My Pumpkin Designs... STOLEN! - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Mister Coaster · 08-19-2007, 06:01 AM

This is not meant as a shameless plug, because this is a real situation where a lot of my designs, reperesenting countless hours of work, have been hijacked. Here is the situation, bear with me....

As many of you know, I have a website featuring pumpkin carving designs available for download. It's super cheap to join (as low as $2) and it's not really meant to be a money maker. I started it mostly because I enjoyed doing it and I wanted to see more of my designs carved, because I could never do them all myself. The fact that it has been a success really blows me away.

The other day some guy sends me a message asking me to exchange links, he says he is a pumpkin carver and he thought it would be a good link exchange for both of us. His site sells artificial pumpkins with pre-carved designs. He also mentions that he used a few of my designs for his available carvings and he hopes I don't mind. Well I checked out the site, and by "a few" of my designs, he means "almost all" of them. He simply hijacked 2/3 to 3/4 of my designs and put them up on his site as designs that are available for him to carve. But its not only me, it's a few other designers that he is ripping off too. In fact, NONE of the designs he offers to carve were actually designed by him, 100% of his carvings were designed by others.

Well, I told him that I didn't like what he was doing and said that I'd help him out by allowing him to use 10 designs, with a message stating that they were in fact mine and not his. Other designers simply told him no and requested that he remove their patterns from his site. Well, the asshole decided to keep all the designs up on his site. Not only that, he thinks WE are the assholes for not allowing him to do this. Now, I suppose my site doesnt specifically state that my patterns cannot be reused, redistributed or resold, but when I started it I never thought some jackass would be attempting to make money from my hard work.

It gets better... He sent me and another designer a threatening e-mail stating that he will blow the whistle to Disney, Marvel, Lucasarts and all the other companies that have copyrighted charictors, of which we have created carving patterns. If we try to block him from using our patterns, he'll try to shut us down. This is a real threat because 2 other pumpkin pattern sites were shut down or severely crippled by this exact thing.

This whole thing has literally given me a headache and a pain in the neck. If we fight for what is right, we face the reality that we'll have to remove 80% of our designs. At least we have the talent and ability to create 100% original patterns, our sites will survive, but would be crippled. On the other hand, it's doubtful that this guy will seriously impact our business because he's not actually reselling the patterns, just using them in a way they were not intended.

I'll list the sites involved here so you can see the blatent theft for yourself, if mods see fit to delete these, then go ahead and accept my apologies

My site: www.jamminpumpkins.com (most of the designs are in the members section, but you can read the list of titles to compare)
The ripoff artist's site www.creepycarvings.com (currently down as he makes "changes")
Zombie Pumpkins: www.zombiepumpkins.com (another designer who is being ripped off, and whom I have an enormous amount of respect for)

Anyone have any advise?

mtsgsd · 08-19-2007, 07:31 AM

Sounds like you are violating copyright just as much as he is, and with just as much respect. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but you aren't willing to take down the copyrighted material that you acknowledge isn't yours, then why should he?

Mister Coaster · 08-19-2007, 09:12 AM

I see that point, but none of the "big boys" have contacted me about it. If I was ever contacted by Marvel, I'd have to take those down.

The difference is I actually drew the patterns, while its true that the charictors are copyrighted, I created their image on my own. When Marvel or disney draws a charictor, it isn't a pumpkin pattern, it takes me time, planning and years of doing it to turn a picture into something that will work as a pumpkin pattern. Also, there are thousands of artists worldwide that draw images of copyrighted charictors and sell prints of them. Just look on Deviant Art. This dude is literally taking my exact patterns as I draw them and using them to profit. Also, I'm not a multi million dollar making company like LucasArts, Marvel or Disney.

ngdawg · 08-19-2007, 03:06 PM

He might be making 'changes' because he was told to by his lawyer.
On the other hand, you do state that for a nominal donation and membership, one can have access to all your designs. You do not say that the material is only available for members' usage and that any attempt to resell would be met with legal means. Demand he take them off his site or you will do just that.
Should you pursue legal action, it would, as I understand it, go by date of design/website; proof that you had the designs long before he got hold of them.
I'd only display originals and keep any material based on copyrighted characters off the site and state that only by emailing you for info would those be accessed. But, unlike what he is doing, it's apparent you are not in it for profit, so I don't think the biggies would go after you.

