04-20-2009, 03:05 PM | #121 (permalink) | |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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Everything is relative. 10 screws in 10 holes doesn't sound too bad. But how many times an hour is he scheduled to fucking do that? When I was a kid I worked on farms a lot in the summer for extra cash and $ for school clothes. Picking berries was easy enough. All you had to do was pick it off the vine and put it in a bucket or flat. But to make any money you had to fucking do that about 5,000 times a day, give or take. I also did something called "picking chickens," no it had nothing to do with jacking off. All you had to do there was take two live chickens out of a cage and put them in a larger cage. If you did that at least 800 times a day you got paid $15. You also got covered in fucking chicken shit. I know jack about working in a mine, a furniture factory or a auto plant. But I have a feeling when you say it's just 10 fucking screws there's a good chance you're down playing the amount of fucking work involved. But I don't really fucking know.
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club |
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04-20-2009, 03:18 PM | #122 (permalink) | ||
Her Jay
Location: Ontario for now....
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Absence makes the heart grow fonder Last edited by silent_jay; 04-20-2009 at 03:20 PM.. |
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04-20-2009, 03:28 PM | #123 (permalink) | |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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All I'm saying is if it's 10 screws every 30 sec all day long it might be more work then it sounds like.
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club |
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04-20-2009, 03:46 PM | #124 (permalink) | |
Her Jay
Location: Ontario for now....
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10 screws every 30 seconds would be a dream to me, being 3600ft or more underground and breathing that shitty air and all the dust and other shit diesel fumes, moist air, fuck 10 screws every 30 seconds would be a dream.
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Absence makes the heart grow fonder |
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04-20-2009, 03:52 PM | #125 (permalink) | |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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And yes, breathing crappy air at 3600ft underground doesn't sound like fun either. But I wouldn't be too quick to judge another persons job without having done it myself.
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club Last edited by Tully Mars; 04-20-2009 at 03:59 PM.. |
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04-20-2009, 05:14 PM | #126 (permalink) | ||
Her Jay
Location: Ontario for now....
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Absence makes the heart grow fonder |
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04-22-2009, 03:59 PM | #127 (permalink) | |
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
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04-23-2009, 01:59 PM | #128 (permalink) | |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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04-23-2009, 02:28 PM | #129 (permalink) |
Wise-ass Latino
Location: Pretoria (Tshwane), RSA
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Being a government employee, I can assure you that we don't always have it better than the private sector. Compared to my previous private sector job, my medical benefits were better (company paid all premiums, and the deductible and copays were a lot lower), retirement benefits were better (gov't doesn't offer up stock options that would automatically vest after a fixed period), and the paycheck was better. About the only advantage my government job has is job security, but even that's not a guarantee.
With that said, there's a general assumption here that if if the UAW made significant concessions then GM and Chrysler would be profitable again. That is simply not true. UAW workers could offer to work for free and GM/Chrysler would still be in the same financial bind. Their problem isn't the UAW, their problem is that the Cobalt isn't a car worth considering against the Civic or Corolla, much less the Focus. Their problem is that they didn't direct their engineering talents that brought them the Silverado and Surburban over to the Impala. Their problem is that they turned Saturn from the best idea GM could've ever came up with into just another ho-hum brand (they don't even build Saturns at their Spring Hill, TN plant anymore). Their problem is that when Chrysler was acquired by Daimler, they forced out the team of designers and engineers who brought forth the Neon and Avenger---cars that were rough around the edges to be sure, but were as distinctive to the automotive landscape back then as the Taurus was back in 1986. The problem is that Chrysler replaced them with unattractive and uninspiring cars like the Caliber, Avenger, and Crossfire. The problem is that somebody thought it was a good idea to make a Jeep that is incapable of travelling off road (Compass). The problem is that they failed to follow up on the rare success that the 300C/Charger had become. 3/4th of their problem stems from a flawed culture and an inept corporate governance that fostered it. Now it's obvious that the UAW's aggresssion in negotiation tactics has come back to bite them, but to pin their woes on the UAW is to find a scapegoat and miss the real troubles of what ails GM and Chrysler.
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Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer. -From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator |
05-02-2009, 04:18 AM | #130 (permalink) |
Psycho
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I just have a couple of points that I would like to question:
1) Why is the union brought to the board , and not management? Doesn't mgm't oversee ops? The workers just do the job they are paid to do. I hate that Pontiac will no longer be around - I owned 2 Firebirds, and my wife owns a GrandAm. Which leads to - 2) WTF w/U.S. technology - my wife has a 1999 GrandAm, 59,000 miles and the AC needs to be replaced ($900). I have a 1998 Toyota Corolla, 101,000+ mile - the AC runs great. |
05-03-2009, 07:15 PM | #131 (permalink) |
Wehret Den Anfängen!
