Gyn. Pelvic Exam - Feel Violated - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

angela146 · 08-21-2003, 05:27 PM

Can anyone give me a good reason why we really need an annual pelvic exam?

My point:

1. The primary reason is supposedly to detect cervical cancer, which is almost always caused by the HP virus.
2. All of the other stuff that they do, i.e. feeling and probing and checking every single part of the female-specific anatomy, has nothing to do with detecting HPV. So, why do they need to do it?
3. HPV is a sexually transmitted disease. We don't have annual testing for HIV, or any of the other lethal STDs, so why do we need special annual procedures to detect HPV?

My theory #1: Most women will do anything a doctor tells them to do whereas most men won't see a doctor unless taken to one in an ambulance (yes, this is hyperbole but you get the point).

My theory #2: We don't really need this. In the old days, it was an excuse for doctors to fondle women in every conceivable way. Today it's "the way we've always done it", i.e. a practice blindly followed by doctors, including women doctors, because it is part of standard medical practice.

Take a look at the following link, which describes the "procedure" for doing a pelvic exam. It explains each of the procedures involved. Most of them are "checking" for abnormalities. What kind of abnormalities are they looking for and do they *really* need to do this every year?

http://www.medinfo.ufl.edu/year1/bcs...vic/index.html

I have not had a "routine" pelvic exam since I went off the pill. I absolutely hated them and only had them done because the doctor would not give me an RX for the pill unless I had a pelvic exam every year.

Now that I am not on the pill, nor any other form of birth control with my husband, I can't be easily blackmailed.

BTW: When I have sex with anyone other than him (or when he has sex with anyone other than me), rest assured, we practice safe sex. Any risk I have of cervical cancer would also translate into a risk of AIDS and, as I indicated, no doctor has ever suggested that I get an HIV test every year.

Can anyone give me a good reason why a doctor should have to fondly my labia, clitoris, ovaries and uterus to see how tender they are?

Why do I care? It has nothing to do with pain or discomfort. In fact, it would be easier for me if they would stop trying to be so gentle and careful. If they used a cold speculum coated in sandpaper (sterilized sandpaper, of course), it would at least give me something to focus on so I cold ignore the feeling that I'm being raped.

The gentle hands and probing fingers, especially at the beginning of the exam feel *way* too sexual for my taste. It also doesn't help to have a woman doctor, since women are not a sexual turn-off for me. Getting fondled by a woman is no less of a sexual act than being fondled by a man.

I also hate it when they tell me to relax and move my knees apart. It just feels like, "Lie back, spread your legs really far apart and let me fuck you with this nice metal expanding dildo.

(Note, btw, in the medical procedures that the doctor is supposed to touch my inner thigh before touching my anywhere else. The idea is to make it easier for me. Exactly why would I want somone lightly touching a major erogenous zone unless the purpose was to get me off?)

If I had my druthers, and if it really needed to be done, I would have my husband do it. Then I *could* relax and let it be sexual. I wouldn't mind it if hubbby fondled anything he damn well wanted to fondle... He inserts things in there on a regular basis. He could be nice and gentle and I could even get turned on by it.

OK, I know that I'm venting here but am I being that unreasonable?

JadziaDax · 08-21-2003, 05:57 PM

All I will say is this:

If it weren't for the annual pelvic exam, the cervical cyst that my doctor found could have become cancerous if left untreated. No, cervical cancer does NOT run in my family. No, I have never had any STD's or VD's or HIV etc... You may feel violated, you may feel that it's not necessary. But I assure you that there are hundreds of thousands of women who feel otherwise.

There is nothing sexual about the exam. Exam procedures vary from doctor to doctor as well. If you were uncomfortable with your doctor, you should have found another one. I had gone for four years without going for my annual visit, and I got angry with myself for doing so. After hearing about friends of mine who were found to have breast cancer, uterine cancer, and ovarian cancer, I vowed to never miss another year again.

It's your body, do what you want. But from my understanding, neither you nor your husband would be able to diagnose a cancerous cyst on your cervix. And these cysts can happen without being sexually active.

You asked if you were being unreasonable. My answer is, "Yes, you are." Take the time to find a physician who you are comfortable with, one whom you can talk with about your concerns, fears, what makes you uncomfortable. There are good doctors out there.

galaxygirl · 08-21-2003, 07:11 PM

I'm with Jadzia on this one - cysts, fibriods and tumors can develop without any extrenal symptoms. The pap smear detects signs of cervical changes which can signal the development of cervical cancer. HPV is not the only cause of cervical cancer.

For the last year I have had to have paps every 3 months because I had level III dysplaysia( the last step before cervical cancer), and had to have part of my cervix removed with laser surgery . If I had skipped my annual I would most likely have developed cancer by now.

I feel as uncomfortable about breast exams as you do about pelvic exams, but I am very lax about doing them myself, and I am never sure just what it is I am feeling (besides the obvious) but I have the exams because I am rather fond of my breasts and I would hate to lose them.

angela146 · 08-21-2003, 07:42 PM

Thanks, Jadzia, for saying what needed to be said in firm enough terms to be effective without crossing the line into being harsh.

I think what I'm asking is for you and the others here on TFP to help me get past the anger, frustration and other emotional stuff so that I can make some kind of rational decision.

So, please take me with a grain of salt on this issue. Most of all, if I sound like I'm angry at you or anyone else, please filter that out as you read this post. I'm really not. I just can't talk (or write) about this without getting angry and needing to blow off steam every other paragraph.

Quote:

There is nothing sexual about the exam. Exam procedures vary from doctor to doctor as well. If you were uncomfortable with your doctor, you should have found another one.

I've tried. (Perhaps I haven't tried hard enough but I have tried). I've been to five different doctors for pelvic exams (one before going to college, two at college, two since).

When I was in school, I couldn't get a doctor to talk to me seriously about much of anything, especially about this.

I tried talking to my most recent MD about how I felt. Having been out of school for a while, I felt like I wasn't a kid anymore and finally had a right to my own opinion. Even then, I could not get her to take me seriously. I couldn't get her off of "why are you concerned about this" and onto "why is this even necessary in the first place". It's as if they're not to be questioned; their judgement is absolute. Us ordinary women aren't owed an explanation of what's happening and why.

Quote:

I had gone for four years without going for my annual visit, and I got angry with myself for doing so. After hearing about friends of mine who were found to have breast cancer, uterine cancer, and ovarian cancer, I vowed to never miss another year again.

I guess I would feel better about it if it weren't for the fact that most breast cancers and especially most ovarian cancers aren't caught by physical exams, they're caught by mamograms and/or women finding lumps in their own breasts, or in the case of ovarian cancer, they just don't get caught all that often.

Quote:

It's your body, do what you want.

I guess that's part of the problem. When I'm in a doctor's office, it doesn't feel like it's my body.

Quote:

But from my understanding, neither you nor your husband would be able to diagnose a cancerous cyst on your cervix.

OK, that remark I made about my husband doing the exam was not intended to be serious (I hope I didn't sound like I was being serious at that point). I was blowing off steam and trying to express the feeling of frustration.

Quote:

And these cysts can happen without being sexually active.

Is this true? If I could get a straight answer from a physician about whether HPV can be transmitted non-sexually (i.e. is it similar to a yeast infection) it might go a long way toward my feeling like there's a real purpose.

