Willravel

I'll ask that this thread be renamed when the next title is revealed.

This thread is about speculation regarding the next Batman movie following the Dark Knight. It will feature speculation on plot, casting, villain, title, and many other things. Hopefully it will also be the official thread in the next year or two when information about Batman Begins 3 starts to surface.

Be warned: thar be spoilers ahead.

I'd like to start this with speculation about the general plot and thus the villain(s) which will help to close the best Batman franchise ever. I'm going to come right out and say it: Catwoman. We were allowed a glimpse of the Batman pretenders in The Dark Knight, and it stands to reason that there will be more and more as time goes on. One such pretender, or at least one who is inspired to vigilantism, could be a thief by the name of Selena Kyle. After the untimely death of Rachel Dawes, Batman/Bruce will likely be left heartbroken and not find any comfort in the arms of the more shallow company he keeps as Bruce. Along with Batman being chased by the police in connection with the Dent murders, he will be in an especially dark place. I somehow don't think this will be enough story, though. This leaves the floor open for another villain.

I'll admit to being concerned that it could be the Riddler, or as I like to call him "the second most boring villain in Batman's rogues gallery after the Penguin". I hope this idea is dismissed, instead being someone a bit more complex and maybe sinister. I would personally like to see one of two: Bane or Mr. Freeze. I know that these are both a bit more science fiction than Ras, Scarecrow, and Joker, but we need escalation to be followed, as it's a central theme of the franchise.

Bane: Around 1993, when I was a boy who read comic books, Bane was a very different character than the one most might be familiar with today. He is a brilliant strategist, very cultured, and even a bit melancholy, in addition to his greatly enhanced strength from the venom serum. Bane's hatred of Batman comes from his own childhood, where he is haunted by nightmares of a demonic figure which resembles Batman. Instead of attacking Batman, he attacks Arkham and frees many great villains which Batman spends months rounding up. Bane discovers Batman's identity and battles him at Wane Manor, eventually breaking Batman's back, paralyzing him. Many likened this moment (which can be seen in the Knightfall series 1993-1994) as being paralleled to the death of Superman at the hands of Doomsday. A combination of Robin, Catwoman, and a character named "Azrael" had to protect the city as Bruce went to seek out a supernatural means of healing.

I'm not saying they have to follow this story (though it's quite engaging), but using the character of Bane from this series, instead of the dumb brute as he is portrayed elsewhere, would be good for the series.

Mr. Freeze: please, please forget Arnold's despicable suck fest. The Mr. Freeze from pre-crisis and from the Animated series of the 90s was a complex, depressed, and endlessly devoted man who's one purpose in life was to save his beloved wife. All of the crimes he committed were to fund or somehow help to find the cure to her ailment (which changed from time to time, but basically she has to be kept in a suspended state or die). Ra's, Scarecrow, and Joker, the villains so far, have been id's run wild. None of them were particularly sympathetic characters which allowed us the simple choice of siding with Batman completely, even when he was doing morally questionable things to stop them. But what of a heroic character who is obsessed with saving his one true love? Not even Two-Face can compete with that.

There are a lot of other villains to consider, and there is the fact that Batman will be hunted by the Gotham Police, which also opens up the possibility of Batman squaring off with a hero. I keep coming back to Green Arrow, who is nearly a mirror image of Batman—wealthy, socially active, anti-hero, relies on technology instead of superpowers—but just different enough that he could make for an interesting challenge for Batman.

Robin/Nightwing? The Dark Knight made it clear that Bruce agreed that staying Batman forever was a mistake and something he wasn't interested in. He wants someone to take over, and this could be motivation to accept someone under his wing. No annoying little kid, or some idiot (Chris O'Donnel), but someone who Batman fears will become a villain if he doesn't interfere.

Thoughts?

RetroGunslinger

You pretty much just summed up my feelings on the subject. While I have a personal liking of the Mad Hatter, I know many hate that character so I'll just forget about it.

I think the Bane story line could work very well, but mostly I'd like the Joker back. I realize that many think it a sacrilege, but did anyone seriously think Heath Ledger couldn't be bested before his performance became known? Of course not. I think there is someone out there vaguely similar looking to Ledger who could do just as well if not better at making the joker their own, while keeping him in the same spirit of Ledger's incarnation.

Having said that, I don't think the Joker has to be a main character. I think having Bane brought in would be perfect, especially if they followed the basic Knightfall story and had him broken out of Arkham by Bane.