Mister Coaster · 08-20-2007, 06:39 AM

Rather than duke it out over the copyright thing, I think I'm simply going to offer my designs carved on fake pumpkins, exactly the same thing as him, but undercut his prices. Also, all other people in the existing online carving community (as small of a niche as it is) are on my side of this. I think the online designers are going to band together in some way to put a stop to this kind of outright theft, or at least force the jackass out of business in another way.

Of course then he might still blow the whistle on us. Then there is the chance that the big boys simply won't care, and he'll just be a little dog barking, with no bite. After all, HE isn't the one that can sue, he has to convince them to go after me, it may not even be worth their time.

I'll come out of this one way or another, but this dude's attitude via e-mails that we are trading just makes my blood boil. He honestly sees nothing wrong with what he's doing.

shakran · 08-20-2007, 08:23 AM

And as others have pointed out, why should he, when you're so willing to steal others' copyrighted work?

Mister Coaster · 08-20-2007, 09:03 AM

The difference is, I start with a blank page and an idea. I use images of charictors as reference, but I create a pattern in their likeness. If you get down to brass tacks, I'm guilty, but at least I create a new piece of art with each pattern I create, not simply take something someone else has done and resell it.

Jinn · 08-20-2007, 09:10 AM

Quote:

The standard for copyright infringement is "substantially similar" artistic expression. "Substantial similarity" is measured by whether a normal observer would recognize the second work as a copy of (or derived from) the original. For cartoon characters, courts consider not only the visual resemblance but also narrative aspects of a character, such as their personalities, behaviors, biographies, and story lines

You're both in technical copyright infringement territory, but I think you have a right to pursue him, just as Disney, Marvel have a right to pursue you. Just because you've done something illegal does not make what he's done legal.

ngdawg · 08-20-2007, 10:32 AM

As long as Mister Coaster does not profit from his work, he might be in some sort of copyright issue, but the biggies won't do much. On the other hand, Mr. Jackass is in it for profit, so the carver's community can sue.
One of the future things they can do is really simple-use the copyright symbol on every original image they put on their sites. The downloads can be created without them or with them in an inconspicuous part.
Then put the disclaimer "All creations are original copyrighted material. Any unauthorized use of this material is forbidden." And I'd do it before his site goes back up.

Midnight · 08-20-2007, 12:13 PM

Coaster -

Best advice I can give you is to create your own designs. looking at both of your sites ( yours and the other artist being "ripped off") the other artist has more of his/her own designs (at least designs COMPLETELY unrecognizable to me as anything I've seen before) than you do. Yes, I understand youare saying that you are creating your designs BASED on marvel comic chars or whatnot, but when it comes down to it, if jane and joe average can look at it and say "thats so and so from such and such comic/movie etc" then if you are making a profit from selling the design to create the same pattern, YOU are in violation of the copyright on the orig work by marvel etc, and one of the reasons this ass was able to "steal" your work is because he was quite right in the assumption that you could do NOTHING about it because you are in fact, guilty of copyright infringement yourself.

I've seen tons of pumpkin designs online like yours, and this other designers. they get away with having designs of the popular comic characters, disney chars and movie icons very easily - they are FREE. these sites are in to to get people to buy their other products, ie: strobe lights, battery powered light sources, carving tools, display stands and so on for the resulting jack o lanterns, or other halloween items in general and toss in the carving patterns free of charge with a purchase from the site.

I wish you well in this, but your best bet is to do only your own designs, or move into a product realm and give away your designs free of charge.

Mister Coaster · 08-20-2007, 12:44 PM

Even if others give away patterns for free, they are still just as in violation of copyright infringement as I am. Unless it's the owner of the copyright giving it away with purchase of something, it's the same thing.

All in all, I never expected this much backlash - from either direction, be it in my favor or against me. All I know is that people like patterns based on copyrighted charictors. Why? Because they already know and like them. There is a market for these things and so far Disney is the only ones that have offered carving patterns with their charictors on them, and IMO, the ones created by myself and others like me are better than the ones Disney themselves are selling.

I started doing these designs years ago because it was fun. After the overwhelming feedback being "Dude, you should start your own website." I did just that, because it was fun. Suddenly it's not as much fun anymore.

ngdawg · 08-20-2007, 01:12 PM

Here's a pretty good summary of myths about copyrighting material:

Quote:

The "fair use" exemption to (U.S.) copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's vital so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to appropriate other people's.

