SecretMethod70

Basically, I agree with the concept, and I think it could go somewhere interesting like you propose... I just don't like watching the scenes and having the sensory dissonance where I know they want me to be enjoying watching Dushku in a sex scene (you can't argue that they're not filmed to be titillating) yet instead I'm revolted by the fact that this character is being raped before my eyes and the cinematographer/producer/director don't seem to appreciate that fact.

For the story, I think it could be great and interesting. I just don't think it's handled well on the technical side of things. I'll give them that it probably can't be handled appropriately on network TV, but that's no excuse to treat it like any regular sex scene.

---

On a different topic, I also think this show concept has limited life. To be done well, I think it should be 2, absolute max 3 network TV seasons. Of course, that's also just a personal preference. I enjoy shows a lot more than have fewer episodes per season and/or shorter life spans. They tend to have tighter plot focus.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

sapiens

Yes, that's what I was thinking. The creators don't present the rape and abuse in a way that expresses the gravity of the rape and abuse. The viewer isn't at all challenged. It's presented in the same manner that a normal sex scene in bad television is often presented.
Good point. I can't imagine network television handling the frequent rape with an appropriate tone.

Cynthetiq

but that's the crux of this... she's not really being raped. she's consenting. the premise for the consent is flawed, but at the time of the act, she's consenting.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

RetroGunslinger

I'm going to give it the season. Sure, Firefly did well with just one season (it wasn't enough to quench my thirst, but it was amazing), but Buffy is arguably Joss' best show and frankly, the first season wasn't that great. By the time it was done however, I was addicted. If Joss and crew can create some new twist midway through, I believe this could be a pretty nice ride.

Besides, the second episode--despite a simple, not-too-original premise--was a pretty big jump up in script quality and cracked open enough doors to make me believe this could be something exciting and addictive. We'll see.

And besides all that, if Sarah Connor can get a second season, so should this.

__________________
It's a rare pleasure in this world to get your mind fucked. Usually it's just foreplay.

M.B. Keene

sapiens

I don't see how a person being neurologically manipulated can be consenting. Isn't it akin to drugging and then having sex with a person?

ratbastid

Well, see, it brings up all sorts of questions about identity. Inside the Dollhouse (as they've pointed out to the point of absurdity), Echo isn't even a person. She's an empty shell. When she's on assignment, then... who is she? Is she the implant? Or is she some former human that once inhabited those neurons?

It's a thorny question. The FBI guy (who I can't help but call "Hilo") seems to think that the proto-Echo person is a victim of the evil Dollhouse wranglers. But Echo almost certainly wouldn't think so.

And remember the first scene of the pilot--with Echo (except she was called, I think, Caroline?) sitting across from Ms. Whatsit (the Brit who runs the place). In that scene, it's clear she made a conscious, well-informed decision to put herself in the Dollhouse. Given that, you'd have to say she consented to just about anything her physical person would be subjected to.

Cynthetiq

It could be that exactly.

But that's the premise that is flawed. It's just like brainwashing someone ala Patty Hearst.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

sapiens

They imply that she is not an empty shell, that she still possesses some semblance of her original identity.

From the scene you reference, it seemed more like she had limited choice and was unable to give informed consent.

ratbastid

I don't know about that. She obviously wasn't happy about it. But "actions have consequences", she said at the end of the scene. I think she had to know what she was getting into, and was clear the trade-off she was making.

Frosstbyte

Not gonna lie, guys, if you want to get caught up in whether she's being "raped" and didn't consent, I think you should probably pass on this show.

You are certainly supposed to be uncomfortable with the fact that these people are imprinted shells, but that first scene shows without question that she made a choice to enter the program in exchange for...well, we don't know yet. I'm sure they made quite clear the kinds of things that would happen to her if she entered the dollhouse, and, while she might have liked the alternative to joining even less (if you want to call it a forced choice, fine) that doesn't change the fact that she chose to do so.

SecretMethod70

Actions have consequences...

When someone does something knowing the consequence could be getting killed by the mob, and then accepts that inevitable consequence when it comes (does not put up a fight), does that become suicide just because they submit to their lack of real choice?

The Dollhouse is clearly an illegal organization which corners these people into this "consequence" as the result of some predicament they're in. As she also says in that opening scene, "I don't have a choice, do I?" Clearly not consent.

It's true that the personalities which inhabit Echo's body are consenting to their actions, but we as the audience know that Caroline is not. The presentation ought to acknowledge that rather than try to titillate the viewer.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Cynthetiq

maybe that will be how the series unfolds, making the sex scenes become more uncomfortable... we'll see what happens tonight.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

sapiens

Now THAT would be interesting....Lulling people into appreciating typical sex in a television show and then showing that the sex (that they enjoyed watching) was not consensual.

Frosstbyte

"I don't have a choice" doesn't mean "I don't have a choice." It means, "You're giving me an option I dislike, but my alternative is even worse." I read that first scene to mean that Caroline's alternatives were death or lifetime imprisonment or exile and that if she agreed to do five years with the Dollhouse, she'd avoid those consequences entirely.