Location: Ontario, Canada
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To be fair, QM, I think if Ford/Chrysler had free labor, and didn't have to pay for health benefits, and didn't have to pay for retired workers, they would be "in the black".
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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest. |
05-03-2009, 07:57 PM | #132 (permalink) | |
WHEEEE! Whee! Whee! WHEEEE!
Location: Southern Illinois
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My father has been in a wheelchair for nearly thirty years as a result of an injury he sustained working at a strip mine. Although industrial safety standards are improving all the time, accidents do happen, and when you work in an environment of heavy machinery, those accidents generally have greater consequences than a paper cut. Didn't make more than $28 an hour? Should've joined a union, or your union negotiator sucked. And "unskilled labor?" Without unskilled labor you would have nothing, zero, nada, unless you're growing your own food, making your own clothes, refining your own gas, etc., etc. "Unskilled labor" is essential for you being able to live like you do today. But they're just peons, right? Fuck 'em. Fuck the selfish bastards for trying to make a living. You can get by without them. Just wave a magic fucking wand, and all your basic needs will be provided for, and those crybaby peons can take a flying leap.
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05-04-2009, 06:51 AM | #133 (permalink) |
Addict
Location: Spring, Texas
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I think it is amazing some of the different viewpoints we are seeing here. From who has a harder job, to who makes a crappy car/truck, and the unions at fault/not at fault for the labour force problems. For every person who says they have an American designed car that breaks all the time, and a foreign car that is perfect, I can show you a person who has a foreign car that breaks all the time, but their American designed car has no problems. It all depends on who you ask. Also for those who think that the designs suck, or are ugly, if everyone liked the same thing, we would only HAVE one manufacturer. Not everyone likes the same thing everyone else does. Personally I think Ford trucks are ugly in design, inside and out, while I have a friend that says they are the best looking truck he has ever seen. So trying to base a company's failure based on what a car LOOKS like, is heading in the wrong direction.
Jobs vary a lot in their risk and payout. When someone says their job is high risk, I figure if there are moving parts and machinery, then yea, it is a risk job. Also unless things have changed a lot, these workers at the assembly plants rotate out the jobs that they do on a regular basis. He/She may be running 10 screws into 10 holes this week, and then next week they may be lowering the bodies onto the frames. ANYONE can sit outside and say that someone else's job is "low skilled" or "not dangerous", but until one actually WORKS in that field, one shouldn't be quick to judge. While I do agree that the unions in many cases could concede a bit more, I don't think that the labourers should be forced to take TOO big of a pay cut. I get people all the time saying that MY job is easy, and they can't believe how I could make the money I do, but then I ask them, can YOU sit there in front of a car and figure out exactly why your turns signals flash right when you turn them on left? or why their engine runs slightly off? It is all a matter of perspective.
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"It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison |
05-04-2009, 02:01 PM | #134 (permalink) | |
Wise-ass Latino
Location: Pretoria (Tshwane), RSA
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Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer. -From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator |
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05-24-2009, 12:31 PM | #135 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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I haven't commented on this thread yet, but it keeps coming back to me in my head.
There is clearly a number of problems in the North American industry that aren't just a result of the recession. You want my opinion? To fix the North American industry, you'd have to overhaul the business operations on all levels (but basically on operations levels). If you compare the manufacturing process of, say, Japanese cars to North American cars, you'd see a big difference even in one aspect: defaults. If they find a fault in the manufacturing line, many in the Japanese operations shut the whole line down until the process is fixed. Most of the workers have the power to shut down the line at anytime. Comparatively, North American practices will find the default and pull it out for analysis while the line keeps running....yes, they quite possibly keep running the same default...until they know what to do to fix it. They place production over perfection. (Recalls anyone?) Several North American operators have sent people to Japanese operations to learn from them, and yet they haven't seemed to learn much. Now they're paying the price. It's not just what you make; it's also how you make it. This is a hard lesson Harley Davidson learned years ago back when it nearly dropped off the face of the earth from the onslaught of the better-made Japanese brands. You either learn lessons from your more successful competitors, or you die. Take your pick. In other news, see all those dealerships they're closing? Ouch.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 05-24-2009 at 12:33 PM.. |
05-29-2009, 01:35 PM | #136 (permalink) | |
Upright
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I don't think anyone is advocating slave labour. The issue is the amount of control that unions exert, and the extent that they push just because they can. You might not think $28/hour is a lot, but that's $58K/year - much higher than average. I'm a skilled worker as a programmer (not to be arrogant) with an education I (mostly) payed for, and I only make about $8k more than that. I rarely do the same thing twice. Yes risk should be rewarded, and on-the-job injuries should be paid for by the companies that led to them, but does Joe-highschool-dropout deserve to earn as much as someone who earned a masters and has rare/diverse skills to use, just because he works with heavy machinery around instead of the local Taco Bell? In many cases, the same person could do either. |
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05-29-2009, 01:55 PM | #137 (permalink) |
Pickles
Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)
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I would let the companies die. If a business operates so deep in the red it SHOULD go under. People will still want cars so they'll get them from someplace else.