Quote:

You asked if you were being unreasonable. My answer is, "Yes, you are."

I'm perfectly willing to admit that I'm being irrational. Having said that, I wish I could get a doctor to *be rational* instead of dogmatic and patronizing.

Quote:

Take the time to find a physician who you are comfortable with, one whom you can talk with about your concerns, fears, what makes you uncomfortable. There are good doctors out there. [/B]

How do I find one? How do I find a doctor that will treat me like a thinking intelligent person rather than a lab specimen?

Thanks for listening and putting up with my temper tantrum.

JadziaDax · 08-21-2003, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by galaxygirl
HPV is not the only cause of cervical cancer.

That is the most important sentance I've seen so far, and it's very true. For some reason you are under the misguidance of HPV being the ONLY cause of cervical cancer. Cysts happen (much like shit does).

Finding a doctor that you are comfortable with can take a lot of time and patience and interviewing. Not just jumping right into an exam. I'm not saying it's easy. The first step, however, is asking friends and family about the doctors they go to. Asking about the good and bad. Then make an appointment to speak with one, not necessarily for a pelvic exam, but to sit and talk. Sometimes this eases fears.

I don't know where you are located in the world, but if you were in my location, I would have a handful of OB/GYN's to be able to send you to. And I could guarantee you wouldn't feel like a piece of meat on the slab.

Quote:

Us ordinary women aren't owed an explanation of what's happening and why.

This is one of the main things that drives me to choose any doctor or dentist (or even my hairdresser, believe it or not). If you, as a professional, cannot tell me what you are doing while you are doing it (or just before) and why, then you are not going to be doing anything to me at all. I like to be informed, and I will question whether something is totally necessary. Imagine my doctor's surprise when I started questioning her about the coloscopy... but she told me beforehand the entire process, and then during it she explained everything just before it happened. It really did put my mind at ease.

This is the type of cooperation you need to find in a doctor. I found it. Other's have found it. You can find it, too. Seriously, don't skip these types of exams. You won't realize how important they really are until it's too late.

cheerios · 08-21-2003, 09:23 PM

pelvic exams are NOT fun, but neither should they give you the feeling of being violated and raped. i think, mayhap, a change of docs would be a VERY good idea... I go to the health center at my school, and while it's no fun, i've never felt like the women with their fingers in my pussy were doing it for any other reason than that was their job and they were concerned for my ongoing health. With a LOT of cancer going back on both sides of my family, i have to echo galaxygirl with the sentiment that although the exams are a pain, i am fond of my body and would not like to lose part of it.

edit: or, at least, lose a non-vital part. i'd rather go 1-boobed then w/o a stomach, like they're about to do to my grandpa.

angela146 · 08-21-2003, 09:48 PM

OK, let's set my emotional issues aside for the moment (as best I can).

I may be mis-interpreting what I am reading, but as I understand it, HPV is, in fact, an STD and does cause "essentially all" cervical cancer. I encourage anyone who has any doubts to read further at this web site and the American Cancer Society web site for themselves.

Quote:

[From the "National Cervical Cancer Public Education Campaign" web site: http://www.cervicalcancercampaign.org/advance/index.htm This is a program of the Gynecologic Cancer Foundation which was established by the Society of Gynecologic Oncologists (SGO)]

Clinical studies have confirmed that the human papillomavirus, or HPV, is the cause of essentially all cervical cancer. HPV is one of the most common sexually transmitted diseases in the United States. However, the majority of women are unaware of this fact. In a recent survey, 70 percent of women were unable to name the cause of cervical cancer, and 76 percent had never heard of HPV.

I added the orange color for emphasis and all text within the [] brackets is mine also. I'm not particularly happy with the word "essentially" and will try to find a reference that clarifies this.

Also this is only a partial page from an extensive web site on the subject. I would encourage anyone reading this thread to visit the site and read as much of it as your "dry reading tollerance" will allow.

Quote:

[from the same web site]:
In 2002, ACS [American Cancer Society] published new guidelines for cervical cancer screening and in 2003, ACOG [American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists ] also released new recommendations for screening. Both recognize new cervical cancer screening and detection techniques, and contain important information concerning the prevention and early detection of cervical cancer.

This next part put a ray of sunshine in my day (even this late at night)...

Quote:

For a woman 30 years of age or older who chooses to have the new combined Pap test and HPV test, if both test results are negative (normal), neither test will need to be repeated more often than every three years. If the Pap test is negative (normal) and the HPV test is positive, then the HPV test should be repeated in 6-12 months. If both tests are positive, a woman’s physician will discuss next steps with her. Women in this age group may also choose to have a regular Pap test without an HPV test.

The new combined test is not recommended for women under the age of 30 because while HPV is very common in women of this age group, cervical cancer is very rare. In most women under the age of 30 who have HPV, the virus will go away before it causes any cell changes or symptoms. Including an HPV test along with the Pap test for younger women provides no real health benefit, and might lead to too many tests and unnecessary treatments.

The ray of sunshine is due to the fact that I am 28 years old and will, (assuming the test proves negative) be able to get by with a test only every three years.

*Nikki* · 08-22-2003, 08:57 AM

I don't like it BUT I would have rather have a pelvic exam anyday then go to the DENTIST.

I hate the dentist.

shannon · 08-22-2003, 10:16 AM

maybe i'm just a sheep here, but i always just figure find a doctor you really like and then trust them on it. i work as a cashier, and as bad an comparison as this may be, it always pisses me off when customers don't trust me on stuff. i understand why some might be hesitant, but it's my job, it's what i do anytime i'm not in school. i know my groceries. so, yeah, bad comparison. but i kinda figure it's the same type of thing. they go to school for such a long time and most have some experience clinically, and i figure they're just trying their best to keep me at tip top shape. my doctor right now is sooo kind and thourough in everything she does and i totally feel like she is looking out for me. but i understand that it may be hard to find a doctor that you can trust in that way. i wish you the best of luck.

collide · 08-22-2003, 11:41 AM

I don't know, I've never felt violated during any physical or medical examination. It just all seems so routine to me, and I tend to think that it's all for my own good and personal well-being, so getting regular check ups for anything is okay by me. My physicians never treat me like a lab experiment, so I guess that helps me feel more comfortable. Surprisingly, the only thing that makes me uncomfortable is when my gynecologist (a woman) asks me about my sex life, and I don't usually share those with anyone (despite posting on TFP on ocassion).

cheerios · 08-22-2003, 11:47 AM

LOL, yeah, I dread those questions "are you sleeping with more than one partner" lady, my answer to this question for 3 years now, has been no. so... no.

yoshi · 08-22-2003, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by *Nikki*
I don't like it BUT I would have rather have a pelvic exam anyday then go to the DENTIST.

I hate the dentist.

You and me both girl! I also prefer a woman OB/GYN

angela146 · 08-23-2003, 01:21 PM

Hi folks...

I feel better now.

Please read my journal, entry #19. It will be painful to read but I think it will be a good cathartic exercise.

I would like Jadzia, Cheerios and Galaxygirl especially to read it. My thanks to you for replying so quickly and skillfully Thursday night.

Thanks to the rest of you also who have contributed to this thread.

angela146 · 08-23-2003, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shannon
maybe i'm just a sheep here, ...

