Brooke

- I admit to leaving this very broad, but it has been a constant bother to my mind. I wonder - what is the role of woman with respect to man?
I have heard these opinions.

Companion
Servant
Intellectual Better
Intellectual punching bag
Baby Breeder
Nurturers of Civilization

Seems that the opinions swing from one side to another. Man hating feminist to Bible thumping submissive. What do women truly think about their roles in relation to men?

__________________
And so its over
Your fantasy life is finally at an end
And the world above is still a brutal place
And the story will start again

lurkette

Why do we need to define ourselves in relation to men? I think it's much more productive to define oneself in relation to oneself as an individual, and to others as individuals, rather than defining yourself as part of a group set opposite another group. These kinds of definitions - the ones you list above - are inherently limiting, whether they're positive or negative.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

astrahl

I agree with lurkette. We are not to be defined compared to men, nor they to us. Yout role is what you make it. If you want to be submissive, be submissive. If you want to dominant, dominate.
I found my special guy by flying my own way, which happens to be, strong, well-educated, ambitious and giving about as much as I take...he kept up and we've been married for better than 5 years now.

Brooke

but we do - even if it is on the individual level. We define ourselves in realtion to everything.

but the universe and the number 42 is not what I am out to tackle.

rather - rephrase....when a man and a woman have a relationship together - what are the proper boundaries according to society? society is different fromwhen my parents were young. outside of the individual - where would today's society see the ideal couple in realtion to eachother?

__________________
And so its over
Your fantasy life is finally at an end
And the world above is still a brutal place
And the story will start again

Sugar&Spice

How about as equals? That is where I see myself in relation to my significant other.

__________________
-Speak your mind even if your voice shakes

ColonelSpecial

I think that the boundries have to be set by the two people in the relationship. Look at homosexual couples; many live in a society where their love cannot be expressed (a few have found a local society to accept them). But should this stop the couple? I don't think it should.

__________________
"Mommy, the presidents are squishing me!"

"Using the pull out method of contraceptive is like saying I won't use a seat belt, I'll just jump out of the car before it hits that tree."

Sara

little_tippler

Role? Why must we have a role? There is no role, you just take each day as it comes, and you meet some guy and you get on and you try to make it work and life goes on and then you die...that's it and it's enough to get your head around for one lifetime.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

inharmony

I agree with lurkette on this. And also why should society dictate what the 'ideal' couple should be. Sometimes I wonder if society plays too big a role in how we determine ourselves as individuals or couples. I agree it will, however, play a part whether we want it to or not. Find yourself first then your relationship with your s.o. will simply fall into place.

__________________
"You can't shake hands with a clenched fist."
Ghandi

"Things do not change: We change"
Henry David Thoreau

KinkyKiwi

hmmm..i would love to agree with lurkette on this but i think that there will always be "roles" and that everything we do defines "us". In relation to men, I think that most men will probably always define us as the weaker sex. I think we make our "roles" or define them at least by how we react to that. I'm fine with men thinking i'm weak and fragile..at least in the physical sense. It makes my life easier..and in most cases its true. Maybe that makes me a feminine dolt

__________________
Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite.

lurkette

Yeah, but that (defining yourself in relation to other individuals) wasn't the question. That's completely different, and in fact what I was arguing for. I define myself very differently in relation to different men, and even to the same man in different situations. With ratbastid, we are partners. However, we have different roles. I'm analytic and organized so I do the bills and parcel out tasks. He's more emotionally stable than I am so he manages the "counseling" aspect of our relationship. My neighbor Lee knows a lot about cars, so in comparison to him I am less mechanically inclined. My neighbor Jon is really NOT mechanically inclined, so he often asks for help with handiwork stuff. Etc., etc.

Gotta say, who cares what the proper boundaries are according to society? It varies from society to society and from region to region within the same society, and from say, religion to religion in the same region. (Ask the Baptists and the Unitarians who have churches across the street a mile from my house and you will get two very different answers.) And society is not in my relationship with me - they don't know my skills, my talents, my husbands skills and talents. Any judgment about how "ideal" our relationship is would be arbitrary and meaningless.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Livia Regina

It depends on the people in the relationship. You should not define yourself in relation to him because he is a man and you are a woman. You should define yourself in relation to him because you are Brooke and he is Sam or Tom or whoever. You probably are his equal in somethings and his superior in others but that is because you are individuals, not man and woman.
Who cares what society thinks? Society is a lot more fragmented now than it was when your parents were growing up. You'll find parts of society that will accept you and parts that wont. As long as the people who are important to you accept you, what's the problem?
It was a man who said that man is the head of the woman and he wasn't married.