Again, I think you have to run with this as part of the premise. She's there because she understood what would happen to her and decided it would still be better than the alternative. I think as Echo "awakes" we'll gradually get less comfortable with what the Dollhouse does to people, even though it's the core of the show. But I wouldn't expect that it will occur in the form of "ewwww she's really being raped isn't that terrible?!?" kinds of stuff.

Edit: For clarity, I don't think the Dollhouse caused the duress. If someone is pointing a gun at you and says "do this or I will shoot you" then you don't have any choice. I think the Dollhouse was an option given by them to avoid duress coming from another source, hence why I think there is ample consent. I could find myself entirely wrong.

guy44

I disagree...I think one of the main themes of the show is consent/control over your own life, and Whedon very explicitly wants the issue of rape to be part of this. Dollhouse is all about questioning the nature of identity, willpower, control over one's life, memory, etc., and this is one (important) part of that discussion.

It's not like this is an original conceit - it's a sci-fi classic. Think Blade Runner or, if we're onto the question of identity/memory/sexual consent, Jude Law's character in A.I. I'm sure there are a million other examples people can think of.

Edit: And now that I think about it, it isn't like this is the first time Whedon has tread these waters. Think of the Season Six Buffy episode where the Trio brainwash Warren's old girlfriend and basically attempt to rape her. In Firefly, issues of consent and responsibility are brought up repeatedly for Inara, the geisha-like 'Companion,' especially in the episode Heart of Gold. Hell, even the very first Angel episode featured a brilliant metaphor for the 'casting couch' when a powerful, rich vampire lures Cordelia to his mansion with a promise to make her a star. The difference with Dollhouse is that these issues are much more central than with his other shows.

__________________
"You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

telekinetic

__________________
twisted no more

Cynthetiq

why are they looking up at his nutsack be it stamos or whedon????

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Frosstbyte

I thought last night's episode was better, again, than previously. More snappy dialogue, better use and abuse of the Active concept. I think that PA may be a little fatalistic, since even if it's not as great as other Whedon stuff, it's still better than most of the stuff on TV these days. I just hope the trend continues.

guy44, I guess my point is that there's a difference between seeing that as part of the concept of the show and trying to screw down if she's "consented to having sex with people" and/or if we should be forced to be uncomfortable with that instead of titillated. I think there is a meaningful difference with being currently uncomfortable with the notion of the Dollhouse while still going witht he show and not enjoying the ride because you're so worried about the fact that it's not showing the lack of consent in a more disturbing light.

Cynthetiq

3rd episode was interesting.

The idea that she went "off mission" or did she rides close to the very idea of what we are talking about. It really depends on the point of view and reference.

Dialogue was much better, some really good lines.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

guy44

I think I see where you're coming from. This discussion reminds me of the film Funny Games, which is basically a horror film designed entirely around the idea that the audience should be discomfited by the thought that they go to see people suffer horribly in movies for entertainment.

...FWIW, I think this ep was better than the pilot but a step down from last week's. Eliza Dushku herself is telling people that the first five episodes are more or less stand-alones designed to allow anyone to start watching (at the insistence of Fox), but that beginning in episode six Whedon's voice starts becoming much clearer and it begins to resemble his previous shows more.

__________________
"You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

Cynthetiq

Interesting that NYTimes has an article this week about something about memory and losing your identity for a short period of time.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Frosstbyte

Interesting you bring that up. I really disliked Funny Games, and I imagine that if Dollhouse tries to really drive the wedge in the same way the movie did, I'd probably start to like it less, too.

777

Hey, did anyone catch those moments at the end of the last 2 episodes?

At the end of the second one, after the head of security goes off on a rant about how people keep dieing around Echo, she slaps her shoulder the way her date taught her too.

And at the end of the 3rd, Seira has this bright smile as she eyes Echo across the room and walks toward her. Only to be shot down as Echo gives a disaproving shake of the head. What was that about?!

__________________
"I don't know that I ever wanted greatness, on its own. It seems rather like wanting to be an engineer, rather than wanting to design something - or wanting to be a writer, rather than wanting to write. It should be a by-product, not a thing in itself. Otherwise, it's just an ego trip."

Roger Zelazny

Cynthetiq

I believe that it is a nod to the fact that she is "remembering" things even after she's been wiped...

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

777

Look what I stumbled upon (no pun intended) while visiting Hulu:

Hulu Blog Dollhouse's Joss Whedon Answers Your Questions

And the video that's on the page is the first episode of Dollhouse, which I'm sure we've all seen by now.

Here's a good one:

__________________
"I don't know that I ever wanted greatness, on its own. It seems rather like wanting to be an engineer, rather than wanting to design something - or wanting to be a writer, rather than wanting to write. It should be a by-product, not a thing in itself. Otherwise, it's just an ego trip."

Roger Zelazny

Zeraph

I love Whedon. Watched the first couple episodes but it just didn't hook me. I'll check back in again with the show after a season.

Frosstbyte

I would guess you'll just miss the show, then, zeraph. Unless something crazy happens in the next few weeks, this one's probably going on a long walk off a short pier. Ratings continue to be...poor.