Source

Mister Coaster, as he uses other images, may very well be within the 'fair use exemption' of the images in that they are his interpretation. On the other hand, the asshat is not as he is using Mr. Coaster's direct designs and using them as his own for profit.
Go get'em, Tiger!

ratbastid · 08-20-2007, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

Rather than duke it out over the copyright thing, I think I'm simply going to offer my designs carved on fake pumpkins, exactly the same thing as him, but undercut his prices.

Wow, well that's a HUGE business plan shift to make just out of spite. Suddenly you've got to worry about sourcing fake pumpkins, your labor to cut them, and your shipping to get them delivered.

That's a vastly different level of investment than your passive-income approach, where occasionally $2 shows up in your PayPal... You sure you're really ready to bite off that much hands-on labor in a field where you're (by definition) out to compete on price and therefore entertaining sales with lowered margin?

Anxst · 08-20-2007, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

Here's a pretty good summary of myths about copyrighting material:

Source

Mister Coaster, as he uses other images, may very well be within the 'fair use exemption' of the images in that they are his interpretation. On the other hand, the asshat is not as he is using Mr. Coaster's direct designs and using them as his own for profit.
Go get'em, Tiger!

Sadly, Fair Use laws in general hinge on what use the copyrighted material is being used for. In this instance, Mister Coaster is on very shaky ground, as he is not using the images to parody, educate, comment, research, or report on the characters in use. In general, that means that he does not fall under fair use.

If any of the companies he's using images from have an issue with it, their first step with small time firms (regular citizens) is to ask them to stop. They usually ask in a nice but businesslike manner. Usually.

Mister Coaster · 08-21-2007, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Wow, well that's a HUGE business plan shift to make just out of spite. Suddenly you've got to worry about sourcing fake pumpkins, your labor to cut them, and your shipping to get them delivered.

Done, done and done. I actually will be going into partnership with another designer who already does this. He and his staff will do all the work, and even give me a kickback for every design of mine they sell. It's a win-win.

ratbastid · 08-21-2007, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

Done, done and done. I actually will be going into partnership with another designer who already does this. He and his staff will do all the work, and even give me a kickback for every design of mine they sell. It's a win-win.

Hey, cool! Good for you!

Anxst · 08-21-2007, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

Done, done and done. I actually will be going into partnership with another designer who already does this. He and his staff will do all the work, and even give me a kickback for every design of mine they sell. It's a win-win.

Excellent work! I hope everything goes well for you.

Redlemon · 08-22-2007, 07:00 AM

I take no sides in this discussion, especially since it is over. I just wanted to note that the thread title works both for Mister Coaster's original post, as well as for the copyright criticism posts.

Cynthetiq · 08-22-2007, 12:45 PM

damn... $55 a stencil for what you asked for $2.... it's like he's ready to sell just a couple and then run for the hills.

Willravel · 08-22-2007, 12:52 PM

Your obvious choice is to bomb his home or place of business.

Or you can just let it slide. You're the creative one, and I get the feeling that you'll be able to come up with more.

analog · 08-26-2007, 09:51 PM

You're in no way protected by copyright "fair use", and are guilty of the exact same thing as you're accusing him of... except that you believe what you're doing is ok because you're stealing from giant companies rather than another individual. Even saying "if they contacted me, I'd take it down" doesn't count for anything because you're already making money off of your designs.

So really, you're pissed at him for stealing what you've already stolen.

And "fair use" does not work for "artistic expression", only for "commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education" and that's it. Also as has been pointed out, doing it for free (which isn't what you're doing anyway, you are making money from them) doesn't exempt you from violating copyright.

Mister Coaster · 08-27-2007, 09:25 AM

analog: good point, I addressed this in post #3 of this topic... I at least draw my own patterns based on charictors. He flat out took what I already drew and is using them.

I have decided not to fight this guy, he's not worth my time.