Shannon (and anyone else interested in this topic), please read entry #20 in my journal: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/journal...72&action=view

galaxygirl · 08-24-2003, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by angela146
Hi folks...

I feel better now.

Please read my journal, entry #19. It will be painful to read but I think it will be a good cathartic exercise.

I would like Jadzia, Cheerios and Galaxygirl especially to read it. My thanks to you for replying so quickly and skillfully Thursday night.

Thanks to the rest of you also who have contributed to this thread.

You are welcome. I read your journal and was tuched to be mentioned, and I'm sure I can count on you to bitch slap me into shape when I need it.

angela146 · 08-24-2003, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by galaxygirl
You are welcome. I read your journal and was tuched to be mentioned, and I'm sure I can count on you to bitch slap me into shape when I need it.

Oh, yeah... yup, I got my palm all nice and warmed up and ready to go any time you need it...

Let's see a bitch slap is with the palm and a pimp slap is with the back of the hand... right?

For now, hows about I give you a nice big hug...

Baileys · 08-26-2003, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by angela146
I think what I'm asking is for you and the others here on TFP to help me get past the anger, frustration and other emotional stuff so that I can make some kind of rational decision.

I do not think every MD thinks it is sexual. However, I *DO* understand how it gets there when you are the one on your back with your legs open and the BRIGHT light really warms you up down there!

I do feel for some general practicionars though. You no longer can go to an oby-gyn, your GP can do it. Well most GP's are men and they have to have a nurse present to make sure they do not assult you. I am actually more uncomfortable with the nurse there!

I get this exam done if on the pill or not. My best friend had breast cancer at 33! My GP found a lump in my breast when I was 34 and of course I almost went thru the roof. I couldn't find it till he pointed it out.

I go annually to make sure I don't miss anything.

angela146 · 08-26-2003, 09:19 PM

Just so you all know, my issues are getting resolved...

I'm going away in a few days to be alone with my husband and tell him about it. Having done that, I'm quite sure that he will make sure I do what I need to do... and get me through it... and help me get past something that should have been resolved years ago...

Thank you all for being there...

More info in my journal: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/journal...ournalid=27572

Entries 19, 20 and 23

angelana2 · 06-22-2007, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angela146

Just so you all know, my issues are getting resolved...

I'm going away in a few days to be alone with my husband and tell him about it. Having done that, I'm quite sure that he will make sure I do what I need to do... and get me through it... and help me get past something that should have been resolved years ago...

Thank you all for being there...

More info in my journal: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/journal...ournalid=27572

Entries 19, 20 and 23

i know its 2007 and i'm definitely not sure if you are still an active member but i agree on the violation...i get so pissed at this procedure...and honestly i think guys should be tested too for those diseases that might make us women so vulnerable...i don't know whether we should accept things just like that by science (not like im super religious) but honestly tapping mother nature might not always be good either..i wonder what women did centuries ago? also its so annoying having someone stare at you in your privates unless its someone you have chosen

ShaniFaye · 06-22-2007, 01:59 PM

What did women do centuries ago? They died of female cancers that went undetected. Cervical cancer is not the only female cancer that a woman needs to be concerned with, there is also Uterine and Ovarian (in case there happen to be be additional misguided women out there)

It absolutely stupid in this day and age for a woman not to have her yearly exam....from the time that you start having sex until you die (pretty much) My great grandmother got ovarian cancer when she was 70 and died from it, my other great grandmother got breast cancer at 80 and died of it. \

Dont like your dr? go find another one, and another and another and another until you find one that you can deal with.

No this is not something any woman enjoys, I dislike having to time having intercourse around it and then waiting a day or two to have it afterwards because Im sore. I dislike having to lay on that table and "scooch my butt to the end" I dislike realizing I didnt shave my legs completely and laying there with my feet in the stirrups realizing I have hairy knees...but you know what?....

I'd dislike being dead a whole lot more and Im sure my hubby and my daughter would too.

Got an issue with a male dr? there are PLENTY of female doctors that do gyn exams, and guess what? THEIR hands are smaller lol

Its what? an hour once a year (as long as the test comes back ok) to insure the well being of your body......why do you want to become a cancer death statistic?

snowy · 06-22-2007, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

What did women do centuries ago? They died of female cancers that went undetected. Cervical cancer is not the only female cancer that a woman needs to be concerned with, there is also Uterine and Ovarian (in case there happen to be be additional misguided women out there)

It absolutely stupid in this day and age for a woman not to have her yearly exam....from the time that you start having sex until you die (pretty much) My great grandmother got ovarian cancer when she was 70 and died from it, my other great grandmother got breast cancer at 80 and died of it. \

Dont like your dr? go find another one, and another and another and another until you find one that you can deal with.

No this is not something any woman enjoys, I dislike having to time having intercourse around it and then waiting a day or two to have it afterwards because Im sore. I dislike having to lay on that table and "scooch my butt to the end" I dislike realizing I didnt shave my legs completely and laying there with my feet in the stirrups realizing I have hairy knees...but you know what?....

I'd dislike being dead a whole lot more and Im sure my hubby and my daughter would too.

Got an issue with a male dr? there are PLENTY of female doctors that do gyn exams, and guess what? THEIR hands are smaller lol

Its what? an hour once a year (as long as the test comes back ok) to insure the well being of your body......why do you want to become a cancer death statistic?

There are also plenty of female nurse practitioners who specialize in family planning practice and do annuals. I've been getting mine from LPNs for the last four years via a program called the Family Planning Project (via state funding, they cover exams and family planning services, including birth control, for low-income females) for free.

Every woman should get her annual exam. It's just part of being a woman and having all of our sexual organs on the inside. How many women look at their vaginas on a regular basis? Not many, that's who. When was the last time you looked at your vagina? Do you even know what your vagina should look like when it's healthy? How will you know if it looks abnormal if you don't know what it looks like normally? THAT is why we get annual exams. We don't look inside of our vaginas or check our cervixes ourselves on a regular basis, so we should have a doctor or nurse practitioner check for us once a year. It's key, as Shani said, to early detection.

Additionally, it's a great opportunity to talk about your sexual health with a health practitioner, and learn about new advances in contraception or other sexual health products.

Elphaba · 06-22-2007, 05:27 PM

Hmmm...angela146 becomes a "loser", but angelana2 renews the same thread?

Feeling violated from a pap? Sheesh, grow up. I doubt guys are thrilled about the "cough" test either.

tenniels · 06-23-2007, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Nikki*

I don't like it BUT I would have rather have a pelvic exam anyday then go to the DENTIST.

I hate the dentist.

I so agree with you on this!!! From the time I was in grade 5-7 I was constantly seeing dentists, orthodontists, and periodontists (braces, funfun). I would much rather get a physical than have to spend any more time in a dentist chair.

I don't much LIKE getting a pelvic examination, but I went just this week and the actual time spent down there was seriously only a few minutes. In my opinion it's worth the time to check things out. If you're uncomfortable with it and don't like getting it done that much, don't. It's your body and if you hate it that much, who cares if you don't get it done? Personally, I will continue to get them done as I don't mind THAT much and find the potential rewards to outweigh the temporary discomfort. As for it being in anyway sexual, I think for 99.9% of doctors, it is anything BUT sexual. They look at body parts as just that, body parts. If they don't, then I think there is something wrong. I don't think there are many doctors out there that would consider a pelvic exam/pap smear to be sexual.