SecretMethod70

A painfully honest review of the latest episode by Den of Geek:

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

sadistikdreams

I'm actually not a Joss Whedon fan, mainly because I'm pissed off that Firefly got Dark Angel cancelled.

Although, it's pretty intriguing. I mean, the concept. In practice, it's kind of.... eeh. Not as satisfying as I though it'd be. But it's still a fun show. Especially when you put it after TSCC.

__________________
"Besides the noble art of getting things done, there is the noble art of leaving things undone.
The wisdom of life consists in the elimination of non-essentials."
-Lin Yutang

hearts, by d.a.

Frosstbyte

Never actually found someone who was a fan of Dark Angel. Wow. I always thought that show only stayed on for as long as it did because it starred Jessica Alba and had James Cameron throwing money at it. I would take Firefly every day of the week.

Dunno, I think that review is unfortunately pretty accurate. They need to get to the Joss episodes and fast, because it's not looking up for this latest venture of his. I'm hoping six is everything they say it is.

TSCC is another question entirely. I think it's really spectacularly subtle, but I don't think it's giving enough people what they expected and is suffering for it. The show is way creepier and more cerebral than anything else in the Terminator series. Losing your timeslot to 24 probably didn't help either. Curse Fox putting my sweet sci-fi shows on Friday night and curse them for not counting DVR towards ratings.

Reese

I liked Dark angel. Then again, I watched the entire series in a span of a week so even if there were a few disappointing episodes I soon passed them and was on to better, more memorable episodes. I just hate that it didn't get a finale.

I am still watching Dollhouse. It gives me something to watch on my DVR while BSG is recording. I really can't get into the stand alone episodes. It's like I'm watching just to see the 2 minutes of story of Helo, I mean Paul looking for the Dollhouse. We also get the tiny bits of relationship forming between the mind wiped Sierra and Echo but it's so little that I'd rather just wait for these so called good episodes that Joss and Eliza keep talking about and figure out what's going on then.

__________________
“It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

Cynthetiq

this past episode was interesting. the idea that victor is stimulated by another while in dollhouse state shows that their system is cracking or at least isn't known as to what and where the human begins and ends.

the dialogue was much better this go round too, with the man response and topher's reaction to the victor's erection was humorous. Spoiler: They other guy, I don't know why or how he showed up but I don't get why he didn't just finish it if that's his intention. There was little to nothing to stop him.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

I wish the whole series was as interesting as tonight's episode.

SecretMethod70

It's getting better, but this past episode was billed as a game-changer and it was far from that. Spoiler: And making Agent Ballard's neighbor an "active" was predictable in the worst way. The kind of predictable where you can totally see it coming but you really hope you're wrong, only to find out you're not.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

guy44

Oh, I disagree. I loved the episode. Spoiler: I like how Patton Oswald(!) destroyed Ballard's holier-than-thou persona in like two seconds, I like how Oswald displayed how the purpose behind the Dolls can be sweet and really fucking wrong at the same time, I like the action sequences, I like the twist about how Sierra's handler was raping her, I like that the fact that these people are basically constantly being raped was brought out into the open, and even though everyone already figured out that Millie was a sleeper I like how badassedly she took out the rapist guy.

And I didn't even mention the mole within the Dollhouse or Ballard losing his job or the finally excellent dialogue.

It's possible this episode isn't a game-changer, but it certainly could be.

__________________
"You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

777

Wow, they must have had extra help from the writing department, since the Jossy dialogue is in the Full Servive Station.

And the action wasn't bad this time around (Not like when we had the Gun Vs Bow face off).

__________________
"I don't know that I ever wanted greatness, on its own. It seems rather like wanting to be an engineer, rather than wanting to design something - or wanting to be a writer, rather than wanting to write. It should be a by-product, not a thing in itself. Otherwise, it's just an ego trip."

Roger Zelazny

Cynthetiq

I reminisced about Faith that last episode. It was much more fighting that Eliza was doing as Faith so it looked a bit more staged and blocked than from Buffy.

The episode was very interesting. Those that wondered just about the morality portion, it was finally addressed and in a very interesting way.

I hope that more episodes are like this in the future.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

robot_parade

I agree, the last episode whipped out the awesome in a big way.

Am I the only one who completely missed that kaylee was a sleeper doll until it happened?

guy44

Kaylee is the sweet, loving mechanic on Firefly who pines after a doctor. Mellie, on the other hand, is the sweet, loving neighbor on Dollhouse who pines after an FBI agent. You may remember Willow from Buffy seasons 1 and 2 as the sweet, loving nerd who pines after Xander. Hell, even on Angel, sweet, loving Fred pined after Angel at first. As much as I love Joss Whedon's work, he does have his archetypes.

__________________
"You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

Locobot

Spoiler:

Ballard is suspended, not yet fired. You can be sure that his involvement with the FBI isn't yet over. The mole dialogue was a feint planted by DeWitt.
Yep, episode six was pretty great; lots of storylines coming to a head, twists, and the morality of each character was brought into question. Aside from the Dolls, there isn't a character without questionable motives. As far as I know there isn't a show on right now with this level of complexity or moral ambiguity. Add in Wheadon's penchant for peppering in incredibly lascivious situations and dialogue without being explicit and I'm hooked.