Epiphanies

What a wonderful topic. I'm new to this board and immediately siezed on this thread--very refreshing. Without quoting everyone's preceeding posts, many good points were made. Yes, our society has changed considerably since 1950 in terms of the norms for man/woman relationships; changed for the better in some respects, and in others for the worse. For instance, a working wife is no longer abnormal , however a woman dominating her husband is now acceptable . If we're looking to define man/woman roles as they relate to marriage, then I propse that marriage be equated to a contract. Contracts outline the conditions for compliance from both parties--as clinical and cold as that may sound. These terms are the expectations, or roles for the man and the woman. Marriages that fail normally do so because 1) both parties did not have the same contract in mind, or 2) one of the parties failed to meet the terms of the contract (a breach of contract). So to sum up my little rant, agreed upon roles MUST exist for the relationship to work. As for my personal relationship framework ideal, the man is the head and I defer to him. That doesn't mean I throw my brain and equality out the door; but not unlike a corporation or military chain of command, the final decision needs to be made by one individual else compromise the integrity of the body.

raeanna74

A woman is a partner. The man and woman are working toward a common goal in marriage - that is to make the marriage a successful cooperative effort. In any team the members take certain roles and those roles change as needs change. When hubby and I married I unconsciously took a very submissive role, as that did not work for me at all I very shortly began to nag and boss him, that didn't work either. Later he had a serious injury and was a bit incapacitated for a good 3 months and was unable to drive during that time. In that time I took over the finances completely, made a lot of decisions for the family and basically ran things. Since then Hubby has taken a more active role and I've stepped back some. We are to the point now where we each step up and take care of the roles that we do best and we communicate as much as possible to each other what roles we are choosing to take and what we need the other person to help with. I have primarily take the role of caregiver for our child. That is because my college training was in education and that is what I do best and enjoy. Hubby enjoys cars, he works outside the home in a car dealership and when he's home he helps to maintain our own cars. I am capable of changing the oil but he enjoys it and I take other responsibilities.

Marriage needs to be a balance. The different partners should be attempting to take the roles that fit them best and to try to allow the other partner to do the same. There needs to be constant give and take and communication. No marriage is able to manage an utopia but it should be what we strive for without stressing over it. Don't let the little things bother you.

Now as to what roles a wife takes in other cultures and religions - you'll have to ask them. If you look even at the Bible for what a woman should do - Check out Proverbs 31. It describes a woman who makes sure meals are prepared, the family is clothed, runs her own business (selling girdles), buys and sells property (for farming), and manages the servants of the household. Granted we don't live in that day and age but it describes a renaissance woman who is capable of much more than submission, companion, servant, or baby breeder.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

onodrim

That's how I feel as well.

__________________
"The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides"
-Carl Sagan

scarletletter

You're selling yourself short if you feel the need to define yourself based on men or relationships. Women need to define their own individual role in society first, not as a partner in a relationship, or a member of a group. once they have done that they can define their relationships as A PART of who they are, not WHO they are. it makes me so mad when i see women in my classes basically in college to find a husband because in their mind "thats just what you do" you need to live your own life. a husband/boyfriend/significant other is just something great that happens along the way.

snowy

I think the first question we all need to ask is how do we define ourselves. Everyone defines themself differently in relation to society, in relation to others, in relation to the world, etc. We are all very different people, especially around these parts, and thus we have very different criteria for self-definition.

That said, I try not to define myself by any standard set by society, by others, etc. I have established a moral standard for myself, and I try to live up to that standard, and I define who I am via my actions pertaining to that standard. Am I a good person? That's relative to what your idea of good is. I am, according to my standard, a good person, and that is enough for me.

As far as defining myself in terms of the opposite sex, I believe that forces me into a gender role I feel little love for. While I do enjoy typically "feminine" pursuits at times, such as cooking and sewing, I also enjoy "masculine" pursuits such as sports and computers. Thus I find myself without a real gender role, and do not bother to define myself as "feminine" or "masculine".

Furthermore, why do we feel the need to define ourselves? Must we put a label on everything? On every part of ourselves? There are places in my heart and soul that defy labels, and thus I refuse to put any kind of label on myself--be it "feminine", "heterosexual" or otherwise.

As Nietzsche said: "One must have chaos in oneself in order to give birth to a dancing star."

While self-exploration is fine and dandy, let's not be too hasty to label ourselves and compartmentalize every little part of ourselves. Be free.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

bad jane

i don't think women have a role with respect to a man anymore. sure there are going to be cultural (both by location, religion and familial) standards but they vary so much that it's different for every woman.

i think the answer you are looking for--the one from the 50's, is gone now. we simply don't have that standard in place anymore. some women enjoy a traditional role much like the stereotypical housewife of the 50's. other women prefer a man who takes on those responsibilities while they assume the traditional male role. neither is right or wrong, it's all about what works for you and the man in question. i think for most of us, the answer is really somewhere in the middle and the definition is so loose that we don't really even see it because we like the flexibility of not defining it.

even for those of us who may feel we don't like labels...wouldn't you agree you have your own ideas on what a relationship should be like? even if you don't want to name (label) your boundaries, surely you realize that they do exist? even saying that each partner brings what they do best to the table is providing boundaries--you are assuming that you are equals, or at least that both will contribute to the relationship whatever skills they have to offer. not all relationships do that.

Brooke

I rather do - I would like to understand the world I was born and destined to operate in.
As cold as that does sound, I rather like that.

This sparked a thought in me. Is it all self powered? How much does society influence our personal views - even considering if we like or don't like what society says -I think what we do is a often a reaction for, or against that mandate.

__________________
And so its over
Your fantasy life is finally at an end
And the world above is still a brutal place
And the story will start again

Livia Regina

Sounds like a thread for Tilted Philosophy if it hasn't been done already. You could try taking another sociology class too, just for fun.

__________________
Rule 37: There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'