Lady Sage · 06-23-2007, 06:02 AM

I love my doctor. She has saved my life twice so far. SInce my abnormal pap last month, she may indeed be saving my life again. Hell, we talk the whole time she is doing her peek and poke visit. First name basis, laugh and tell jokes, catch up on family situations. She even made me promise to bring in pictures from the wedding and honeymoon.

You think a pap is bad, wait til you have a kid. Its a regular crotch carnival, especially delivery.

Do whatever you wish, we can not talk you into doing otherwise.

lurkette · 06-25-2007, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

Hmmm...angela146 becomes a "loser", but angelana2 renews the same thread?

Yeah, I thought this was fishy, too.

Quote:

Feeling violated from a pap? Sheesh, grow up. I doubt guys are thrilled about the "cough" test either.

The bottom line is that annual pelvic exams are for YOUR protection, not your doctor's jollies. They detect a lot more than just HPV or cervical cancer (as has been discussed to death above), but just for the sake of beating the dead horse, here is a list of things that doctors are looking for in a pelvic exam:

A pelvic exam may be done:

* As part of a woman's regular physical checkup. A Pap smear may be done during the pelvic exam. For more information, see the medical test Pap Test.
* To detect vaginal infections, such as yeast infections or bacterial vaginosis.
* To help detect sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), such as chlamydia, herpes, gonorrhea, trichomoniasis, or human papillomavirus (HPV).
* To help determine the cause of abnormal uterine bleeding.
* To evaluate pelvic organ abnormalities, such as uterine fibroids, ovarian cysts, or uterine prolapse.
* To evaluate abdominal or pelvic pain.
* Before prescribing a method of birth control (contraception). Some methods of birth control, such as a diaphragm or intrauterine device, require a pelvic exam to make sure the device fits properly.

(from women.webmd.com)

Look, nobody's making you do it. It's your choice to do it or not. If your emotional issues are such that you don't feel comfortable with it, don't do it. But know that you are choosing to accept the risks of not having an exam. If you would like to have the added security of having an exam done, then grow up and get over your issues, which surely are not limited to this venue.

P.S. Quit acting like a victim.

Jinx123 · 08-02-2008, 05:50 AM

I agree with the original poster, even five years after she posted. I admire her fortitude in going against the mainstream mode of thought and daring to question this age-old practice of female examination.

I agree that if it wasn't for pelvic exams, some women would have serious health problems or even be dead. In those cases, the exam was a helpful, lifesaving tool.

Most modern women don't realize the centuries of history involving examination of their genitals, and they were not all pleasant or with ethical treatment to say the least. Modern women also need to realize that just because one individual does not perceive the exam to be invasive does not mean that other women should feel this way.

The history of gynecology is a seedy one; furthermore, this history is not common knowledge to the average woman. Couple that with individual sexual perceptions and experiences, and the by-product is a woman who feels adamant about exposing what is private and sacred to her to a total stranger. This is perfectly understandable.

I feel violated, too, regarding this exam. To me, it is an event which has very, very socially-charged and sexually-charged mores that are expected to be left at the door in the name of good health. If you personally don't feel violated by this, that is fine, but then this discussion is not for you, either

ngdawg · 08-02-2008, 07:15 AM

If you feel "violated" then I would suggest getting another, and a female, doctor or PA.
At my last exam, the conversation went something like this:
She: Yep. The vaginal walls are thinning and there's some dryness.
Me: Well, that's just because I'm not thinking good thoughts at the moment
She: *chuckle*

I truly doubt I could have that exchange with a male doctor.
And because my doctor is older than me, she's been there, done that and understands the phases she's seen me in these last 15 years.
If you go in with dread, you feed the dread. Some things have to be done and you shouldn't feel "violated" or fearful when doing them. We all have a personal obligation to our health and well being.

A woman I once worked with had a baby and less than two years later, her "periods" wouldn't stop. After a few months of constantly bleeding, she went to the doctor (she too hated being examined) and was found to have a large fibroid tumor that had broken thru her uterine wall. Considering this occured in less than 2 years, what would have happened had she waited even longer? And, had she gone for her yearly, more than likely it would have been found before the damage was as extensive as it was.

Jinx123 · 08-02-2008, 07:40 AM

Please, and I ask you respectfully and politely, do not tell me how I should and shouldn't feel: "You shouldn't feel violated." I'm not insisting that you should feel violated. I realize that not all women perceive this procedure to be invasive, and that is fine, but invalidating others' feelings is not constructive.

Though the exam may have a greater purpose in spite of the unpleasantries, it still doesn't change the fact that some women are experiencing what they perceive to be invasiveness of their sexuality. Perhaps they were sexually abused -- even by a doctor. To them, the end justifying the means is highly questionable because the exam is causing as much or more damage as the disease itself.

ngdawg · 08-02-2008, 07:53 AM

You misread the intent. "You shouldn't feel violated" because, well, no doctor should do anything to make you feel that way, not as a dismissal of your emotions. "Shouldn't HAVE to feel" might have been better wording.
If you or anyone else has been personally violated then that's an issue that needs to be dealt with. The vast majority of medical practioners don't see you as a sexual being-they're just doing their jobs to keep you healthy.
Having trust in your medical practitioner is part of the process and if you don't have that trust, then you need to look elsewhere.
I don't see it as anything sexual any more than I would see a mammogram or teeth cleaning as sexual. It's a process in health maintenance.
This isn't 1908 when doctors used to think that orgasm would cure a woman's "hysteria" or that removing her reproductive organs would make her sane.

snowy · 08-02-2008, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinx123

The history of gynecology is a seedy one; furthermore, this history is not common knowledge to the average woman. Couple that with individual sexual perceptions and experiences, and the by-product is a woman who feels adamant about exposing what is private and sacred to her to a total stranger. This is perfectly understandable.

I've actually studied the history of sexuality closely in university, and I have to say that when it comes to the practice of medicine, specifically the field of gynecology, you're right in one thing--yes, there is a "seedy history" there, but you are doing modern doctors a disservice when you imply that they are somehow equal to those quacks because of that history. Quite frankly, the implication is offensive. The field is now more regulated than it was then, for sure.

Furthermore, there is no need to go to a gynecologist or ob/gyn to get an annual done. My last annual was completed by a young female PA who specializes in family planning. It was a great experience--we laughed and joked the whole time, even while she was "down there" and my feet were in the stirrups.

If you perceive some kind of power struggle between yourself and your practitioner, and that your physician, PA, or LPN is treating you as if you don't know anything about your body and don't need to be educated about your body, you need to get a new practitioner, period. The exam, when done correctly, should never make anyone feel violated, and it should never make anyone feel ignorant, either. It should make you feel like you have a partner in taking care of your body. Ideally, your practitioner will use the visit as a time that isn't just about the exam, but about discussing your sexual health and your family planning practices in general. If that isn't happening, again, find a new practitioner.

JustJess · 08-02-2008, 09:40 AM

As a PA in training, I can tell you that we are especially trained in performing a pelvic exam differently than other parts of the physical exam. Whereas we practice other parts on fellow students, for the pelvic (and the uro-rectal-genital exam on males) we have special teaching assistants come in. They teach us not just the procedures necessary, but also how to treat our patients and show respect and care in our behavior and language.