Your idea for Catwoman and Robin/Nightwing were exactly how I thought they could be done, as heroes inspired by Batman. Selena Kyle of course would be an anti-hero, but I'm sure falling in love with Bats would work fine as justification for a string of heroics.

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Nikilidstrom

The most interesting of the ideas, and the one that fits the current story arc best for me is the Batman being hunted by another hero or heroes. There is plenty of opportunity in that storyline to introduce morality and difficult choices, as well as upping the difficulty for Batman as he tries to stop other villains while being hunted down. Also, having chosen his current vigilante guise, he would be unwilling to do to much harm to the hero hunting him as he would understand why they would come for him. The current role he has chosen for himself is almost designed to draw out that hero, one that Gotham could be proud to have and possibly replace Dent as their "White Knight."

As far as Robin, my understanding of Bruce's wishes in the films aren't that he hopes someone will replace him as a masked vigilante so he won't have to do it forever, but that when the right person comes along to lead Gotham in the right direction, his role of vigilante/protector won't be needed any longer, and he can retire to a normal life and not need to be replaced.

As long as Nolan avoids Robin or Batgirl, I'll be happy.

Willravel

It wasn't intentional, but you're absolutely right. My concern is that Gordon will have to be Batman's enemy and eventually catch him. Awkward.

ratbastid

Christian Bale has said he won't do a Batman film that has a Robin character. So that's out--I presume Nolan has learned from the earlier series of films that a revolving-door of batmen just doesn't work.

I agree that Penguin, Riddler, and Poison Ivy need to be avoided--their portrayals in the earlier films was just too iconic, and it would take someone of Ledgerian talent to reclaim the characters from the camp portrayals they're known for. Not that it couldn't be done, but it'd be nice to tread some new ground, the way the first film did.

There's a whole panoply of great Batman baddies. I'd like to see the story of Dr. Kurt Langstrom (a.k.a. The Man-Bat) make it into a feature. It's a great, tragic story. I think Clayface would be fun. Maybe Killer Croc, too.

I'd like to see Joker's "Red Hood" backstory. You've got to think that Joker will be a feature badguy in the next movie, given he's up at Arkham just waiting to get sprung by either Bane or Harley Quinn. For SURE we need Harley Quinn, if we get Joker back. Love that crazy little clown chick.

I'd like to see Talia al Ghul show up as a love interest, perhaps competing with Selena Kyle.

RetroGunslinger

I can't believe I forgot: BLACK MASK! Considering the reliance on the mob as a major part of the story, who better to introduce? A business tycoon who loses his job on account of his own failure, goes insane, and carves a mask out of a piece of his mother's coffin? Brilliant!

Bane, Black Mask, and Catwoman, anyone?

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Willravel

I couldn't watch someone else play the Clown Prince of Crime. It was depressing enough seeing Heath Ledger do so well posthumously.

Atreides88

I would honestly like to see Catwoman make an appearance. She's the perfect love interest: dark past, secret life, etc.

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Willravel

Who would be good to play Catwoman? My first thought was Charlize Theron, but I'm still not sure that she's a good actress. Tricia Helfer? Carrie Anne Moss? Naomi Watts? Jolene Blalock? Michelle Monaghan? Thandie Newton? I'm having trouble deciding who I'd like.

Atreides88

Therein lies the rub. I think you'd need a great method actress like Bale to do it. Moss, no. Newton, no. Blalock, absolutely not. I honestly couldn't tell you. I'd almost say Angelina Jolie, but I don't think she could pull it off. Maybe Winona Ryder?

The whole point of Catwoman is that she is Batman's kindred spirit. They never know eachother's real identities, and that's what makes it so interesting. As for villains, I think Riddler could work, but it couldn't be played like it has before. I don't think Mr. Freeze or Poison Ivy are ready yet. This isn't the fantastical Batman, it's too gritty, too based in reality. Maybe Penguin could work, but as more of the Penultimate mobster, hellbent on taking over Gotham.

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"There is no need to suppose that human beings differ very much one from another: but it is true that the ones who come out on top are the ones who have been trained in the hardest school." -- Thucydides

Frosstbyte

Please for the love of all that is holy don't make Angelina Jolie Catwoman. Watching her in Wanted was almost painful.

I finished what I was doing, so now I can add to this post, which was kind of...abrupt the first time.

