority's will on the rest of the public. To answer the larger question, I don't think banning books is ever justified, even the most offensive books. You're essentially trying to control the traffic of ideas - what are books but ideas written down? - and that in my mind is more evil than anything that could be in a book, and the first step on a slippery slope to totalitarianism. __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

07-02-2003, 09:16 AM	#3 (permalink)
The Atomic Boy Tilted Location: Indianapolis	Banning books is never right. Though Id find it slightly more excusable for a school only ban because if the kids really want to read whatever book is banned they can go to a public library. __________________ All problems no matter how complex can be solved with fire and/or duct tape.

07-02-2003, 10:13 AM	#4 (permalink)
Nyenrodian Tilted	Books should never be banned. If they can read Mein Kampf at the library then most certainly they should be allowed to read Harry Friggin' potter. To me it seems like Star Wars for kids anyways. Last edited by Nyenrodian; 07-02-2003 at 10:43 AM..

07-02-2003, 10:28 AM	#5 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	I fail to see the difference between this: <img src="http://www.mindsetcentral.com/images/bookburn.jpg"> and this: <img src="http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/burning/bookburn.jpg"> __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

07-02-2003, 10:37 AM	#6 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	No. There is no case where banning of books by a government institution is acceptable. However, if this christian school is a private institution (i.e. no public money) then they have a right to dictate what goes into their libraries. This is not the same as banning a book as the book in question can still be purchased with very little difficulty anywhere else. That said, I can't believe anyone would get so worked up about Harry Potter. There are way to many things that matter in this world than to get bent out of shape over what is essentially the story of a good kid (a classic underdog that has to fight every step of the way even) that fights evil. Some organizations have no sense of perspective. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

07-02-2003, 11:08 AM	#7 (permalink)
CSflim Sky Piercer Location: Ireland	No. Censorship is ALWAYS ALWAYS wrong! __________________

07-02-2003, 11:34 AM	#8 (permalink)
GunslingerCold Banned Location: IL	I agree with Charlatan that if it is a private school they can ban the books from their private property. It isnt like the kids cant go to the public library or buy the book themselves. The school has the right to say they dont agree with the book and think that the kids at their school shouldnt read it. They cant stop the kids from reading the book, theyre just letting everyone know their feelings on the subject. If it were a public library then that would be a different matter. I do however think it is a stupid stance by the school.

07-02-2003, 12:36 PM	#9 (permalink)
Eviltree Psycho Location: British Columbia	heh, this stuff always cracks me up. I can't help but find it amusing when these type of people go overboard and completely misunderstand something. It just goes to show how blindly dogmatic people can get about something. I've seen one site that was trying to get these books banned because they saw a story at <i>the onion</i> or something (and gave it as a source.)

07-02-2003, 01:03 PM	#10 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	well yeah, if you think ignorance is power. Otherwise hell no. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

07-02-2003, 03:57 PM	#13 (permalink)
Double D Junkie Location: Chicagoland	Ah yes, Halx makes a good point. Everyone remember the rule (I've forgotten most, but this one somehow stuck) with a sentence like this: "And us poor muggles are being put in a bad light," he added, using the name by which the book refers to non-magical people. To know whether to use us or we in this sentence, in your mind, take out the poor muggles part. Then which sentence sounds better? And we are being put in a bad light..., etc. OR And us are being put in a bad light...? And I think there also a problem (English whizzes jump in now, please) with the orginal sentence in that it is a sentence fragment.

07-02-2003, 04:04 PM	#14 (permalink)
gov135 Junkie Location: Midwest	Most adults who ban books fail to see that children view these books differently. A child thinks Harry is an adventure, a good time. Not a substitute diety. Kids know what is fantasy and what is not. Wonder who has a better grip on reality, the clergy or the children?

07-02-2003, 10:48 PM	#15 (permalink)
RedCometChar Not Brand Ecch! Location: New Orleans	I still fail to see what all the complaining about HP is about. It isn't like Harry's a pagan or anything... he and his friends celebrate Christmas every year, even if it isn't observed as a religious event. At my local library a few months ago, there was a display of books which had been banned for one reason or another over the years in the US (not that the library was currently restricting access to these particular books, mind you). Most of them were children's books which small-minded adults took exception with somehow- for example, there was an elementary book on Buddhism, banned because "it describes Buddhism in such a way as to make children consider making it their religion." Go figure, huh? __________________ Killing that robot makes me want to go home.

07-03-2003, 12:04 AM	#17 (permalink)
The Atomic Boy Tilted Location: Indianapolis	What everyone fails to realize here is kids inspired by Harry will ofcourse want to be like Harry. First they read the Harry Potter series than they start checking out occult books. They begin to learn to use magic to destroy their enemies all the while making sacrafices to their pagan gods. __________________ All problems no matter how complex can be solved with fire and/or duct tape.

07-03-2003, 07:07 PM	#19 (permalink)
MacGnG Know Where!	there is no reason to ban books NOT promoting them is what should be done, if somehting like that is going to be done

07-03-2003, 09:18 PM	#21 (permalink)
boredjerk Insane Location: Antarctica	no, but private schools can do whatever the hell they want __________________ Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke.

07-07-2003, 01:02 PM	#22 (permalink)
rodimus Insane	in short... no ... like there was a where's waldo book that was banned for 1 hidden nude guy

07-07-2003, 01:49 PM	#23 (permalink)
John Henry Addict Location: Grey Britain	With all due respect to fellow members of TFP... Sure, ban Harry Potter. Never mind the witchcraft, it's just another example of a well marketed mediocre idea making one person rich while the rest of the market is crowded out and ignored. And never mind this 'all censorship is wrong' stuff. What about snuff?! __________________ "No one was behaving from very Buddhist motives. Then, thought Pigsy, he was hardly a Buddha, nor was he a monkey. Presently, he was a pig spirit changed into a little girl pretending to be a little boy to be offered to a water monster. It was all very simple to a pig spirit."

07-07-2003, 07:34 PM	#24 (permalink)
Miserlou Insane	I read the 5th book of Harry Potter already and theirs a funny irony to all this. **tiny spoilers*********************************** In the book their is a time when a controversial story (Harry's explanation) is released in the paper. The headmaster of the school bans the paper from being within the school grounds and anyone caught with it will be expelled. Upon Harry hearing about this the dialogue goes: Harry: This is Terrible! Hermione: This is great! Harry: What?....How? Hermione: By banning that story she just made sure that every person in this school will attempt to read it. Harry: oh...that is good. Relates to exactly what is happening. __________________ "Oh, these pies arn't homeade. They're from a factory............a bomb factory.................they're bombs."