I can assure you that as a person who has both "chaperoned" for others giving the pelvic exam, and as someone who now must perform them, there is nothing sexual in our minds at all (this from someone who dabbles with females on occasion, so could possibly see them sexually). I can tell you that my male classmates feel just the same as I do - we want to make our patients comfortable, and do a good job so that we can catch any health issues before they become more complicated. That's it. Once you are trained as a medical professional, you view the body, well, differently.

I think I see MORE beauty in the human form now than I did before, but that's because of my greater understanding of how the body works, and how it's put together. We're pretty neat, you know? But it is not a sexual thing. It couldn't be. In order to think clinically, there just isn't room for sexuality.

Now, I am not saying there aren't bad practitioners out there who do cross those lines, and I hope we find every last one of them and completely destroy their reputations (since that is what typically matters to them)... but it is NOT the norm. If you are uncomfortable with your doctor or PA, then find a new one. You owe it to yourself and your health.

Jinx123 · 08-02-2008, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

I've actually studied the history of sexuality closely in university, and I have to say that when it comes to the practice of medicine, specifically the field of gynecology, you're right in one thing--yes, there is a "seedy history" there, but you are doing modern doctors a disservice when you imply that they are somehow equal to those quacks because of that history. Quite frankly, the implication is offensive. The field is now more regulated than it was then, for sure.

ngdawg · 08-02-2008, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinx123

Ahh. Then certainly you have read the book, Public Privates: Performing Gynecology From Both Ends Of The Speculum by gynecology instructor, Terri Kapsalis. She would hold a much different view than what you just claimed. So do the many women on health message boards devoted to overcoming horrible gyno exams. I think you are oblivious to this significant population.

There are still doctors who make poor choices of actions and words during the exams in modern times. They end up hurting women physically and mentally, and they are not a rare population.

However, I do agree with you about seeking out a non-traditional exam, but those type of clinics don't exist in every city or town.

Kapsalis Bio
This is her faculty bio and it says nothing about her credentials regarding "gynecology instructor". She's an artist.

Quote:

TERRI KAPSALIS is a writer and performer. Her essays have appeared in interdisciplinary journals such as Public and Lusitania, and her book Public Privates: Performing Gynecology from Both Ends of the Speculum is available from Duke University Press. She is a long-time member of Chicago's Theater Oobleck, and as an active free-improvising violinist has recorded and performed with Tony Conrad, Gastr del Sol, Dan Scanlan, Fred Lonberg-Holm, Lou Mallozzi, Phil Wachsmann, John Butcher, Paul Lovens and many others. With John Corbett and reed player Ken Vandermark she constructs musical montages in the collective called Wounded Jukebox. An expanded version of her tale "Handless" has been published in The Baffler #13 (Winter 1999).

Source
Not even worth paying attention to, really.

Jinx123 · 08-02-2008, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJess

As a PA in training, I can tell you that we are especially trained in performing a pelvic exam differently than other parts of the physical exam. Whereas we practice other parts on fellow students, for the pelvic (and the uro-rectal-genital exam on males) we have special teaching assistants come in. They teach us not just the procedures necessary, but also how to treat our patients and show respect and care in our behavior and language.

I can assure you that as a person who has both "chaperoned" for others giving the pelvic exam, and as someone who now must perform them, there is nothing sexual in our minds at all (this from someone who dabbles with females on occasion, so could possibly see them sexually). I can tell you that my male classmates feel just the same as I do - we want to make our patients comfortable, and do a good job so that we can catch any health issues before they become more complicated. That's it. Once you are trained as a medical professional, you view the body, well, differently.

I think I see MORE beauty in the human form now than I did before, but that's because of my greater understanding of how the body works, and how it's put together. We're pretty neat, you know? But it is not a sexual thing. It couldn't be. In order to think clinically, there just isn't room for sexuality.

Now, I am not saying there aren't bad practitioners out there who do cross those lines, and I hope we find every last one of them and completely destroy their reputations (since that is what typically matters to them)... but it is NOT the norm. If you are uncomfortable with your doctor or PA, then find a new one. You owe it to yourself and your health.

I appreciate this post.

The problem some women have, and I think some offices are not aware of this, is that the exam IS so clinical. It's cookie-cutter. The woman has been reduced to a body part, not a person who can feel pain or humiliation. I posted previously about the book Public Privates written by gynecology instructor Terri Kapsalis. She dares to address these issues of doctors being insensitive and clinical. This is happening today, not in all cases, but it is not seldom either. Different women have to be approached different ways. Different women have different perceptions of sexuality. The whole gyno approach needs an overhaul.

For example, dental spas. There is such a population of people who have such anxiety about going to the dentist, that dental spas have become the rage: herb tea, ambient lighting, soothing music, massages. And this approach is effective. It is socially acceptable to have anxiety about the dentist, and the industry has addressed this effectively. Gyno exams should follow suit.

Also, and this is not directed at you personally, but there are some women who are bothered by the chaperone being in the room. Though it's tradition, it shouldn't be assumed that this is a help to the patient. She should be asked first.

There should be a diagnostic survey for each woman that will determine what kind of doctor would be most suited to her. Some women like a paternal approach, others like a clinical approach, some like a dental spa approach, etc. Then the woman can be directed to a specific doctor who practices with that approach.

But anyway, my whole point of posting is directed back to the OP: women shouldn't be ridiculed for asking the questions the OP did and for desiring a different approach. It's the "you should suck it up and take it" social stigma that drives women even further away from the gyno. (I know you didn't come across like that, but some earlier in the thread did.) Everyone perceives sexuality in diverse ways, and tradiional Western medicine has not caught onto this yet -- even in this modern age. Some of the women's wellness centers, which tend to be more liberal in thought, have caught on. Kudos to them.
-----Added 2/8/2008 at 06 : 57 : 50-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

Kapsalis Bio
This is her faculty bio and it says nothing about her credentials regarding "gynecology instructor". She's an artist.

Source
Not even worth paying attention to, really.

Here in my hardback copy, it says:

"Terri Kapsalis is a health educator and performer. Her writings have appeared in Lusitania, New Formations, Public, and TDR. She has taught in art schools and medical schools..."

Look on page 8 of the book. Do you even own a copy or have read the book? I will quote it for you:

"I approach this topic as not only a medical consumer, but as an educator and performance practitioner....I was working as a gynecology teaching associate for a Chicago medical school, teaching a small group of second-year medical students breast and pelvic exams on my own body....Soon thereafter, I became a member of a women's health collective, working as a health educator, teaching women breast and cervical exam."

ngdawg · 08-02-2008, 04:36 PM

Sorry, but I will take what her university stats say over what she claims in a book.
Fact is, she is not of the medical community, her main career is as a performance artist and her claims are, at best suspect. If I want to sell a book, I'm certainly not going to promote myself as someone who's just a writer with an opinion-I'm going to embellish, exagerate and promote.
For anyone to take the musings of ONE person as fact is, quite honestly, ignorant. It is not educating oneself, it's finding one thing that agrees with what you think and calling it fact.
But, that is, after all, your choice. Let's hope it's not a wrong one.