I basically think there is a very strong incentive to find someone who can do Ledger's Joker justice. Speaking of another A Knight's Tale alumn, I heard it thrown about the Paul Bettany was considered as another candidate for the Joker. It'd be different than Ledger's, sure, but I can see it. And I think it'd work. While letting the character die with Ledger is very poetic and all, the character is far too vibrant and important to the Nolan mythos for me to think that it's worth it to not try damn fucking hard to find someone else.

Which says nothing for the fact that a return to Arkham gives them a chance to bring back the Scarecrow in a meaningful way, and also to introduce some new lovely villains as RB mentioned earlier in this thread.

I think introducing Catwoman is tempting, because she'd fit very well into Nolan's grey, contemporary Gotham city, but the trouble really is finding someone to play her convincingly both in terms of appearance and in terms of attitude. The looks have to be there, but having Catwoman be like Katie Holmes's Rachel Dawes would just kill the movie. I almost wonder if looking for someone a little older might not be a bad idea, instead of trying to pick between hot, vapid starlets. Maybe Carla Gugino, Linda Fiorentino or Jennifer Tilly? Not totally sure. Theron has potential, since her performance tends to vary a lot based on her direction. With Nolan at the Helm, he could probably make it work. The rest of the girls on your list aren't cutting it for me so much.

That being said, unlike Nicholson's Joker, I'm pretty sure you could port Pfiefer's Catwoman over to Nolan's world without a whole lot of trouble, which kind of makes her a less interesting character to reboot.

Heck, let's just throw irony in the blender and cast Michelle Williams. Quasi-widow of Ledger, Dawson's Creek alumnae, what do we have to lose?

Willravel

Winona Ryder, hmm. She's always been a bit of an uncertainty in my mind. I think she can act, but as I look back over her filmography I can really only think of her playing the same character over and over again. She's like Will Smith.

Carla Gugino's an interesting choice. She'd probably have to get in shape, but I'm sure she could do that. I think she's a good actress, but for the life of me I can't remember what she's been especially good in. Fiorentino's too old (Dogma was made about 10 years ago). Same with Tilly (not to mention she really can't act).

I'll throw some entirely different names out there (names that I think of when I ask myself who the best actresses are): Tilda Swinton, Cate Blanchett, Hilary Swank, and Helena Bonham Carter.

Derwood

I'm betting on Cat Woman or The Riddler as the next villain, with a possible return of Two-Face (they never said he was dead).

In Nolan's universe, however, no villain can be really cartoony. I see The Riddler as more of a John Doe in Se7en type.....serial killer who likes playing games with the cops.

Willravel

They had a rather public funeral, but he may not have been in the coffin.
Hmmm.... sociopath toying with the cops. You mean like the Joker? Too similar. They need someone physically powerful in some way, to stand in opposition to Scarecrow, Two-Face, and Joker. That's why I thought Bane would be an interesting choice. Maybe he's a "consultant" for hire who works with police to catch particularly bad criminals. I dunno.

Derwood

but is Bane a "franchise" villain for a trilogy?

Willravel

Burton had the Penguin for Batman Returns. He has no powers and is completely uninteresting.

Bane is interesting.

Derwood

and the Penguin was completely lame.

as for "powers", I don't want a villain who has any. there has been nothing supernatural about the series so far and I don't want it to go that route

ratbastid

If by "franchise", you mean "appeared in the 60's show", then not as I recall, no. That's where most non-comic-book-geeks get their knowledge of the Batman universe from. Anybody not steeped in Batman cannon knows of their Gotham criminals from their interaction with Adam West's Batman, and they expect Sid Caesar and Burgess Meredith.

But look: Scarecrow wasn't around then. Neither was Ra's al Ghul. Those are really almost completely from the books (and the 90's cartoon, but that's not really in most people's awareness, either). It was BALSY to do a Batman movie without a Joker-caliber badguy, and the totally pulled it off. They could do it again.

One of the themes from Dark Knight that I LOVED is that Batman himself is the destabilizing factor that makes Joker go costumed. I think Nolan could easily put the next film in a Gotham where the criminal element has gone as crazy as Batman is, and a more cartoonish quality is accepted.
-----Added 26/7/2008 at 01 : 14 : 37-----
Bane's "powers" are scientific in origin. Every bit as scientific as Scarecrow's spooky-dust, anyway.