08-19-2007, 06:01 AM	#1 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	My Pumpkin Designs... STOLEN! This is not meant as a shameless plug, because this is a real situation where a lot of my designs, reperesenting countless hours of work, have been hijacked. Here is the situation, bear with me.... As many of you know, I have a website featuring pumpkin carving designs available for download. It's super cheap to join (as low as $2) and it's not really meant to be a money maker. I started it mostly because I enjoyed doing it and I wanted to see more of my designs carved, because I could never do them all myself. The fact that it has been a success really blows me away. The other day some guy sends me a message asking me to exchange links, he says he is a pumpkin carver and he thought it would be a good link exchange for both of us. His site sells artificial pumpkins with pre-carved designs. He also mentions that he used a few of my designs for his available carvings and he hopes I don't mind. Well I checked out the site, and by "a few" of my designs, he means "almost all" of them. He simply hijacked 2/3 to 3/4 of my designs and put them up on his site as designs that are available for him to carve. But its not only me, it's a few other designers that he is ripping off too. In fact, NONE of the designs he offers to carve were actually designed by him, 100% of his carvings were designed by others. Well, I told him that I didn't like what he was doing and said that I'd help him out by allowing him to use 10 designs, with a message stating that they were in fact mine and not his. Other designers simply told him no and requested that he remove their patterns from his site. Well, the asshole decided to keep all the designs up on his site. Not only that, he thinks WE are the assholes for not allowing him to do this. Now, I suppose my site doesnt specifically state that my patterns cannot be reused, redistributed or resold, but when I started it I never thought some jackass would be attempting to make money from my hard work. It gets better... He sent me and another designer a threatening e-mail stating that he will blow the whistle to Disney, Marvel, Lucasarts and all the other companies that have copyrighted charictors, of which we have created carving patterns. If we try to block him from using our patterns, he'll try to shut us down. This is a real threat because 2 other pumpkin pattern sites were shut down or severely crippled by this exact thing. This whole thing has literally given me a headache and a pain in the neck. If we fight for what is right, we face the reality that we'll have to remove 80% of our designs. At least we have the talent and ability to create 100% original patterns, our sites will survive, but would be crippled. On the other hand, it's doubtful that this guy will seriously impact our business because he's not actually reselling the patterns, just using them in a way they were not intended. I'll list the sites involved here so you can see the blatent theft for yourself, if mods see fit to delete these, then go ahead and accept my apologies My site: www.jamminpumpkins.com (most of the designs are in the members section, but you can read the list of titles to compare) The ripoff artist's site www.creepycarvings.com (currently down as he makes "changes") Zombie Pumpkins: www.zombiepumpkins.com (another designer who is being ripped off, and whom I have an enormous amount of respect for) Anyone have any advise? __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

08-19-2007, 09:12 AM	#3 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	I see that point, but none of the "big boys" have contacted me about it. If I was ever contacted by Marvel, I'd have to take those down. The difference is I actually drew the patterns, while its true that the charictors are copyrighted, I created their image on my own. When Marvel or disney draws a charictor, it isn't a pumpkin pattern, it takes me time, planning and years of doing it to turn a picture into something that will work as a pumpkin pattern. Also, there are thousands of artists worldwide that draw images of copyrighted charictors and sell prints of them. Just look on Deviant Art. This dude is literally taking my exact patterns as I draw them and using them to profit. Also, I'm not a multi million dollar making company like LucasArts, Marvel or Disney. __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

08-19-2007, 03:06 PM	#4 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	He might be making 'changes' because he was told to by his lawyer. On the other hand, you do state that for a nominal donation and membership, one can have access to all your designs. You do not say that the material is only available for members' usage and that any attempt to resell would be met with legal means. Demand he take them off his site or you will do just that. Should you pursue legal action, it would, as I understand it, go by date of design/website; proof that you had the designs long before he got hold of them. I'd only display originals and keep any material based on copyrighted characters off the site and state that only by emailing you for info would those be accessed. But, unlike what he is doing, it's apparent you are not in it for profit, so I don't think the biggies would go after you. __________________ Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

08-20-2007, 06:39 AM	#5 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	Rather than duke it out over the copyright thing, I think I'm simply going to offer my designs carved on fake pumpkins, exactly the same thing as him, but undercut his prices. Also, all other people in the existing online carving community (as small of a niche as it is) are on my side of this. I think the online designers are going to band together in some way to put a stop to this kind of outright theft, or at least force the jackass out of business in another way. Of course then he might still blow the whistle on us. Then there is the chance that the big boys simply won't care, and he'll just be a little dog barking, with no bite. After all, HE isn't the one that can sue, he has to convince them to go after me, it may not even be worth their time. I'll come out of this one way or another, but this dude's attitude via e-mails that we are trading just makes my blood boil. He honestly sees nothing wrong with what he's doing. __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

08-20-2007, 09:03 AM	#7 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	The difference is, I start with a blank page and an idea. I use images of charictors as reference, but I create a pattern in their likeness. If you get down to brass tacks, I'm guilty, but at least I create a new piece of art with each pattern I create, not simply take something someone else has done and resell it. __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

08-19-2007, 07:31 AM	#2 (permalink)
mtsgsd Addict Location: Wisconsin, USA	Sounds like you are violating copyright just as much as he is, and with just as much respect. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but you aren't willing to take down the copyrighted material that you acknowledge isn't yours, then why should he?