Jinx123 · 08-03-2008, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

Sorry, but I will take what her university stats say over what she claims in a book.
Fact is, she is not of the medical community, her main career is as a performance artist and her claims are, at best suspect. If I want to sell a book, I'm certainly not going to promote myself as someone who's just a writer with an opinion-I'm going to embellish, exagerate and promote.
For anyone to take the musings of ONE person as fact is, quite honestly, ignorant. It is not educating oneself, it's finding one thing that agrees with what you think and calling it fact.
But, that is, after all, your choice. Let's hope it's not a wrong one.

Drawing conclusions about a book's authenticity and the author's experiences before actually reading the book is ignorant as well.

ngdawg · 08-03-2008, 07:46 AM

Perhaps, but I took the time to read about the author. By finding out about who writes what, you can be in a better position to make a decision about what to read and research. It's no different with finding a practitioner who can fill your needs. Research and trying to find out as much as you can allows you to make an informed decision regarding which direction to go.By researching the author, I am in a position to accept or reject what she writes. If all you have as your information is one book written by one layperson, your information is sorely limited. And when your information is limited, your choices suffer.

Jinx123 · 08-03-2008, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

Perhaps, but I took the time to read about the author. By finding out about who writes what, you can be in a better position to make a decision about what to read and research. It's no different with finding a practitioner who can fill your needs. Research and trying to find out as much as you can allows you to make an informed decision regarding which direction to go.By researching the author, I am in a position to accept or reject what she writes. If all you have as your information is one book written by one layperson, your information is sorely limited. And when your information is limited, your choices suffer.

ngdawg,

Certainly you are free to accept or reject what literature you deem worth your valuable time, but I think you still make a hasty, biased judgement.

Kapsalis' book has 28 pages-worth of footnotes and bibliography; in other words, the information she cites come from (for example): The American Journal of Medicine, The First Pelvic Examination by Julius Buchwald, M.D., Evolution of the Gynecologic Teaching Associate. by Robert M. Kretzchmar, M.D.. But if they are not credible sources in describing the evolution and practices of gynecology, then give examples of what you personally find to be credible. I'd be very curious to know.

Whether or not Kapsalis has a medical degree or not is irrelevant to the reason I mentioned her book. I brought up her name to make the point that she is one of many women who recognize the deficiency that still exists in traditional gynecological exams. Yes, it has evolved since the Victorian Era of vibrators, but it still demands improvement. In fact, putting the book aside, there are webpages, blogs, and message boards full of women's gyno horror stories describing how they were mistreated or humiliated physically and emotionally, some never to return to any gynecologist, ever.

This was my whole point in bringing up the Public Privates title: while gynecology has evolved, it hasn't evolved everywhere, and the women are paying a very high price as a result.

A woman can research all she wants to find a doctor, but there is only so much that can assure her of a humane, dignified experience until she actually experiences it in the moment. There are no guarantees, especially in emergency situations where she doesn't have a choice.

ngdawg · 08-03-2008, 02:32 PM

And yet you reject the very notion of annual exams based on the minority of incidental data.
Had she chosen to write a book about the strides and advancements in women's health would you then accept or reject the data used?
The point is we accept what we want to accept, and when it's a negative toward an issue, we embrace it more. But negative connotations, especially as they pertain to our own personal well being, hurts no one but our own selves.
While you choose to be anti-progression and vigilant in pointing out the "horror stories", which are far outnumbered byt the advances, I choose to be pro and vigilant in my assurances that I am getting the best I can find.
In my over half a century on this planet, I have yet to be "sexually violated", the victim of poor medical decisions or taken advantage of because of my status as a female.

Jinx123 · 08-04-2008, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

And yet you reject the very notion of annual exams based on the minority of incidental data.
Had she chosen to write a book about the strides and advancements in women's health would you then accept or reject the data used?
The point is we accept what we want to accept, and when it's a negative toward an issue, we embrace it more. But negative connotations, especially as they pertain to our own personal well being, hurts no one but our own selves.
While you choose to be anti-progression and vigilant in pointing out the "horror stories", which are far outnumbered byt the advances, I choose to be pro and vigilant in my assurances that I am getting the best I can find.
In my over half a century on this planet, I have yet to be "sexually violated", the victim of poor medical decisions or taken advantage of because of my status as a female.

I already acknowledged that gynecology has evolved in the past hundred years. I stated in a previous post that the experience should evolve to be like that of dental spas, so you cannot accuse me of being "anti-progressive."

Of course there are wonderful doctors who don't take advantage of their patients. I'm not denying that. But there is also a population of doctors who do not treat theur patients appropriately, and this cannot be ignored. Neither can the patient's personal perception of sexuality as religion and culture plays an enormous and diverse role in shaping this.

All I am doing is validating the women who have had bad experiences and offering them emotional support instead of condemnation.

08-21-2003, 05:27 PM	#1 (permalink)
angela146 Loser Location: Somewhere near Hubby	Gyn. Pelvic Exam - Feel Violated Can anyone give me a good reason why we really need an annual pelvic exam? My point: 1. The primary reason is supposedly to detect cervical cancer, which is almost always caused by the HP virus. 2. All of the other stuff that they do, i.e. feeling and probing and checking every single part of the female-specific anatomy, has nothing to do with detecting HPV. So, why do they need to do it? 3. HPV is a sexually transmitted disease. We don't have annual testing for HIV, or any of the other lethal STDs, so why do we need special annual procedures to detect HPV? My theory #1: Most women will do anything a doctor tells them to do whereas most men won't see a doctor unless taken to one in an ambulance (yes, this is hyperbole but you get the point). My theory #2: We don't really need this. In the old days, it was an excuse for doctors to fondle women in every conceivable way. Today it's "the way we've always done it", i.e. a practice blindly followed by doctors, including women doctors, because it is part of standard medical practice. Take a look at the following link, which describes the "procedure" for doing a pelvic exam. It explains each of the procedures involved. Most of them are "checking" for abnormalities. What kind of abnormalities are they looking for and do they really need to do this every year? http://www.medinfo.ufl.edu/year1/bcs...vic/index.html I have not had a "routine" pelvic exam since I went off the pill. I absolutely hated them and only had them done because the doctor would not give me an RX for the pill unless I had a pelvic exam every year. Now that I am not on the pill, nor any other form of birth control with my husband, I can't be easily blackmailed. BTW: When I have sex with anyone other than him (or when he has sex with anyone other than me), rest assured, we practice safe sex. Any risk I have of cervical cancer would also translate into a risk of AIDS and, as I indicated, no doctor has ever suggested that I get an HIV test every year. Can anyone give me a good reason why a doctor should have to fondly my labia, clitoris, ovaries and uterus to see how tender they are? Why do I care? It has nothing to do with pain or discomfort. In fact, it would be easier for me if they would stop trying to be so gentle and careful. If they used a cold speculum coated in sandpaper (sterilized sandpaper, of course), it would at least give me something to focus on so I cold ignore the feeling that I'm being raped. The gentle hands and probing fingers, especially at the beginning of the exam feel way too sexual for my taste. It also doesn't help to have a woman doctor, since women are not a sexual turn-off for me. Getting fondled by a woman is no less of a sexual act than being fondled by a man. I also hate it when they tell me to relax and move my knees apart. It just feels like, "Lie back, spread your legs really far apart and let me fuck you with this nice metal expanding dildo. (Note, btw, in the medical procedures that the doctor is supposed to touch my inner thigh before touching my anywhere else. The idea is to make it easier for me. Exactly why would I want somone lightly touching a major erogenous zone unless the purpose was to get me off?) If I had my druthers, and if it really needed to be done, I would have my husband do it. Then I could relax and let it be sexual. I wouldn't mind it if hubbby fondled anything he damn well wanted to fondle... He inserts things in there on a regular basis. He could be nice and gentle and I could even get turned on by it. OK, I know that I'm venting here but am I being that unreasonable?