Willravel

I suspect most fans now get their Batman IQ from the Animated Series from the 90s. Mine comes from a combination of graphic novels and that series.

thespian86

As for Jolie, I heard that she has already been asked about it; it also makes me sad. How about Alexis Bledel; I know it seems very strange but she has this almost innocent air while also a teasing viciousness. Plus, she is incredibly talented as well as beautiful. Also, the following: Natalie Portman, Rachel McAdams, Scarlett Johannson, Rachel Weisz, Allison Lohman, Claire Danes, Selma Blair, or Zooey Deschanel (who I think would be wonderful).

Just some thoughts.

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Derwood

actually, i meant is Bane a villain who can carry a film.

I think it would be interesting to introduce Harley Quinn as either someone who is carrying out The Joker's schemes from jail, or as a Joker copy cat villain.

Jimellow

My take on the Two Face and the funeral was that he was dead to the rest of the world, no longer affiliated with the police/government, and thus could re-emerge as a character with "freedom" much like Batman has at night.

I'm not familiar with Batman and the characters beyond the recent movies, but it seems unlikely to me that they would introduce the second "half" of Two Face halfway through the movie, and then have him die and be gone forever upon its conclusion. It just seems like a very short lifespan for such a well developed character.

I also thought it possible that Batman will take a step back and Two Face could become the new representation of good, as the photography shots during the closing moments of the movie indicated that if only one aspect of him were to die, it would be his evil side.

However, due to me not being familiar with the characters beyond the two most recent movies, I'm not sure how viable that is. But if Batman does really take a step back, then someone is going to have to fill his shoes; and I suppose that could also lead to an introduction of Robin, though I like to think it's going to be Two Face, if only because it's what I initially thought could be the future of the character.

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Derwood

Eckhart was signed for two films, so there you go

Willravel

It could be memories or old footage.

Atreides88

Scarlet Johannsen or maybe Keira Knightley. I still think Winona Ryder could pull it off with the problem direction and preparations.

I honestly don't want to see anyone with "superpowers" enter the equation, unless it has a solid scientific explanation. My guess is that we're going to see multiple criminals appear in the next movie, just like Dark Knight. I would love to see Mr. Freeze or the Riddler make an appearance, but I don't know if you can pull Mr. Freeze off without making it cartoonish, and I'm not sure if you can pull off the Riddler without making him like the Joker.

I suspect we'll be seeing Two-Face again, just this time his personality will be fully split and Harvey Dent will be all but dead.

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"There is no need to suppose that human beings differ very much one from another: but it is true that the ones who come out on top are the ones who have been trained in the hardest school." -- Thucydides

Derwood

I thought it was pretty clear he wasn't dead at the end of TDK. They did the Cmsr. Gordon eulogy in order to preserve the "white knight of gotham" image of Dent but Dent could easily be at-large or at Arkham

Willravel

I remember reading something about lasers being used to create cold, maybe a few years back. That could be used to explain the Freeze Gun. As for Bane, steroids have a lot of different incarnations.

Derwood

honestly, I don't know much about Bane, which is why I asked if he could carry a movie

Willravel

ratbastid

I could see a whole film being written around the Kurt Langstrom "Man-Bat" story.

Derwood

i think the challenge facing Nolan is that Ledger was SO good as The Joker (and The Joker is such an icon of the Batman universe) that it'll be hard to top it. I don't think a villain who isn't very well known will do it. Cat Woman or the Riddler might

JustJess

I definitely think Two Face is coming back - they were just too subtle about how they worded his "death" and separating Harvey Dent from his murders. But isn't Two Face a villain? How would he step forward into being a good guy now? That seems... off.

Most of the women mentioned for Catwoman are NOT dark enough, I think. I'll come back when I figure out who is.

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Willravel

That particular story, despite being really awesome, is probably too science fiction to seem in line with BB and TDK.

The Faba

Possible upcoming villians? My thoughts...

Riddler. I love the riddler personally - no flash, no thrash - just a crazy loon who toys with people.

Possible actors?

Jim Carrey would be good with his improved acting talent - however we won't see him as... 1) He's already done it and 2) people whould see him as Ace Ventura, something that doesn't fit *at all* in this new semi-gothic Gotham.

John Lithgow. This was my personal idea. Before you dismiss him as a simple comedian - imagine how his face would look in a flickering shadow as his slightly nasally voice qeuries in a loud, angered voice "Riddle me this, Batman!" His voice makes this a very possible choice.