08-20-2007, 08:23 AM	#6 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	And as others have pointed out, why should he, when you're so willing to steal others' copyrighted work?

08-20-2007, 10:32 AM	#9 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	As long as Mister Coaster does not profit from his work, he might be in some sort of copyright issue, but the biggies won't do much. On the other hand, Mr. Jackass is in it for profit, so the carver's community can sue. One of the future things they can do is really simple-use the copyright symbol on every original image they put on their sites. The downloads can be created without them or with them in an inconspicuous part. Then put the disclaimer "All creations are original copyrighted material. Any unauthorized use of this material is forbidden." And I'd do it before his site goes back up. __________________ Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

08-20-2007, 12:13 PM	#10 (permalink)
Midnight Banned Location: Chicago's western burbs	Coaster - Best advice I can give you is to create your own designs. looking at both of your sites ( yours and the other artist being "ripped off") the other artist has more of his/her own designs (at least designs COMPLETELY unrecognizable to me as anything I've seen before) than you do. Yes, I understand youare saying that you are creating your designs BASED on marvel comic chars or whatnot, but when it comes down to it, if jane and joe average can look at it and say "thats so and so from such and such comic/movie etc" then if you are making a profit from selling the design to create the same pattern, YOU are in violation of the copyright on the orig work by marvel etc, and one of the reasons this ass was able to "steal" your work is because he was quite right in the assumption that you could do NOTHING about it because you are in fact, guilty of copyright infringement yourself. I've seen tons of pumpkin designs online like yours, and this other designers. they get away with having designs of the popular comic characters, disney chars and movie icons very easily - they are FREE. these sites are in to to get people to buy their other products, ie: strobe lights, battery powered light sources, carving tools, display stands and so on for the resulting jack o lanterns, or other halloween items in general and toss in the carving patterns free of charge with a purchase from the site. I wish you well in this, but your best bet is to do only your own designs, or move into a product realm and give away your designs free of charge.

08-20-2007, 12:44 PM	#11 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	Even if others give away patterns for free, they are still just as in violation of copyright infringement as I am. Unless it's the owner of the copyright giving it away with purchase of something, it's the same thing. All in all, I never expected this much backlash - from either direction, be it in my favor or against me. All I know is that people like patterns based on copyrighted charictors. Why? Because they already know and like them. There is a market for these things and so far Disney is the only ones that have offered carving patterns with their charictors on them, and IMO, the ones created by myself and others like me are better than the ones Disney themselves are selling. I started doing these designs years ago because it was fun. After the overwhelming feedback being "Dude, you should start your own website." I did just that, because it was fun. Suddenly it's not as much fun anymore. __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

08-22-2007, 07:00 AM	#18 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	I take no sides in this discussion, especially since it is over. I just wanted to note that the thread title works both for Mister Coaster's original post, as well as for the copyright criticism posts. __________________ I can't read your signature. Sorry.

08-22-2007, 12:45 PM	#19 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	damn... $55 a stencil for what you asked for $2.... it's like he's ready to sell just a couple and then run for the hills. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

08-22-2007, 12:52 PM	#20 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Your obvious choice is to bomb his home or place of business. Or you can just let it slide. You're the creative one, and I get the feeling that you'll be able to come up with more.

08-26-2007, 09:51 PM	#21 (permalink)
analog Banned	You're in no way protected by copyright "fair use", and are guilty of the exact same thing as you're accusing him of... except that you believe what you're doing is ok because you're stealing from giant companies rather than another individual. Even saying "if they contacted me, I'd take it down" doesn't count for anything because you're already making money off of your designs. So really, you're pissed at him for stealing what you've already stolen. And "fair use" does not work for "artistic expression", only for "commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education" and that's it. Also as has been pointed out, doing it for free (which isn't what you're doing anyway, you are making money from them) doesn't exempt you from violating copyright.

08-27-2007, 09:25 AM	#22 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	analog: good point, I addressed this in post #3 of this topic... I at least draw my own patterns based on charictors. He flat out took what I already drew and is using them. I have decided not to fight this guy, he's not worth my time. __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!