08-21-2003, 07:11 PM	#3 (permalink)
galaxygirl Insane Location: NH	I'm with Jadzia on this one - cysts, fibriods and tumors can develop without any extrenal symptoms. The pap smear detects signs of cervical changes which can signal the development of cervical cancer. HPV is not the only cause of cervical cancer. For the last year I have had to have paps every 3 months because I had level III dysplaysia( the last step before cervical cancer), and had to have part of my cervix removed with laser surgery . If I had skipped my annual I would most likely have developed cancer by now. I feel as uncomfortable about breast exams as you do about pelvic exams, but I am very lax about doing them myself, and I am never sure just what it is I am feeling (besides the obvious) but I have the exams because I am rather fond of my breasts and I would hate to lose them. __________________ Drawing strength from His acceptance, offering all that I am and ever will be

08-21-2003, 09:23 PM	#6 (permalink)
cheerios Banned Location: 'bout 2 feet from my iMac	pelvic exams are NOT fun, but neither should they give you the feeling of being violated and raped. i think, mayhap, a change of docs would be a VERY good idea... I go to the health center at my school, and while it's no fun, i've never felt like the women with their fingers in my pussy were doing it for any other reason than that was their job and they were concerned for my ongoing health. With a LOT of cancer going back on both sides of my family, i have to echo galaxygirl with the sentiment that although the exams are a pain, i am fond of my body and would not like to lose part of it. edit: or, at least, lose a non-vital part. i'd rather go 1-boobed then w/o a stomach, like they're about to do to my grandpa. Last edited by cheerios; 08-21-2003 at 09:29 PM..

08-22-2003, 10:16 AM	#9 (permalink)
shannon Psycho Location: Canada	maybe i'm just a sheep here, but i always just figure find a doctor you really like and then trust them on it. i work as a cashier, and as bad an comparison as this may be, it always pisses me off when customers don't trust me on stuff. i understand why some might be hesitant, but it's my job, it's what i do anytime i'm not in school. i know my groceries. so, yeah, bad comparison. but i kinda figure it's the same type of thing. they go to school for such a long time and most have some experience clinically, and i figure they're just trying their best to keep me at tip top shape. my doctor right now is sooo kind and thourough in everything she does and i totally feel like she is looking out for me. but i understand that it may be hard to find a doctor that you can trust in that way. i wish you the best of luck. __________________ "When I look down I just miss all the good stuff. And when I look up I just trip over things"

08-22-2003, 11:41 AM	#10 (permalink)
collide Turn off your TV. Location: ... .- -. ..-. .-. .- -. -.-. .. ... -.-. --- --..-- -.-. .-	I don't know, I've never felt violated during any physical or medical examination. It just all seems so routine to me, and I tend to think that it's all for my own good and personal well-being, so getting regular check ups for anything is okay by me. My physicians never treat me like a lab experiment, so I guess that helps me feel more comfortable. Surprisingly, the only thing that makes me uncomfortable is when my gynecologist (a woman) asks me about my sex life, and I don't usually share those with anyone (despite posting on TFP on ocassion). __________________ "inhuman fiery goat worship" is an anagram for "information superhighway" -kingvolc

08-21-2003, 05:57 PM	#2 (permalink)
JadziaDax Loser Location: who the fuck cares?	All I will say is this: If it weren't for the annual pelvic exam, the cervical cyst that my doctor found could have become cancerous if left untreated. No, cervical cancer does NOT run in my family. No, I have never had any STD's or VD's or HIV etc... You may feel violated, you may feel that it's not necessary. But I assure you that there are hundreds of thousands of women who feel otherwise. There is nothing sexual about the exam. Exam procedures vary from doctor to doctor as well. If you were uncomfortable with your doctor, you should have found another one. I had gone for four years without going for my annual visit, and I got angry with myself for doing so. After hearing about friends of mine who were found to have breast cancer, uterine cancer, and ovarian cancer, I vowed to never miss another year again. It's your body, do what you want. But from my understanding, neither you nor your husband would be able to diagnose a cancerous cyst on your cervix. And these cysts can happen without being sexually active. You asked if you were being unreasonable. My answer is, "Yes, you are." Take the time to find a physician who you are comfortable with, one whom you can talk with about your concerns, fears, what makes you uncomfortable. There are good doctors out there.

08-22-2003, 08:57 AM	#8 (permalink)
Nikki ~~~~~~~ Location: Charleston, SC	I don't like it BUT I would have rather have a pelvic exam anyday then go to the DENTIST. I hate the dentist.

08-22-2003, 11:47 AM	#11 (permalink)
cheerios Banned Location: 'bout 2 feet from my iMac	LOL, yeah, I dread those questions "are you sleeping with more than one partner" lady, my answer to this question for 3 years now, has been no. so... no.

08-23-2003, 01:21 PM	#13 (permalink)
angela146 Loser Location: Somewhere near Hubby	Hi folks... I feel better now. Please read my journal, entry #19. It will be painful to read but I think it will be a good cathartic exercise. I would like Jadzia, Cheerios and Galaxygirl especially to read it. My thanks to you for replying so quickly and skillfully Thursday night. Thanks to the rest of you also who have contributed to this thread.

08-26-2003, 09:19 PM	#18 (permalink)
angela146 Loser Location: Somewhere near Hubby	Just so you all know, my issues are getting resolved... I'm going away in a few days to be alone with my husband and tell him about it. Having done that, I'm quite sure that he will make sure I do what I need to do... and get me through it... and help me get past something that should have been resolved years ago... Thank you all for being there... More info in my journal: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/journal...ournalid=27572 Entries 19, 20 and 23

06-22-2007, 01:59 PM	#20 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	What did women do centuries ago? They died of female cancers that went undetected. Cervical cancer is not the only female cancer that a woman needs to be concerned with, there is also Uterine and Ovarian (in case there happen to be be additional misguided women out there) It absolutely stupid in this day and age for a woman not to have her yearly exam....from the time that you start having sex until you die (pretty much) My great grandmother got ovarian cancer when she was 70 and died from it, my other great grandmother got breast cancer at 80 and died of it. \ Dont like your dr? go find another one, and another and another and another until you find one that you can deal with. No this is not something any woman enjoys, I dislike having to time having intercourse around it and then waiting a day or two to have it afterwards because Im sore. I dislike having to lay on that table and "scooch my butt to the end" I dislike realizing I didnt shave my legs completely and laying there with my feet in the stirrups realizing I have hairy knees...but you know what?.... I'd dislike being dead a whole lot more and Im sure my hubby and my daughter would too. Got an issue with a male dr? there are PLENTY of female doctors that do gyn exams, and guess what? THEIR hands are smaller lol Its what? an hour once a year (as long as the test comes back ok) to insure the well being of your body......why do you want to become a cancer death statistic? __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