If people are upset about losing their jobs then they can go knock on the doors of the private jets of the rich executives and ask them where all the money went. Who says this will be a bad thing? Without these big car companies lobbying against different technology and alternate forms of transportation we may actually see some progress in these areas. Perhaps these companies can make use of some of the patents they've got stored up like cars that run on water and some such stuff like that there. All of the things that would exist today if the oil and car companies hadn't suppressed them.
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06-02-2009, 06:07 AM | #138 (permalink) | |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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well, it's been a few months since i posted anything to this thread and it's kinda interesting to have a look through it again.
i think that most of the arguments i mustered earlier are correct, but the situation's evolved so now things look a bit more--um---clear, if not coherent. momento mori: a snapshot of the state of things the day after gm's bankruptcy was announced (tailored for american domestic consumption version): Quote:
basically, unless something changes in the overall approach to this from the obama administration, the scenario asu outlined above on this page seems to me the likely outcome. hemmed in by the reactionary and counter-productive economic metaphysics of the right, unwilling or unable to take on nationalization as a serious, sustained matter the goal of which is to balance a the gm as a corporate entity in profit-generating terms against the social costs of allowing it to fail--not to mention the symbolic costs.... people act as though nationalization of a major automobile manufacturer is some new step. france nationalized renault directly after world war 2 basically as punishment for louis renault's excessive enthusiasm for the german occupation...renault has operated as a pretty profitable company since, undergoing a series of mutations (merging with volvo, the deterritorialization of production from a nation-state viewpoint, symbolized by the shutter of the main renault factory in boulonge-billancourt--which still sits there, apparently, as the state can't quite figure out which type of amusement complex to put there--and so it goes, the papering over the the past. americans have no monopoly)... there's all kind of absurd notions about of the types of interaction between state and company in this context. the press continues to filter opinion through the outmoded and dysfunctional lens of neoliberalism, still takes seriously the ridiculous objections of the right that "the state shouldn't interfere in the process of Natural Selection"..... i maintain that this factor, the way infotainment is filtered, plays into a political climate in which the right still matters, and that this climate is in fact debilitating. but obama is no social-democrat, sadly---so i do not have a sense of what will follow from this move to partially nationalize general motors. meanwhile, notice how the american press is down playing what this means historically. what do you think it means? how important a symbolic moment are we passing through? cyncial aside: remember the centrality of panic management. if you think we're not still in a tightly controlled press environment, you're dreaming. that the dominant rhetoric has changed doesn't mean that the systems of infotainment management have. that you might like the rhetoric doesn't mean that therefore the context is suddenly free of top-down constraints. don't be chumped the way conservatives were under cowboy george.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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06-02-2009, 06:13 AM | #139 (permalink) | |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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And a bit about Canada's role (Feds and Ontario gov't...well, Canadian taxpayers as shareholders):
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 06-02-2009 at 06:15 AM.. |
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06-02-2009, 06:54 AM | #140 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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FT.com / Companies / Automobiles - Interactive: GM?s fall from grace
this takes you to an interactive timeline that accounts in general terms for the collapse of GM. you may have to subscribe to see it: there's a free option (a restricted number of articles every 30 days)...but maybe it's a free feature. hard to say.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
06-08-2009, 04:01 PM | #141 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: NYC
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Just figured I'd post this:
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This seemed noteworthy to me because it's the first speed bump the govt has hit in the Chrysler Chapter 11. I don't know what SCOTUS will do, obviously. I just thought it interesting that Ginsburg didn't think this one was easy; if she did, she wouldn't have granted the interim stay. |
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11-16-2009, 06:26 AM | #142 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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GM to repay US$1.2-billion government loans
Some contrasts here to the "Old GM" and the "New GM." Read the article for some performance and balance sheet numbers. GM's market share is up, and its debt level is a fraction of what it was before bankruptcy protection. And this includes the government loans from both the U.S. and Canada, which it plans to start repaying with a billion-dollar payment next month. It's already repaid some cash to the German government regarding Opel, and it hopes to pay the balance of that US$1.3-billion-dollar debt by the end of the month. GM's red ink is letting up it appears.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
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