Daniel Day-Lewis. The only thing I can think of that would prevent his casting is his voice. He absorbs himself into his roles and produces steller performances with 'bad guys'. (See Gangs of New York)

Robin Williams. He has the voice, he's done serious movies, and I think he could pull the villian aura off well.


Mister Freeze. This would be extremely easy in the technopunk-gothic movie Gotham . The suit would look awesome and would fit in very well in the setting. This is who I'm putting my money on, as the tag team of Two Face and Freeze appeals to me.

Possible Actors?

My only thought on this is Hugh Laurie. Not because he absolutely needs to be cast in the role, but because I can't think of anyone else at the moment. He's not imposing enough by himself to be imposing, but you slap on a suit that looks like it weighs 300 pounds and the imposing factor takes care of itself. Plus he looks intellectual. I'm not saying it's the best choice, I'm just saying it's possible.

Catwoman and Poison Ivy

These two may be cast into the same movie, or may be seperated. I'm pretty sure that the writers will avoid the fiasco that we saw in Spiderman 3. (Well, other people saw - I know better than to spend 2 hours watching a slideshow of various Spiderman villians)

Unfortunately, I dislike Catwoman as a villian. Whenever she appears the show / comic / movie / conversation turns into a drama, rather than an action. Posion Ivy has the same problem, but much less so. Ivy would be more interesting, but I'm completely sure Catwoman will be seen before her.

Actors?

Halle Berry. Sorry - I had to write it. There's not a chance in hell. I really have no idea who would be cast in the female slots.

Firefly. A long shot, but a possiblity. Someone crazy looking would be necessary. I'm out of ideas though.

Bane. Another possiblity. Once again, no idea on casting. The problem here is that you'd need to find a bodybuilder who is a good actor. These are notoriously rare.

Willravel

Casting for the Riddler? Ryan Gosling or maybe an older Riddler played by Geoffrey Rush.

Bane? Viggo Mortensen. He's in good shape off Venom, but on Venom he can be CG. They need someone smart, assertive, and most importantly someone who owns the room.

Mr Freeze? I'm thinking either Ralph Fiennes or David Strathairn.

Daniel Day Lewis would turn down a role in a Batman movie. As much as I'd love to see him do it, he's above them.

Derwood

A great actor for The Riddler is already in the movie: Gary Oldman

Prophecy

Will, you mentioned a new Freeze simply because he could be someone that the audience could feel sorry for, someone they could sympathize or empathize with. In that same vein what about the original Scarface with Arnold Wesker at the helm?

Being a child of the mob he could fit that angle and his Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality Disorder?) could link into Arkham Asylum. Granted having a killer ventriloquist could wind up being very childish. However, if done correctly Wesker's self-conflicting nature could provide a world of depth.

However, I could see Riddler being the next villian and taking this chance to turn Batman from just a vigilante with high tech, a la Punisher, into one of the world's greatest detectives as he's often billed in the comics.

As for Bane, I don't see how they could add him without staying true to the end mythos. So now the Bat is broken... Where do we go from here? We can't end with Bruce crippled and adding Azrael (Valley) just seems crazy. Not to mention adding Valley instead of Robin or Nightwing would lose more than a few people. So that means Batman has to be broken and the come back from being a paralyzed better than ever. Just explaining that might be a bit much in the realistic world that the films are set in.

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Atreides88

I think Patrick Stewart could pull off Mr. Freeze, but I'm afraid too many people would see him as Captain Picard. Perhaps Dane Cook as the Riddler, I think he could pull it off. He was great in Mr. Brooks. Robin Williams and John Lithgow are just too famous and won't be taken seriously by the public. I think you'd have to find someone like Ledger for the Riddler. It would need to be someone who can transform themselves into the person they're playing and totally steal the show. At the moment I can't think of anyone who isn't already playing a role in the movie.

__________________
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Willravel

The dummy wouldn't work. We could see that he was nuts, but we've already had the best in that category: Joker. comics.
The Nolan Batman movies have not stuck with the original comic books. They wouldn't have to have Batman's back broken, just have him lose 1 on 1 really badly.

Nikilidstrom

Wow, Daniel Day Lewis would be amazing as a Batman villain, not necessarily as Riddler, but someone much darker, maybe even a replacement for Ledger's Joker, as he seems to get just as absorbed in his roles as Ledger did in this one. Unfortunatley I think Will is right, he would consider himself above comic book movies.