06-22-2007, 05:27 PM	#22 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Hmmm...angela146 becomes a "loser", but angelana2 renews the same thread? Feeling violated from a pap? Sheesh, grow up. I doubt guys are thrilled about the "cough" test either. __________________ "You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

06-23-2007, 06:02 AM	#24 (permalink)
Lady Sage Mistress of Mayhem Location: Canton, Ohio	I love my doctor. She has saved my life twice so far. SInce my abnormal pap last month, she may indeed be saving my life again. Hell, we talk the whole time she is doing her peek and poke visit. First name basis, laugh and tell jokes, catch up on family situations. She even made me promise to bring in pictures from the wedding and honeymoon. You think a pap is bad, wait til you have a kid. Its a regular crotch carnival, especially delivery. Do whatever you wish, we can not talk you into doing otherwise. __________________ If only closed minds came with closed mouths. Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open. It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

08-02-2008, 05:50 AM	#26 (permalink)
Jinx123 Banned	I agree with the original poster, even five years after she posted. I admire her fortitude in going against the mainstream mode of thought and daring to question this age-old practice of female examination. I agree that if it wasn't for pelvic exams, some women would have serious health problems or even be dead. In those cases, the exam was a helpful, lifesaving tool. Most modern women don't realize the centuries of history involving examination of their genitals, and they were not all pleasant or with ethical treatment to say the least. Modern women also need to realize that just because one individual does not perceive the exam to be invasive does not mean that other women should feel this way. The history of gynecology is a seedy one; furthermore, this history is not common knowledge to the average woman. Couple that with individual sexual perceptions and experiences, and the by-product is a woman who feels adamant about exposing what is private and sacred to her to a total stranger. This is perfectly understandable. I feel violated, too, regarding this exam. To me, it is an event which has very, very socially-charged and sexually-charged mores that are expected to be left at the door in the name of good health. If you personally don't feel violated by this, that is fine, but then this discussion is not for you, either Last edited by Jinx123; 08-02-2008 at 05:52 AM..

08-02-2008, 07:15 AM	#27 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	If you feel "violated" then I would suggest getting another, and a female, doctor or PA. At my last exam, the conversation went something like this: She: Yep. The vaginal walls are thinning and there's some dryness. Me: Well, that's just because I'm not thinking good thoughts at the moment She: chuckle I truly doubt I could have that exchange with a male doctor. And because my doctor is older than me, she's been there, done that and understands the phases she's seen me in these last 15 years. If you go in with dread, you feed the dread. Some things have to be done and you shouldn't feel "violated" or fearful when doing them. We all have a personal obligation to our health and well being. A woman I once worked with had a baby and less than two years later, her "periods" wouldn't stop. After a few months of constantly bleeding, she went to the doctor (she too hated being examined) and was found to have a large fibroid tumor that had broken thru her uterine wall. Considering this occured in less than 2 years, what would have happened had she waited even longer? And, had she gone for her yearly, more than likely it would have been found before the damage was as extensive as it was.

08-02-2008, 07:40 AM	#28 (permalink)
Jinx123 Banned	Please, and I ask you respectfully and politely, do not tell me how I should and shouldn't feel: "You shouldn't feel violated." I'm not insisting that you should feel violated. I realize that not all women perceive this procedure to be invasive, and that is fine, but invalidating others' feelings is not constructive. Though the exam may have a greater purpose in spite of the unpleasantries, it still doesn't change the fact that some women are experiencing what they perceive to be invasiveness of their sexuality. Perhaps they were sexually abused -- even by a doctor. To them, the end justifying the means is highly questionable because the exam is causing as much or more damage as the disease itself.

08-02-2008, 07:53 AM	#29 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	You misread the intent. "You shouldn't feel violated" because, well, no doctor should do anything to make you feel that way, not as a dismissal of your emotions. "Shouldn't HAVE to feel" might have been better wording. If you or anyone else has been personally violated then that's an issue that needs to be dealt with. The vast majority of medical practioners don't see you as a sexual being-they're just doing their jobs to keep you healthy. Having trust in your medical practitioner is part of the process and if you don't have that trust, then you need to look elsewhere. I don't see it as anything sexual any more than I would see a mammogram or teeth cleaning as sexual. It's a process in health maintenance. This isn't 1908 when doctors used to think that orgasm would cure a woman's "hysteria" or that removing her reproductive organs would make her sane.

08-02-2008, 09:40 AM	#31 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	As a PA in training, I can tell you that we are especially trained in performing a pelvic exam differently than other parts of the physical exam. Whereas we practice other parts on fellow students, for the pelvic (and the uro-rectal-genital exam on males) we have special teaching assistants come in. They teach us not just the procedures necessary, but also how to treat our patients and show respect and care in our behavior and language. I can assure you that as a person who has both "chaperoned" for others giving the pelvic exam, and as someone who now must perform them, there is nothing sexual in our minds at all (this from someone who dabbles with females on occasion, so could possibly see them sexually). I can tell you that my male classmates feel just the same as I do - we want to make our patients comfortable, and do a good job so that we can catch any health issues before they become more complicated. That's it. Once you are trained as a medical professional, you view the body, well, differently. I think I see MORE beauty in the human form now than I did before, but that's because of my greater understanding of how the body works, and how it's put together. We're pretty neat, you know? But it is not a sexual thing. It couldn't be. In order to think clinically, there just isn't room for sexuality. Now, I am not saying there aren't bad practitioners out there who do cross those lines, and I hope we find every last one of them and completely destroy their reputations (since that is what typically matters to them)... but it is NOT the norm. If you are uncomfortable with your doctor or PA, then find a new one. You owe it to yourself and your health. __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

08-02-2008, 04:36 PM	#35 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	Sorry, but I will take what her university stats say over what she claims in a book. Fact is, she is not of the medical community, her main career is as a performance artist and her claims are, at best suspect. If I want to sell a book, I'm certainly not going to promote myself as someone who's just a writer with an opinion-I'm going to embellish, exagerate and promote. For anyone to take the musings of ONE person as fact is, quite honestly, ignorant. It is not educating oneself, it's finding one thing that agrees with what you think and calling it fact. But, that is, after all, your choice. Let's hope it's not a wrong one.

08-03-2008, 07:46 AM	#37 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	Perhaps, but I took the time to read about the author. By finding out about who writes what, you can be in a better position to make a decision about what to read and research. It's no different with finding a practitioner who can fill your needs. Research and trying to find out as much as you can allows you to make an informed decision regarding which direction to go.By researching the author, I am in a position to accept or reject what she writes. If all you have as your information is one book written by one layperson, your information is sorely limited. And when your information is limited, your choices suffer.

08-03-2008, 02:32 PM	#39 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	And yet you reject the very notion of annual exams based on the minority of incidental data. Had she chosen to write a book about the strides and advancements in women's health would you then accept or reject the data used? The point is we accept what we want to accept, and when it's a negative toward an issue, we embrace it more. But negative connotations, especially as they pertain to our own personal well being, hurts no one but our own selves. While you choose to be anti-progression and vigilant in pointing out the "horror stories", which are far outnumbered byt the advances, I choose to be pro and vigilant in my assurances that I am getting the best I can find. In my over half a century on this planet, I have yet to be "sexually violated", the victim of poor medical decisions or taken advantage of because of my status as a female.